L4 Lectionary Hard to Use - Revised Layout Hard to Scroll, & Won't Stay When Scrolling Stops

These 2 issues combined drive me back to L3 almost every time I plan for worship for the next block of time. I should mention up front that I'm impacted by the Synaptics driver bug. Scrolling doesn't really work on my laptop. That just makes these issues even worse.

In L4, scrolling can cover all dates in the lectionary. In L3, scrolling covers only one date. L4's approach places extraordinary demand for user control of mouse, touchpad, etc, so as not to scroll outside the range of material I'm trying to read. I believe this level of control is simply not possible. I recommend:
1. L4 lectionary be reformatted so scrolling normally occurs only within a single date, not across dates.
2. If scrolling top to bottom of the entire lectionary is required, do that via explicit request (perhaps ctrl- or shift- keya while scrolling), & provide a date popup locator on the scroll bar (ala scrolling thru a word processor) so we know when to stop scrolling.
Even if I manage to scroll to a desired location in the L4 lectionary, as soon as I take my hands off the keyboard (can't use the touchpad, remember), the lectionary jumps to some other location near where I left it. Frequently, the info I wanted is now off the screen. After a couple of occurrences, combined with the difficulty of getting there in the 1st place, it's back to L3. This needs to be fixed.

Thanks for listening!

Bill

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

MJ. Smith

To what degree would a table of contents based on liturgical date relieve your issues? Then a click on the date would position you correctly.

Rosie Perera

Even if I manage to scroll to a desired location in the L4 lectionary, as soon as I take my hands off the keyboard (can't use the touchpad, remember), the lectionary jumps to some other location near where I left it.

Bill, I can't address your other concerns, but you don't need to scroll to your desired location in the lectionary. You can simply type the date in the date box at the top and it will immediately jump to the top of that date's lectionary entry. It excepts even the most shorthand of date formats (e.g., if I type 1/17 today, it is smart enough to go to January 17, 2010). So the most you have to scroll is Page Down and Page Up again to see all of that entry and stay within it.

Actually, I just realized that it's not very smart. If you don't type in a date that is precisely a Sunday, it can't figure out the closest Sunday. [:(]

I'd like to see them add a calendar input control as is so common now in software/websites where you have to pick a date, so you could just click to choose the date, click forward/back arrow to go to next/prev month, etc. I'll post this as a separate suggestion.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60357#Comment_60357

Another suggestion: you can open up the Table of Contents (TOC) pane on the left side of the lectionary by clicking on that double-chevron arrow thingy in the upper left corner:

Then you can resize the width of that pane and navigate to wherever you want in the lectionary by a single click (well, maybe a couple of extra clicks to expand the year and season section of the TOC if necessary):

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60355#Comment_60355

click on the date would position you correctly.

Hi Martha,

Thanks for the response! Unfortunately, while I love the idea of LOCATING a date, and it would HELP, it isn't my main problem. L4's lectionary up/down arrow works the same way it did in L3 to FIND the intial date. But once there, it won't all fit on a single screen. I'm forced to figure out some way to scroll within a single date. But the report has all the verses (YAY!), & to scan them all means scrolling a page or 2 for each date, to view all the data. As I scroll / pray about which one is for the message, that's when I get into trouble...

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60357#Comment_60357

don't need to scroll to your desired location in the lectionary.

Hi Rosie,

You're right, to get there. Fortunately, it almost always comes up near the current Sunday. So planning for the next month (or three) is easy, sequentially. I can get to the START of the desired location almost immediately. It's digesting all the data at that location that's the problem.

After I'm at the readings for a date, on my laptop (15" screen) & docking station monitors (19" screens), unfortunately I DO need to scroll. One of my main tasks is to select WHICH of the lectionary readings (if not all) that I'll preach from. That means scrolling back & forth between the multiple readings at a single date until the Lord has drawn my attention to one (or more) in particular.

For me, scrolling is unavoidable, AFTER I've located the correct set of readings. And since I'm usually planning sequentially, I can get to the next Sunday's readings by clicking on the lectionary's up/down arrows. For the RCL, that usually moves an entire Sunday (no daily readings).

Thanks for the response!

Bill

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60362#Comment_60362

can open up the Table of Contents (TOC) pane

Hi again, Rosie,

Thanks again for your response! Yes, you're right... that's another alternative for LOCATING the set of readings. But locating it wasn't my problem. It was digesting them & staying put once I got there.

I can't tell you how frustrating it is AFTER locating the texts to be scrolling back & forth (even using the scroll bar up / down arrows, for precision), to stop long enough to read, & then to have the lectionary jump somewhere else that puts the area I wanted to read off the screen--before I've had a chance to start reading.

Blessings to you, & thanks for all you're doing!

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60373#Comment_60373

Bill, how are you scrolling? I can view the first few readings, press the Page Down key, see the next few readings, press Page Down one more time and see the final screen worth. I can somehow manage to keep in my short term memory the fact that I've hit Page Down twice so far, and I merely hit Page Down once to get back up a screen and Page Up again to get back to the beginning.

