Attn Faithlife: Coming Massive Update

Dave Hooton

The blog announcement for a 'massive' update of resources for Smart Selection poses some questions:

"It might be a good idea to start your software first thing Monday morning and let Logos begin to update and organize your library." i.e. impose a massive drain on servers first thing? Is there an alternative strategy? Will Logos automatically restart when the download is complete?
"Because this feature is so great, it takes a lot of data on the back end to make it work. Therefore, we will be implementing these updates late on October 26 to cause as little inconvenience as possible." What exactly does this mean? Does Smart Selection require a lot of data to make it work? Who/what may be inconvenienced?
Will v5.3 be released prior to Oct 26?
Will there be changes to the current Indexing scheme to facilitate a better user experience e.g. to prevent downloads from interrupting indexing?

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Comments

Donnie Hale

Does Smart Selection require a lot of data to make it work? Who/what may be inconvenienced?

I know this ship has sailed, but my question is: What value proposition for a feature like "smart selection" is so great that it warrants adding data to all (applicable) existing resources and all new resources which can be smart-selected? I confess to not getting it. First thing I'm going to do is disable smart selection, just as I do in Word or anything else like that.

Donnie

George Somsel

I'm not altogether certain that I'm going to like this feature since I prefer to have a program do what I want it to do and not what it thinks I want it to do. We'll see how it goes.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

The resources are hosted on Amazon's CloudFront Content Delivery Network. We're not too worried about "a massive drain" on the servers.
I'm not really sure what that means, sorry.
We're not currently planning for that. All these resources are fully compatible with 5.2b SR-5, so 5.3 isn't necessary.
No.

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639294#Comment_639294

Bradley, since the beta has not gone gold, is it possible to put in a switch so that the user can tell the software to restart after the download is complete? I have 5500 resources in my library have hidden all the latin stuff.

If it takes 4 or more hours to download, you have to time it so that youi are at the computer when the download is complete to restart it.

Would much rather set it to download during the night, let it install and reindex by morning, without any input from the user except to launch the software to get the process started.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639294#Comment_639294

I really wish the Logos team, the mobile team, and the Libronix team (me) would get their strategic heads on straight (mine is pointing forward).

Dave is the expert, but my impression was Libronix carried a lot of data in the resources (eg indexing, etc). Logos thought to correct that by moving outside the resources (and so for a long while a Libby book would run in Logos). Now the Logos team is copying the Libronix team, demanding resources be updated to match software features (a behavior already happening, but now expanding). This isn't particularly unusual for software companies. But when it happens, software companies are usually very apologetic for the mess they've created. In fact the last one that did that to me, I simply didn't purchase further.

Next, I suggest the Logos team talk with the mobile team (iOS, etc). In iOS, the user can decide what they want, when they want, updated or not. Very similar to the Libronix team. Not so, the Logos team. They demand obedience! Or else. Your computer's not up to snuff? Buy another! Don't need smart whatever .... tough. Update!

I remember when Logos4 came out, the sky would fall, if the user selected what to download. Logos staff were actually quite serious. Today, 'Faithlife' really doesn't have a lot of credibility as they bounce from poor strategic decision to the next poor strategic decision (with the CEO being thanked effusively for his after-the-fact apologies).

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639298#Comment_639298

Four hours is a short time, Amazon's servers are not the fastest. They are pretty slow. Being on a fast fiber network at work, (greater than 40 Mbs) there is little difference than my home network.

Platinum + Sda Silver and a whole lot of other resources is going to take a very long time. The last time I did a download it took more than 7 hours.

I am sure you see the need to automate the entire thing for users who desire it. Accept download, and forget it.

Randy W. Sims

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639298#Comment_639298

...is it possible to put in a switch so that the user can tell the software to restart after the download is complete?

It may not be ideal but you could use a utility like Shutter Pro:

The above shuts down logos waits 2 minutes and starts it again. That isn't strictly necessary. All you need is something to shut it down after a period of time (or some other event like processor usage or network activity); indexing will begin after Logos shuts down. You'll have to guess a bit on time to download based on your connection. But we don't know how big is massive.

What is the largest size that could be downloaded in this update?

