Announcing New Logos Video Tools: Learn Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos
Comments
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I see we have made it to "Under Development" status. Awesome! [H]
"But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry." 2 Timothy 4:5 (NASB)
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I've posted on the forums before, so I hope this goes in the right place!
The way to correctly frame what the courses are about is to firmly grasp that their goal is not to produce people who can translate Greek or Hebrew, but to give people the ability to UNDERSTAND and EVALUATE. Briefly, our goals with the video tools are (1) to inform people how to understand grammatical and lexical discussions in commentaries, articles, sermons, etc. with respect to Greek and Hebrew; and (2) to be able to use Hebrew and Greek tools with enough proficiency that they can evaluate what they've read or heard in a commentary. Frankly, with enough practice, I'd hope people could feel confident to answer questions that commentaries avoid or don't devote much attention to (we've all had that frustration with commentaries). Achieving these goals doesn't require memorizing vocabulary or forms. You could even go without the alphabets, but we recommend them in the videos since the alphabet makes a few more tools accessible.
I should probably relate a bit of my own experience so you understand this rationale. I actually had Greek syntax three times in my classroom career - once as an undergrad and twice in two different seminaries. I never got to anything that resembled what goes on in a good commentary. We spent a lot of time in syntax courses wondering if that genitive was objective or subjective, and whether this aorist was gnomic or something else. It was like filing paperwork. No syntax teacher I ever had asked or answered the simple questions -- the questions everyone in the room wanted to discuss: So, how would I use that syntax observation/decision in a sermon? Where did the observation/decision take me in terms of meaning? Does it affect how I think theologically? It wasn't that my syntax teachers weren't good scholars or teachers. They just had to get through the notes or the textbook. We're not interested in having people memorize the 16 (or 18 or 30+ or whatever) uses of the genitive case, depending on the book. While there is something to be said for knowing that many nuances of the genitive exist, how that knowledge can be used homiletically is not self evident (i.e., it doesn't derive from knowing the grocery list). What most pastors-in-training (and in real ministry) want from their language courses is to have a real feel for why Greek and Hebrew is valuable for preaching. They don't see the point with producing their own English translation since they have many good ones. They won't be writing a commentary. They just want insights into the text that they can transmit to their congregations. They want to feel secure that what they are saying over the pulpit is rooted in the text. The traditional Greek and Hebrew classes one takes in the first and second year of seminary just don't do this well, if at all. Yes, you would likely get to that good stuff beyond the second year, but many pastors-in-training cease their language training after second year since the required courses are under their belt. Since they really haven't seen much payoff after two years of investment (and with some, suffering), the motivation to use up electives somewhere else is powerful. This failure to demonstrate usefulness at the first and second year level is why many seminary students opt for two year programs without language coursework (and therefore why seminaries create those programs). Those programs and students are the target of these video tools (as well as pastors who want a langauge refresher or who hope they get what they really wanted this time around). However, we hope that putting the payoff up front -- showing users that Greek and Hebrew can really put meat into a sermon -- will stimulate more people to jump into traditional courses with all their memorization.0 -
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Michael,
Thanks for the detailed explanation; that's just exactly what I'm looking for...I look forward to this series..
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Thomas Black said:WilliamBingham said:
I realize there is the payment plan?? but that option really upsets me. I just don't understand how administrative fees of 5.00 per month are actually needed. That seems steep.
It appears steep? Really?
Perhaps it appears steep if you're spreading a small purchase over 3-6 months
Yes, It is steep. Even steeper to drag the 160 out to 12 months. (if its even possible)
Thomas Black said:Even with 750,000 some odd users, Logos is a small company by global standards. To make it "worse" only a small percentage of that group buy more books once they get their collection. Of that group, only a small percentage take advantage of the pricing plan. Granted: I don't KNOW what the real numbers are - I'm guessing based upon what I've read and understood from other semi-related threads and correspondence.
I would think more than a small percentage would add books as new books come out but maybe not.
