Bible Sense Lexicon
I have read with interest Morris Proctor's post describing the use of the Bible Sense Lexicon. I do not have the Gold Base Package, as my budget will not accommodate the cost, however, surely using the Exegetical Guide serves the same purpose, using the Bible Word Study? The circular graphic lists each different translation of the Greek or Hebrew word, and by clicking on the colored section, a list of the Bible references where that translation is used, pops up. It seems to me that this is much more convenient than all the steps Morris uses for the same objective. I suspect that the only real advantage of the Bible Sense Lexicon is that the information can be exported in a spreadsheet. Any comments from those who know better than I?
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Hi Paul
Paul Grieve said:The circular graphic lists each different translation of the Greek or Hebrew word, and by clicking on the colored section, a list of the Bible references where that translation is used, pops up
True - but this doesn't give the "sense" of the word.
Taking the example which Morris uses "complete" then the BWS shows that the underlying word is translated 5 different ways in the LEB
The search which Morris does shows that the word takes on the following senses:
So it is providing an extra level of insight than simply the translation (assuming that all the tagging is correct but that's a different matter!)
Does that make sense?
Graham
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The Bible Sense Lexicon is a work in progress i.e. it was originally only populated with nouns. It provides a different type of data than translation wheels and lexicons. The best way to learn the concepts behind the Bible Sense Lexicon is to explore Visuword http://www.visuwords.com/
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks a lot, Graham. Yes, that does make sense, yet I'm not sure that it adds a great deal to what you get from the Word Study plus the use of good lexicons. I suspect that one would need to have the experience of it to appreciate the value!
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Thanks to you, too, MJ. I hadn't heard of Visuwords. Looks interesting!
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Paul ... one of the joys of old hardware stores (and antique stores for us ladies) is finding a tool, and then trying to come up with a use.
I've yet to see an answer to your question. Just now I looked up 'house'. Anyone with at least 500 hours of Bible-flying time knows all about 'house'.
But not the BSL display (using Heb 8.8).
In other instances, the OL pieces are all mixed up (I guess with the assumption that Bible writers picked and chose among languages as needed).
But not to be disappointed with so many tourists in Israel looking for the house of Judah. Not to be confused with the Kingdom of Heaven (Mat 3.2) classified by its geographical sense.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise, play with Visuword a bit to see the purpose and usefulness of the Bible Sense Lexicon. I'll grant you easily that it is a work in progress but linguistically it is a very powerful tool with information not available elsewhere.
I swear that on the half-glass test you would see impending drought and I would see potential flooding. [;)] You've got to move out of the desert - perhaps, join us in the rainy Pacific Northwest.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ ... we're yanking at a problem from differing directions (and by the way, there are way too many Washington tags down here; we're drowning in them!).
My criticism is from a religious standpoint; not a linguistic one. Let me demonstrate with several statements.
A BSL should be different between a protestant and a Catholic (I'm over-generalizing but just demonstrating). Same words, differing senses. Differing linkages to other words. It's a big reason why they don't communicate well.
A BSL should be different between a Caesarian (Christian from the Roman empire), and a Parthian Christian. Same words (however translated), completely differing senses. So much so that the east could accept the Nicene Creed but not change its own creed.
A BSL should be different between two pastors. This is easiest to demonstrate, by simply having pastor 'A' explain what pastor 'B' just said. With pastor 'B' standing there. Very quickly pastor 'A' begins shuffling the 'sense' and pastor 'B' starts smiling.
That's why the Apostle Paul so adeptly used the LXX and successfully, while todays Protestants turn their noses up at it. Same language; sense not desired.
You say it's a developing work; I say they should start over with the right-hand side of the BSL. Most easily, simply create a network of semantic meaning structures from Swanson (which I think, a multi-dimensional network, you already agreed was needed).
So, yes I see a glass half-full ... and the Washingtonians drowning in thirst.
Now, you'll probably argue that my points are not what BSL was meant for (though that IS how Logos markets it). If so, I remain disappointed! A tracable network of semitic sense structures overlaying a greek sense structure would have been SOOOO unbelievably useful. Especially given that 2nd Temple jewish writers argued the greeks got their sense from the hebrew.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
you'll probably argue that my points are not what BSL was meant for
You're getting to know me only too well. [:D] The intent of the BSL should be to reflect the relationship between words to the author not to the reader. And reflect the plain meaning which should be the same for all well-intended readers. It's the interpretation and the overlays with presuppositions and biases that mess it all up. I agree that there are a number of problems with the initial cut and I'll agree that your suggestion as to a base to build from is solid.
