Help for searching for Hebrew "redeemer" and "restorer"

Hi, I'm studying the book of Ruth (specifically Ruth 4:14-15) and was wanting to know how often the words for redeemer (גאל) and restorer (שׁוב) occurred close to each other.

I constructed this proximity search:

<Lemma = lbs/he/שׁוב> WITHIN 20 WORDS <Lemma = lbs/he/גאל:1> and searched in the ESV.

However, my results do NOT include Ruth 4:14-15, although the words are within that search frame. Do you know if it is because it spans two verses that it doesn't show up? If that is the case, is there any way to get around this limitation?

Thanks,

Rich

(I also was interested in searching for the themes of hesed and redeemer that occur close to each other, but have the same problem. They often are separated by one verse or two, although it's in the same thought pattern.)

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David P. Moore

Rich, these threads may or may not help, but thought I would share them:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/81520/570446.aspx

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/30768/227832.aspx#227832

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/59240/421924.aspx#421924

Other than what solutions are shared above, the only this I can think of is to try using Basic search with your Bible as the book to be searched.

RichB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/620694#Comment_620694

Thank you so much! I didn't have the right question to search for this in the forums, but seems like others have had the same thing. However, it doesn't *quite* fit the bill, because I can't figure out why the very two words that I'm looking for don't end up in the results. It does offer me much more than my previous search, but not the original passage! In any event, it works better than what I had. Does it mean I'm missing more hits? Or just that one?

If anyone else can figure out why my new basic bible search using the lemmas does not find my original passage (Ruth 4:14-15), I would appreciate it. Thank you!

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/620694#Comment_620694

Other than what solutions are shared above, the only this I can think of is to try using Basic search with your Bible as the book to be searched

Using a Basic Search will indeed show results that span verses, but the 20 WORD separation will give many spurious results. I suggest 10 WORDS for the more meaningful results.

RichB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/620698#Comment_620698

Actually, in this case there aren't that many results, which is why I went fishing with 20 words. Can you think of a reason why the passage in Ruth 4:14-15 doesn't show up in the hit list using my search phrase as a basic bible search in ESV?

¹⁴Then the women said to Naomi, “Blessed be the Lord, who has not left you this day without a redeemer, and may his name be renowned in Israel! ¹⁵He shall be to you a restorer of life and a nourisher of your old age, for your daughter-in-law who loves you, who is more to you than seven sons, has given birth to him.”

I don't know any Hebrew. Could it be because when you right-click on "restorer" that it has an additional preposition attached to it? I'm just guessing at this point.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/620701#Comment_620701

Can you think of a reason why the passage in Ruth 4:14-15 doesn't show up in the hit list using my search phrase as a basic bible search in ESV?

Basic Search for English words finds Ruth 4:14-15 in ESV

Keep Smiling [:)]

RichB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/620704#Comment_620704

Thanks! I guess I was assuming that searching for the lemmas would give me a more accurate search, since the Hebrew word used for "restorer" is used over 1000 times in the OT. And it really isn't a one-to-one translation. It has a lot of different translations (return, turn back, restore, etc.), so I was trying catch all the nuances of that. Any reasons as to why a seemingly broader search wouldn't yield the desired result?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/620706#Comment_620706

When a word is not being picked up under the expected lemma, this is how you check what lemma it does appear under:

RichB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/620709#Comment_620709

My original search term did include that lemma:

<Lemma = lbs/he/שׁוב> WITHIN 20 WORDS <Lemma = lbs/he/גאל:1>

When I ran the lemma search for "redeemer" alone, the bible search versus the basic search, I found the basic search lacking:

Am I doing something wrong? Or perhaps misunderstanding the purpose of each of the search functions?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/620717#Comment_620717

are the match case and match all forms set identically in the 2 searches?

RichB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/620718#Comment_620718

They are both set to "Match all word forms". (I had forgotten to check! Thanks for the reminder).

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/620719#Comment_620719

Does this explain it? Note the counts match

RichB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/620718#Comment_620718

Got it! In the basic search, when I clicked on the result *link*, then all those verses were highlighted within the entire passage. In the bible search, every hit is listed as a result. OK, I think I'm getting this. Thank you so much! I have a lot of work now to do. [:)] Good stuff.

Beloved Amodeo

<Lemma = lbs/he/שׁוב> WITHIN 20 WORDS <Lemma = lbs/he/גאל:1> and searched in the ESV.

However, my results do NOT include Ruth 4:14-15, although the words are within that search frame. Do you know if it is because it spans two verses that it doesn't show up? If that is the case, is there any way to get around this limitation?

Rich,

You have asked some very important questions and made some very good observations. And I believe you have uncovered a bug or incorrectly tagged portion of the program. Also your interest in chesed brings me great pleasure; it is one of my favorite concepts in all of the bible. A study on this subject should return great reward for you.

Now, to your questions. You should note that Bible Search is limited by verse whereas Basic Search is not. Therefor in a proximity Search where your search is to extend beyond the verse range you should use Basic Search.

That being said, Ruth 4.14-15 should appear among the hits and it does not; this should be reported. Finally, as you have noted Ruth is a short book so searching for themes and ideas separately, in other words, searching on redeemer, then restorer and then chesed; then observing the results is just as effective as combining the terms in proximity searches. Hint: do a proximity Search on your themes throughout the entire Hebrew bible. I think you will be pleased with what you find.

-Beloved

RichB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/620801#Comment_620801

Also your interest in chesed brings me great pleasure; it is one of my favorite concepts in all of the bible. A study on this subject should return great reward for you.

Thank you, Beloved! As I was preparing a message on Ruth 2, I stumbled across 'chesed'. It was as if I were walking around under a moonless night sky and stubbed my toe on something. Expecting a large rock, I looked up, only to find myself bumping into a mountain! As I dug more, it was pure delight and fascination. The congregation fell in love with 'chesed' as well (I suppose there's a pun in there if you look for it). And having Boaz's actions exemplifying 'chesed' only fanned the flame (going above the call of duty in caring for Ruth in Chapter 2 and later). I intend to return to that theme for my own study when I'm finished with our series on the book of Ruth.

- Rich

Beloved Amodeo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/620863#Comment_620863

I stumbled across 'chesed'. It was as if I were walking around under a moonless night sky and stubbed my toe on something. Expecting a large rock, I looked up, only to find myself bumping into a mountain!

Thank you RichB,

I will be eagerly awaiting your future posts. My encounter with chesed was in what I was expecting but did not find. I was reading from my favorite OT book the psalms and meditating on a psalm, I don't remember which one, and was struck by the absence of the word love, since David obviously loved God very much. It was then I encountered this vast concept of "steadfast love" or "loving kindness" which was everywhere in the psalms. Christ taught on this subject to the Pharisees quoting Hos6.6. I'll let you discover where he does this. I'm so excited for you my brother! Building a testimony on this covenant love is to walk in the path of our Savior and to plumb the depths of God's redeeming love for us. Thanks again for your thoughtful post.

-Beloved