Can't do Bible Word Study on English word "martyr"???
Am I doing something wrong?
I open up a Bible Word Study panel, type in martyr, and press Enter. Nothing happens. In fact the right arrow that you can usually click on to start the guide doing its thing disappears. So I check back while I'm typing in martyr slowly and realize that it is never proposed in the dropdown autocomplete menu. As soon as I get to mart, the only word proposed is Martha.
Where does this list of proposed English words come from? Is it from one version of the Bible? How can I know and control which one? Or is it limited to some word list which is completely opaque to the user?
It is really puzzling why martyr, a well-known English biblical word (it's used in Rev 17:6 in the ESV and Acts 22:20 in the NIV and TNIV), with interesting things to look up about it, is not listed. I can do a Bible Word Study on the underlying Greek word, but a user with absolutely no knowledge of the biblical languages would likely not be able to do that.
Comments
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Rosie Perera said:
As soon as I get to mart, the only word proposed is Martha.
I get hits/proposed words for martyrs, martyrdom and martyrion but not martyr (singular). With the proposal "Martha" it is clear you have the code personalized for me.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rosie Perera said:
So I check back while I'm typing in martyr slowly and realize that it is never proposed in the dropdown autocomplete menu. As soon as I get to mart, the only word proposed is Martha.
It worked for me but it wanted "martyrs" and wouldn't do "martyr" with no "s."
Weird to say the least.
Rosie Perera said:but a user with absolutely no knowledge of the biblical languages would likely not be able to do that.
That would be the whole point of the interlinears in Logos eh? [;)]
What's REALLY interesting about this is the Greek word carries (it seems to me) the connotation of being a "witness" rather than "dying for the cause" and the understanding that we have as "dying for the cause" is something more contemporary...
Someone with more biblical knowledge can correct me though....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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The suggestions box only displays words from your preferred Bible. The ESV does not contain the singular "Martyrs". The NKJV, KJV, NIV and several others do. It's possible that your preferred version doesn't contain the singular, either. If it does, and it's not displaying in the suggestions, that probably points to an indexing issue.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Robert Pavich said:
What's REALLY interesting about this is the Greek word carries (it seems to me) the connotation of being a "witness" rather than "dying for the cause" and the understanding that we have as "dying for the cause" is something more contemporary...
Someone with more biblical knowledge can correct me though....
That is actually a major debate within certain sections of New Testament scholarship. If you have Beale's commentary on Revelation there's a nice summary of the debate. But it's also in the major dictionaries, of course. But certainly the link between martureo and martyrdom is very early, though I would argue it isn't first century.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
That is actually a major debate within certain sections of New Testament scholarship. If you have Beale's commentary on Revelation there's a nice summary of the debate. But it's also in the major dictionaries, of course. But certainly the link between martureo and martyrdom is very early, though I would argue it isn't first century.
Mark,
thank you for the information, I'll take a closer look...do you recommend any certain resources that you've found helpful besides Beales Revelation commentary?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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MJ. Smith said:
I get hits/proposed words for martyrs, martyrdom and martyrion but not martyr (singular).
You're doing a Bible Search, though. I was talking about Guides > Bible Word Study, which apparently uses a different word list, limited to Bible words only. When I do a Bible Search I too get all of those proposed words you mention. But also Martyr (capitalized, as in Justin Martyr I suppose, but why propose him for a Bible Search?), martyred, martyr's, Martyn (as in Lloyd-Jones), and martyrdoms. I guess the Search edit box works for all kinds of searches, so it has to include a broader set of proposed words -- all the words that appear anywhere in your library.
MJ. Smith said:With the proposal "Martha" it is clear you have the code personalized for me.
[:)] It's actually personalized for me, too. It has Rosie in it. And I learned something new! I never in a million years would have thought to look for my own name in Logos, but prompted by your silliness, I just did a search for it in my whole library and found this (from Holman's Concise Bible Commentary on Acts 12:6-19a):
The scene shifts to the house of John Mark’s mother, where the Christians were gathered together to pray for Peter. Rhoda ("Rosie"), the little servant girl, was so excited to see Peter that she left him at the gate.
Wow, I'd never known that "Rosie" was Rhoda's nickname. Kind of odd that no other resource I have mentions that, so I'm not sure I trust it.
Robert Pavich said:It worked for me but it wanted "martyrs" and wouldn't do "martyr" with no "s."
Strange. It wouldn't accept martyrs for me.
Mark Barnes said:The suggestions box only displays words from your preferred Bible. The ESV does not contain the singular "Martyrs". The NKJV, KJV, NIV and several others do. It's possible that your preferred version doesn't contain the singular, either. If it does, and it's not displaying in the suggestions, that probably points to an indexing issue.
My preferred Bible is TNIV, which does contain the singular "martyr" in Acts 22:20.
How can I force the index to rebuild?
