Logos only lets your transfer book Licenses once???
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Knowing several Logos personal, I sincerely doubt it. I hope that is tongue in cheek.David Dobbs said:Great. My name is now a curse word around logos headquarters.
Misunderstandings happen David. Welcome to ministry by the way, where everything you do and say will be misconstrued and eventually used against you.
On the other hand, I am willing to stretch out my hand and expect the best of you.
Be at peace.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
If you don't have anyone in mind already I am interested. Catholic resources or no, I'm definitely interested. Whether we agree on certain things or no, we still have a lot of years of shared history and development. Sometimes a contrasting note causes one to think differently. Anyway, just a thought.Denise said:But a teensy-bit more seriously, I'd planned on dumping (i.e. giving it away) my library in the near future. I'd assumed since my interests are pretty nutty, the new owner would probably want to kind of 'clean up' the mess. Thus the new non-policy-change is going to present significant problems!
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Super.Tramp said:
Once transferred, items may not be transferred again.
This sounds a like a new policy to me, despite what Bob has stated throughout this thread. It is not that I don't trust that Bob and Logos will do the right thing, but there does seem to be mixed messages circulating at Logos. If the CS signature quoted by Super.Tramp is included in all new license transfers, then it seems that Logos is communicating a policy that I have not previously seen communicated. I think the angst of this thread is that people were buying Logos resources with the assumption that there was not a one-time transfer limit. I am all for curtailing abuses and adding some amount of friction, but the statement "Once transferred, items may not be transferred again" seems excessive in light of the fact that the previous message of Logos was that licenses were simply transferrable. I assume that most people do not want to see Logos being abused, but it is true that a license is devalued if it is sold as non-transferable because the one transfer limit is used up. Even if Logos does not actually abide by their statement "Once transferred, items may not be transferred again," they are still communicating an idea that is opposed to previous policy.
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Denise said:
ST ... let's make it clear yet one more time.
Logos policy has not changed.
And if the CS Rep isn't a loose canon, I must be an abuser. [^o)]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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David Dobbs said:
Great. My name is now a curse word around logos headquarters.
I am really am sorry Guys for all the frustration I have caused. I don't think you were the source. catalyst maybe, but not the source.
Logos & and Bob aren't going to use your name as a curse either - from what I know of them, they are willing to let bygones be bygones. Things are sorted now I should think.
Married couples only fight when they still love each other right? its when the fighting stops you have to worry. Same here, you were excited, you love logos, and then you were surprised by something. You still love logos. Bob still loves helping you study the bible better... So it works.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Bob Pritchett said:
With all that said, in the end we continue to do everything we can for our customers. We do the tedious license transfers. We override the policies.
Bob Pritchett said:
If the friction gets in your way, ask for an exception or appeal to a manager or to me -- we will always do the right thing.It sounds like the one transfer rule is more like the pirates code.
More of a guideline really.
Pirates code explanation - from the movie pirates of the Caribbean.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Super.Tramp said:Paul C said:
Why are we proposing solutions for a problem that DOES NOT exist? Bob said there has been no change in the policy.
I will tell you why it IS broken. ......I received the same email when I transferred a resource last week.
" Note: Licenses can only be transferred individually if they were sold individually, meaning if the book being transferred was sold as part of a larger package (e.g. “Scholar’s Library), the entire package will be transferred. Once transferred, items may not be transferred again. "
There are only three ways I can interpret that note;
- Logos views me as an abuser
- Steve Workman in Customer Service is unilaterally gung-ho for protecting Logos
- There has been a new policy instituted, indeed
Something is broken and I want it fixed.
