5.3 Beta 1 Warning
Now that 5.2b RC1 has been released, we're preparing for the release of 5.3 Beta 1 (which is not available yet but coming soon).
5.3 Beta 1 has a lot of major changes under-the-hood, and could potentially be unstable. These changes don't dramatically impact the UI, but are laying the foundation for future improvements in performance, scalability and functionality.
We recommend caution when installing this beta; as the beta testing warnings already state, it should be installed on a dedicated testing computer. We've been running these changes internally for several months without problems, but your system may be sufficiently different from our test computers that you could experience crashes or other problems.
If you don't want to be an early beta tester, you may wish to run "set update channel to default" right now to ensure that your system doesn't automatically download the beta.
Note that as previously announced] (and then amended for OS X 10.8) Logos 5.3 requires Windows 7 SP1 or Mac OS X 10.9 or later.
Here's what's changing:
- 64 Bit. Logos is now a 64-bit program (for all Mac users, and for most Windows users). There isn't a separate installer; the program will automatically install the 64-bit version if your OS is capable of running it.
- Code rewrite. A core component was rewritten in C# and native C++ for greater cross-platform support and performance. This has introduced a large amount of completely new code.
- Memory-mapped I/O. Many Logos databases are now accessed through a technology known as "memory-mapped I/O"; while this should be faster, it's completely new code.
- Logos resource display. The internals of the resource display were rewritten to support EXCITING NEW FEATURE.
- New C++ compilers. The code is now compiled with the newest C++ compilers on both Windows and Mac.
The goal of these changes is to improve the foundation of Logos 5 without changing the user experience. However, since this is introducing a lot of completely new code, there may be (potentially significant) regressions. Please install with caution.
Comments
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Greetings Bradley;
I am looking forward to testing this. A question I have is bullet point 4, which was answered by highlighting the line. [:)]
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That all sounds exciting--you're actually enticing me to join the beta channel!
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This is great news. The willingness to do refactoring is always a positive sign. (And I'm looking forward to the exciting new feature, too! [:)])
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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While I don't dabble in the beta versions, this announcement is very encouraging to me. To think it was under wraps for a few months. Well done!
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Excited about this
Any plans for multi-threaded codes to take advantage of multi-core processors?L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Hi Bradley
Sounds exciting, looking forward to it.
Graham
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abondservant said:
Any plans for multi-threaded codes to take advantage of multi-core processors?
Logos is already multi-threaded.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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abondservant said:
Any plans for multi-threaded codes to take advantage of multi-core processors?
The app has been multithreaded since the launch of Logos 4.0; is there some specific use case where you think it could use more cores?
I have a 12-core CPU, so 79% means that 9 of them are maxed out. [:)]
(Note that Windows and WPF only allow a single thread to manipulate UI elements. Thus, even though the app generates all the guide sections in parallel in the background, it's bottlenecked on the UI thread to display them to you. This isn't something we can easily work around.)
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Wow! +1 on all those points. That's an impressive amount of work for a point release. I realize some of those changes were probably forked a while back, but that's still an impressive turnaround. Looking forward to breaking it soon. [:)]
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Nice. I've never seen utilization that high - even during indexing on my octocore. Just assumed you were not doing that yet.Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:abondservant said:Any plans for multi-threaded codes to take advantage of multi-core processors?
The app has been multithreaded since the launch of Logos 4.0; is there some specific use case where you think it could use more cores?
I have a 12-core CPU, so 79% means that 9 of them are maxed out.
(Note that Windows and WPF only allow a single thread to manipulate UI elements. Thus, even though the app generates all the guide sections in parallel in the background, it's bottlenecked on the UI thread to display them to you. This isn't something we can easily work around.)
though on start, I've seen it spike to 30% and the indexer uses up to 45% apparently.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Should we take some pre-x64 benchmarks to see if there is any change?
Maybe search for: The NEAR AndL2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Logos is now a 64-bit program
Cheeky request: How about you can remove the 100 page export limit so we can fully test how Logos handles high RAM demands?
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Logos is now a 64-bit program
Cheeky request: How about you can remove the 100 page export limit so we can fully test how Logos handles high RAM demands?