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639299#Comment_639299

[U]

Randy W. Sims

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639330#Comment_639330

Where is the slowdown that everyone is talking about? Has anyone seen an actual slowdown? Or is this theoretical? I understand where you are coming from and agree wholeheartedly but I don't think we've seen anything yet to complain about.

Logos can definitely use some optimizations, but I've been very impressed with the amount of optimization that has gone in since L5 was released. Almost every release has included optimizations, not all of which were listed in the release notes.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639330#Comment_639330

My hope has been that the current system would last me into L6 but that is becoming more of a pipe dream as L5 becomes more bloated and demands more from my current system to run effectively.

Well, what are your specs?

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639344#Comment_639344

[U]

Unix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639395#Comment_639395

Logos/Verbum and web browsing largely require triple core or better - it's funny there's still no mention of that in the recommended specs. I don't understand why they say "i5" as there's also AMD as an alternative. Perhaps they should list AMD model that are suitable recommended specs, but the least change in the recommendations they could do would be to recommend triple core! No, they can't help out everyone, different CPU:s really is a jungle.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639395#Comment_639395

My hope has been that the current system would last me into L6 but that is becoming more of a pipe dream as L5 becomes more bloated and demands more from my current system to run effectively.

Well, what are your specs?

In almost the middle of the suggested. https://www.logos.com/system-requirements .

Dual Intel 2.4GHz, 4GB Mem, 7200rpm HDD, 64-bit Win 8.1, 512 video, Directx 11

I know the answer ... "up your memory to 6GB or more, get a bigger graphics card with more memory and since your upgrading you might as well get a faster processor"

The two glaring things I see? Ram and lack of an SSD.

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639411#Comment_639411

My hope has been that the current system would last me into L6 but that is becoming more of a pipe dream as L5 becomes more bloated and demands more from my current system to run effectively.

Well, what are your specs?

In almost the middle of the suggested. https://www.logos.com/system-requirements .

Dual Intel 2.4GHz, 4GB Mem, 7200rpm HDD, 64-bit Win 8.1, 512 video, Directx 11

I know the answer ... "up your memory to 6GB or more, get a bigger graphics card with more memory and since your upgrading you might as well get a faster processor"

The two glaring things I see? Ram and lack of an SSD.

Thanks for confirming my point.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639330#Comment_639330

that is becoming more of a pipe dream as L5 becomes more bloated and demands more from my current system to run effectively.

...

Thanks for listening. My opinions are my own and I reserve the right to change them at any given whim.

I like your attitude [:)] But I have one question. By "bloat" I assume you mean features that don't have a large enough user base to justify their inclusion - not just you personally don't use them. Can you give some examples?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639416#Comment_639416

Some quick thoughts to bring reason into the posts lacking it:

The feature is not new. It has been working on a limited number of resources for some time.
Turn the feature off if you don't want it; mine's been off since the feature went gold.
Nightowls generally don't have a problem scheduling their indexing ... they simply start it when they head to bed -- 3 am or later after the download has completed. Become a nightowl - we do have more fun.
While Logos does require significant resources, you can run quite successfully on less than ideal setups by (1) being realistic about wait times by actually measuring them ... often the delays are minimal but the impatience is not (at least for me) and (2) learning to structure your requests to match you machine's capability - compare text a few verses at a time not a full chapter is a big one for me
Drink high quality tea or coffee -- a perfect cup takes time to make and savor which makes the waits too short rather than too long.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639395#Comment_639395

In almost the middle of the suggested.

Or, to look at it another way, it's below what's recommended.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639395#Comment_639395

I know the answer ... "up your memory to 6GB or more, get a bigger graphics card with more memory and since your upgrading you might as well get a faster processor"

Unfortunately, the Recommended is more akin to the Minimum with 64-bit Logos coming in v5.3 and Windows10 looming i.e. Windows 7's days are numbered. And a cheap i5 is the middle ground of performance. I have a first generation i5 and it has been good enough for the last 4 years. I supplemented it with an SSD last year and went from 4 GB to 8 GB RAM when v5.3 was announced. I expect to upgrade to a new laptop when Windows 10 is released, partly because I don't like Windows 8.1 but mainly because 5 years is a lifetime for a laptop that doesn't have USB 3 and doesn't have the fastest hard drive interface.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639298#Comment_639298

If it takes 4 or more hours to download, you have to time it so that youi are at the computer when the download is complete to restart it.

