Does anyone know a good resource that discusses in detail how the various flood myths found throughout the world relate to the Biblical Flood story?
This looks promising: http://www.amazon.com/Flood-Legends-Charles-Martin/dp/0890515530/
I, also, notice that this was in pre-pub: https://www.logos.com/product/40895/noah-the-real-story
If you're looking for primary sources, James Pritchard's Ancient Near Eastern Texts (ANET), a standard resource in ANE studies, includes English translations of some other flood narratives in the Akkadian Creation Epic, the Babylonian Atrahasis, etc. It doesn't have much in the way of discussion about the texts or how they compare to the Biblical story, though.
http://nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html includes bibliographyDundes, Alan (ed.) The Flood Myth, University of California Press, Berkeley, 1988
Thanks for the link. However, your hyperlink is adding an additional character at the end and took me to a 404 page.
However, it wasn't hard to fix:
http://nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html
Yes, there is, but unfortunatedly in Dutch: "De wereldwijde vloed" (the worldwide flood" written by Tjarko Evenboer.
He shows that the earliest history, tales and myhts are showing a striking similarity with what we can read in Genesis 1 - 11. One of the things he documents is that you can track back through history Sem, Cham and Jafet: Babelonians ans Sumerians, Chinese, Indians (india), indians (pre USA), Africans, Egyptians, Aboriginals and Maori, peoples of Northern Europe.
A very interesting book. This is a related article written by the same author in English:
http://www.dewereldwijdevloed.nl/artikelen/Publicatie_JOC25(1)_Amerindians.pdf
I would order that if Logos were to commission a translation of it into English and put it in pre-pub, which they've begun to do with some works.
Interesting! Thank you for pointing me to this "new approach"
Yes, there is, but unfortunatedly in Dutch: "De wereldwijde vloed" (the worldwide flood" written by Tjarko Evenboer. I would order that if Logos were to commission a translation of it into English and put it in pre-pub, which they've begun to do with some works.
[Y][Y] Yes, I would place an order too!
I found this book on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Parallel-Myths-J-F-Bierlein/dp/0345381467/
Not exactly what I'm looking for, but looking at the table of contents I see a chapter on Flood Myths that looks very interesting.
Beware the Paraiba Stone.
ISBE 1915 covers it pretty nicely. Although I would guess you are looking for more..
-dan
This is not from a Christian website, but it's still interesting.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
Josh. You use both the word "myth" and "story" in the same sentence. Are you suggesting there's a difference between them?
There are a ton of resources that relate to your question. Could you be much more specific please?
Josh. You use both the word "myth" and "story" in the same sentence. Are you suggesting there's a difference between them? There are a ton of resources that relate to your question. Could you be much more specific please?
A myth is a story, but not all stories are myths. However, I wasn't trying to say the Genesis flood story isn't a myth. I have no problems with calling the Genesis flood story a myth - because it is. This doesn't mean its not true though.
Let me be as specific as possible. I read Genesis 1 -11 as real and literal history. As such, I believe that there was an actual global flood and that there was a real person named Noah. I find it very interesting that many cultures throughout the world have traditional flood myths that have parallels to the Genesis flood story. I see this as evidence that there truly was a global flood. However, I believe the Genesis account is the "pure" inerrant version.
I'm looking for a book that has solid research that can support this belief.
ISBE 1915 covers it pretty nicely. Although I would guess you are looking for more.. -dan
Thanks. Yes, I'm looking for more, but this was helpful. Took me a while to figure out it was listed under "deluge" and not "flood".
I believe the Genesis account is the "pure" inerrant version. I'm looking for a book that has solid research that can support this belief.
I believe the Genesis account is the "pure" inerrant version.
This is incongruous. There is a book that can support your "belief". It's called the Bible. No other book could ever "support" that "belief"...and if you believe it, you shouldn't need any support, because you CAN'T credibly believe it unless you already have the support you require. Any variation in that structure is invalid.
