I just upgraded to Logos 4 platinum and was quite distressed to find that I paid money for some roman catholic resources (e.b. Pusey, etc). Do any others feel this way?
Is that ALL you got?
For heaven's sake! I want MORE Catholic resources. It is about time Logos starts providing materials to all Christians!
I don't feel distressed, no. But I do feel a bit sad for you.
Personally, I think it's a reasonable request and I wouldn't mind having some more myself for research purposes. But one needs to keep in mind the debates and theological persuasions that surround these types of issues. Logos isn't under any obligation to provide any sort of resources and if they just catered to Protestants or some smaller niche like Arminian Dispensational Protestants one still wouldn't be able to complain (since they are under no obligation to anyone for any type of resource). In that regard, one might as well replace the word "Catholic" in your sentence with the word "Mormon."
quite distressed to find that I paid money for some roman catholic resources
I suspect all of us receive resources presenting views we find to be doctrinally offensive - which doesn't mean that they are not of value - for historical or apologetic uses. But I'm surprised that you're surprised to get Catholic resources - who do you think manned the scriptoriums copying the Bible for 1500 years? But that's okay, we're willing to share.[:D]
I think if you look at all we get, with even the smallest logos 4 library, there are many books we probably will never use.
I guess you could buy each book induvidually ( see how much that costs..
Logos should have something for everyone. Even if we do not agree with their doctrines.. Plus we should study all points of view.. how else are we going to know which is correct??
who do you think manned the scriptoriums copying the Bible for 1500 years? But that's okay, we're willing to share.
I guess a little humility is out of the question??
Actually, Pusey was was not Roman Catholic, but Anglican. But to the point, you don't have to read anything by Pusey or any other author if you don't want to. Logos has to market to a broad audience: surely there are many more resources in your platinum package that are congenial to your theological position, whatever it is. I am a conservative Lutheran, but enjoy having access to the thoughts of others to compare them with the results of my own Scripture study. Not every insight into Scripture is limited to people of one persuasion. As one who teaches, it is good to have access to authors who represent other positions, too, so that if I find it necessary to criticize their conclusions I can do it fairly, and not as a result of suppositions or stereotypes or because someone else made a blanket statement about them. So study Scripture for yourself, then compare every human author with Scripture. And rejoice that you have a richness of resources that many do not have to help you with your study, even if you prefer not to read Pusey.
It is. After all, we are celebrating God's humility in His incarnation as a true human. So I can make His humility shine by having none myself [:D] It's a joke, folks, not theology. But sometimes, I can't help tweaking the extreme anti-Catholic; I generally find that if Catholics believed what they think Catholics believe, I wouldn't be Catholic either.
Maybe I'm just naive...I thought that Methodists, Dispensationalists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Episcopalians were all protestants. Aren't we still protesting the RC church?
In order to protest something..you actually have to be against it. or consider it a threat. If my faith is against the catholic faith. it has nothing to do with the catholic church ( or any other church for that matter ) so I am not protesting that church. I just have my belief.. If they consider me protesting them. that is their problem.. Just like if I considered them protesting me, I would have an issue, not them..
either way. No one should be upset they have a book from a belief they might not agree with.. I Read the book of mormon.. How else can I know what they believe??
Bryan, clearly we have a different idea of historic protestantism, but that is not the point. I have read many catholic documents. (I was a catholic before the Lord saved me). My argument is that when we buy a logos package that contains RC resources, I suppose that some of the license money goes to RC institutions. That is what I am against. The problem is that If I want a good deal on resources (instead of purchasing them seperately), I am made to support the RC institutions.
My argument is that when we buy a logos package that contains RC resources, I suppose that some of the license money goes to RC institutions. That is what I am against.
Are you, perhaps, letting personal issues interfere with the big picture? We all have license monies going to institutions we would not privately support. That is also true of tax monies - which go towards governmental efforts I find morally repugnant. Logos does not present itself as the software arm of some particular evangelical denomination; therefore, it is not appropriate to judge its offerings as if it did.