Thomas Black said:But that translates into Logos, who is not a bank and not a financier having to hire a person or dedicate a person to making sure all of this internal billing, paperwork, follow through (and what happens to "bad debts"?) is taken care of for them. This convenience for users like me who have (and are) using the payment program translates into someone who needs to eat and pay his or her bills, and thus requires a paycheck every week from Logos. So while it may not cost $5 for a printout with your name on it, that person reading, filling, manipulating and working with the information in that printout needs to eat. Beyond that, I'll almost guarantee that $5 is much less than what a credit card would cost you.
Well, using this in-house buying option produces "bad debt". Maybe just remove the option altogether. As I have thought about it more and performed some mathematical calculations I believe that removal of this option is the most stewardly thing to do with the Lord's money.
Maybe I am thinking too much about the NO DEBT except the house kind of christians. That would prevent sales as was attested to before the program was available.
Win in worldly things but lose in spiritual things. We have enough debt to God let alone other people.
William
P.S. The Lord did provide.I forgot to ask for a weekly paycheck from one job and I just happened to find some stashed money. I do stash money and "forget it." Like Ron Popeal says set it and forget it. [:D]
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William, Praise God you found the the funds!
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
MichaelSHeiser said:
The way to correctly frame what the courses are about is to firmly grasp that their goal is not to produce people who can translate Greek or Hebrew, but to give people the ability to UNDERSTAND and EVALUATE. Briefly, our goals with the video tools are (1) to inform people how to understand grammatical and lexical discussions in commentaries, articles, sermons, etc. with respect to Greek and Hebrew; and (2) to be able to use Hebrew and Greek tools with enough proficiency that they can evaluate what they've read or heard in a commentary.
Dr. Heiser,
Thank you for producing this. It sounds perfectly suited for me. My Greek classes were 30 years ago and I never got a handle on Hebrew. I understand the concerns others have expressed about the content not matching the depth of seminary courses. I am not a pastor or exegete but do enjoy digging deeper into my study of the Bible. I was blessed with getting Word Biblical Commentary recently and have found it richer in content than I recall from my previous exposure. I look at this product more as a guide to using the tools already available in Logos rather than a promise of mastery of the original languages. George Somsel (a local hero on the forum) has pointed out it takes years of diligent study to master Hebrew & Greek. I doubt I have that many years to devote so I will gladly settle for tools like this that open up a richer payoff for my self-studies. This may prove to be the only language study instruction some lay-ministers have access to. Not everyone can go to seminary.
Matthew
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Thomas Black said:WilliamBingham said:
I realize there is the payment plan?? but that option really upsets me. I just don't understand how administrative fees of 5.00 per month are actually needed. That seems steep.
It appears steep? Really?
Perhaps it appears steep if you're spreading a small purchase over 3-6 months, but keep in mind a few things...
Even with 750,000 some odd users, Logos is a small company by global standards. To make it "worse" only a small percentage of that group buy more books once they get their collection. Of that group, only a small percentage take advantage of the pricing plan. Granted: I don't KNOW what the real numbers are - I'm guessing based upon what I've read and understood from other semi-related threads and correspondence.
But that translates into Logos, who is not a bank and not a financier having to hire a person or dedicate a person to making sure all of this internal billing, paperwork, follow through (and what happens to "bad debts"?) is taken care of for them. This convenience for users like me who have (and are) using the payment program translates into someone who needs to eat and pay his or her bills, and thus requires a paycheck every week from Logos. So while it may not cost $5 for a printout with your name on it, that person reading, filling, manipulating and working with the information in that printout needs to eat. Beyond that, I'll almost guarantee that $5 is much less than what a credit card would cost you.
I agree with you Thomas, this is a very good convience and the 5 bucks a month is not that big a deal. The interest on the credit cards are 8 times that or more per month.
Anywhoo I just ordered this along with the BDAG and the Hebrew Aramaic Lexicon; after watching all three videos...I realized I was learning some good stuff just watching. As I do not have any Greek or Hebrew language training, this will be a tremendous help to me...at least on how to use the tools related in my Scholars Library
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Anthony Etienne said:
I agree with you Thomas, this is a very good convience and the 5 bucks a month is not that big a deal. The interest on the credit cards are 8 times that or more per month.