Or maybe you're someone who prefers using the mouse or touchpad for scrolling instead of the keyboard? I'm not sure what the "Synaptics driver bug" is but as I understand it that only affects autoscrolling. You should still be able to use the on-screen scroll bar normally. That means clicking in the large blank area below where the scroll thumb is should scroll down a page, and clicking in the large blank area above where the scroll thumb is should scroll up a page. Clicking on the scroll thumb itself and dragging would be harder to control, I grant you. But just scroll cleanly a complete page up/down at a time and you shouldn't have a problem.

Oh, and if one of the readings happens to span over the break between screenfuls, just scroll down one or two lines by clicking the down arrow at the very bottom of the scroll bar one or two times.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60378#Comment_60378

Hi Rosie,

I always start with L4 because it's more fun. I try scrolling in all the ways you mentioned.

Try setting your RCL lectionary for Jan 17th (where I bailed out this week).

Now try scrolling so the Psalm 36:5-10 reading at the top of your screen so you can read all of it.

On my L4, it only works half the time. The other half the time, it'll jump off the reading to something else.

The jumps occur whether I'm using touchpad to pick page up/down or using the keys for page up/down.

While trying to use it so I could describe the behavior to you, somehow, it jumped back to Thanksgiving day, & nothing worked to get it off one of the readings, there. <sigh> Finally, I keyed in January 17 again. That worked. Martha's locator would help that part of my problem, but it still needs help once I'm there...

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60382#Comment_60382

Bill, I'm utterly mystified. I cannot reproduce that behavior at all.

Do you have Jing for doing screen captures (including video)? It's a free tool you can download from www.jingproject.com, and share your captures with others through free storage space on Screencast (also owned by the same company TechSmith that makes Jing; you need to register for an account there). I'd like to see a recording of what your screen looks like when you are doing this. Here's what it looks like on my machine (using TechSmith's higher-end product Camtasia):

[view:http://content.screencast.com/users/rosiep/folders/Default/media/8a68fd95-3219-4cbf-8cb5-af1f4e4620de/logos_rcl_scrolling.swf:550:362]

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60390#Comment_60390

Do you have Jing

Not yet... finally finished research for January a few minutes ago... will try to download/install & make a video, tomorrow, for you.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60371#Comment_60371

As I scroll / pray about which one is for the message, that's when I get into trouble.

Thanks for the reply - it tells me what I needed to know. You need the beginning of a lectionary date to provide a break in the scrolling. Now let me ask a second question. Would you find it useful to have all the scriptures for the service (sentences/antiphons depending on denomination) and/or the scriptures for Liturgy of the Hours/Morning-Evening prayer included in the lectionary or maintained as a separate resource?

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60432#Comment_60432

Would you find it useful to have all the scriptures for the service (sentences/antiphons depending on denomination) and/or the scriptures for Liturgy of the Hours/Morning-Evening prayer included in the lectionary

Hi Martha,

YES! Most useful if included. Why? A hotlink popup won't ALWAYS have room for all of the material. I'll scroll through all available info for a particular date...

Thanks for the response!

Blessings,

Bill

BTW, the RCL used by our denomination doesn't always have a daily reading. So when I'm asked to prepare liturgy for a worship service on a date that doesn't appear in our liturgical calendar, I look 1st in the lectionaries of others who do have daily readings... Even though I mainly use the RCL, I do use others.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60390#Comment_60390

Hi Rosie,

I tried my 1st Jing "movie" to show you the result... A link follows...

http://screencast.com/t/ZmYyM2M3

Did this work as expected?

Bill

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60626#Comment_60626

BTW, the RCL used by our denomination doesn't always have a daily reading. So when I'm asked to prepare liturgy for a worship service on a date that doesn't appear in our liturgical calendar, I look 1st in the lectionaries of others who do have daily readings... Even though I mainly use the RCL, I do use others.

That doesn't surprise me (in an odd way). Gail Ramshaw's precursor to the daily RCL (Between Sundays) dates from 1997; the CCT proposal (RCL Daily Readings) dates from 2005. Yet a Lutheran Hymnal I have from the 1930's offers 4 historic daily reading cycles! But I do understand when so many churches that are CCT members don't have a tradition of daily services/public prayers, it does take a while to find an appropriate relationship between the daily and the weekly.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60687#Comment_60687

Hi Rosie,

I tried my 1st Jing "movie" to show you the result... A link follows...

http://screencast.com/t/ZmYyM2M3

Did this work as expected?

Bill

Yes, Bill. That worked great! Thank you for doing it. Welcome to the fun world of screencasting. :-)

But all I can say is: Wow, now I see what you're talking about, and I can totally understand why you're frustrated. This would drive me nuts, too. It doesn't happen on my machine, so I have no idea why it's happening for you. Have you contacted Logos Support about it? I'm now beyond my resources in thinking of what might be causing it. But just to reassure you, it's not supposed to work that way. (I'm using SR-7.)