As soon as the download starts, exit Logos.

The indexer will keep running in the background; it will download your resources, prepare your library, and index it. In the morning, restart Logos and you'll be ready to go.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639492#Comment_639492

As soon as the download starts, exit Logos.

The indexer will keep running in the background; it will download your resources, prepare your library, and index it. In the morning, restart Logos and you'll be ready to go.

Unfortunately my experience is that Logos will finish the download this way, but Logos needs to be restarted to actually add these downloads to the library, and this then starts the indexer...

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639517#Comment_639517

Unfortunately my experience is that Logos will finish the download this way, but Logos needs to be restarted to actually add these downloads to the library, and this then starts the indexer...

The trick is exiting Logos, as Bradley says. If Logos is closed, adding/indexing will automatically start after the download. If Logos is open, it won't.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639299#Comment_639299

I really wish the Logos team, the mobile team, and the Libronix team (me) would get their strategic heads on straight (mine is pointing forward).

I'm not sure I can keep track of all your teams, and what they're doing, :-), especially since inside Faithlife, we're just one team. I'm not sure who all these other people are....

The basic idea has always been to keep things that have to go together together. I can deliver some things in pieces, but some things have to be paired: If I have a book with multiple editions, and a data set that says "character positions 1023-1031 are tagged 'proper noun'", I can't deliver those things separately without a high-risk of being out of sync, and creating lots of confusion for users and us. So we deliver those things together.

The Libronix idea of letting you choose which components to install was insanity -- it was like letting you order a car, and letting you choose which engine parts to have installed. Only nobody knew which parts did what, or had the information required to make smart decisions. (And in most cases all the parts were required anyway.) So people would randomly drop parts they didn't understand, and the car wouldn't run right. It wasn't like letting you choose cloth or leather seats, or regular or premium radio -- we were letting you choose to have the spark plugs or engine pistons installed or not.

In mobile, it's actually monolithic. The entire app is completely re-installed at every upgrade. The choice you perceive -- of updating books -- is only possible because we don't offer any cross-book functionality, or most of the features that work with data outside the book. We could get the desktop app to allow you to choose to not upgrade a book, too -- if we stripped out every feature till it matched mobile, which basically lets you read a book and search a single book at once.

As mobile improves, it will necessarily follow the desktop model more and more. It's just too complicated to potentially have 43,000 different books in different revisions / feature-compatibility-levels all running together in one integrated system.

Today, 'Faithlife' really doesn't have a lot of credibility as they bounce from poor strategic decision to the next poor strategic decision (with the CEO being thanked effusively for his after-the-fact apologies).

No need to thank me profusely; I'll just presume you feel that way, and bounce along to another bad decision. :-)

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639294#Comment_639294

The resources are hosted on Amazon's CloudFront Content Delivery Network. We're not too worried about "a massive drain" on the servers.

I'm not really sure what that means, sorry.

We're not currently planning for that. All these resources are fully compatible with 5.2b SR-5, so 5.3 isn't necessary.

No.

As there will be no change to prevent downloads from interrupting indexing can you assure users that the download will be one batch with only one lot of indexing i.e. a 3 GB batch being indexed will not be followed by a 2 GB batch?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639619#Comment_639619

No desire to thank you profusely, Bob. But think about it. It's possible to download your L5 library and hide 99% of it. L5 still works great. Or simply select 1% of it. Like iOS. Like Kindle.

For some reason, you hint at your future (basically working off the Logos internet library), subscriptions (ditto), and so forth. But you program for a strategy from a century ago (James Strong pairing, lookups, single variable analysis, etc). And make hundreds of videos training your users to remain in the past.

Someday, you need to meet yourself in the hallway and say hello.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639843#Comment_639843

It's possible to download your L5 library and hide 99% of it. L5 still works great. Or simply select 1% of it. Like iOS. Like Kindle.

I agree with Denise.

I personally would not want this feature, why would I have to re- download ALL of my books AT ONCE because someone thought that it was a great idea?