Anthony, A credit card would charge 40 dollars or more a month for this 160 dollar item? You might want to check your figures again.
Respectfully
William
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Amen to that my Brother
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Hi Reuben,Reuben Evans said:We're developing a set of HD videos (over 15 hours of content) designed to help you to use Greek and Hebrew tools in Logos without formal training. Or you can use them to help knock some of the rust off your Greek or Hebrew!
http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5876
Post here with any questions. And I'll see what I can do to answer them.
Thanks for all you are doing to make this a successful experience for users. I've read the product page, watched the three videos, read all these posts. Would it be possible sometime in the future when it is feasible to provide a more detailed list of the contents, i.e. table of contents? It sounds really good but I don't want to have to return it if it doesn't "fit" where I am and I would rather make that judgment ahead of time. Thanks, again.
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WilliamBingham said:Anthony Etienne said:
I agree with you Thomas, this is a very good convience and the 5 bucks a month is not that big a deal. The interest on the credit cards are 8 times that or more per month.
Anthony, A credit card would charge 40 dollars or more a month for this 160 dollar item? You might want to check your figures again.
Respectfully
William
The 8 times 5 bucks per month was not being based on any specific cost; but just a general example that 5 bucks a month for the privilege of purchasing over a set amount of time, was not that unreasonable as you have previoulsy stated. Of course I respect your views on the subject of debt etc.
I choose to spread the payment of the BDAG and Holliday over just 4 months instead of 8; so you have some options to control the cost of the fees.
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I have Scholar's Silver but I don't know what BDAG is, please define...
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Third Edition (copyright 2000)
by Walter Bauer
Edited and revised by Frederick William Danker.Described as an "invaluable reference work" (Classical Philology) and "a tool indispensable for the study of early Christian literature" (Religious Studies Review) in its previous edition, this new updated American edition of Walter Bauer's Wörterbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments builds on its predecessor's staggering deposit of extraordinary erudition relating to Greek literature from all periods. Including entries for many more words, the new edition also lists more than 25,000 additional references to classical, intertestamental, Early Christian, and modern literature.
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Is there any idea when these videos will be complete?
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
BDAG is the best Greek lexicon. It is a must if you do Greek studies. I also like L&N and Anlex used in combination. Anlex will show all the morphological forms while L&N will give you a semantic meaning.
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These stated goals meet the needs I have had for many years. It is probably under priced for the benefit it will provide.
Luskey
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We are looking forward to feedback from those using the course as to how to improve it and what supplementary courses would be of interest. I think the way to view this work is as a launch into a need area and not a total finished solution. The beauty of Logos created databases is that they can be improved without having to go thru lots of levels of committee approvals.
I would love to see a course on How to Use Logos for studies in Theology, Church History, Preparing Sermons, etc. We would like to have faculty who are creating assignments using Logos 4 in their various disciplines to share these ideas so that we can create videos to assist in pedagogy for the classrooms and other small groups. Some people are better at customizing ideas to their own situation than they are creating all new assignments. For example, I have enjoyed using the Logos Lesson Builder as examples and samples of questions that can be used in small discussion groups.
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Jacob Hantla said:
Is there any idea when these videos will be complete?
I would like to second this question: Does anyone have an idea of when this product will be available. The pre-pub price is very, very tempting, but if the package isn't published until 2012 (or some such far-off date), then the temptation is not as great. I would like to incorporate this series into my Greek Exegesis class for my MDiv work. It's seems absolutely perfect for the class (after the traditional two years of Greek: grammar and syntax). I would imagine I'll use it, too, in Hebrew Exegesis (but, I'll get to Greek Exegesis first). So, if the product isn't published within the next six month (give or take), I won't be able to incorporate it into my class.
Is this something coming out soon? In a week? a month? two months? six?
Thanks!
Greg
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Gregory Kedrovsky said:
I would like to second this question: Does anyone have an idea of when this product will be available. The pre-pub price is very, very tempting, but if the package isn't published until 2012 (or some such far-off date), then the temptation is not as great.