And, yes, my son's in-laws are in Sedona ... but they weren't from the NW, they only spent a couple of decades here.[:P] Mind you, I grew up on the dry side of the mountains i.e. high desert country.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Well, it'll be interesting to see it's development (I think unique to Logos and a good reason to have Logos).
Hope your son-in-laws have fun. Strange as it may seem, my Dad (before his Abilene days) homesteaded east-ish (Lewiston) of where I understand you were . Hot, hot, hot.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I agree that the BSL is a work in progress, and does involve interpretation that may or may not agree with everyone's sense of what the text in question means. However, it is a very good starting point for our own investigation. Below is an example of the Greek lemma nomos used in Romans. The Bible Word Study only shows the translation of the word in the ESV as law. However a search using the analysis view shows several different Bible Sense terms attempting to assist in what Paul meant each time he used the word in Romans. This should be a starting point for our own study with the understanding that Paul used the same word in different contexts and as such the word may have different meanings depending upon the context.
True we can discuss what the BSL cannot do, but I think it many cases it can add value to our studies as long as we realize that it is still a starting point for us to gain further understanding of God's Word.
I think you can purchase the minimum upgrade to get the BSL without having to go to Gold. I purchased silver and the minimum upgrade was less than $10.
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John, thanks for your helpful response. You've captured well one of the primary reasons we created the BSL: to make it easier to access meaning (lexical semantics) in the text, even for those with only limited ability in the original languages. Seconding MJ's point: we've analyzed the author's meanings at the word level, as opposed to the different perspectives of those who apply those words in different theological contexts (that's their job more than ours).
A Bible translation has to accomplish several goals:
- fidelity to the original language expression in a given context
- choosing words that are understandable to English readers (ESV prefers "propitiation", other translations avoid this unfamiliar word)
- avoiding unintentional semantic associations (this is why "charity" is no longer a good translation of ἀγάπη (agapē) for modern readers, though it may have been okay in 1611)
- producing a readable English sentence as a result
I don't want to sidetrack the discussion into the challenges and philosophy of Bible translation. But producing a translation involves lots of compromises (especially #4). Since the BSL does not have the same constraints, we can provide much more information about the meanings of the words in the text.
If you have the BSL and haven't looked at it recently, you should look again: the current version covers noun, verb, adjective, and adverb senses. It also catalogs many helpful phrases that express a specific sense. Building on Denise's example, if you look up οἶκος in BWS you can see seven distinct senses associated with that word. That includes the BSL phrase οἶκος θεοῦ which expresses the sense of church understood as God's family (there's a display bug, so the space between the two words is missing: but if you hover over them you'll see the difference). So there is much more to the BSL than simply organizing search results (and more in the works).
By the way, to see concrete examples of the useful of the BSL, you should look at the daily "Sense of the Day" (SOTD) blog posts at the Logos Academic blog (http://academic.logos.com/category/sotd, or follow @AcademicLogos and watch #SenseOTD). We'd love to hear how these posts help users get more value out the Bible Sense Lexicon.
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Sean Boisen said:
By the way, to see concrete examples of the useful of the BSL, you should look at the daily "Sense of the Day" (SOTD) blog posts at the Logos Academic blog (http://academic.logos.com/category/sotd,
Here's a blog I'd look for on the home page - where's the option?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I think this came up elswehere already: Someone decided we may either read the Academic Blog or use Verbum. Yeah.MJ. Smith said:Sean Boisen said:By the way, to see concrete examples of the useful of the BSL, you should look at the daily "Sense of the Day" (SOTD) blog posts at the Logos Academic blog (http://academic.logos.com/category/sotd,
Here's a blog I'd look for on the home page - where's the option?
Have joy in the Lord!
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I have an option for the Logos Academic Blog on the Home Page settings (which today includes the Sense of the Day post for "disciple"). Isn't this available for other users?
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I'm deprived[:'(]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Likewise, and in my case it is presumably also because I am using Verbum.MJ. Smith said:I'm deprived
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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If it makes anyone feel better, I'm a Catholic academic who's written a number of the Sense of the Day posts [:D]
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Jeremy Thompson said:
I'm a Catholic academic who's written a number of the Sense of the Day posts
You clearly should be posting on the Verbum academic blog,
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I'm not seeing an option for the Logos Academic Blog. Neither have I had the benefit of viewing Jeremy's post's.