I have theoretically paid for the 1984 NIV 4 times (there was no dynamic pricing involved in any collection. That being said I never wanted to abuse the system but at one time told someone he could buy my Concordia self study bible with its NIV and pay the transfer and provide me with the money to replace the bundled resource. He said he would call Logos but it never happened. My guess is selling a resource that retailed for $30 was a massive amount of work and CS told him it could not be done. If it takes 5 hours to manually do all this I fully understand why Logos wishes to discourage this. That said it has always been in the back of my mind that if times got too tough I could sell off some of my less used large resources. I do understand where Bob is coming from, but I always had thought that Logos resources were more expensive not because of tagging alone but because one could sell them (I had always known Bundle A must be sold intact, not minus the book you most want from bundle A). With the one exception mentioned above I have never tried to sell anything from Logos and I have been leery looking in the secondhand market for Logos works because of possible scammers (not saying I have found any but it is good to be cautious). I am deeply saddened to hear that some people have been trying to scam the system. Perhaps I have been guilty of it once or twice (two times I have used Logos on a friends computer by installing it there, using it and not deleting it myself, both times I encouraged the one friend and my mother in law to use it for a week or two before deleting it to see what Logos has to offer. My mother in law deleted it within the week and my friend in the nursing home within a month, both said it was far more than they needed. In those two cases I did in fact do wrong not deleting it right away. I had done that not to try to scam Logos but only to give them a chance to try Logos to see if they would like it themselves (I did actually buy my sister-in-law a Collegeville Reference Library CDROM for a wedding gift since she was a youth pastor in her Catholic church at that time). For me the main concern is that my Logos Library may be passed on so others may benefit from it after I am gone. Now that I know that is still possible I am less anxious. The fact that it is hard to break up ones Library sell off "X collection" because I do not need it any longer is somewhat troubling but that has never been a goal of mine in the first place. I hope you can get fixed what you want fixed but for me I am fine now...
-Dan
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Cheer up. There is ample room in the Logos tent for you.David Dobbs said:Great. My name is now a curse word around logos headquarters.
I am really am sorry Guys for all the frustration I have caused. Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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OK, seeing as the offending email was indeed a piece of official communication, maybe Bob or someone at Logos can clarify once more, and then we can all move on. [Y]
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David Dobbs said:
I am really am sorry Guys for all the frustration I have caused.
David, you merely vented your frustration which is appropriate to do on the forums because we can refer you to the people at Logos who can either explain the situation to you (e.g. contractual issues that prevent dynamic pricing) or direct you to someone who can make it right.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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bowing out
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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On the previous page, I took a jab at Rapture theology. In a separate thread I questioned The calvinistic view. I didn't see your feathers ruffled over those posts. You posted in the thread I referred to...About Denise's proselytization.You know full well what I'm talking about. http://community.logos.com/forums/t/85723.aspx?PageIndex=1MJ. Smith said:Assuming this was intended as humor, you should place an appropriate emoticon on it. Otherwise it, too, can be misinterpreted and create inappropriate forum furor.
I am able to see the humor in all theologies .... Especially my own. I'm sorry you can't. If you really need emoticons, Here ya go. [:)][:D][:O][:P][;)][:(][H][A][6][8-|][:#][Y][B][8][*][st][8o|][^o)][+o(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:S][:'(][:'(][:$][:-*][:^)][|-)][G]
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Thank you.
[C][C]
[pi][pi][B][B]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I will stash this away for future reference. I can say whatever I like, as long as I insert the appropriate emoticon. Priceless![:P]
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[^o)] HHHMMMmmm [^o)]
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Well, if memory serves, there's a CP about to do something on icon-ography. This is excellent timing to demonstrate just how important visual imagery really is. True, I'm not signed up it, for fear of .... well, you know. (Since I don't use emoticons.)
And, since I keep all my images turned off (see no evil, read no evil), I'm pretty much constantly offended.
abondservant ... will keep you in mind; I've got another 'event' before I convert Logos over to a reader type platform.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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[^o)] When I inquire about your outgrown library you say: [^o)]
[^o)] But when ABS asks, He gets a much different response: [^o)]Denise said:Paul, transfer rights of 'the text' during a rapture were never spelled out clearly.
[^o)] How is it that you can post without inserting appropriate emoticons? [^o)] When I am admonished for that infraction. [^o)]Denise said:abondservant ... will keep you in mind
[:(] I feel so abused. [:(]
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Did Bob ever explain the, "Once transferred, items may not be transferred again" quote? Has it been confirmed that this is logos policy or is it not?
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Helen said:
Did Bob ever explain the, "Once transferred, items may not be transferred again" quote? Has it been confirmed that this is logos policy or is it not?
See his response in this post. https://community.logos.com/forums/p/88357/621721.aspx#621721 and this one also https://community.logos.com/forums/p/88357/621852.aspx#621852 There are a few more on that same page.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Welcome to the forums Helen.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Thanks Lynden! [:)]
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Helen said:
Did Bob ever explain the, "Once transferred, items may not be transferred again" quote? Has it been confirmed that this is logos policy or is it not?