If you sign up for it now, you lock in the price. If it takes longer than you want to wait, just cancel (You aren't charged for it before it is shipped). Frankly, this is going to be a unique resource for Logos users, and while I am hoping that it completes fairly quickly, using it is a couple of lines down on my to do list.
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I agree, it would be very useful to have some kind of ball park figure on when your goal date for this project is!
I think anyone that has taken Greek or Hebrew in school can easily see what you are trying to do with these videos and can see how useful they could be not only to those that have a little bacground in languages but also for those that don't. I love the idea and can hardly wait to see them.
My problem is a limited cash flow, and if these are going to be a while, there are at least three different items that each cost 125-175 dollars each that I would pick up in the near future, if these videos are going to be out in 90 days or more, but if they are going to be out sooner I would not make the other purchases until after I bought these videos, because I see them as being a don't miss item for so many people!
In Christ,
Jim VanSchoonhoven
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I have another "newbie" question: Will this Logos package run on Libronix (which is free for download) or does one have to buy a Logos product (e.g. Bible Study Library, Scholar's Library, etc. -- I'm in the process of trying to figure out which package would be the most bang for my wee little limited buck)?
Thanks.
Greg
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Gregory Kedrovsky said:
I have another "newbie" question: Will this Logos package run on Libronix (which is free for download) or does one have to buy a Logos product (e.g. Bible Study Library, Scholar's Library, etc. -- I'm in the process of trying to figure out which package would be the most bang for my wee little limited buck)?
Sorry. Just answered my own question: They are videos that will run independent of Libronix/Logos (e.g., Quicktime).
But... would anyone have any advice as to which package would contain the basic stuff one might need (a pastor and "distance learning" seminary student) in order to put into practice what is taught on these videos (i.e., to use Logos for language study, mostly in the context of teaching and preaching in a church)?
Thanks.
Greg
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the prepub page suggests that you have the Scholar's library package. it also recommends buying BDAG and A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament
Urban Scholar - http://urban-scholar.com
Christ-centered Hip-Hop - http://www.sphereofhiphop.com0 -
LaRosa Johnson said:
the prepub page suggests that you have the Scholar's library package. it also recommends buying BDAG and A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament
Yeah... I read that. But, frankly, I've been looking through the comparison chart to see if I could "get by" with the Bible Study Library instead. I have BDAG in paper... but, that doesn't help me much with Logos. I did notice, though (sad to say), that the Bible Study Library has only one item under "Original Language Grammars and Tools." That would undoubtedly be a problem...
I'm just trying to save a few bucks, that's all (well, actually, I'm trying to not over-spend -- I tend to want to "buy the farm" instead of just getting what I need).
Thanks again for the response.
Greg
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Gregory Kedrovsky said:
I tend to want to "buy the farm"
Sounds like a good package name when Logos decides to offer a package above Portfolio. [8-|]
Have you looked at the Original Language Package?
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JackCaviness said:
Sounds like a good package name when Logos decides to offer a package above Portfolio.
Hey, I get royalties! Starving missionary! Starving missionary! I get royalties! (What a hoot.)
JackCaviness said:Have you looked at the Original Language Package?
Yes, I did. If I were to do that, I would go ahead and go with the Scholar's, which has some commentaries that would be quite handy.
Thanks, Jack!
Greg
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Despite the recommendations, does anyone know if the Leader's Library would suffice to use this series? I also find this very enticing, but don't think it's worth the $600+ for the Scholar's Library.
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GabrielValencia said:
Despite the recommendations, does anyone know if the Leader's Library would suffice to use this series? I also find this very enticing, but don't think it's worth the $600+ for the Scholar's Library.
Since none of use has seen this series we can't answer with absolute knowledge, but my educated guess is no. The Bible Study Library and the Leader's Library just do not have enough orginal language resources for a person to do any serious work in the original languages.
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GabrielValencia said:
Despite the recommendations, does anyone know if the Leader's Library would suffice to use this series? I also find this very enticing, but don't think it's worth the $600+ for the Scholar's Library.