They could make it a command to unlock that feature: "ipromisenottoinfringecopyrightthisisonlyforspaceshifting"
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It sounds very exciting... I have limited space on my MacBook Pro so I will not be doing the beta.. but can hardly wait till the new 64 bit stable version of Verbum to get released... This beta would lead me to believe the 5.3 will be only a few weeks or couple months at the most off. Good Luck, and thanks for the hard work.
-Dan
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Sounds exciting. I am going to create a new Windows User Account to be able to test this new Beta. Thanks Bradley for the announcement.
Bohuslav
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I won't mess with the 5.3 beta 1 but I love where this is heading. I like L5 on my retina MBP since the last update, but 5.3 sounds like a major bump.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
New C++ compilers. The code is now compiled with the newest C++ compilers on both Windows and Mac.
Meaning, not fully debugged[:D].
Do these apply to the 32-bit Windows version?
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:64 Bit. Logos is now a 64-bit program (for all Mac users, and for most Windows users).
Exciting.
How much extra disk space will a 64-bit installation now require e.g. 20%, 30%, or more?
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Memory-mapped I/O. Many Logos databases are now accessed through a technology known as "memory-mapped I/O"; while this should be faster, it's completely new code.
It's encouraging that you have been running the code for several months without problems. I'm reading the disadvantages at http://sqlite.org/mmap.html:-
- Do #1 and #2 affect automatic recovery of corrupt databases?
- Any impact of #3?
- Does #5 mean that db's cannot be truncated on the drive because of this unused space?
Will "Out of memory" exceptions be likely with this new feature?
Will this exception be less likely to occur in WPF/.NET, and does it ask for a larger contiguous block of address space with a 64-bit app?
Will we have to re-index resources for 64-bit (or because of SQLite)?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Regarding multi-threaded operations on indexing.
I know in the past that function has been throttled to 4 threads due to assumptions about disk and SSD performance.
Technology on that front continues to rapidly advance.
Would logos consider re-visiting that issue and allow for more concurrent processing when the I/O subsystems can sustain that?
I have a PCI plug SSD which bypasses latency and throughput limits of SATA.
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Dave Hooton said:
Meaning, not fully debugged
.Do these apply to the 32-bit Windows version?
Yes; all of the changes (except, of course, 64-bit binaries) apply to the 32-bit Windows version.
Dave Hooton said:How much extra disk space will a 64-bit installation now require e.g. 20%, 30%, or more?
About 10% (that's the binary files in the "System" folder).
Dave Hooton said:It's encouraging that you have been running the code for several months without problems. I'm reading the disadvantages at http://sqlite.org/mmap.html:-
- Do #1 and #2 affect automatic recovery of corrupt databases?
- Any impact of #3?
- Does #5 mean that db's cannot be truncated on the drive because of this unused space?
- #1 is mitigated by the fact that Logos 5 is primarily managed code (i.e., .NET) so stray pointers are exceedingly rare. #2 is a non-issue because the .NET wrapper for SQLite converts SQLite's recoverable disk I/O errors into unrecoverable exceptions anyway. On the whole, this won't impact automatic recovery.
- None is expected. Although Logos and the Indexer can run simultaneously, they're basically never updating the same files. In the case where the Indexer is updating shared files, Logos puts up the "Preparing your library" screen and waits for it to finish.
- DBs will not be truncated, but the space inside them will be used more efficiently when the "VACUUM" command is used. We don't see this as a big problem because generally our databases only ever grow in size.
Dave Hooton said:Will "Out of memory" exceptions be likely with this new feature?
We'll have to wait and see, but I expect that they will be greatly reduced.
Dave Hooton said:Will this exception be less likely to occur in WPF/.NET, and does it ask for a larger contiguous block of address space with a 64-bit app?
That's really an implementation detail of the Microsoft .NET JITter and GC, so I can't say for sure one way or the other.
Dave Hooton said:Will we have to re-index resources for 64-bit (or because of SQLite)?
No.
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Mr. Simple said:
Would logos consider re-visiting that issue and allow for more concurrent processing when the I/O subsystems can sustain that?