Yes...I get it. Maybe I should have used a better word other than "support". I'm looking for help "defending" my belief. What do you think about Christian Apologetics?
omitted
I'm looking for a book that has solid research that can support this belief. If you know basic comparative mythology or folklore as a discipline, you would know what you are looking for is a book of pseudo-science garbage. The stories do not come with dates and the "entire world being flooded" normally refers to the entire world of the people telling the story. If you wish to actually find solid research to support the factually of a world flood, you need to look to geology which has world-wide reach and a modicum of date-ability. I personally find the myths and folklore more interesting - and actually know much more about them but feel obligated to point out that you're headed a direction that bears no fruit except to the gullible.
If you know basic comparative mythology or folklore as a discipline, you would know what you are looking for is a book of pseudo-science garbage. The stories do not come with dates and the "entire world being flooded" normally refers to the entire world of the people telling the story. If you wish to actually find solid research to support the factually of a world flood, you need to look to geology which has world-wide reach and a modicum of date-ability. I personally find the myths and folklore more interesting - and actually know much more about them but feel obligated to point out that you're headed a direction that bears no fruit except to the gullible.
I'm getting the impression that my favorite commentary on Genesis is probably not the same as yours! [:D]
I have investigated other disciplines (such as geology) as well. I'm looking into mythology as only "one of many" areas of justification for my belief. I was able to find quite an interesting article: http://www.icr.org/article/7863/
I see this as evidence that there truly was a global flood. It is only evidence that most peoples of the world have experienced severe flooding. One may be able to link certain related tales together to a common source and hence a common flood but that is uncommon and extremely regional. To claim that they all relate the same flood is what is known in the field as shovel-science. (We all know what one shovels, right?)
I see this as evidence that there truly was a global flood.
It is only evidence that most peoples of the world have experienced severe flooding. One may be able to link certain related tales together to a common source and hence a common flood but that is uncommon and extremely regional. To claim that they all relate the same flood is what is known in the field as shovel-science. (We all know what one shovels, right?)
I was able to find an interesting comment by Charles Martin (the author of Flood Legends in my OP).
"One of the most fascinating commonalities is the idea that the vessel contained eight people. Obviously, the Biblical version tells us that eight survived, but the Karina people in North America (part of an indigenous Carribbean tribe) tells us that "four couples" survived. That, of course, is eight people. Meanwhile, halfway around the world in India, the Hindu story of Manu and the Flood tells us that Manu and seven sages survive the ordeal. Three cultures separated by thousands of miles - and each vastly different from the other - all believe eight people survived a Flood. Proof that the Flood was global? No, but it's pretty hard to "rationally" explain away"
Such parallelism would tell me that these myths are detailing the same flood. What do you think?
I was able to find quite an interesting article: http://www.icr.org/article/7863/ Let's just say that my fundamentalist father was originally supportive of this site. However, he came to view it as an excellent example of shovel-science and engaged in a multi-year written debate with Morris.
I was able to find quite an interesting article: http://www.icr.org/article/7863/
Let's just say that my fundamentalist father was originally supportive of this site. However, he came to view it as an excellent example of shovel-science and engaged in a multi-year written debate with Morris.
What a second. Weren't you the one that was just talking about faulty logic? Are you implying that this article is most likely invaild because of this past experience with this organization and its founder?
I sure hope we're not implying Jesus isn't buried in a little villiage in northern Japan (an exciting conversation I had with my spouse last night). The amount of proof is quite amazing ... the common words between Japanese and hebrew. The dating of when he arrived. What's even more amazing is that his travel through China is so well documented.
I only point this conversation out to demonstrate how non-Christians really love this stuff.
But there is a guy here in Sedona (whose first name is Guy) and publishes a young-earth scientific paper maybe every 6 months or so and distributes it to all the Sedonians for free. It's quite well written/supported. But unfortunately it gets its heft from somewhat loose logic. Like our villiage in Japan.