I think Faithlife and Bob miss the fact that users have different devices for different purposes. They wrongly assume that we only read on mobile devices (hence the crippled research capabilities), and, EQUALLY WRONG, that we do serious study on laptops and desktops. I would LOVE to do serious PGs and searches right on my phone or tablet. And don't tell me they are underpowered. If they can run videogames that are demoed at WWDC and other Apple events, surely, they can run some word searches locally. Is it too difficult to imagine that I have a desktop on which I mostly study and a laptop on which I mostly read, and I do not want to RE-download 6 or even 1GB of resources on the laptop and have to RE-index them, etc, using a ton of my time for resources, I DO NOT WANT on my laptop, but would like to have on my desktop.

So, a paradigm:

re-design Library View with the idea to allow per-machine control of resources, similar to what is done currently with mobile (i.e. allow only a subset of entire Library to be installed on any given machine)
"archive" of "unused for a long time" (user selected time limit) resources to the cloud without affecting the index. In other words, when 100% of my resources get downloaded and indexed, but after a month I have only used 100 books, and month after month I keep using the same books, referring to the other 99.9% of resources only marginally - "retire" rarely or never used books to the cloud, but with the index still intact. So that when I search, Logos would still display the result in a limited context with a link to download the whole resource.
This should not affect the "Facilitate Serendipitous Discovery" feature - run it from the index.

For some reason, you hint at your future (basically working off the Logos internet library), subscriptions (ditto), and so forth. But you program for a strategy from a century ago

[Y]

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639424#Comment_639424

Drink high quality tea or coffee -- a perfect cup takes time to make and savor which makes the waits too short rather than too long.

Probably at least as important as Logos IMHO. If you can't make decent coffee or tea, Logos is probably beyond your skill set capacity.

[8-|]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639843#Comment_639843

But you program for a strategy from a century ago (James Strong pairing, lookups, single variable analysis, etc). And make hundreds of videos training your users to remain in the past.

Denise, give it a break - Bob is programming for his market which has a significant percentage of people uncomfortable with contemporary logic and linguistics ... semiology and narratology are not part of their toolkit. If you look at the Logos developed products, you will see Bob is slowly introducing new approaches and spending significant effort to teaching users how to use them without shaking their basic conservatism. From conversations with Logos employees, I know they are considering some of the features you desire - not necessarily in the next version or two but somewhere down the line. Bob will always be constrained by:

the fact that in most fields peoples' intellectual toolkit tends to be shaped by the popular theories when they were last in school
the teaching methods used in seminaries and Bible colleges
the basic tools (graphic organizers, charts, outlining, summarization ...) taught in basic education

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639869#Comment_639869

the fact that in most fields peoples' intellectual toolkit tends to be shaped by the popular theories when they were last in school

the teaching methods used in seminaries and Bible colleges

the basic tools (graphic organizers, charts, outlining, summarization ...) taught in basic education

Do you suppose that's why I still tend to use a mallet and chisel? [;)]

Wayne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639492#Comment_639492

Will indexer take longer than it normally takes? I have a new enough computer that indexing is not a problem for us. It normally finishes in less than 30 minutes.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639855#Comment_639855

re-design Library View with the idea to allow per-machine control of resources, similar to what is done currently with mobile (i.e. allow only a subset of entire Library to be installed on any given machine)

I'm fine if we want to have this in the library view within the application. But I will continue to argue that I'd like to manage my library at that level with a web interface. Many reasons for this, but if knowledge of my library and device assignments is authoritatively stored "in the cloud" (and it is), then it makes sense to use the universal UI to the cloud (a browser) to manage it.

Donnie

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639942#Comment_639942

I'm fine if we want to have this in the library view within the application. But I will continue to argue that I'd like to manage my library at that level with a web interface. Many reasons for this, but if knowledge of my library and device assignments is authoritatively stored "in the cloud" (and it is), then it makes sense to use the universal UI to the cloud (a browser) to manage it.

agreed

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639869#Comment_639869

Now MJ. You know we would not be having this small discussion absent Bob's interest in the future (which appears to be unique among Bible software companies). My argument is simply that his everyday software decisions are creating a generation of 'scholars' expert in late 1800s Bible study. And I only say that, having read a couple days back on another site, 'Logos 101' which I interpret to mean 'Logos pablum'.

Now compare that to Steve Runge's discussion http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2014/10/on-eclecticism-in-linguistics/ or any of the other experts at Logos. And my interest isn't so Logos can do stuff I want. I already have that capability. My concern is the platform will likely become a standard (e.g. success) but is so adept at automating the past. And this, for a company that hosts (hosted?) a technology conference.

