Well, there goes WBC (new volumes) for now.

Erwin Stull, Sr.

Just received an email stating that the new volumes of WBC are being removed.

Word Biblical Commentary, vol. 32: Micah–Malachi (Revised)
Word Biblical Commentary, vol. 37a: Acts 1–14
Word Biblical Commentary, Volume 18a: Job 21–37

Not sure if there are any more volumes gone.

Sad

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Comments

Kenneth Neighoff

Well, I still have two of them in dead tree version. So good for now.

Dan Francis

Job 38-42 (Word Biblical Commentary 18B)

is the missing volume and it has been out since 2011.

-Dan

John Kight

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616544#Comment_616544

Bummer...[:(]

Mark Smith

Here's the notice I received. Mentions some rights issues. This is indeed strange as Logos has been carrying the WBC for years. The Acts one is the only one I was interested in.

William Gabriel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616543#Comment_616543

If they're out in the dead tree format, what could Logos mean by, "The books are yet to be completed"? Surely if they're printed, someone has them as electronic copies. Does that mean that Logos hadn't done their part yet in tagging?

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616548#Comment_616548

WORD
BIBLICAL
COMMENTARY
VOLUME 18A
Job 21–37
DAVID J. A. CLINES

General Editors
Bruce M. Metzger
David A. Hubbard
Glenn W. Barker
Old Testament Editor
John D. W. Watts
New Testament Editor
Ralph P. Martin
Associate Editors
James W. Watts, Old Testament
Lynn Allan Losie, New Testament

To my daughter
Miriam

עֹז־וְהָדָר לְבוּשָׁהּ וַתִּשְׂחַק לְיֹום אַחֲרֹון

Strength and dignity are her clothing,
and she laughs at the days to come (Prov 31:25).

David J. A. Clines, Job 21–37, vol. 18a, Word Biblical Commentary (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 2006), iii–iv.

Email is wrong.

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616550#Comment_616550

Perhaps yet to be completed means not yet completed in Logos format.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616552#Comment_616552

Word Biblical Commentary, Volume 18A: Job 21–37

They still selling it...

-Dan

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616552#Comment_616552

Is Acts still not out in bound book?

I find this rug pull out distressing. Work in business should bow the knee to the Creator, not the rights of commerce which wouldn't exist at all without the blessing of the Creator.

Wouldn't business be so much better if they learned to simply make money rather than churn around how much money they could make?

Erwin Stull, Sr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616558#Comment_616558

The way I understand the email is that each of the WBC titles on pre-pub has been removed (due to a licensing issue). Not sure if this is going to affect the current offerings, but I suspect that all new volumes from the publisher will not be offered by Logos (for the time being). The work that Logos have already completed on the pre-pub volumes is probably on hold.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616558#Comment_616558

Nope Acts is not released volume 1 or 2...

-Dan

Sarel Slabbert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616569#Comment_616569

This is worrisome. When you start building a library you have your eyes on certain books, saving up to get a decent library. I went the route of Logos the last few years, getting electronic books. I chose Logos because it, at that time, offered most of the resources I plan to get in the future. Suddenly WBC's Acts is no longer available (even before it was available).
I wonder what exactly is the "licensing issue" and why it is a issue now?

Makes me wonder if it will remain worth it to pursue an electronic library. Printed books do not have this hassle (although electronic books have some great advantages). Just wondering.

O T Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616574#Comment_616574

It's especially disappointing that the final volume of Clines on Job is not going to be available. Is this a case where Logos is trying too hard to negotiate a cheap price from the publishers and forgetting the needs of their users? Perhaps Logos will comment in more detail about their licensing problems. If this is a foretaste of what might happen with other publishers it could be very concerning for people switching to an electronic library.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616595#Comment_616595

Is this a case where Logos is trying too hard to negotiate a cheap price from the publishers and forgetting the needs of their users?

There is no reason to assume that.

Perhaps Logos will comment in more detail about their licensing problems.

In most cases this would be a breach of good-faith negotiations. The most common reasons for problems is a change in copyright ownership or the discovery that the party you are negotiating with has more limited rights than they realized or health problems/family problems that take one party to the negotiations temporarily out of the loop.

Stephen Steele

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616596#Comment_616596

Very disappointing. It's one of the worries about investing in Logos - what if a few big publishers pull all their stuff?

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616596#Comment_616596

My WBC is still showing as Under Contract and I have not received an email to inform me one way or the other. Could that mean that the "rights issue" affects US only as I am in UK?