Blah ... I'm missing out ...
[:S]
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MJ. Smith said:Jeremy Thompson said:
I'm a Catholic academic who's written a number of the Sense of the Day posts
You clearly should be posting on the Verbum academic blog,
It took me a couple moments to realize that you're joking.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Sean, you're cracking me up on that Logos joy-juice you serve for free. " .... we've analyzed the author's meaning at the word level ...'. Have you been getting help from David Paul, our star authorial meaning expert?
I've no doubt the BSL is meant for the amateur ... I'm just afraid to ask what you think is supposed to happen next.
I would argue that you could have simply slid the 'sense' gloss into the 'gloss gloss' and called it a day.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Steve said:
I'm not seeing an option for the Logos Academic Blog. Neither have I had the benefit of viewing Jeremy's post's.
Blah ... I'm missing out ...
While i'd rather have them on the Home Page too, for all users (i've reported this problem), you can still view them in a web browser: see http://academic.logos.com/category/sotd/ for the whole list.
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Denise said:
Sean, you're cracking me up on that Logos joy-juice you serve for free. " .... we've analyzed the author's meaning at the word level ...'. Have you been getting help from David Paul, our star authorial meaning expert?
I've no doubt the BSL is meant for the amateur ... I'm just afraid to ask what you think is supposed to happen next.
I would argue that you could have simply slid the 'sense' gloss into the 'gloss gloss' and called it a day.
There's long tradition in biblical lexicography of listing glosses and treating them as though they were "meaning". (Louw-Nida's Greek-English Lexicon of New Testament is a significant exception, though it has its own deficiencies.) But glosses and senses are not the same. A gloss doesn't define the word, nor does it relate one sense to others. It also doesn't help you understand the range of choices the author had.
When i said " .... we've analyzed the author's meaning at the word level ...", that's exactly what i meant. We had a team of 3 people with graduate-level training in biblical languages look at all the relevant biblical lexicons, as well as the structure and content of the most ambitious lexicography project ever (the English WordNet Project). They also did a significant amount of their own innovation in structuring the lexicon across Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek to line up senses where they were compatible, and (just as hard) to leave them distinct when appropriate. That's just the lexicon: then they had to read the entire text and annotate each content word with its appropriate sense in context.
I'm very proud of the work they've done, which took more than two years to complete. The resource they produced is not only an important product for Logos, it's a milestone contribution to the field of biblical studies, and a unique resource for studying biblical meaning (Louw-Nida's lexicon and the still incomplete Semantic Dictionary of Biblical Hebrew are the only things that are even close). The slides from one of our presentations at last November's Society of Biblical Literature meeting are here. They're not complete without the audio, but they will provide a deeper understanding of what makes the Bible Sense Lexicon unique.
The BSL is a new kind of lexical resource, so we're still working to help people understand what it is, why they need it, and how to use it. But to think of it as just another kind of gloss is to really miss out on all that it has to offer.
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http://community.logos.com/forums/p/565/5225.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/27679/210611.aspx
See Sean, I've been pushing BSL for "like forever" ... but you've done a much better job of explaining why it is needed.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sean, you're singing to the choir and the voices are beautiful. Logos voices. That's your market, best measured looking at your most popular authors. So I wish you the best.
But even the late second century authors weren't so confident as you on the meanings (indeed even cogitating on multiple possibilities). Imagine if two thousand years of theologians, priests and a few random monks had access to your discovery of the author's meaning!! Would it not have saved all these millions the wasted years?
My point, and I'll say it again, is that religious writers don't have 'plain sense' (as MJ was smarter to describe it as). That's why I used the earlier example of two pastors: they talk a religious language ... not one you're necessarily privy to (nor I).
That's why your use of 'semantics' would have been much more fruitful constructing a multi-dimensional semantic network a la Swanson or similar and language/culture specific. Not a 'single meaning' for Logos users who (I guess) can't simply use their Strongs, BDAG, and best of all, your BWS tool.
But my vote is for MJ as the better explanatator (since realistically your tool is linked to linquistics; not religious authorial shading).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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This is fixed now; sorry for the delay.
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Look at that! I checked only minutes ago, and was just on my way to remind you.[:)]
Now, can we have the Anglican blog as well, please.[:D]
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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