I am saying that I would like to see 2 logos editions. One catholic and one protestant, and allow us to buy the other sides resources if we choose to. Didn't logos used to have a catholic edition? Clearly they saw a seperation at one time...
Didn't logos used to have a catholic edition?
They still have Lutheran, Catholic and Jewish packages - but these are publisher relationships of add-on resources. But reference, language and theological books don't fall neatly into your divisions. It is more of a continuum. A rule of thumb I was taught by Catholic priests: for theology, go to Catholic presses; for Bible study, go to Lutheran presses; for liturgy, go to Anglican presses. I would add Orthodox presses for theology and liturgy and Jewish presses for Bible study. My point is that good scholarship is good scholarship regardless of the personal beliefs of the author and personal beliefs are a multi-dimensional continuum not distinct boxes.
"for theology, go to Catholic presses" yes, for theology of works salvation
yes, for theology of works salvation
Not in my experience - this is a frequent misconception of Protestants, and another reason to try to understand what the various positions truly are.
It doesn't bother me, but then I work in the area of comparative religions. I have even used the Quran that comes with Logos on several occasions.
The Catholic resources don't seem to generate a lot of sales. For example, the community pricing on Catena Aurea: Commentary on the Four Gospels by Thomas Aquinas hasn't been able to get enough interest to even reach 50% of the purchase commitments need for production.
Speaking of which, while Yusuf Ali's is a fine translation, I wish they had Arberry's too. Maybe I'll go suggest it now.
Technically Peter, there are Lutherans (including me) who do not consider themselves Protestants. On a linear view, we do not believe we moved more to the left than Roman Catholics, but more to the right (the argument being, we corrected what Luther felt was wrong with the Roman church...getting back to the Word, as it is.)
There are some major differences which most Protestants have with Lutherans, even. Not to create an argument, but just to point out, those include the idea of double predestination. Lutherans do not believe that some people are BORN in a group which has been condemned to be some of the "not selected" people. For a SMALL book on the Lutheran position (Martin Luther position, that is), see "Bondage of the Will". It would be a good book, for anyone to read, just to know how somebody else sees it.
Another "biggie" for Lutherans is infant baptism. Not to argue, but to point out, the argument from a Lutheran point of view, is to look at circumcision. How old was Jesus when he was circumcised? Eight days. HOW would Jesus know the meaning of this, unless it was done when he was grown up? Answer: he was taught. Also, one of the verses to which we look, is Colossians 2:11-12. Obviously, the reference here being made, is Baptism to circumcision.
As for Roman Catholics, for whatever reason, it always seems that Lutherans treat them with more respect, than Protestants do. This may be upsetting to many, but as catholics (small "c"), as we all are, we most likely will see them in heaven, just as we expect to see Calvinists, etc. there (other protestants).
Is Arminian Dispensational Protestants like Secular Humanists? (tongue in cheek)
LOL this should really be a discussion about base packages. If Logos only put into base packages theology all Christians believed, there would be no books in it.
I for one really like having books by a lot of authors, (1) as others have stated you learn what others believe, and (2) for people with a well-grounded faith and an open mind you can learn a lot from many authors even if you disagree with some stuff they say. That Logos puts together the base packages they do saves me a lot of research time, as respected theologians in many circles have a lot to say that I could learn from, but I may not know who they are without base package help.
IMHO if more people read all theology with an open mind the statements they make authoritatively about what others believe or teach would be much more accurate [;)]
I've followed this thread very carefully up to the time of posting, and I would say that David's answer above is spot on. Most library's would contain some material with which we disagree, but this doesn't mean that we shouldn't read it. Within my own denomination (Anglican) there are certain positions that are contrary to my own point of view but that doesn't mean that my 'brethren' aren't entitled to theirs. I'm just grateful that within Logos's broad base it is able to accommodate ME and provide me with the means to be a more effective scholar, priest, pastor and preacher (and probably more cost effectively too).
I think that what is really happened in "christianity" is that people have lost sight of the truth of Christ, represented in the reformation and true protestantism. This eccumenical mire is reflected in the logos packaging. I don't blame logos, they are just giving you what you want.