Martin Folley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616600#Comment_616600

I received the email in the UKl [:(]

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616600#Comment_616600

My WBC is still showing as Under Contract and I have not received an email to inform me one way or the other. Could that mean that the "rights issue" affects US only as I am in UK?

Alan, I don't think so. Logos wouldn't produce a commentary resource for international users only. I received the email but when I checked the prePub order was still in my account. It could be their usual bulk process: send out the email in stages and give/remove licences over time (maybe even manually).

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616604#Comment_616604

My WBC is still showing as Under Contract and I have not received an email to inform me one way or the other. Could that mean that the "rights issue" affects US only as I am in UK?

Alan, I don't think so. Logos wouldn't produce a commentary resource for international users only. I received the email but when I checked the prePub order was still in my account. It could be their usual bulk process: send out the email in stages and give/remove licences over time (maybe even manually).

[:(] [:'(]

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616607#Comment_616607

I received the same email last night and of course was disappointed like others. In my mind this is a good move for Logos to remove these. I think they put them on Pre-pub too soon and the publishers were not able to do what they anticipated. By removing them from Pre-pub it doesn't mean that they will not be offered in the future. It just removes that expectation that their publication in Logos is imminent. I am optimistic that this will be solved in the future.

Paul-C

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616613#Comment_616613

I wonder if this licensing issue is anything to do with the merger(/takeover?) of Zondervan and Thomas Nelson, which I think occurred in 2012...

Would this have taken place after the last volume of WBC was published in Logos?

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616616#Comment_616616

I wonder if this licensing issue is anything to do with the merger(/takeover?) of Zondervan and Thomas Nelson

This is exactly what came to my mind as well.

Kenneth Neighoff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616621#Comment_616621

I bought the first volume of WBC when I was in college and the promise then was to have the set completed in 10 years. That did not happen.

I am grateful to have what I have in Logos and the ones I don't have in Logos in dead tree format.

Grateful for what I have in both in my digital library and the dead tree library.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616598#Comment_616598

Very disappointing. It's one of the worries about investing in Logos - what if a few big publishers pull all their stuff?

That scenario could (and has in the past) impacted new offerings. If you already own it, it's yours and you will not have to be worried about losing it.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616628#Comment_616628

Oh you guys.

Us Libronix'ers have been in this boat going on a couple-three years or so. What you see is what you got. Time passes. Zondervan buys a software platform. Hello. If not now, soon enough.

Independent of the exact details, and looking out, I don't think the publishing sea is going to remain calm for customers.

Mike Childs

I understand that business is business, and it would be unfair to blame Logos alone for such copyright negotiation failures. No doubt both sides are doing what they feel in in their financial best interest. There are so many things that we don't know in such matters, and I trust the Logos people.

That said and acknowledged, this is most disappointing. It confirms a conclusion I came to not very long ago. I cannot rely solely on Logos for my electronic Bible study resources. While there is a convenience in having all my resources working together in Logos, it is not essential. Both price and availability are also major factors. And I need to explore what is the best other software to complement my extensive Logos library.

After all, business is business for me, too.

Logos still has the best selection of resources out there, in my opinion. While, I now need other ebook formats to supplement Logos, Logos will forever be my "go to" study tool, and I will be always be a Logos customer.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616632#Comment_616632

What you see is what you got. Time passes. Zondervan buys a software platform. Hello. If not now, soon enough.

Independent of the exact details, and looking out, I don't think the publishing sea is going to remain calm for customers.

Denise, you certainly make a good point. If there is something from Zondervan that one wants in Logos, one would be wise to get it while it is available.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616633#Comment_616633

I understand that business is business, and it would be unfair to blame Logos alone for such copyright negotiation failures. No doubt both sides are doing what they feel in in their financial best interest. There are so many things that we don't know in such matters, and I trust the Logos people.

That said and acknowledged, this is most disappointing. It confirms a conclusion I came to not very long ago. I cannot rely solely on Logos for my electronic Bible study resources. While there is a convenience in having all my resources working together in Logos, it is not essential. Both price and availability are also major factors. And I need to explore what is the best other software to complement my extensive Logos library.

After all, business is business for me, too.

This has a totally different ring to me. I've come to distrust publishers. To a large extent they get paid for services they no longer deliver and/or are no longer needed. They don't care for authors (though not all of these have realized that) and they care even less for readers - the least they care about is their products i.e. the resources we want to read. After all, every dollar spent on a backlist product is a dollar less spent on this years' shiny new product. Thus the publishers not only like but actively propagate the "gap of the 20th century", orphaned works and outrageous licencing models. They use all kind of lobbyism, illegal contracts and outright lies to keep their hands on the money. The whole thing with "difficult licence rights situations" has been brought about and sustained by publishers and other rights holders who want to maximize profits by artificially separating markets - even in places where it should be illegal to do so, such as in the EU.