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Mark Barnes said:Robert Pavich said:
What's REALLY interesting about this is the Greek word carries (it seems to me) the connotation of being a "witness" rather than "dying for the cause" and the understanding that we have as "dying for the cause" is something more contemporary...
Someone with more biblical knowledge can correct me though....
That is actually a major debate within certain sections of New Testament scholarship. If you have Beale's commentary on Revelation there's a nice summary of the debate. But it's also in the major dictionaries, of course. But certainly the link between martureo and martyrdom is very early, though I would argue it isn't first century.
I had always heard it explained that martyrs were killed because of their their testimony, and thus the word martyr took on that other meaning of being killed for one's witness rather than merely witnessing. While the ESV mentions "the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" in Rev 6:9, the NIV renders it "the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus," but the TNIV renders it "the blood of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained." That is perhaps the best rendering of all for understanding of the meaning of the text.
I don't have BDAG, I've got the earlier version (BAGD), but it says: "In the usage of the persecuted church μάρτυς became one who witnessed unto death, a martyr." It mentions Antipas being called a μάρτυς in Rev 2:13, and Jesus being called a μάρτυς in Rev 1:5 and 3:14. BAGD goes on to say: "The death of Jesus was early regarded as the first martyrdom." Finally, it continues: "For an analysis of the question how μάρτυς=‘witness’ came to mean ‘martyr’, cf..." with a whole bunch of early 20th century journal article references. (Too bad I don't have links to follow up on those in my Logos library!) This is all under point 3 of the headword μάρτυς, μάρτυρος, ὁ. It would be interesting to know if BDAG says something different.
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Rosie Perera said:
I don't have BDAG, I've got the earlier version (BAGD), but it says:
No! No! (hands clasped over hears and eyes tightly closed) I can't hear you I can't hear you....la la la la I can't hear you! [:D]
Don't ruin it for me...I'm going to do a study and use Pastor Barnes "favorites" method of asking questions and collecting data...
whew that was close....[;)]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
I'll take a closer look...do you recommend any certain resources that you've found helpful besides Beales Revelation commentary?
I also just followed up on a footnote from Beale (thank you, Logos, for making it possible to select and copy text from footnote popup windows!), which pointed me to an article "Μάρτυς and Martyrdom in the Apocalypse" by Allison A. Trites in Novum Testamentum hosted on JSTOR, which I don't have access to at the moment because I haven't gotten around to renewing my UBC library card, but which at least I was able to see a preview of the first page of. Taking a significant quote from that page, I did a Google search and found a substantial paper by Alan S. Bandy (Ph.D. candidate in New Testament Studies at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary) who quotes Trites and goes into this issue at some length. It is our good fortune that this paper (which he expanded into the topic of his dissertation) is available in its entirety on the web: http://www.phc.edu/journalfiles/bandy.pdf. Have at it!
Oh boy, this is fun! This is bringing me back into my grad school days. I love doing research!
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Rosie Perera said:Mark Barnes said:
The suggestions box only displays words from your preferred Bible. The ESV does not contain the singular "Martyrs". The NKJV, KJV, NIV and several others do. It's possible that your preferred version doesn't contain the singular, either. If it does, and it's not displaying in the suggestions, that probably points to an indexing issue.
My preferred Bible is TNIV, which does contain the singular "martyr" in Acts 22:20.
How can I force the index to rebuild?
Bible Word Study is fixated on ESV words for the translation sections, hence the suggestion of "martyrs". And the "definitive" test of your index is to search for the word "meek" as at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/7527/59615.aspx!
EDIT: if you manually enter a word it uses the ESV, and then it seems to do some stemming. Thus "meekness" ==> meek & "gentleness" ==> gentle. If you perform Word Study from the context menu of a RI it will use the exact word and that RI in the translation (Greek word/Hebrew word) sections.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Rosie Perera said:
It is our good fortune that this paper (which he expanded into the topic of his dissertation) is available in its entirety on the web: http://www.phc.edu/journalfiles/bandy.pdf. Have at it!
thanks Rosie,
I put it in my "logos documents" folder where all of my Logos related stuff goes, and then per Mark Barnes method I drug the shortcut into my favorites "martyr study" sub-folder area along with all of the other clippings and resources....
Nice... [:D]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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The ones I found most interesting are not available in Logos were three from the Bible Translator Journal.
- Petros Vassiliadis, ‘The Translation of Martyria Iēsou in Revelation’, The Bible Translator 36:1 (1985), pp. 129-134.
- Fred Mazzaferri, ‘Martyria Iēsou Revisited’, The Bible Translator 39:1 (1988), pp. 114-122.
- Paul Ellingworth, ‘The Marturia Debate’, The Bible Translator 41:1 (1990), pp. 138-139.
You've also got Mitchell G. Reddish, ‘Martyr Christology in the Apocalypse’, Journal for the Study of the New Testament 33 (1988), pp. 85-95.
But there is plenty of other stuff out there, too.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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