Narrow minded bigotry sickens me. Anyone who is scared of a reference work that disagrees with them is entirely too insecure in their beliefs.
Personally, I want to get the Catechism of the Catholic Church and all the Papal Encyclicals in Logos format. That would allow me to leverage the ECF resources I have.
Narrow minded bigotry sickens me.
What exactly is "narrow minded bigotry"? Some people would say that the claim that there is a hell is "narrow minded bigotry". Some people would say that the claim that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation is "narrow minded bigotry". In fact, you will find that a lot of people think that anyone who disagrees with their ideas of liberality is a narrow minded bigot. To me, that looks like narrow minded bigotry.
Does Roman Catholicism teach a different gospel? Should Roman Catholicism be considered Christian? I think you'll find that *some* of those who answer these questions in the affirmative have actually thought through the issue in some detail and in a level headed manner. Is Peter one of those persons? I don't know, but I haven't been given much reason to think he is a bigot. I think his disgruntledness over receiving a Catholic book (which turns out not to be a Catholic book) is unwarranted, but not necessarily narrow minded bigotry.
To those in 1st century Isreal. John the Baptist would have been a nobody. Who called the religious leaders of their time, who had claim to this for 2000 years, a bigot, and a protestant.. as he protested the jewish leaders who had clain to Gods truth through abraham and their forfathers..
What did John call them?? A brood of Vipers..
My point is,, no one should think they have the truth, just because they belong to an organisation.. no matter how old it is.. It is run by men.. and men have a 6000 year history of screwing it up!!
This is why Logos should put all beliefs in logos.. so we can do as Paul commands, and test all doctrines to see if they are from God or men
Thank you Logos!
Many of Luther's objections to the abuses of the Catholic Church of his place and time were justified. A smaller group were based on the rise of new philosophical ideas especially that of an "individual". While Lutherans and Catholics have developed separate vocabularies and emphases which make it difficult at times to understand each other, there are only a few serious theological differences. A few more than the Orthodox, a few less than the Anglo-Catholic. And this Orthodox-Catholic-Lutheran-AngloCatholic constellation is far closer to its Jewish origins than the other major Christian groupings
I wish they had Arberry's too.
But then we'll need some of Ana Marie Schimmel's works especially on the influence of Sufism on Orthodox theology. And, of course, Arberry did some important work besides the translation ... I like where this is going[:)]
Plus we should study all points of view.. how else are we going to know which is correct??
We need to study the Word of God to know Truth. It is pure unadulterated Truth. We do not need, and in most cases, should not, listen to untruth. Jesus always and only spoke what He heard from the Father. So it is with believers. John 16:13
Anyone who is scared of a reference work that disagrees with them is entirely too insecure in their beliefs.
Jesus knew how weak the flesh was.
Our minds are constantly assaulted with evil and falsehood.
We are to be on guard.
If I choose to keep as much as possible, man's teachings, away from my mind, for the sole intent and purpose of listening to Truth at the feet of Jesus in His Word through His Spirit, I may consider it wise, not insecure.
I agree... I am not catholic however I just pre pub the catholic encyclopedia. It is good for research purposes. I actually called logos to find out if I could purchase the scrolls that the book of mormon was translated from... It would be indispensable for apologetics. They are actually egyptian burial scrolls..:Logos tried to purchase them, however the mormons wont let them go... They know it will destroy everything they believe when common man can see those scrolls, and translate them for themselves .......
As a former Priest, and still in love with the great scholars of the church I found everything I needed. I use the "Revised Standard Version, Catholic Addition" (although I would like to see the St. Joseph Confraternity Version), the Jerome Biblical Commentaries, and the mother of all theological works, The Ante-Nicene, Nicene, and Post-Nicene Fathers. Almost all other Catholic Theological resources come from this resource.
As to books written by individual authors, either on doctrinal, theological, or other issues by Catholic Authors I am sure you will find Logos would be more than happy to include them if the demand was there. Should you find a book you would like added, start a blog, get enough people to request it, and I think you will find it on the list shortly.