I participated in the recent EU project to gain feedback on the state of copyright in the EU and potential developments. The result of ten-thousands of voices curated in a 100pages report is simply that there's a big divide: publishers and rights-owners on the one side and nearly everybody else [including the professional archives] on the other side. The publishers are playing this from a position of might (and might is right and business is business, you say).

These guys only understand money. So when we go about and buy B&H products from WordSearch, Moody products from the next dead-tree-store and Zondervan products from a Neo-PRADIS-soon-to-come, they will pat themselves on their shoulders and believe they did everything right. In the end this may kill Logos. Nope. Not with me. I will buy WBC 32 in Logos or I won't buy it. If Zondervan thinks they don't want to sell me a commentary on Logos, then perhaps Tyndale or IVP will.

"Business is business"? It seems that publishers are rapidly losing trust and this impacts my intentions on doing business with them.

I don't want them to sell me the same product over and over again because they "invent" a publisher-based digital platform and let it die again.
I don't want them to sell me a licence to a product and then go back and never deliver the files to Logos for producing the resource (yes, I can't read a single character of Hebrew, nevertheless I bought BHQ in course of my SESB CD-ROM and I blame the publisher on not giving me what I paid for years ago).

In former times, business meant keeping contracts, even if they were spoken words over a handshake. Going back on their contracts or letters of intent with Logos may keep the bargaining power up for a publisher, but it tells me of an attitude I don't want to support with my money.

(rant off)

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616645#Comment_616645

Gee, NB. Welcome back. No offense intended, but you're back to your pre-star self!

But I agree, and not even from a principled or 'Christian' perspective. When I see a book by Zondervan, I don't buy it. And when I see a book from LitPress, I take a long hard look at it. I know that's probably pretty stupid. But liking the source means something.

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616648#Comment_616648

I still believe Zondervan is not operated by Christians, but by worldly people who are just interested in making money off of religious literature!

DAL

William Gabriel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616645#Comment_616645

NB, I agree with you that the situation is ridiculous. Copyright has turned into something that it was not originally intended to be, and it is grievous.

Besides shortening copyright to something more reasonable, like the original limits (or even shorter, since there is so much more decay in the value of IP), I think requiring a central clearinghouse for IP would make it a much better system. Every copyright holder who wants government protection should be required to register all works with the clearinghouse (kind of like the way the Library of Congress was set up)--should be tenable now that the IP world is purely digital. While you hold the rights to IP, you get to set the price for a license. It doesn't matter what it is, cheap/expensive, changing over time, whatever floats your boat, but the key to the clearing house is that no rights holder may discriminate. Anyone may buy any number of licenses they want and then may transfer that licence by first-sale doctrine.

I believe this type of legal structure would stop all the IP silliness. Logos and other platforms should lobby for such frameworks.

Paul C

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616652#Comment_616652

In a recent Supreme Court ruling, It was determined that if an individual (Or a Company) "Sincerely Believes" in the stance they are taking, They should be allowed to do so. Another person's sincere beliefs are NOT enough to allow them control over my decisions.....or Beliefs. We all must work out our own Salvation...."Christianity."

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616632#Comment_616632

What you see is what you got. Time passes. Zondervan buys a software platform. Hello. If not now, soon enough.

I am not 100% sure if you were meaning had bought, which is the case. Zondervan's parent company did buy Olivetree Bible software. And even they do not have the final Job volume in their store. Logos is the biggest and one of the most important Bible software companies out there, now they are a tiny company compared to publishers, but publishers in general realize the importance of having their works available in Logos. I was about to write no company is going to pull their books from a distribution point, all it does is cost them sales, but even as i was typing it MOODY did come to mind, obviously there was some issue that kept them from containing their relationship with Logos (but not a big enough reason to keep their books out of Vyrso). In general most companies care little about who sells their stuff, only that it gets sold and they get their money.

-Dan

Travis Walter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616671#Comment_616671

hmm never got the email but they are removed from order history.. strange.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616671#Comment_616671

Dan, I really don't know what the ins/outs of selective platform management might be for both publishers and authors as well.

I know in 'retail' that channel management is critical in maintaining both margin and revenue. In books, Brill comes to mind, where a re-seller is fine, as long as margins/price-point is met. Oxford looks very similar.

But I'd assume if I were Zondervan (where brand is a hodge-podge), OT would be a means to leverage Logos and the like. Don't really know how valuable 'one platform' is to a customer. I suspect Michael will be the norm in the future. Myself, I work off of four platforms now and have essentially 'invented' a way to move data between them.

