I just upgraded to Logos 4 platinum and was quite distressed to find that I paid money for some roman catholic resources (e.b. Pusey, etc). Do any others feel this way?
Is that ALL you got?
For heaven's sake! I want MORE Catholic resources. It is about time Logos starts providing materials to all Christians!
I don't feel distressed, no. But I do feel a bit sad for you.
Personally, I think it's a reasonable request and I wouldn't mind having some more myself for research purposes. But one needs to keep in mind the debates and theological persuasions that surround these types of issues. Logos isn't under any obligation to provide any sort of resources and if they just catered to Protestants or some smaller niche like Arminian Dispensational Protestants one still wouldn't be able to complain (since they are under no obligation to anyone for any type of resource). In that regard, one might as well replace the word "Catholic" in your sentence with the word "Mormon."
quite distressed to find that I paid money for some roman catholic resources
I suspect all of us receive resources presenting views we find to be doctrinally offensive - which doesn't mean that they are not of value - for historical or apologetic uses. But I'm surprised that you're surprised to get Catholic resources - who do you think manned the scriptoriums copying the Bible for 1500 years? But that's okay, we're willing to share.[:D]
I think if you look at all we get, with even the smallest logos 4 library, there are many books we probably will never use.
I guess you could buy each book induvidually ( see how much that costs..
Logos should have something for everyone. Even if we do not agree with their doctrines.. Plus we should study all points of view.. how else are we going to know which is correct??
who do you think manned the scriptoriums copying the Bible for 1500 years? But that's okay, we're willing to share.
I guess a little humility is out of the question??
Actually, Pusey was was not Roman Catholic, but Anglican. But to the point, you don't have to read anything by Pusey or any other author if you don't want to. Logos has to market to a broad audience: surely there are many more resources in your platinum package that are congenial to your theological position, whatever it is. I am a conservative Lutheran, but enjoy having access to the thoughts of others to compare them with the results of my own Scripture study. Not every insight into Scripture is limited to people of one persuasion. As one who teaches, it is good to have access to authors who represent other positions, too, so that if I find it necessary to criticize their conclusions I can do it fairly, and not as a result of suppositions or stereotypes or because someone else made a blanket statement about them. So study Scripture for yourself, then compare every human author with Scripture. And rejoice that you have a richness of resources that many do not have to help you with your study, even if you prefer not to read Pusey.
It is. After all, we are celebrating God's humility in His incarnation as a true human. So I can make His humility shine by having none myself [:D] It's a joke, folks, not theology. But sometimes, I can't help tweaking the extreme anti-Catholic; I generally find that if Catholics believed what they think Catholics believe, I wouldn't be Catholic either.
Maybe I'm just naive...I thought that Methodists, Dispensationalists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Episcopalians were all protestants. Aren't we still protesting the RC church?
I guess a little humility is out of the question?? It is. After all, we are celebrating God's humility in His incarnation as a true human. So I can make His humility shine by having none myself It's a joke, folks, not theology. But sometimes, I can't help tweaking the extreme anti-Catholic; I generally find that if Catholics believed what they think Catholics believe, I wouldn't be Catholic either.
It is. After all, we are celebrating God's humility in His incarnation as a true human. So I can make His humility shine by having none myself It's a joke, folks, not theology. But sometimes, I can't help tweaking the extreme anti-Catholic; I generally find that if Catholics believed what they think Catholics believe, I wouldn't be Catholic either.
You will have to forgive me. I have heard that comment so many times it just sickens me (joke or not). God is the reason I have the bible today. Not any church or organization.. He kept the OT pure even when the jews who were in charge of it went against him.. He did it for the past 2000 years, and he will do it for the next 2000 years ( if he tarries that long).
I am not anti any church.. I am anti giving God full credit where credit is due, and not being a pharisee [:P] [:)]
In order to protest something..you actually have to be against it. or consider it a threat. If my faith is against the catholic faith. it has nothing to do with the catholic church ( or any other church for that matter ) so I am not protesting that church. I just have my belief.. If they consider me protesting them. that is their problem.. Just like if I considered them protesting me, I would have an issue, not them..
either way. No one should be upset they have a book from a belief they might not agree with.. I Read the book of mormon.. How else can I know what they believe??