And finally, my comment to Bob IS primarily motivated by 'downloading for downloading's sake'. I work off of multiple platforms (as do many) and I also don't simply study Logos books. I study many others. But Logos is really becoming a download pain in the neck compared to my other platforms.

Rob

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639957#Comment_639957

My argument is simply that his everyday software decisions are creating a generation of 'scholars' expert in late 1800s Bible study

I for one would be interested in modern bible study techniques. Can you point the way?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/639957#Comment_639957

My argument is simply that his everyday software decisions are creating a generation of 'scholars' expert in late 1800s Bible study.

I tend to think of it as make-work scholarship ... go through a series of steps for a sufficient period of time and you'll have fulfilled your duty of Bible study .... discover nothing that hasn't been seen by others 100's or 1000's of times ... and be sure to not discover anything that might challenge your understanding of Scripture and Christianity. For many this can be defined as "do what your textbooks taught you" which is my point of Bob being constrained by his market.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640001#Comment_640001

I for one would be interested in modern bible study techniques. Can you point the way?

I'm not Denise and would steer you towards Walton on argumentation theory as one framework - many books that are worthwhile. But to start off I would suggest some new looks at the old:

Participatory Biblical Exegesis by Matthew Levering

New Paradigms for Bible Study edited by Robert M. Fowler et al

Faithful Persuasion by David S. Cunningham

I'm anxious to see other's suggestions.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640096#Comment_640096

I tend to think of it as make-work scholarship

A monk once commented to me in a novice class that it was much easier to show that your are praying a lot rather than praying well. Much the same could be said of Bible Study. Computers can (easily?) automate much of the grunt work of Bible Study, but while this lets you follow more footnotes and test things a bit more, it only indirectly leads to the wisdom of GOOD Bible Study.

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640134#Comment_640134

I tend to think of it as make-work scholarship

...are praying a lot rather than praying well. Much the same could be said of Bible Study. Computers can (easily?) automate much of the grunt work of Bible Study, but while this lets you follow more footnotes and test things a bit more, it only indirectly leads to the wisdom of GOOD Bible Study.

the illusion of competence

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640001#Comment_640001

Robert, you ask about your own Bible study .... but that was my point. You have to dig it out the hard way. You shouldn't have to. And I don't have a magic bullet for you. Let me show some very simple examples.

Example 1: Let's say you want to discuss JEPD theories with a friend. Maybe you don't agree with it; maybe he/she strongly supports it. (Or visa versa). In your Bible software, you set a flag and it highlights in color the verses/phrases often associated with the theory. You review some of the examples, look at your commentaries, etc. to prepare for your discussion. Logos today? No. My software? Yes. Bibles in the early 1900s? Yes.

Example 2: You're looking at manuscript support for an NT passage, where variation can be material from a theological point of view. You can see the associated source citings; but when and how related? Easily reviewed? Logos today? No. My software? Yes.

Example 3: It looks like a hebrew word usage may be impacting greek translation and later english translation. You do a search and it sorts the results by approximate time written (you select conservative vs more liberal assumptions). Logos today? My software? Yes.

Example 4: You're putting together your sermon, and a phrase keeps ringing in your head. You select the phrase for a quick search, listing the closest in-exact matches. It additionally highlights the results by key word usage. Logos? No. My software? Yes.

Example 5: As you read the OT, it appears the text is 'solid'. But not so. Some words are unknown (strictly a guess), some have considerable variation in usage, and some have significant semitic associations. Logos shows you as you read? No. My software? Yes (approximately!)

I use these examples not to display an amateur lady's programming prowess (zippo). Instead I list it to show that (a) improving software is not difficult, (b) it's quite useful for Bible study and (c) it's the tip of the iceburg (MJ being able cite far more).

Christians and pastors deserve far more than automated late 1800s Bible study, 10,000 search results in .2 seconds, and yet one more database to fill up the right-click menu.

Additionally, I'm not Catholic but I'm pretty sure Logos could really go to town with the Catholic materials from what I've seen. And not that much work either.