May God Bless You In Your Studies, Pastor Al
Maybe I'm just naive...I thought that Methodists, Dispensationalists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Episcopalians were all protestants. Aren't we still protesting the RC church? Another "biggie" for Lutherans is infant baptism. Not to argue, but to point out, the argument from a Lutheran point of view, is to look at circumcision. How old was Jesus when he was circumcised? Eight days. HOW would Jesus know the meaning of this, unless it was done when he was grown up? Answer: he was taught. Also, one of the verses to which we look, is Colossians 2:11-12. Obviously, the reference here being made, is Baptism to circumcision.
Well Dan... Wih all due respect, the flaw of the arguement you used here for infant baptism is that circumcision has never saved one Jew and baptism by water has never saved one Christian. All are saved by faith.... Circumcision is a sign of a covenant between Jews and God that is based on a racial identity which therefore can be applied to an infant. All Jews are Jews whether infants or adults. Water baptism is a ritual which demonstrates an inward work and decision of faith that an infant cannot possibly make. The two things cannot be compared in such a way or reconciled as such.
II wish Logos had more Catholic Resources, or at least allow you to choose what Resources you really want/need. I am new to logos, but I trying it out because BibleWorks does not have a MAC version.
I agree there should be more Catholic materials. However, we need to build up the demand for it to be financially viable. However, given Logos progress in a number of areas of importance to Catholics, I do expect this to change. Concrete examples?
Once you have a base package, you can be very selective in what you add in - and there's enough to keep you over budget for quite some time.
I have Logos , Original Languages, and I am happy with it. I use NAB and D-R, as well as NRSV, NAS etc. The Vulgate is available. However I have bought some extra resources, as the Collegeville BC and the Collegeville Reference Library. The Catholic Lectionary is useful.
I have always been treated here with welcome and support, for which I am grateful.. I am particularly impressed with the courtesy and expertise of everyone in Logos I have been in contact with.
I am not Catholic, but I do wonder (MJ, you could help here), would it be possible with the current set of resources for LOGOS to add a "Catholic Base Package" to its set of available resources. I don't even know if there are enough resources to justify this - but given your comments, there might be.
Similarly, though I do not see or hear the request from others, would an "Orthodox Base Package" be appropriate.
As has been noted, the resources that support the current base packages represent a strong protestant persuasion. Having either a "Catholic" or an "Orthodox" base package would provide an opportunity for some to use LOGOS that currently feel disinclined toward the "Protestant" feel of the software.
I suspect some of us (i.e. me) might be inclined to add a "Catholic" or an "Orthodox" package to our existing resources - given the appropriate discounts. [:)]
would it be possible with the current set of resources for LOGOS to add a "Catholic Base Package" to its set of available resources.
Logos originally had a separate Catholic package. I waited far longer than I expected for its release. At that time the resources that one's machine could handle was limited so it worked out well. I certainly would appreciate a package that included a higher percentage of resources I would use, I wouldn't label the dividing line as "Protestant" - I would say that Logos has a very Evangelical feel. It is a combination of a number of small and subtle things that give this feel:
However, these biases are things I don't expect Logos to instantly 'solve' but rather to resolve over time as the demand increases. But they do illustrate why I think new base packages would not solve the problem.
I do think that a base product without commentaries and pastoral materials to which one adds a "denominational" component could work well. That is assuming one defines denominational very broadly. I think that the major camps can be divided into the liturgical churches, two groups of Protestant, and Judaism. By liturgical churches I mean Catholic, Orthodox, Church of the East, and some of the Anglican/Lutheran perspective. I say two groups of Protestant because I am not qualified to define them well - I think mainline/other or liberal/conservative ..
I don't even know if there are enough resources to justify this
I don't think so at the moment. However, there are a number of resources in some state of prepub that Logos is only a commentary or two away from a plausible Catholic package. The Orthodox are not yet even close. As for the Church of the East ... But there are useful Lutheran, Catholic and Jewish non-base packages already.
Okay, now that I said something to irritate everyone