These are the facts I have gleaned so far:
- Logos Customer Service sent me an email saying "Once transferred, items may not be transferred again"
- Bob Pritchett has said there has been no change in policy
- My Pre-Pub and Community Pricing orders have shrunk by $30,000+ this week
- Bob Pritchett has said Logos will do the right thing (Right for who? - I ask)
- Bob Pritchett has said you can will your library to an heir that can will it to another
- Logos has NOT said I can SELL you an individual license that you can then SELL
I think the lack of a guaranteed portability of resources significantly diminishes the value of all Logos resources.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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[:(]
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Super.Tramp said:Helen said:
Did Bob ever explain the, "Once transferred, items may not be transferred again" quote? Has it been confirmed that this is logos policy or is it not?
These are the facts I have gleaned so far:
- Logos Customer Service sent me an email saying "Once transferred, items may not be transferred again"
- Bob Pritchett has said there has been no change in policy
- My Pre-Pub and Community Pricing orders have shrunk by $30,000+ this week
- Bob Pritchett has said Logos will do the right thing (Right for who? - I ask)
- Bob Pritchett has said you can will your library to an heir that can will it to another
- Logos has NOT said I can SELL you an individual license that you can then SELL
I think the lack of a guaranteed portability of resources significantly diminishes the value of all Logos resources.
Bob Pritchett said:But the bottom line -- now, as always -- is that we'll do the right thing for our users.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Sorry to reopen this can of worms again. But Bob, does the "Right Thing" mean sometime logos might transfer a book license more than once and sometimes they might not depending on the situation, person, or possible abuse?
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I hope Bob answers you but I do want to add; I have purchased over $50,000 worth of resources directly from Logos. I have transferred resources to others less than 10 times. I have kept 14,600+ resources. I got the notice in an email this week. Bob has not yet told me if I am an "abuser" or if the Rep made a mistake. Hoping it is the latter.Helen said:Sorry to reopen this can of worms again. But Bob, does the "Right Thing" mean sometime logos might transfer a book license more than once and sometimes they might not depending on the situation, person, or possible abuse?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Something Does seem to be awry. If Purchasing $50,000 worth of resources and committing untold hours to the forum police doesn't warrant a couple of transfers, What would?Super.Tramp said:I have purchased over $50,000 worth of resources directly from Logos.
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Super.Tramp said:Helen said:
Did Bob ever explain the, "Once transferred, items may not be transferred again" quote? Has it been confirmed that this is logos policy or is it not?
These are the facts I have gleaned so far:
- Logos Customer Service sent me an email saying "Once transferred, items may not be transferred again"
- Bob Pritchett has said there has been no change in policy
- My Pre-Pub and Community Pricing orders have shrunk by $30,000+ this week
- Bob Pritchett has said Logos will do the right thing (Right for who? - I ask)
- Bob Pritchett has said you can will your library to an heir that can will it to another
- Logos has NOT said I can SELL you an individual license that you can then SELL
I think the lack of a guaranteed portability of resources significantly diminishes the value of all Logos resources.
Matthew,
I really think you should take this offline with Bob in a private one-on-one call. You are the veteran user and have years of experience with the company that go far beyond a customer relationship and it hurts me to see that one ill-worded mail hit you in a vulnerable spot.
Mick
NB: This thread has gone full cycle twice now - maybe Logos should close it down.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Welcome to the forums, Helen. I must say you hit the ground running. You seem very attuned to the environment. [:D]Helen said:Sorry to reopen this can of worms again. But Bob, does the "Right Thing" mean sometime logos might transfer a book license more than once and sometimes they might not depending on the situation, person, or possible abuse?
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Well, gee, Paul. Maybe I misunderstood, what with my rosary beads and spanish resources (Logos marketing seems to have narrowed me down to somewhere south of the border).
NB ... what is gained by putting the issue under the carpet? It affects anyone that rationalizes purchases (based on Logos marketing's encouragement) that their unbelievably large license-constrained library can be transfered. I guess the latest is 'when you die'.
I can't speak for anyone else obviously, but I can guarantee I'd not have purchased so heavily. Goodness was I dumb. I forecasted an unload point based on watching other older folks, so that a younger whipper-snapper could benefit.