I AM a big believer in quickly accessible 'data'. Sitting in Bible study with some 'waver'ers' in the back (usually), a strong data-supported statement easily pulled, does wonders. And being able to let the waver-ers quickly see for themselves is even better.

It's just not that hard.

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640178#Comment_640178

Robert, you ask about your own Bible study .... but that was my point. You have to dig it out the hard way. You shouldn't have to. And I don't have a magic bullet for you. Let me show some very simple examples.

Example 1: Let's say you want to discuss JEPD theories with a friend. Maybe you don't agree with it; maybe he/she strongly supports it. (Or visa versa). In your Bible software, you set a flag and it highlights in color the verses/phrases often associated with the theory. You review some of the examples, look at your commentaries, etc. to prepare for your discussion. Logos today? No. My software? Yes. Bibles in the early 1900s? Yes.

Example 2: You're looking at manuscript support for an NT passage, where variation can be material from a theological point of view. You can see the associated source citings; but when and how related? Easily reviewed? Logos today? No. My software? Yes.

Example 3: It looks like a hebrew word usage may be impacting greek translation and later english translation. You do a search and it sorts the results by approximate time written (you select conservative vs more liberal assumptions). Logos today? My software? Yes.

Example 4: You're putting together your sermon, and a phrase keeps ringing in your head. You select the phrase for a quick search, listing the closest in-exact matches. It additionally highlights the results by key word usage. Logos? No. My software? Yes.

Example 5: As you read the OT, it appears the text is 'solid'. But not so. Some words are unknown (strictly a guess), some have considerable variation in usage, and some have significant semitic associations. Logos shows you as you read? No. My software? Yes (approximately!)

I use these examples not to display an amateur lady's programming prowess (zippo). Instead I list it to show that (a) improving software is not difficult, (b) it's quite useful for Bible study and (c) it's the tip of the iceburg (MJ being able cite far more).

Christians and pastors deserve far more than automated late 1800s Bible study, 10,000 search results in .2 seconds, and yet one more database to fill up the right-click menu.

Additionally, I'm not Catholic but I'm pretty sure Logos could really go to town with the Catholic materials from what I've seen. And not that much work either.

I AM a big believer in quickly accessible 'data'. Sitting in Bible study with some 'waver'ers' in the back (usually), a strong data-supported statement easily pulled, does wonders. And being able to let the waver-ers quickly see for themselves is even better.

It's just not that hard.

It's interesting the direction this has taken. It is very similar to a conversation I recently had when talking to my wife about studying very current positions and paradigms. I basically concluded that, even if I had the complete L5 library (I have Platinum plus my bent of added books) the library can only carry me so far ...to the edge of the 20th (in some cases the 21st) century and then I have to leave L5 to pursue through other means and resources. I'm not dismissing the quality of the content and it's functionality in L5 nor the foundation built by previous believers (not that I agree with all of the conclusions of previous believers) but scholarship has made some pretty impressive leaps since 1950 (NT and Jewish studies alone since Qumran) not to mention in comparison to the 16-19th centuries. Yet a significant majority of the content available is....well, pretty dated.

So Miss Lady Denise, how would one come to acquire said software? [;)]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640178#Comment_640178

Example 1: Let's say you want to discuss JEPD theories with a friend. Maybe you don't agree with it; maybe he/she strongly supports it. (Or visa versa). In your Bible software, you set a flag and it highlights in color the verses/phrases often associated with the theory. You review some of the examples, look at your commentaries, etc. to prepare for your discussion. Logos today? No. My software? Yes. Bibles in the early 1900s? Yes.

My one correction - I have a Logos visual filter that does this.

If I were to identify one problem as the worst feature of Logos, I would identify intertextuality. In cross-references, topics, Biblical people, Biblical places, translation rings in the BWS etc. etc. Logos gives us a huge mound of possibly relevant material without any way to preserve and organize our observations - how something is related, whether it affects our understanding of a word/image/phrase under study, links to commentators' observations on the relationships ... the material is a web ... Logos leads us down a single-file thread.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640181#Comment_640181

So Miss Lady Denise, how would one come to acquire said software?

I think that Andrew Jones when he was the Catholic product manager started down a productive path with his Catholic Topical Index as a way to guide users to utilize their resources to their advantage. We'll see how that is followed up on by other product divisions ... and Andrew's successor.