Bryan, clearly we have a different idea of historic protestantism, but that is not the point. I have read many catholic documents. (I was a catholic before the Lord saved me). My argument is that when we buy a logos package that contains RC resources, I suppose that some of the license money goes to RC institutions. That is what I am against. The problem is that If I want a good deal on resources (instead of purchasing them seperately), I am made to support the RC institutions.
This was part of my point earlier.
Logos is offering software,, they are not biased, so they support all views..
It would not help them, or us, to offer denominational packages, The cost would probably be hindering.. to maintain so many different packages..
Not to mention you are supporting a publisher, such as nelson of zondervan, and not an organization. Most publishers publish cross organization resources.. including catholic..
so I still do not understand your reasoning or complaint.
I have heard that comment so many times it just sickens me (joke or not)
I am sorry for offending you - I would not have made the comment if it were not Christmas day which reminds me of a Kiekregaard parable of the King in love with a peasant girl.
God is the reason I have the bible today.
I agree completely. The Church is simply an instrument used by God. What is critical is God's Word.
I am anti giving God full credit where credit is due, and not being a pharisee
I think you didn't write what you intended here. I suspect you are in favor of giving God full credit.
The problem is that If I want a good deal on resources (instead of purchasing them seperately), I am made to support the RC institutions.
Goodness, if that is true can I get a refund on the John Piper resources?
My argument is that when we buy a logos package that contains RC resources, I suppose that some of the license money goes to RC institutions. That is what I am against.
Are you, perhaps, letting personal issues interfere with the big picture? We all have license monies going to institutions we would not privately support. That is also true of tax monies - which go towards governmental efforts I find morally repugnant. Logos does not present itself as the software arm of some particular evangelical denomination; therefore, it is not appropriate to judge its offerings as if it did.
I am saying that I would like to see 2 logos editions. One catholic and one protestant, and allow us to buy the other sides resources if we choose to. Didn't logos used to have a catholic edition? Clearly they saw a seperation at one time...
Again I must ask.. I guess humility is out of the question??
ps. A protestant only version would have many books I do not agree with.. Not all so called "protestant" beliefs are the same..
Didn't logos used to have a catholic edition?
They still have Lutheran, Catholic and Jewish packages - but these are publisher relationships of add-on resources. But reference, language and theological books don't fall neatly into your divisions. It is more of a continuum. A rule of thumb I was taught by Catholic priests: for theology, go to Catholic presses; for Bible study, go to Lutheran presses; for liturgy, go to Anglican presses. I would add Orthodox presses for theology and liturgy and Jewish presses for Bible study. My point is that good scholarship is good scholarship regardless of the personal beliefs of the author and personal beliefs are a multi-dimensional continuum not distinct boxes.
I agree that protestants disagree amongst themselves, however they all agree (if they are really protestants) that they are against Rome, otherwise they are not protestants.
"for theology, go to Catholic presses" yes, for theology of works salvation
Thus was my point. just because Rome calls me a protestant. Does not mean I am a protestant. I do not protest rome any more than I protest any other denomination.
again I ask.. where is humility??
ps.. I know many catholics who disagree amoungst themselves.. what does this make them??
Didn't logos used to have a catholic edition? They still have Lutheran, Catholic and Jewish packages - but these are publisher relationships of add-on resources. But reference, language and theological books don't fall neatly into your divisions. It is more of a continuum. A rule of thumb I was taught by Catholic priests: for theology, go to Catholic presses; for Bible study, go to Lutheran presses; for liturgy, go to Anglican presses. I would add Orthodox presses for theology and liturgy and Jewish presses for Bible study. My point is that good scholarship is good scholarship regardless of the personal beliefs of the author and personal beliefs are a multi-dimensional continuum not distinct boxes.
Amen.. I might not agree with everything an author says.. does not mean I can not get something good out of his book..
This sounds like something that would be more appropriate in the Suggestions forum.
Resource bundles are what they are. The advantage is that you get the resources you want at a greater discount. The disadvantage is that you end up with some resources you don't want. That's just the way it is. If you don't like the packages Logos offers, you would do better contacting Logos directly rather than complaining about it on a forum provided mainly for discussion between Logos users.