Carpet cleaning needs good solid cleaning approaches. Not a quickie.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Of course you are right. You already made a step in that direction with Lummox. ... or whomever. Now you have an opportunity to gift another such individual. I just thought it would be cool to have an heirloom you once pored over. I certainly don't "need" any more resources. I really have enjoyed our bantering. Hopefully you will still drop by. if not, I will certainly miss you. [:(]Denise said:so that a younger whipper-snapper could benefit.
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Welcome to the forums, Helen. I must say you hit the ground running. You seem very attuned to the environment.
I am actually new to the Logos world. I don't own any software yet but I am currently being trained in how to use it. It is an excellent program. I am amazed at what it all can do. And I must confess, this topic is very interesting to me. If I am to invest a lot of money with logos, I would first like to know how the book license work. I would like to know before hand exactly what I can and can't do with my books. I do hope this topic doesn't get swept under the carpet.
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I've been mostly awk this week, so this thread was quite a doozy to come back to.
Here's my big question after reading all of this: Do we actually own a license when we buy it? If so, should we not be permitted to resell it (especially when it comes with the $20 transfer fee)? If we cannot sell it, do we own it?
I still don't understand Bob's fear of somebody buying a single resource and then passing it around the class. If the class were 20 people, then Logos would collect $400 in revenue for the transfers. As Mr. Childs pointed out, why would the class not each buy the resource and then return it within the 30 day window? Honestly, why wouldn't this hypothetical colluding class not just have one person buy the book, copy/paste the text and anything else that's needed out of it, and then have that one student return it?
I have trouble seeing how the transfer system could be abused--at least in a way that compares to the potential abuse of the return system (that one could be orders of magnitude worse). When I sell a resource, I no longer own it or have access to it. There are still the same number of total licenses that the publisher has sold (as if they've sold that many books). (And yes, I know electronic != physical books, but that's true of the distribution system too, so don't complain to me that the digital wares don't break down like physical products when you don't even have to produce the physical products in the first place.)
Final question after pondering this: is it ever doing the right thing by the customer when you exercise an "only one transfer" policy on licenses?
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A thousand pardons ... Ten thousand if you need them.[G]Lee Garrison said:0 -
Michael Childs said:
And I have even questioned some of the Good Lord's decisions from time to time. I remember just last week saying, "Lord, I don't believe I would have done that if I were you."
Know that feeling. Also know that it is a good thing that He is God and I am not [8-|]
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William Gabriel said:
I've been mostly awk this week, so this thread was quite a doozy to come back to.
Here's my big question after reading all of this: Do we actually own a license when we buy it? If so, should we not be permitted to resell it (especially when it comes with the $20 transfer fee)? If we cannot sell it, do we own it?
I still don't understand Bob's fear of somebody buying a single resource and then passing it around the class. If the class were 20 people, then Logos would collect $400 in revenue for the transfers. As Mr. Childs pointed out, why would the class not each buy the resource and then return it within the 30 day window? Honestly, why wouldn't this hypothetical colluding class not just have one person buy the book, copy/paste the text and anything else that's needed out of it, and then have that one student return it?
I have trouble seeing how the transfer system could be abused--at least in a way that compares to the potential abuse of the return system (that one could be orders of magnitude worse). When I sell a resource, I no longer own it or have access to it. There are still the same number of total licenses that the publisher has sold (as if they've sold that many books). (And yes, I know electronic != physical books, but that's true of the distribution system too, so don't complain to me that the digital wares don't break down like physical products when you don't even have to produce the physical products in the first place.)
Final question after pondering this: is it ever doing the right thing by the customer when you exercise an "only one transfer" policy on licenses?
In simplified terms, a license by its very nature does not convey an ownership interest in the subject matter of that license. The terms of the license convey terms of use regarding something that the licensor (Logos) owns to the licensee (Us). Now the terms of a license can be written in a way (unlimited license) that someone receives rights that are essentially the same as the owner of the license subject matter, but that is still something short of complete ownership. Logos' license is not an unlimited license, rather it is limited in many important ways. Restricting the ability of the licensee to transfer or sublicense the subject matter is perfectly within the right of a licensor. The question before us relates to the ambiguity regarding those transfer terms vis-à-vis Logos. It may be that we as licensees simply need to adjust our thinking and expectations, but we have become accustomed to the print model where the tangible product may be readily transferred. But even in the print model, you don't technically own the contents (the work product of the author), rather you own the physical transmission medium (the paper) that contains the contents. This is one area where digital books have a distinct disadvantage over print and it is something that I believe the entire eBook industry is going to need to address as eBooks become more prevalent.