While the Bible Sense Lexicon still has growing pains, it is based on a web-based linguistic theory and as navigation becomes easier, additional materials and languages added, etc. it has real potential

While I get impatient with the speed, and sometimes the priorities, any time I talk to a live Logos employee (content or programming) I am pleasantly surprised that their vision is not far from that of Denise, myself, Fr. Devin and several other forum regulars.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640178#Comment_640178

Christians and pastors deserve far more than automated late 1800s Bible study, 10,000 search results in .2 seconds, and yet one more database to fill up the right-click menu.

You don't mean that Logos is stuck in the 1800s. You mean that the cutting-edge features it has are not the cutting-edge features you want, and some of the 'missing' features you want don't even need cutting-edge technology.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640239#Comment_640239

Well, Mark, you'll notice I put Christians ahead of pastors. That was one big surprise when I first 'joined' the forum ... pastors really don't care that much about each other's study other than what the seminaries taught them. How to do a word study, make a note, create a weekly speech, etc.

Secondly, I don't need those example features I discussed above for Logos, just like I don't need constant downloads for Logos. My Bible study proceeds far faster without using Logos. So your paper tiger growls a bit too loud. Logos is a good research assistant that enjoys early 1900s commentaries.

And thirdly, the question posed was from a user for daily Bible study; thus my choice of examples. Why it's necessary for everyone to re-create a filter (vs select from a menu), go look up weights and measures (remember George?), and re-invent really basic Bible study activity is beyond me. And pastors that think that's really neato is even more curious. If anything, I'd of thought pastors would be pressuring the software providers to allow easier Bible study for the folks they teach? Or is that not on the Christian radar?

Now, let's return to the seminary. Would it not be a good idea to let one of the interlinear lines remain blank to allow the greek or hebrew student to directly translate? Not for me!! Not for me!! (Just wanted to make that clear.) Remember how Bob was going to roll out an interlinear toolset? I've no doubt just about everyone could cite various easy examples, vs some more late 1800s tools.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640299#Comment_640299

Well, Mark, you'll notice I put Christians ahead of pastors. That was one big surprise when I first 'joined' the forum ... pastors really don't care that much about each other's study other than what the seminaries taught them. How to do a word study, make a note, create a weekly speech, etc.

Secondly, I don't need those example features I discussed above for Logos, just like I don't need constant downloads for Logos. My Bible study proceeds far faster without using Logos. So your paper tiger growls a bit too loud. Logos is a good research assistant that enjoys early 1900s commentaries.

You're missing the point again by over-generalising about what other people care about, and why other people study the way that they do. Moreover, you seem to be assuming that everyone else should want what you want.

I liked your ideas, and could see that they would be useful. But they are nowhere near as valuable to me as many of the other cutting-edge features that Logos has introduced over the last several years. Are those features only valuable to be because I only care about what my seminary taught me? Don't insult us. Pastors are capable of thinking for themselves, you know.

Rob

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640178#Comment_640178

My software? Yes

Thank you Denise (and MJ) for your comments and information. The two of you seem to have a different idea of what Logos should be than many of us who use it to try and understand our faith better so that we can pass it on to the next generation.

I appreciate the items that were posted and I wish there were more because I’m not in an environment that promotes contact with those ideas (aha you say!).

I think I’m beginning to see where you are coming from but maybe your position would be better served if you shared your ideas and techniques in a more collaborative way with the rest of us. Perhaps then they might catch fire and propel Logos to the next level. More dangerous than the ideas would be the increased expectations of the users.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/640365#Comment_640365

[The two of you seem to have a different idea of what Logos should be than many of us who use it to try and understand our faith better so that we can pass it on to the next generation.

Actually, my concern is precisely passing the faith on in the context of a major research university and high tech environment. In fact, Verbum is making a presentation to our parish staff on Monday to further my intent to "pioneer" parish level computer-based Bible study. My interest is more in support of small rural parishes but our parish is an ideal "test' site. One of my concerns is that K-12 education has moved to a very graphic oriented style of managing information - and Bible study methods have not (with some exceptions). My personal love is rhetoric/logic/linguistics and how to apply new frameworks (1880 and after) to our thinking about scripture.

And, yes, one of the reasons I am a bit more upbeat than Denise is that I have seen several of my ideas incorporated into Logos.