That was my thinking, too. It was actually recommended to me (for my studies, etc.) that I get the "Gold" package. $1300.00. Ouch. So... since the Greek/Hebrew Learning Videos recommend the Scholar's Library, I started looking at that. But, still: $500-plus, in addition to BDAG and a Hebrew Lexicon... Ouch, again.
However, if you look over the comparison chart, especially the categories "Original Language Grammars and Tools" and "Original Language Lexicons" (toward the bottom), you'll see that the Leader's Library just doesn't make the grade for language work. You could maybe make the Langugae Library work, but for me it really doesn't look appealing because it's missing so many of the commentaries, etc. And you're still talking $400 plus BDAG and Hebrew Lexicon (ouch one more time).
I guess it's a "cost-benefit" decision. Will the benefit derived from Logos justify the cost? I'm still on the fence with that one (especially since I seem to study better with books, pen, and paper... the "old paths" of the Luddite).
Greg
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I have already placed my pre-pub order.
I have a question though. Will you be waiting until the Logos 4 feature updates are completed before releasing releasing it, or will there be more updates pertaining to this after the release?
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Yes I have an "idea" when these videos will be complete. The materials are all complete in terms of outline and script. All ot the live video segments have been shot and edited. We are now in the process of screen capture for each of the computer segments. There are several more weeks scheduled for screen capture followed by editing and integration into a Logos "book/resource" which will provide the table of contents, video links, suggested reading lists and any additional excercises we might suggest. I would expect that under ideal conditions we would be looking at mid February to early March as the earliest delivery date. I wish I could be more specific but we have never taken on an AV project of this length before. It is however going well and I am very excited about the concept.
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Thanks for that information about the "when" of the course. I still have a question about the content of the course. If I don't know, for example, the table of contents, then it is difficult to judge the level of difficulty of the course-I want to know before I get it so I don't have to return it if it is too hard or easy.Dale Pritchett said:There are several more weeks scheduled for screen capture followed by editing and integration into a Logos "book/resource" which will provide the table of contents, video links, suggested reading lists and any additional excercises we might suggest.
And there is a mention about suggested readings and additional exercises. Are there other resources I will need to purchase? Thanks for your help.
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Dale Pritchett said:
Yes I have an "idea" when these videos will be complete. The materials are all complete in terms of outline and script. All ot the live video segments have been shot and edited. We are now in the process of screen capture for each of the computer segments. There are several more weeks scheduled for screen capture followed by editing and integration into a Logos "book/resource" which will provide the table of contents, video links, suggested reading lists and any additional excercises we might suggest. I would expect that under ideal conditions we would be looking at mid February to early March as the earliest delivery date. I wish I could be more specific but we have never taken on an AV project of this length before. It is however going well and I am very excited about the concept.
Thanks for the rough projection on this. I promise not to hold you to it, but I'm happy that it sounds like it's sooner than expected.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Hi, I hope I won't get jumped on for criticizing Logos for this training, but I feel that after investing $3000 in this product since November that I have some right to do so.
To wit: Why is Logos developing such a wonderful language study tool that is going to cost us yet more money, when the help system in Logos 4 is so incredibly and woefully inadequate right now? I would much prefer that Logos dedicate the time and resources to completing the product at hand that people have already purchased and are struggling with (especially in regards to the help system), that they are currently dedicating to a product that is going to require a further outlay of cash.
Thanks,
Matt
P.S. I wanted to post this earlier, but I didn't want to be a downer around Christmas and New Years.
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Matt said:
I hope I won't get jumped on for criticizing Logos for this training,
You are fair in your criticism of Logos. However, given the status of the project I suspect it was well underway before L4 was released. The overlap of skills would be in the videos for L4 not necessarily in the production of an effective help feature.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I have ordered this on prepublication and am looking forward to using
it. I was wondering, however, if you had considered offering this as a
download? I am just mindful that physical shipments significantly add
to the cost for international customers. In my case, based in the UK, I
would expect postage and import costs to add a third to the price.0 -
Matt said:
I would much prefer that Logos dedicate the time and resources to completing the product at hand that people have already purchased and are struggling with
I might be wrong but I would never trade some great project like this (or some commentary series) for better help files (they always can be better, it is a matter of personal opinion or demand). They look quite sufficient to me IMHO, plus tones of other info you can get in the forums and wiki.