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60978#Comment_60978

it's not supposed to work that way.

Hi Rosie,

Thanks for confirming what I knew...

Until I reboot, I'm on 4.0a RC1. After, I'll be on RC2. I've been a beta tester for L2, L3, & L4.

Blessings to you!

Bill

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/61050#Comment_61050

I've been a beta tester for L2, L3, & L4.

Wow, you've been a more loyal beta tester than I have. I was a beta tester on 0.9, before Logos was even a company. [:)] I think also beta tested on on 1.0 and 1.6 but not again since that until the last 2 weeks of the Logos 4 beta. I've upgraded to each of the intervening versions but not until well after they shipped. Perhaps that's why I didn't find out about the L4 beta until so late.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/61065#Comment_61065

Hi Rosie,

I just confirmed that it's still an issue with RC2. I think I better start trying to seriously figure out what's going on. I'm running old Microsoft Wireless IntelliMouse/Keyboard Explorer 2.0 hardware & had to download new drivers to install it in Vista 64. Wonder if it's a driver problem... I'll check for new drivers later today.

For now, it's off to work/church, through the snow....

Bill

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/61317#Comment_61317

check for new drivers

It turns out both the keyboard & mouse drivers included capability to check for updates. None available... I went ahead & downloaded the drivers again & will uninstall / reinstall at work tomorrow (that wireless keyboard / mouse are on a port replicator at work; I'm using a wired Natural keyboard & wired Logitech trackball at home) to see if that helps.

Short of that, I'm not sure what to look for...

Blessings!

(And Rosie, I see that being on the road couldn't keep you off the forums!)

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/61640#Comment_61640

(And Rosie, I see that being on the road couldn't keep you off the forums!)

Yeah, I've been stuck in the Chicago airport for almost 6 hours as flights have been delayed and delayed and delayed. Good thing I made a last-minute decision to bring my laptop with me, and there's free WiFi here, and I found an electric outlet that wasn't in use. God obviously meant me to spend some more time on the Logos Forum. I like it when I can attribute things to Providence rather than my own obsession... :-)

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/61680#Comment_61680

Yeah, I've been stuck in the Chicago airport for almost 6 hours as flights have been delayed and delayed and delayed.

The joys of domestic travel in the US!

They want you to hit 1000 posts...

SteveF

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/61640#Comment_61640

Dear Bill:
Mine has been doing EXACTLY what yours is doing .
HELP
Steve F

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/61763#Comment_61763

Mine has been doing EXACTLY what yours is doing .

Steve,

What kind of hardware are you using? Since you & I are the only 2 "confessing" to the problem, we should probably 1st find out what's similar in our environments.

In the office I'm using a Wireless Intellimouse Explorer 2.0 Mouse / Wireless Comfort Keyboard duo (they share a wireless non-bluetooth controller) attached to one port replicator & at home I'm using Microsoft Natural keyboard & Logitech trackball. The laptop has the infamous Synaptics keypad known to have scrolling problems (when trying to use the scroll areas of the touchpads).

As far as I can tell, all the pointing & typing hardware is functioning correctly in every other application but Logos 4 (including Logos 3, Pradis, MS-Office, MS Streets & Trips, MS FrontPage, 8 different photo editing packages, Video Studio, Frontpage, etc.).

My laptop is on Vist 64, 4Gb DRAM, Core 2 Duo (P8400 chipset, 2.26 GHz), 7200rpm SATA, NVIDIA gForce 9200 with 256Mb RAM.

What's your setup?

Bill

SteveF

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/62036#Comment_62036

Bill, mine is pretty "vanilla" compared to yours.

this is a P4 with only one core 2.20 Ghz running on XP Pro Version 2002 with Service Pack 3.

4G (Dual) Ram (over-kill as only 1.96 is addressed) 7200 SATE hard-drive.

Two nVidia 512Mb video cards. One is in a AGP slot the other a PCI -express 16x etc. (I also used to beta test some games)

I have a USB connected mouse (generic 2 button with the "click wheel" between them) and a USB M$ "Natural" Multimedia Keyboard. They are both plugged into a generic (Staples/Business Depot) USB port.

I have no issues with other software nor with any other Logos resources (except when I delete a collection -- then the whole drawer goes into a "shaking, flying up and down" weird dance -- it even continues after I close and re-open) I have to try to click in it or mov ethe slider bar -- Bradley acknowledged he had at least seem this happen, but I've heard nothing else not seen any one else complain. It still does itthroughout beta and now into 4.0a.

That is my only other really 'weird" thing besides this other weird lectionary "shuffle."

Regards

Steve

I have not even checked to see if it also does it on the laptop.

BillS

In a related thread (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/7876/62403.aspx#62403), Jon Rumble discovered that unchecking Links to Open Panels in the visual filters will clear up scrolling problems in Church Dogmatics.

I checked, & it also appears to resolve the erratic scrolling I was observing in the RCL.

So far, I'm a happy camper.

Thanks, Jon!