That's why Logos needs thousands of editions. Reformed Baptist editions, Southern Baptist editions, Roman Catholic editions, sedevacantist editions, Eastern Orthodox editions, PCUSA editions, PCA editions, OPC editions, Anglican editions, Episcopalian editions, and just to make sure absolutely everyone feels fuzzy: Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Christian Scientist, and Gnostic editions.
yes, for theology of works salvation
Not in my experience - this is a frequent misconception of Protestants, and another reason to try to understand what the various positions truly are.
. I know many catholics who disagree amoungst themselves.. what does this make them??
I believe that makes them catholic (universal) as well as Catholic ... okay, I really should quit fanning the fire but a good argument is such a nice Christmas present.
. I know many catholics who disagree amoungst themselves.. what does this make them?? I believe that makes them catholic (universal) as well as Catholic ... okay, I really should quit fanning the fire but a good argument is such a nice Christmas present.
lol, well since I belong to the "universal" body of Christ, having been baptized into it by God the Holy Spirit.. does that make me catholic?? [:P]
It doesn't bother me, but then I work in the area of comparative religions. I have even used the Quran that comes with Logos on several occasions.
The Catholic resources don't seem to generate a lot of sales. For example, the community pricing on Catena Aurea: Commentary on the Four Gospels by Thomas Aquinas hasn't been able to get enough interest to even reach 50% of the purchase commitments need for production.
Speaking of which, while Yusuf Ali's is a fine translation, I wish they had Arberry's too. Maybe I'll go suggest it now.
Technically Peter, there are Lutherans (including me) who do not consider themselves Protestants. On a linear view, we do not believe we moved more to the left than Roman Catholics, but more to the right (the argument being, we corrected what Luther felt was wrong with the Roman church...getting back to the Word, as it is.)
There are some major differences which most Protestants have with Lutherans, even. Not to create an argument, but just to point out, those include the idea of double predestination. Lutherans do not believe that some people are BORN in a group which has been condemned to be some of the "not selected" people. For a SMALL book on the Lutheran position (Martin Luther position, that is), see "Bondage of the Will". It would be a good book, for anyone to read, just to know how somebody else sees it.
Another "biggie" for Lutherans is infant baptism. Not to argue, but to point out, the argument from a Lutheran point of view, is to look at circumcision. How old was Jesus when he was circumcised? Eight days. HOW would Jesus know the meaning of this, unless it was done when he was grown up? Answer: he was taught. Also, one of the verses to which we look, is Colossians 2:11-12. Obviously, the reference here being made, is Baptism to circumcision.
As for Roman Catholics, for whatever reason, it always seems that Lutherans treat them with more respect, than Protestants do. This may be upsetting to many, but as catholics (small "c"), as we all are, we most likely will see them in heaven, just as we expect to see Calvinists, etc. there (other protestants).
Is Arminian Dispensational Protestants like Secular Humanists? (tongue in cheek)
LOL this should really be a discussion about base packages. If Logos only put into base packages theology all Christians believed, there would be no books in it.
I for one really like having books by a lot of authors, (1) as others have stated you learn what others believe, and (2) for people with a well-grounded faith and an open mind you can learn a lot from many authors even if you disagree with some stuff they say. That Logos puts together the base packages they do saves me a lot of research time, as respected theologians in many circles have a lot to say that I could learn from, but I may not know who they are without base package help.
IMHO if more people read all theology with an open mind the statements they make authoritatively about what others believe or teach would be much more accurate [;)]
I've followed this thread very carefully up to the time of posting, and I would say that David's answer above is spot on. Most library's would contain some material with which we disagree, but this doesn't mean that we shouldn't read it. Within my own denomination (Anglican) there are certain positions that are contrary to my own point of view but that doesn't mean that my 'brethren' aren't entitled to theirs. I'm just grateful that within Logos's broad base it is able to accommodate ME and provide me with the means to be a more effective scholar, priest, pastor and preacher (and probably more cost effectively too).
yes, for theology of works salvation Not in my experience - this is a frequent misconception of Protestants, and another reason to try to understand what the various positions truly are.
One of the reasons I like having non-Protestant books and sources in Logos is that I like to quote from them when documenting theological position of various groups. Right now I have to rely on Google, but Logos is making progress in this area.
Here are some quotes from the Council of Trent on the relationship between works and salvation. This council is still accepted by the Catholic Church today.
CHAPTER X.
On the increase of Justification received.
Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, "Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity."