Yes, we want to revisit this, but it won't be in 5.3 Beta 1.
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tkx
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Thanks for the information, Bradley.
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Dave Hooton said:Will this exception be less likely to occur in WPF/.NET, and does it ask for a larger contiguous block of address space with a 64-bit app?
That's really an implementation detail of the Microsoft .NET JITter and GC, so I can't say for sure one way or the other.
I was referring to a previous post and wondering if .NET allocates more than 150 MB for a 64-bit app.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
I am going to create a new Windows User Account to be able to test this new Beta.
Well, I won't do a new Windows User Account, but am creating a new boot partition for Mac OS 10.9 [;)]
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Jack Caviness said:Bohuslav Wojnar said:
I am going to create a new Windows User Account to be able to test this new Beta.
Well, I won't do a new Windows User Account, but am creating a new boot partition for Mac OS 10.9
For Windows 7, my older laptop will initially have stable Logos 5.2b & Verbum 5.2b while newer laptop has beta 5.3 with both laptops using SSD's (with write speed greater than 500 MB/sec).
For OS X, am downloading OS X Yosemite Beta 1 for beta use of Logos 5.3 & Verbum 5.3; downloading 5.07 GB takes many hours. Thankful for new SSD in 27" iMac.
Public OS X Yosemite Beta 1 => http://www.idownloadblog.com/2014/07/24/public-yosemite-beta-fix/ is available.
Looking forward to trying Yosemite's dark theme => http://www.idownloadblog.com/2014/06/17/how-to-dark-mode-yosemite-beta-2/ while dreaming about theme(s) for Logos and Verbum => https://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-5/suggestions/6120060-add-themes-to-personalize-colors-colours-and-impro
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Mark Barnes said:Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Logos is now a 64-bit program
Cheeky request: How about you can remove the 100 page export limit so we can fully test how Logos handles high RAM demands?
[Y]
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
I had been thinking about more memory, but now I will upgrade from 4 GB to 8 GB on laptop with SSD.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Are we days or weeks away? Inquiring minds want to know. [:)]
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
alabama24 said:
Are we days or weeks away? Inquiring minds want to know.
My guess is that we're just waiting for 5.2b to be released. Stop finding bugs in the release candidates, people! [:P]
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Bring it on! [:D]
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Please release it. The suspense. [:D]
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Thank you all you brave bleeding edgers. I am super excited about 64-bit Logos (Verbum actually) but no longer do beta. But I am hoping several weeks after you get 5.3 we will get it. I would do beta still but my MBP has not the room for two installations so I will stick to the stable.
-Dan
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Dave Hooton said:
I had been thinking about more memory, but now I will upgrade from 4 GB to 8 GB on laptop with SSD.
Done, but I'm glad I took the laptop with me because the first lot of RAM wouldn't boot the computer. The surprise was that the Windows Experience Index for Memory jumped from 5.9 to 6.8 (running at the same frequency and latencies)!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Unfortunately, some of us cannot benefit from Logos using more Ram. My mother board is maxed out with 4 GB of ram and right now I have used up 71% with just one tab in Safari and an empty layout in Logos.
When I use the software, my ram peaks to 88% or higher. CPU is Dual core 3.4 Ghz. The Ssd saves me on this machine which is the preferred one to work with.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Todd Phillips said:alabama24 said:
Are we days or weeks away? Inquiring minds want to know.
My guess is that we're just waiting for 5.2b to be released. Stop finding bugs in the release candidates, people!
Yay! 5.2b was just released to the stable channel. Let's go, new beta!
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
We recommend caution when installing this beta; as the beta testing warnings already state, it should be installed on a dedicated testing computer. We've been running these changes internally for several months without problems, but your system may be sufficiently different from our test computers that you could experience crashes or other problems.
Since we can't ask questions on the "beta testing warnings" post I'll ask here. Does using the beta on my standard account put my cloud data at risk? For instance, could my notes resources be corrupted or my Favorites folders become unusable? I would lose a lot of work and research if folders in my Favorites were erased.
