Why did Logos miss that?

Hi,

I used Logos 5 to try to find all instances of πᾶν ἔθνος (sg.) in NA27, regardless of the form (genitive, dative, etc.). So I did a Word Study on ἔθνος and used the "Grammatical Relationships" which, sure enough, had an entry on πᾶς, used adjectivally with ἔθνος. I scanned through the 23 results to spot the grammatical singular instances. When I cross-examined the results with BibleWorks 9, I noticed that Logos missed Acts 2:5 and 10:35 (and both programs missed Rev 5:9 and 13:7!). Does anybody know why these instances would be dropped from the search results in Logos 5?

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George Somsel

Hi,

I used Logos 5 to try to find all instances of πᾶν ἔθνος (sg.) in NA27, regardless of the form (genitive, dative, etc.). So I did a Word Study on ἔθνος and used the "Grammatical Relationships" which, sure enough, had an entry on πᾶς, used adjectivally with ἔθνος. I scanned through the 23 results to spot the grammatical singular instances. When I cross-examined the results with BibleWorks 9, I noticed that Logos missed Acts 2:5 and 10:35 (and both programs missed Rev 5:9 and 13:7!). Does anybody know why these instances would be dropped from the search results in Logos 5?

Without knowing how you constructed your search, I can't answer your question regarding why L5 missed any reference. I ran a search using the Morphological Search and the search string "lemma:πᾶς@J?S BEFORE 1 WORD lemma:ἔθνος@N?S." This found the items you say it missed except for Re 13.7, and I can easily explain that since I didn't allow any words between the two terms whereas, as you can see (ἐπὶ πᾶσαν φυλὴν καὶ λαὸν καὶ γλῶσσαν καὶ ἔθνος) there are several words separating them. If I were to eliminate or extend the proximity requirement, I'm sure Logos would find it.

Lars Kierspel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/628374#Comment_628374

Thanks, George, that is awesome! While the "Grammatical Relationships" tool misses to catch all relevant evidence, it is great to know that the morphology search tool catches it.

Ben

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/628425#Comment_628425

I do all my language work in BW9.

I ran a search in the GNM, ".pas eqnos@n????s" (latter code is to account for the singular.

That picked up both the missing passages for me, as did ".pas eqnos" with no codes.

Ben

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/628425#Comment_628425

I do all my language work in BW9.

I ran a search in the GNM, ".pas eqnos@n????s" (latter code is to account for the singular. Greek isn't being typed, here on the board.)

That picked up both the missing passages for me, as did ".pas eqnos" with no codes.

Graham Criddle

With regard to the original query about the use of the Bible Word Study tool.

So I did a Word Study on ἔθνος and used the "Grammatical Relationships" which, sure enough, had an entry on πᾶς, used adjectivally with ἔθνος. I scanned through the 23 results to spot the grammatical singular instances. When I cross-examined the results with BibleWorks 9, I noticed that Logos missed Acts 2:5 and 10:35

I get 25 results including the two which didn't return hits for you

This is in 5.3beta 1 - what version of Logos software are you using and what is your preferred Bible?

EDIT: I've just tried the same BWS in 5.2b SR-3 and get just the 23 results with the missing two being the same as you report. My guess at the moment is that this is a resource update issue as opposed to a code change but at least we know this particular issue should be fixed in 5.3 when it ships.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/628459#Comment_628459

This is in 5.3beta 1 - what version of Logos software are you using and what is your preferred Bible?

EDIT: I've just tried the same BWS in 5.2b SR-3 and get just the 23 results with the missing two being the same as you report. My guess at the moment is that this is a resource update issue as opposed to a code change but at least we know this particular issue should be fixed in 5.3 when it ships.

And looking into this a bit further its to do with the grammatical relationships which are being used

If you hover over the line "Grammatical Relationships" you will get a Settings option. Click on that and you will see that there are two possible underlying resources used to determine grammatical relationship - Cascadia or OpenText

If you use Cascadia you get the 25 hits, if you use OpenText you get the 23.

Comparing the two sets of syntax graphs for Acts 2:5, in the Cascadia case πᾶς is modifying ἔθνος whereas in the OpenText case it is not.

EDIT: Sorry I meant to include the graphs:

Some points:

Whether or not you see both relational options will depend on which resources / base package you have
I don't believe I have changed this setting in the BWS so it is possible Logos has changed the default for the 5.3 beta but I can't confirm that

Please have a look at this and see if it makes sense / helps

Graham Criddle

and both programs missed Rev 5:9 and 13:7!

And in the Rev 5:9 case, neither set of maps has πᾶς modifying ἔθνος directly

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/628465#Comment_628465

and both programs missed Rev 5:9 and 13:7!

And in the Rev 5:9 case, neither set of maps has πᾶς modifying ἔθνος directly

Syntax Search can find Rev 5:9 and 13:7

Morph Search can also be used in LXX

Keep Smiling [:)]

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/628470#Comment_628470

and both programs missed Rev 5:9 and 13:7!

And in the Rev 5:9 case, neither set of maps has πᾶς modifying ἔθνος directly

Syntax Search can find Rev 5:9 and 13:7

Hi KS4J.

Good point and thanks for flagging that

Edit: But you need to have a much deeper understanding of the structures in order to do this as opposed to running a BWS[:)]

Graham

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/628472#Comment_628472

Edit: But you need to have a much deeper understanding of the structures in order to do this as opposed to running a BWS

Concur Syntax Search can be challenging; have learned to do Morph Search followed by examining structure so can construct Syntax Search then compare results with Morph Search.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Lars Kierspel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/628465#Comment_628465

Thanks, Graham, that is great. I did not know about the "Settings" option in the "Grammatical Relationships."

However, while I do have Cascadia Syntax Graphs of the NT in my library, it is not offered as an option in the Settings of the Grammatical Relationships. I'll tinker with it a bit. So greatful for this forum!