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From what Bob has communicated, it seems to me Logos only wants to allow people to transfer whole libraries not individual books or even sets of books. Which seems ok to me, especially seeing how time consuming the transfer process is. Though I do wish it wasn't so tedious because I think the ability to transfer a book license is great perk for logos. For example, I would love to, one day, be able to give my pastor some of the books in my library but not all. Also what if I want to give my whole library to someone who already has a logos library which has many of the books that I have. I assume the redundant book licenses will just be discarded which doesn't seem fair to me. That could be thousands of dollars worth of books that could be given to someone else. Whatever logos official policy is on this issue, it would be great if that information was clearly stated. As for now it just seems a little vague to me.
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NB.Mick said:
maybe Logos should close it down
Maybe Logos should address the real issue of license portability through sales.
You should know Bob and I have emailed each other by now. My last, and yet unanswered, questions to Bob are these:
When I spoke with Customer Service requesting a license transfer, they told me a transfer email form was necessary as a "legal document." When I got that form it included the following statement,
"Once transferred, items may not be transferred again.'
If that is not a policy statement, what is it doing in a "legal document" Logos sent me? If it is not a policy statement, how am I supposed to interpret it?
I think all Logos customers should know what the policy is.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super.Tramp said:
- Bob Pritchett has said you can will your library to an heir that can will it to another
- Logos has NOT said I can SELL you an individual license that you can then SELL
ST, have you heard anything new from Logos on this? Are there any updates?
What concerns me in this digital environment is how fast access can be turned off. For the record, I do believe Bob and am totally confident in his promise "to do the right thing by the customer" BUT
things change, people die and companies get bought out. I think the assumption that resources we buy can be sold in perpetuity is naive at this point because it was only promised in a "I give you my word" kind of way on a forum, not as a written clause of an enforceable contract. This is unfortunate!
another thought:
I totally agree with logos' requirement that when resources were bought as a collection they can only be sold or transferred as a collection, and I cannot say "I want to keep this one resource and sell the rest." However, let's say I die and my heirs receive my entire library. Is it transferred as ONE collection, or my individual orders preserved and all these records passed down, so my heirs can sell/transfer single purchases, while maintaining ownership over the rest?
I am really hoping that the latter is true, but see how it can be a HUGE burden for Logos to maintain and backup this database.
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wait wait, so your library is mexican catholic? thats a whole different storyDenise said:Well, gee, Paul. Maybe I misunderstood, what with my rosary beads and spanish resources (Logos marketing seems to have narrowed me down to somewhere south of the border).
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Just kidding. I hope you are able to resolve things and are able to stick around. Not sure where we'd be without our daily dose of sarcasm
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Paul C said:
[^o)] HHHMMMmmm [^o)]
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By the way, if this thread is ever canceled, someone please start a new thread picking up where this one left off. This really is an important issue and just saying, "we will do the right thing" does not fix the problem. This discussion needs to continue until this license issue is completely resolved and clearly stated for us all to see. Everyone should understand this is not just something concerning a few but all logos book owners.
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Helen said:
By the way, if this thread is ever canceled, someone please start a new thread picking up where this one left off. This really is an important issue and just saying, "we will do the right thing" does not fix the problem. This discussion needs to continue until this license issue is completely resolved and clearly stated for us all to see. Everyone should understand this is not just something concerning a few but all logos book owners.
Logos won't delete the thread. They've only ever deleted spam threads. For any weaknesses we might be able to point out about Logos, this is not one of them--they are willing to listen and dialog through any criticism.
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William Gabriel said:
Logos won't delete the thread. They've only ever deleted spam threads. For any weaknesses we might be able to point out about Logos, this is not one of them--they are willing to listen and dialog through any criticism.
That is not true... although the threads I have seen deleted had got particularly mean spirited and or racked with theological arguments. I have not noticed that here but deletion of a thread happens now and then.
-Dan
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William Gabriel said:
they are willing to listen and dialog through any criticism.
We are waiting.
BTW: Logos is reluctant to delete any thread other than SPAM. It takes highly offensive comments and a lot of begging to get one deleted. But it does happen. (maligning Mexican Catholics is a start towards deletion)
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