Could the beta upload a layout which would compromise my non-beta desktops which happen to be set to sync to 'Most recent layout - any'?
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David A Egolf said:
Does using the beta on my standard account put my cloud data at risk? For instance, could my notes resources be corrupted or my Favorites folders become unusable? I would lose a lot of work and research if folders in my Favorites were erased.
David A Egolf said:Could the beta upload a layout which would compromise my non-beta desktops which happen to be set to sync to 'Most recent layout - any'?
All these are possible with a beta e.g. I've experienced corrupt layouts, but the biggest risk is experiencing a bug that prevents you completing your crucial study or sermon preparation for a few days. I don't think anyone has experienced complete loss of data.
So you should never run a beta as your primary/sole installation and if you can use a secondary Logos account then you have reduced your risk even further.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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After two years of beta testing I have not experienced any of these issues that Dave has (Praise God).
Though I have seen others experience them. I post only to demonstrate that one can beta test and escape such corruptions.
Needing to re-install a few times aside, beta testing has been relatively problem free.
Though I do have two computers using Logos... So if one is down, the other is not (and is still running the stable version.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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David A Egolf said:
Does using the beta on my standard account put my cloud data at risk? For instance, could my notes resources be corrupted or my Favorites folders become unusable?
This has happened occasionally in the past, but (a) it's only happed [to my knowledge] when a new version of sync has been part of the beta testing, and (b) Logos have always worked very hard to restore data for individual beta testers.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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It has been almost two weeks since Bradley made the announcement. Any chance of 5.3 Beta 1 being released tomorrow? Hoping for speed increases on a machine that has maxed its ram out at 4 GB.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Lynden Williams said:
Any chance of 5.3 Beta 1 being released tomorrow?
It's unlikely. We're working out some final kinks in the installer (which is usually the last part to be tested).
Our current installer works well on a clean machine, but doesn't correctly upgrade 5.2b in-place. While we'd love to put "Only install this on a fresh machine" in the Release Notes, and have everyone read and follow those instructions, there are probably far too many existing machines still set to check the "beta" channel to make that a feasible plan.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Our current installer works well on a clean machine, but doesn't correctly upgrade 5.2b in-place.
Yes, you probably have to keep the resources but nuke everything else!
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Lee said:
but nuke everything else
No, all databases can be upgraded in-place.
The issue is ensuring that all 32-bit DLLs get replaced with the corresponding 64-bit version, including Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime DLLs and DirectX Runtime DLLs.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
No, all databases can be upgraded in-place.
The issue is ensuring that all 32-bit DLLs get replaced with the corresponding 64-bit version, including Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime DLLs and DirectX Runtime DLLs.
That's good news. That mean no re-indexing. The C++ and DX runtimes will be a bear. I'd be tempted to uninstall and reinstall, even if you had a working solution.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
The issue is ensuring that all 32-bit DLLs get replaced with the corresponding 64-bit version, including Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime DLLs and DirectX Runtime DLLs.
Does this mean we cannot have a 32-bit and a 64-bit installation on the same machine, or will there be two Prerequisites; one for x86 and the other for x64?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
will there be two Prerequisites; one for x86 and the other for x64?
There will be two.
Dave Hooton said:Does this mean we cannot have a 32-bit and a 64-bit installation on the same machine
You should be able to, but I guess we'll find out in the beta. [:)]
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Dave Hooton said:
Does this mean we cannot have a 32-bit and a 64-bit installation on the same machine
You should be able to, but I guess we'll find out in the beta.
Yes we will. I run a backup account which will have the current gold release on it, and my main account runs the beta (contra to suggestions - but that ensures regular beta usage.)
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
TCBlack said:
I run a backup account which will have the current gold release on it, and my main account runs the beta (contra to suggestions - but that ensures regular beta usage.)
Have Logos on two differentt machines. The beta runs on the desktop because I use it more often thanks to Ssd. So I have trouble telling what the stable has at any given time if away from the machine. I seldom use it.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Same Lynden.
The exception will be when they implement PB syncing. I'll (make a full back up first of pbs and logos files) install the beta on bothL2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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