Pasted from <http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html>
CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.
Some quotes from the Council of Trent on salvation by faith alone:
CHAPTER IX.
Against the vain confidence of Heretics.
But, although it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted, nor ever were remitted save gratuitously by the mercy of God for Christ's sake; yet is it not to be said, that sins are forgiven, or have been forgiven, to any one who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, and rests on that alone; seeing that it may exist, yea does in our day exist, amongst heretics and schismatics; and with great vehemence is this vain confidence, and one alien from all godliness, preached up in opposition to the Catholic Church. But neither [Page 37] is this to be asserted,-that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubting whatever, settle within themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified, but he that believes for certain that he is absolved and justified; and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone: as though whoso has not this belief, doubts of the promises of God, and of the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ. For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.
Pasted from <http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html>
Wherefore, no one ought to flatter himself up with faith alone, fancying that by faith alone he is made an heir, and will obtain the inheritance, even though he suffer not with Christ, that so he may be also glori-[Page 39]fied with him. For even Christ Himself, as the Apostle saith, Whereas he was the son of God, learned obedience by the things which he suffered, and being consummated, he became, to all who obey him, the cause of eternal salvation. Pasted from <http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html>
CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.
CANON XXIX.-If any one saith, that he, who has fallen after baptism, is not able by the grace of God to rise again; or, that he is able indeed to recover the justice which he has lost, but by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church-instructed by Christ and his Apostles-has hitherto professed, observed, and taugh; let him be anathema.
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that these sacraments were instituted for the sake of nourishing faith alone; let him be anathema.
Pasted from <http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct07.html>
CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that by the said sacraments of the New Law grace is not conferred through the act performed, but that faith alone in the divine promise suffices for the obtaining of grace; let him be anathema.
CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that little children, for that they have not actual faith, are not, after having received baptism, to be reckoned amongst the faithful; and that, for this cause, they are to be rebaptized when they have attained to years of discretion; or, that it is better that the baptism of such be omitted, than that, while not believing by their own act, they should be bapized in the faith alone of the Church; let him be anathema.
I could find more quotes but it is Christmas and I have other things to do.
God help all of us if our salvation is based on having all our doctrine right. Many protestants have this doctrine, at least until they understand God's plan of redemption in a more perfect way. Our salvation is not based on right understanding of right doctrine but on our belief (faith, trust, obedience to - all part of the meaning of the Greek word belief) in Jesus Christ and what He has done for us.
Yes, I believe the Roman Catholic Church has distorted much of the apostles' teaching, but we need to keep THIS in mind: if the RC church is as bad as some think, then there were virtually no Christians for almost 1500 years!; and I think it would be true to say that NO other church or denomination has played a bigger role in spreading the gospel all around the world than the Roman Catholic Church. As Paul would say, (yes, I KNOW it's a different context but it doesn't make it any less true), "What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being proclaimed; and in this I rejoice, yes, and I will rejoice."
I think that what is really happened in "christianity" is that people have lost sight of the truth of Christ, represented in the reformation and true protestantism. This eccumenical mire is reflected in the logos packaging. I don't blame logos, they are just giving you what you want.
Our salvation is not based on right understanding of right doctrine but on our belief (faith, trust, obedience to - all part of the meaning of the Greek word belief) in Jesus Christ and what He has done for us.
This is just semantics. A doctrine is ultimately simply a type of belief. Think of the Judaizers, the gnostics etc. They held to beliefs (doctrines) which are damnable. Today people are capable of doing the same thing (having belief or doctrine which is damnable). Some people just draw the lines in different places (virgin birth? Deity of Christ? Works salvation?), but ultimately we need to try to follow the lines of Scripture.
One might easily ask, "can one be saved if they don't rightly understand the person of Christ?" What if they think Christ was just a good moral guru? Clearly, salvation *is* in some sense based on right understanding of right doctrine... That is, if you want to call yourself a Christian and have that label actually mean something.
This thread sickens me. Remember it's Christmas, a day for all Christians to celebrate.
Not all Christians celebrate Christmas, for various reasons. And while I don't share Peter's sentiments, I don't find anything about it or the thread sickening.
We all have license monies going to institutions we would not privately support.