What do you think about Christian Apologetics?
I think it's great for them to man-up and admit that they are wrong.
Does anyone know a good resource that discusses in detail how the various flood myths found throughout the world relate to the Biblical Flood story? This looks promising: http://www.amazon.com/Flood-Legends-Charles-Martin/dp/0890515530/ I, also, notice that this was in pre-pub: https://www.logos.com/product/40895/noah-the-real-story
See the article of Walton in Dict. of the Pentateuch (IVP). And also the Lexham Bible Guide on Genesis for a helpful introduction into the area (Flood re ANE traditions).
Hans
Let's see, 3 cultures out of at least 500 share the same number of survivors. How many have just one survive? two? three? In fact is 3 cultures even as high as one would expect by chance?.... In the cultures that have 8 people survive, in how many of them is the 8 the result of significant symbolic numbers? 1-4-7 ... And what do you make of the Hindu version being all male survivors? And that Manu and the seven sages appear in many tales - and in the flood tale were rescued by an avatar of Vishnu in the form of a great fish? Or that Manu is the Hindu equivalent of Adam, the progenitor of mankind? And did I mention that the saptarṣi rarely refer to humans? So what does it tell me? Someone is cherry-picking details out of context to build a great evening's entertainment. An that someone probably has little understanding of probability - or Hindu mythology.
Let's see, 3 cultures out of at least 500 share the same number of survivors. How many have just one survive? two? three? In fact is 3 cultures even as high as one would expect by chance?.... In the cultures that have 8 people survive, in how many of them is the 8 the result of significant symbolic numbers? 1-4-7 ... And what do you make of the Hindu version being all male survivors? And that Manu and the seven sages appear in many tales - and in the flood tale were rescued by an avatar of Vishnu in the form of a great fish? Or that Manu is the Hindu equivalent of Adam, the progenitor of mankind? And did I mention that the saptarṣi rarely refer to humans?
So what does it tell me? Someone is cherry-picking details out of context to build a great evening's entertainment. An that someone probably has little understanding of probability - or Hindu mythology.
Let me do some research and get back to you. It appears you have an ax to grind concerning young Earth creationism. We both have our own personal biases on this matter. Thanks for your contribution to this thread. However, until I do more digging - I'm afraid I am still in the same boat (pun intended!) as when I posted my OP.
I have said nothing about young earth creationism. I have said nothing about my beliefs regarding a global flood. I even directed you to a reasonable source for evidence. I have a big ax to grind on the misuse of mythology and/or logic ... If you believe I was using any other ax, please show me where.
Its not very hard to read between the lines. However, maybe I am mistaken.
Josh, I think part of the issue here is the difference between evidence and proof. Lots of things can constitute evidence without rising to the level of being proof. There are other possible explanations for the flood stories beside the one you are considering. That said, the fact that other possible explanations exist doesn't mean that they are "true" and your option is not. It may be that the variety of flood stories worldwide have some connection to the Noah story, or maybe some do, and some have other sources or explanations.
One thing to remember is that almost everything is evidence of something. Another thing to remember is that it is absurdly easy to draw the wrong conclusion about any given "evidence". Simply having an idea of what you think the "conclusion" is supposed to be causes all manner of things that have any sort of connection whatsoever appear to be "proof"...when it is nothing of the sort. This phenomenon (and others) are partially to blame for the variations in religious belief. People are constantly convincing themselves that this or that has been "proved" when the thing in question isn't remotely true. Most religious belief, if closely examined, can be explained as a function of psychological and perceptual glitches common to humans, such as optical and perceptual illusions, optimism biases, cognitive traps, and the like. These things affect virtually everyone and even when one is cognizant of the influence such things can have, that doesn't necessarily cancel out the effect. On the other hand, not being aware of these things means that they can have their effects without even tripping awareness alarms.
Add to this the situation I have addressed in other threads--that YHWH has stated explicitly that He has deliberately introduced disinformation and misinformation into the mix--and it becomes hideously easy to draw false conclusions about important concerns.