That's why I think Logos really needs a come-to-Jesus on UI design, to allow a significant market expansion. OT already figured this out maybe 5 years ago. As long as Logos limits itself to a specialty platform, publishers will remain a headache.

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616674#Comment_616674

hmm never got the email but they are removed from order history.. strange.

Ditto. Not just strange … bad manners – particularly since I got a detailed email about why Not Your Average Bible Study was shipped without the 2 Peter-Jude resource.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616669#Comment_616669

In a recent Supreme Court ruling, It was determined that if an individual (Or a Company) "Sincerely Believes" in the stance they are taking, They should be allowed to do so. Another person's sincere beliefs are NOT enough to allow them control over my decisions.....or Beliefs. We all must work out our own Salvation...."Christianity."

That works both directions. <--->

Bob Pritchett

I'm sorry for the delayed clarification.

Apparently the situation is that these books simply haven't been written. They've been planned for a while, but manuscripts haven't yet been returned to the publisher and in the course of a regular status update on various licensed titles it was decided to simply remove them from the list of announced/licensed titles until they were closer to actually done being written -- let alone edited, published, etc.

There's no big issue here, and no problem with the publisher. I think we probably could have written a better description of the problem in the email, but this is a case of multi-party communication. Even now I don't really know the status of each manuscript -- that's an internal thing between the author and publisher -- and the person who got the news from the publisher told someone in content production scheduling, and it got to marketing, and no one had the details so they just lumped it in with 'licensing issues'.

Sorry for the confusion.

-- Bob

Alex Scott

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616652#Comment_616652

I still believe Zondervan is not operated by Christians, but by worldly people who are just interested in making money off of religious literature!

You are absolutely right DAL. Years ago, in the 1970s and 80s It was a great company and I got most of my language books from them. Then it was sold and since then it's all about making money. The whole NIV thing is a good example. It's NOT a good translation it's one of the most popular only because of their marketing tactics. In the bookstores where I live there's little else - shelves and shelves of NIV and Zondervan materials with little else available. You have to special order almost any other translation besides the NIV or KJV. That's not normal supply and demand - that's the result of some underhanded marketing strategies.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616645#Comment_616645

Rupert Murdoch owns news corps, owns harper colins, which owns Zondervan. Murdoch is a multi-gazzillionaire. Little wonder he's going to be about the bottom line.

I understand that business is business, and it would be unfair to blame Logos alone for such copyright negotiation failures. No doubt both sides are doing what they feel in in their financial best interest. There are so many things that we don't know in such matters, and I trust the Logos people.

That said and acknowledged, this is most disappointing. It confirms a conclusion I came to not very long ago. I cannot rely solely on Logos for my electronic Bible study resources. While there is a convenience in having all my resources working together in Logos, it is not essential. Both price and availability are also major factors. And I need to explore what is the best other software to complement my extensive Logos library.

After all, business is business for me, too.

This has a totally different ring to me. I've come to distrust publishers. To a large extent they get paid for services they no longer deliver and/or are no longer needed. They don't care for authors (though not all of these have realized that) and they care even less for readers - the least they care about is their products i.e. the resources we want to read. After all, every dollar spent on a backlist product is a dollar less spent on this years' shiny new product. Thus the publishers not only like but actively propagate the "gap of the 20th century", orphaned works and outrageous licencing models. They use all kind of lobbyism, illegal contracts and outright lies to keep their hands on the money. The whole thing with "difficult licence rights situations" has been brought about and sustained by publishers and other rights holders who want to maximize profits by artificially separating markets - even in places where it should be illegal to do so, such as in the EU.

I participated in the recent EU project to gain feedback on the state of copyright in the EU and potential developments. The result of ten-thousands of voices curated in a 100pages report is simply that there's a big divide: publishers and rights-owners on the one side and nearly everybody else [including the professional archives] on the other side. The publishers are playing this from a position of might (and might is right and business is business, you say).

These guys only understand money. So when we go about and buy B&H products from WordSearch, Moody products from the next dead-tree-store and Zondervan products from a Neo-PRADIS-soon-to-come, they will pat themselves on their shoulders and believe they did everything right. In the end this may kill Logos. Nope. Not with me. I will buy WBC 32 in Logos or I won't buy it. If Zondervan thinks they don't want to sell me a commentary on Logos, then perhaps Tyndale or IVP will.

"Business is business"? It seems that publishers are rapidly losing trust and this impacts my intentions on doing business with them.