I think you bring up an interesting point, Fox TV, which has always pushed the envelope on good taste and has TV shows that openly mock and contradict God's Word, is owned by the same company that owns Zondervan publishing, should we boycot Christian bookstores that cary thier products, because we wouldn't want to line the pockets of that institution either...
DP
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I seems we are missing the point of capitalistic competition. If no one buys anti-christian literature those looking to make money won't sell anti-christian literature.
"for theology, go to Catholic presses" yes, for theology of works salvation God help all of us if our salvation is based on having all our doctrine right. Many protestants have this doctrine, at least until they understand God's plan of redemption in a more perfect way. Our salvation is not based on right understanding of right doctrine but on our belief (faith, trust, obedience to - all part of the meaning of the Greek word belief) in Jesus Christ and what He has done for us. Yes, I believe the Roman Catholic Church has distorted much of the apostles' teaching, but we need to keep THIS in mind: if the RC church is as bad as some think, then there were virtually no Christians for almost 1500 years!; and I think it would be true to say that NO other church or denomination has played a bigger role in spreading the gospel all around the world than the Roman Catholic Church. As Paul would say, (yes, I KNOW it's a different context but it doesn't make it any less true), "What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being proclaimed; and in this I rejoice, yes, and I will rejoice."
How many people do you think lived during the babalonian captivity were saved?? Not many I am sure.. in fact all throughout jewish history I think for the most part only a few believed the truth.. Most were to stuck in religious legalism to understand the truth.. which is why they crucified Christ..
So it does not suprize me at all that only few might have been saved then.
I am doing a sermon on Rom 14 here in a few weeks. Amazing how paul did not want us to be separate, even though we had differences in opinion on some doctrines.. That is why I do not believe in denominationalism ( and yes I believe catholic church is a denomination.. one of many) In fact only one place in scripture did Paul condemn any other doctrine to the point of damning those who taught different.. the gospel of Christ..
There is only one way to heaven.. Not the many.. anyone who teaches a different way.. is to be anathemad..
to believe in premillinialsim, or postmelinialsim,, we can still be in the same body of Christ..
We neeed to be ONE.. Not separate separatism is from Satan..
After all this conversation, I'm still befuddled. Edward Pusey, Regius Professor at Oxford, was Anglican. Anglicans are P(p)rotestants....So what's the problem, again?
Joseph, good observation, I have made a terrible mistake about E.B. Pusey.
I misread the introduction to his writings. I thought he was pro-mariolotry, but instead he is strongly against. My mistake.
Narrow minded bigotry sickens me. Anyone who is scared of a reference work that disagrees with them is entirely too insecure in their beliefs.
Personally, I want to get the Catechism of the Catholic Church and all the Papal Encyclicals in Logos format. That would allow me to leverage the ECF resources I have.
"Mariolotry"?
Do not feed the trolls.
Sorry Mariolatry...
All right children (of God the Father),
I was chuckling a bit when I discovered this thread on this Dec 25th. As I read along, it started getting off-topic, a little silly and finally approaching offensive. The forum is not designed to promote a sectarian doctrine, stage devisive campaigns or denegrate others. On this representative day of celebration let us practice what our Lord wants to see in His disciples:
John 13:34,35 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
1 John 4:15-21 "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God............If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother."
Anglicanism has traditionally descried itself as the via media, middle way, between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. Anglicanism is not a confessional denomination. Anglicans encompass a broad spectrum of viewpoints (read theologies). These include evangelicals and Anglo-Catholics. Some would happily describe themselves as Protestants, others less so. In my opinion, this openness to a variety of views is both a strength and a weakness of the Anglican Communion.
To say more about denominations is, imo, well beyond talking about Logos.
I consider myself a Christian who is worshiping in the Anglican tradition. To facilitate my Christian walk I am interested in accessing resources from a wide spectrum of the Christian faith. I am happy that Logos includes a variety of theological positions in its resources. Others in this thread have suggested that resources from other, imo non-Christian, traditions are also appropriate. In other threads there have been requests for materials from non-Christian fields of study. I think this is helpful if we are to understand the interactions between Christianity and the rest of society. I believe it can also be helpful in understanding some of the developments of our denominations and faith.
I could comment on Ecumenicism and denominationism (?) but again I don't think that this is appropriate to this forum.
Brothers and Sisters in Christ, I pray that we all experience the peace of Christ throughout the year.