And I wouldn't rely too heavily on the Holy Spirit to keep you out of the weeds...that is precisely what the guy is doing who thinks you are wrong about most of what you believe, and he isn't right about anything, is he?
Well said David Paul or as my grandfather would have put it "always believe that there is more to learn, some of which will modify your current beliefs"
I'm not looking for evidence to prove a global flood. I already believe in a global flood. I believe that Genesis chapters 1 through 11 are historically accurate based on my theological convictions (aka my faith). As such, my interpretation of the evidence will be filtered through this worldview. This is no different than when an ontological naturalist interprets the evidence. You cannot escape your philosophical foundations.
However, this doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to rationally decipher the world around us. It just boils down to what we personally feel is the most convincing interpretation of the evidence in concert with our beliefs.
I started this thread because I want to further investigate the claim that some of the worldwide flood myths can be traced back to the Genesis flood event. I may or may not be convinced at the end of my journey. However, if I find that this particular interpretation of the evidence is strong, I may want to incorporate it into my Christian apologetics arsenal.
I found this article in one of my Logos resources:
I agree with MJ (probably accidentally). I remember clearly the day I was sitting in an evidences class in Bible college. The professor was well read, a good speaker, and didn't go off into speculations of similarity. But he did use an argument I could see was invalid. That, combined with an egotism that pervades Christianity, was the end for me. It was about 3pm in the afternoon. That was the last time I opened a Bible.
It was over 30 years later that I 're-started'. The pastor's arguments started with 'there are many views', continued with 'it's hard to know' and finished with 'this is what I think'. That was enough for me.
As can obviously be observed on this forum, I remain sceptical; I check everything (thank you Logos!). And I remain angry at that professor. Arguments are not 'worldviews'. They change people.
For me, Denise, it was my 7th grade Pentecostal science teacher (yes, I know...who knew that such a creature even existed?). It was a private secular school, but there she was--floor length skirts, top knot, the whole nine yards. My mother, who doesn't have a religious bone in her body, had given me a Children's Living Bible for Christmas a year or two earlier. I read it up to Leviticus 1, where like a lot of people I got bogged down in the sacrifices. No matter...I just used the illustrated plates to skip ahead and found the well-known stories of Jonah, Daniel in the lion's den, and David and Goliath. And I read the gospels, too. The thing that really resonated for me was the Ten Commandments. I knew that I was reading the mind of God.
But there are other influences in a kid's life. Television, books, and...7th grade Pentecostal science teachers. One day, out of the blue, she said, "You can't believe in evolution and the Bible." Well, evolution seemed like such a certain thing for me back then...so I never picked up that Bible again. Over the next few years, I teetered back and forth between agnosticism and atheism...that is, right through the years of high school and right into college. Lucky me...I really could have used a bit of direction. Without getting into details, YHWH reached out when I was 22 and tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Remember Me." (No, I didn't hear a voice...and no, it wasn't a question, any more than the fourth commandment is a question when it says, "Remember the Sabbath day...".)
I used to have a bit of resentment for that science teacher, Denise, but I am fully convinced that her gaffe and my time outside the sheepfold was simply part of His plan. I'll be honest...I wish it had worked out a different way. But I realize He allowed it for a reason. I doubt I would be where I am without the experiences I had. Most people would look at where I am at my age and either laugh or cry and say, "You aren't anywhere at all!" But He has blessed me beyond anything I could ask or imagine through something called Logos Bible Software. It was right after I took a class in Hebrew that He flipped a switch about five years ago and started opening my eyes...and not coincidentally that was the last time I was employed in a position that required my Masters degree. Since that time I have either been unemployed or absurdly underemployed, making about 1/4 to 1/3 of what the government considers to be the official poverty line. Be that as it is, I am the richest person on the planet, because I have L3, my L3 notes, and my monthly payment to Logos always gets paid.