Bohuslav
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Andy Evans said:
I was wondering, however, if you had considered offering this as a
download? I am just mindful that physical shipments significantly add
to the cost for international customers.Yes, yes, yes, please...
Bohuslav
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Hi Matt,Matt said:Hi, I hope I won't get jumped on for criticizing Logos for this training, but I feel that after investing $3000 in this product since November that I have some right to do so.
To wit: Why is Logos developing such a wonderful language study tool that is going to cost us yet more money, when the help system in Logos 4 is so incredibly and woefully inadequate right now? I would much prefer that Logos dedicate the time and resources to completing the product at hand that people have already purchased and are struggling with (especially in regards to the help system), that they are currently dedicating to a product that is going to require a further outlay of cash.
I'm a Logos customer and user also and I share your frustration with the Help section. I don't know if Logos personnel have spoken out as to the status of any plans to make Help, well, more in depth and to be more exhaustive in its contents. I think it would be gracious on their part to address your concern. God Bless!
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Matt , your point is well taken, they need to improve their helps and their whole out look on teaching us how to use the new program we have just bought!
However, I really doubt that the folks, that are working on this project are the same people that would do the project you are talking about, of course I could be completely wrong about this, but it doesn't look to me like they would be the ones working on this project, instead of the project you are talking about.
I think the real problem is that Logos just does not understand the need for them to do what you are talking about! I wish they did because I believe this problem leaves a LOT of us with a bad taste in our mouths about Logos!
On the other hand I am learning Logos very quickly by using 3rd part resources, thank God for those folks that have taken up the slack that Logos should have taken up.
But until Logos understands that this issue hurts the way we view them, I am afraid they will continue as they have been on this issue.
In Christ,
Jim
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Joan Korte said:
I think it would be gracious on their part to address your concern.
Hi Joan, I understand the spirit in which you state this, and I think it's wonderful! However, I don't think it would be gracious, I think it is *required*. The help system when Logos 4 was released was practically non-existent. The upgraded help in 4.0a was merely a thin veneer on top of what was mostly not there to begin with! If this was a $40 program, I could see the abject poverty of the help system. But I have never seen a worse help system. Ever.
I think Logos 4 is a remarkable software program. I own this software for my own Bible study and hopefully for my family's Bible study. I feel bad for the full-time pastors and teachers who are out there who, with limited funds, have a program that essentially leaves them to scrounge for direction and help on the Internet and/or invest further non-existent dollars in help resources that should be in the program to begin with. Time is a valuable commodity and hence, they should be able to have every feature explained and detailed within the product itself, and only for corner cases, perhaps seek 3rd-party assistance. Logos should make this their top priority to fulfill the promise of what any piece of software is supposed to deliver.
God Bless,
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Matt-
Logos' help does not need to teach someone how to use Greek and Hebrew tools anymore than a textbook should come bundled with a course. I have not found Logos help nor support to be inadequate, but rather more than sufficient, especially coupled with a responsive community. Many of the advanced tools can't truly be understood apart from an understanding and familiarity with original languages and language theory. That's ok; if you don't have that knowledge there's still plenty more for you to do; and their help videos will certainly help get one started.
But what this resource is is more like a course/class than a user guide or help dialog. This course appears to be more about language than it is software, although it lets us do things with the language because of the software that otherwise would be far to cumbersome with normal books.
SO again, this resource is not teaching us how to use the features included, but rather how to utilize them with a minimal original language knowledge.
-Jacob
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Jacob,
So, a software product that provides Greek and Hebrew tools should not explain how to use those tools in the software's help files? Hmm, that's a new one to me. By that definition, Microsoft Word shouldn't tell me how to use its table tool, Adobe Photoshop shouldn't explain to me what a 'smart object' is and how to use one, Microsoft Visual Studio shouldn't explain to me how to use the debugger and the various ways in which break points should be set. etc., etc. We both know that's poppycock. The best proof that the current help system is merely skeletal is by comparing the help system in Libronix 3 with that of Logos 4. There is no comparison whatsoever.