I don't want them to sell me the same product over and over again because they "invent" a publisher-based digital platform and let it die again.

I don't want them to sell me a licence to a product and then go back and never deliver the files to Logos for producing the resource (yes, I can't read a single character of Hebrew, nevertheless I bought BHQ in course of my SESB CD-ROM and I blame the publisher on not giving me what I paid for years ago).

In former times, business meant keeping contracts, even if they were spoken words over a handshake. Going back on their contracts or letters of intent with Logos may keep the bargaining power up for a publisher, but it tells me of an attitude I don't want to support with my money.

(rant off)

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616607#Comment_616607

Well Given that Word was promising the Acts volume as "immenent" 10 years ago when we used to distribute the dead-tree versions - I think time did need called on the prepub.

Shame as I was looking forward to it

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616748#Comment_616748

Apparently the situation is that these books simply haven't been written. They've been planned for a while, but manuscripts haven't yet been returned to the publisher and in the course of a regular status update on various licensed titles it was decided to simply remove them from the list of announced/licensed titles until they were closer to actually done being written -- let alone edited, published, etc.

There's no big issue here, and no problem with the publisher. I think we probably could have written a better description of the problem in the email, but this is a case of multi-party communication. Even now I don't really know the status of each manuscript -- that's an internal thing between the author and publisher -- and the person who got the news from the publisher told someone in content production scheduling, and it got to marketing, and no one had the details so they just lumped it in with 'licensing issues'.

Thanks Bob for clarifying!

I'm extremely happy about your confirmation that there's no issue with the publisher. Wish it were so for all of them!

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616748#Comment_616748

Apparently the situation is that these books simply haven't been written. They've been planned for a while, but manuscripts haven't yet been returned to the publisher and in the course of a regular status update on various licensed titles it was decided to simply remove them from the list of announced/licensed titles until they were closer to actually done being written -- let alone edited, published, etc.

Thanks for re-clarifying this Bob. As you move forward, I can imagine that this experience may cause you to look at other works that have not yet been received by the publisher so that there isn't this kind of issue in the future.

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616748#Comment_616748

I'm sorry for the delayed clarification.

Apparently the situation is that these books simply haven't been written. They've been planned for a while, but manuscripts haven't yet been returned to the publisher and in the course of a regular status update on various licensed titles it was decided to simply remove them from the list of announced/licensed titles until they were closer to actually done being written -- let alone edited, published, etc.

There's no big issue here, and no problem with the publisher. I think we probably could have written a better description of the problem in the email, but this is a case of multi-party communication. Even now I don't really know the status of each manuscript -- that's an internal thing between the author and publisher -- and the person who got the news from the publisher told someone in content production scheduling, and it got to marketing, and no one had the details so they just lumped it in with 'licensing issues'.

Sorry for the confusion.

-- Bob

Bob

Thanks for the clarification.

Every blessing

Alan

Kaj

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616798#Comment_616798

Still I don't fully get it. I can see that WBC on Acts hasn't been written yet. But that doesn't apply to the volumes on Job. I did a pre-pub order on WBC 18B: Job 38-42, which is obviously already written as it is available in hardcover ;-) So what is the story on that volume being withdrawn from pre-pub?

HansK

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616816#Comment_616816

Still I don't fully get it. I can see that WBC on Acts hasn't been written yet. But that doesn't apply to the volumes on Job. I did a pre-pub order on WBC 18B: Job 38-42, which is obviously already written as it is available in hardcover ;-) So what is the story on that volume being withdrawn from pre-pub?

You already have that volume, its called the Book of Bob in Logos.

Good question!

[:D]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616833#Comment_616833

Pre-pubs for books not written yet. Been there done that. How about purchased volumes not written yet and well past promise dates (e.g. OT Discourse). Or promised datasets years ago.

I'm wondering if the pre-pub concept could be used to suggest books for authors to write. Maybe go ahead with a suggested price, table of contents, etc. Sort of like the Hebrews volume that presumably still needs a translator.

Tom Reynolds

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616843#Comment_616843

I finally received the email today. Still a little confused because, as mentioned, the Job volume is already out and on top of that the email said that it is Volume 18a: Job 21–37 which was cancelled but I already have that!

Schumitinu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/617853#Comment_617853

Word Biblical Commentary, Volume 18B: Job 38–42 is back on pre-pub again:

https://www.logos.com/product/16809/word-biblical-commentary-volume-18b-job-38-42

Tom Reynolds

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/675451#Comment_675451

Indeed, and it remembers that I pre-ordered it on Jan 20, 2012. - Like an Elephant (TM)