That science teacher will never be my favorite person, but she played the role in my life she was intended for...and I'm okay with that.
@ MJ, Denise, David Paul
Anecdotes and personal reactions can cut many ways, and aren't necessarily better evidence or indicators of anything than the myths Josh wants to explore. If we are to aid in Josh's search, let's stick to Logos resources before emotions run high.
Go for it, Lee! Lead the band.
Find Josh some resources to support his worldview.
Not being particularly acquainted with this topic, I wouldn't want to flood this thread further.I recall that The Genesis Record by Morris (ICR founder) had some mention about the topic, which was far from exhaustive.
A search on the web washes up sites like http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html and http://www.icr.org/article/why-does-nearly-every-culture-have-tradition-globa and http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n2/flood-legends
I've made this point a few times in the past, but the way I attempt to prove my view of Scripture is to attempt to prove it wrong...not by finding someone else who agrees with me. I give the other view(s) as many opportunities to derail my perspective as they can manage, at least until they become pointlessly repetitive. If they can take a 1000 swings and 1000 shots without hitting or touching my view, I start thinking I may be on the right track. Of course, if they do make contact, I make adjustments and start the process anew.
Anecdotes and personal reactions can cut many ways, and aren't necessarily better evidence or indicators of anything than the myths
Narrative is can be an effective communication tool, reaching people in ways logic does not. But I agree that it is time to drop the topic. Sorry I got carried away. One of my two papers in lieu of a Master's thesis was on folktales/myths (the other on linguistics) so its a topic a love and care about.
Add to this the situation I have addressed in other threads--that YHWH has stated explicitly that He has deliberately introduced disinformation and misinformation into the mix--and it becomes hideously easy to draw false conclusions about important concerns. And I wouldn't rely too heavily on the Holy Spirit to keep you out of the weeds...that is precisely what the guy is doing who thinks you are wrong about most of what you believe, and he isn't right about anything, is he?
David, you and I exchanged views on this matter in another thread, a thread that strayed far from forum guideline expectations, so I will limit my reaction to your words that I have quoted above to this: Wow. Especially to the part about not relying on the Holy Spirit to lead out of the weeds. Really wow.... Wow.
You have no idea how "wow" it really is. Enjoy your Ishtar...er, I mean Easter. Say "hello" to the Spirit for me.
@ MJ, Denise, David Paul Anecdotes and personal reactions can cut many ways, and aren't necessarily better evidence or indicators of anything than the myths Josh wants to explore. If we are to aid in Josh's search, let's stick to Logos resources before emotions run high.
I can't tell you how disappointing I am with this thread. I posted a legitimate question and was expecting some friendly suggestions. This is not what I got. Milkman had asked early on if I could be more specific about what I was asking for, I probably said too much. That unleashed a flood of pretentious comments. Like I said before, its not hard to read between the lines.
Josh here is a website that might be of help to you: http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html
Like I said before, its not hard to read between the lines.
Unfortunately, you read between my lines incorrectly. Please remember that I did offer recommendations that met your needs and became
pretentious
also try this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Flood-Legends-Charles-Martin/dp/0890515530
I agree with MJ (probably accidentally).
Or remember a shared background firmly planted in Hume and the British empiricists i.e Campbell and the Restoration movement.[;)]
Like I said before, its not hard to read between the lines. Unfortunately, you read between my lines incorrectly. Please remember that I did offer recommendations that met your needs and became pretentious only when you indicated that you would abuse the material. Had I known up front your intended use of the material, I would have offered no resources. I will try to remember not to offer resources or suggestions to you in the future. No problem. No ill will.
I'm not sure what I ever did to you, but it would be nice if you would stop being so haughty towards me.
Apparently, I am not allowed to ask for recommendations on resources that I believe might bolster my current beliefs. I am not ashamed of my beliefs and I only elaborated on them because I was asked too. However, I felt that you just wanted to be disparaging towards me instead of actually provide any real help.