Telling paying customers that they need to go scrounging for help via "There's a post here in the forum/blog/personal web site/youtube/etc. that explains that feature", etc., is not acceptable for a commercial product, and merely validates my complaint. That type of response should build upon what a world-class help system already provides, the way it works for any other product.
So, again, my point is this (and by many of the posts in the Logos 4 community forum, I am not alone):
- The help system as it stands is woefully inadequate.
- I think it is an abrogation of Logos' responsibility to its customers to develop (and charge for) this new product which enables us to maximize our use of this software, when the help system is so woefully inadequate, not only by my estimation, but by many others as well.
- Before embarking upon this project which is for profit (after all, Logos is not a charitable organization, they are a business), they should have made sure that the help system was up-to-par to honor the outlay of funds that their customers have already made.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Matt said:
Hi, I hope I won't get jumped on for criticizing Logos for this training, but I feel that after investing $3000 in this product since November that I have some right to do so.
Wow. $3000.00. And for a product that is "woefully inadequate" in getting a user up-and-running with its features.
I will certainly be re-thinking my purchase of Logos. I think I'll be doing a little bit more looking into this program and the company before investing so much into their product (especially if it's going to leave me out in the cold, trying to harvest help from forums, YouTube, and personal blogs).
Wow...
Greg
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While I may not voice it as strongly, I agree that Logos does NOT do a good job with instructing users on how to best use ALL (and yes I think it should be all) of the features of the program. Other more advanced users have taken up SOME of the slack by producing some great videos, but it shouldn't HAVE to be that way.
A program that I have spent thousands (most recently upgraded from L3 leaders to L4 Gold) of dollars on SHOULD come with VERY detailed instructions on how to use ALL of the features that I have spent my hard earned money on.
This is my only real area of 'beef' with Logos, in all other areas they go above and beyond with thier products and services.
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Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:
...I have spent thousands...
Great... And here I sit, never having used the software before... thinking it's gonna really be a help. Thousands of dollars??? For a product that I can't learn to use?? Lovely.
Greg
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Gregory Kedrovsky said:Matt said:
Hi, I hope I won't get jumped on for criticizing Logos for this training, but I feel that after investing $3000 in this product since November that I have some right to do so.
Wow. $3000.00. And for a product that is "woefully inadequate" in getting a user up-and-running with its features.
I will certainly be re-thinking my purchase of Logos. I think I'll be doing a little bit more looking into this program and the company before investing so much into their product (especially if it's going to leave me out in the cold, trying to harvest help from forums, YouTube, and personal blogs).
Wow...
Greg
Greg, if your not a Logos user yet, understand that NO company does everything perfectly.
While I have a few gripes every now and then, I am MORE than satisfied overall with my investment in Logos Bible Software. In fact, I have used other Bible software programs in the past and nothing compares, in my opinion, to Logos.
If you are deciding not to invest in Logos, I'm afraid you are making a mistake.
One of the greatest things about the company is their willingness to listen and respond positivly to suggestions, concerns, and complaints. Their overall service is the best in the business, and may very well be the best compared to any buisness...imo...
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Greg,
The fact that I (and many others) have spent thousands of dollars on this program should speak volumes to the overall confidence we have in the program and the company.
My opinions are only concerning one area. Logos Bible Software has soo many features and functions that it can be a daunting task in learning them all. This is my only issue.
I would praise Logos and Logos Bible Software 9 times out of 10 any day of the week.... (you caught me on a bad day)
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Gregory Kedrovsky said:
I will certainly be re-thinking my purchase of Logos. I think I'll be doing a little bit more looking into this program and the company before investing so much into their product (especially if it's going to leave me out in the cold, trying to harvest help from forums, YouTube, and personal blogs).
Perhaps you should also consider that the harsh opinions expressed by a handful of discontented users in this (and other) threads and not necessarily the opinions of the majority of users. I personally do not find the Help files to be inadequate, but then I am willing to actually use the program to find out how it functions, and I can watch user prepared videos that far exceed the best help system ever devised in usefulness.
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