Concern about future upgrades

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656198#Comment_656198

Good question Steve. You might also ask what those free future upgrades for life get you? It is surely not the latest program features.

Todd

Actually, not quite true. You get some new features, depending on whether a feature requires a new dataset, and bug fixes. Here are the three approaches:

Upgrade to a new base package - you get new features that don't require new datasets, new features based on new datasets (think of datasets as tagging and additional data tied to or adding/enhancing resources), and new resources/books.

Crossgrade - you get the new features that don't require new datasets, new features based on datasets, but no new resources. Currently there are two variations of crossgrades, one a little cheaper with less datasets added, the other with all the datsdts for just a little more money.

Free engine - new features that don't require datasets, no datasets, no new resources. This also, as do all three strateges, ensure that your software continues to be supported with bug fixes, etc.

You can review a list of the features datasets on this page.

So there are three choices, one being free. In addition, you can turn off any and all internet updating of program and resources, so no syncing is done (which is fine if you back up your own computer and don't need to sync your work to another computer), and then run the program and resources you have until the operating system won't support the program any more - and maybe then a virtual machine can be installed on your computer (Windows and Mac both support this with additional cost programs) to run your older Logos on a version of the older OS. That is, assuming you upgraded the older OS - you can just not upgrade anything on your computer and other than support/bug fixes/security patches you don't miss anything.

So it seems all the choices are covered, no? Do nothing - zero cost maintain support and some improvements - get all the features no new books - various choices of upgrade to new features and resources.

Todd Hinton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656203#Comment_656203

Good technical explanation. Its all in how you look at it.

Steve, to your specific questions:

- Does anyone else share your concern? Yes. These type questions tend to show up with each major update. But forum OPs are typically not interested in 'death of a salesman'. However, according to Logos, the bulk of Logos purchasers are single-time, and I'd assume at some point, simply let their software die (similar to what I'm doing with OliveTree). The issue is for those who have a large investment. Basically you're on your own, absent questions to Dave in Australia.

- Is there a way you can backup a copy of the installation program for me to load onto another computer. Yes, there is, thanks to the afore mentioned Dave of Australia: method 1 of https://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers

- Does anyone know if there is a way for you to keep your status quo perpetually? Above, Don sort of hints at it, but the answer is 'no'. As he mentions, it's possible to operate in a virtual box but the system has to match your backup (mentioned above). If it doesn't or someone upgrades the virtual box, you're out of luck. Realistically you're better off, simply assigning a PC to your Logos and cutting the internet to the PC (to avoid ALL updates).

The above is basically how I operate Libronix, for the same issues you mention. I have a dedicated PC in the music room which runs Libronix and also all the older synths (completely offline). And I have a virtual box on my W7 that similarly runs Libronix (the virtual box being offline). I'm reluctant to do the same with the L4-6 series, primarily due to the layering. Age wise, I figure I'm off heavy Bible study before that issue arrives. Stick with my iPad at that point.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656320#Comment_656320

Does anyone know if there is a way for you to keep your status quo perpetually? Above, Don sort of hints at it, but the answer is 'no'.

I thought I was clearer - there is a status quo choice - the answer is YES. Turn off the internet and update NOTHING. You only get pushed into updating your Logos if you update your OS, eventually.

The above is basically how I operate Libronix, for the same issues you mention. I have a dedicated PC in the music room which runs Libronix and also all the older synths (completely offline). And I have a virtual box on my W7 that similarly runs Libronix (the virtual box being offline).

This strategy works with Logos 4, 5, and 6 as well - if you want to.

GIVEN the approaches Logos/Faithlife offers, that I outlined above, is there a remaining concern? Aren't all the choices offered?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656452#Comment_656452

Anything in technology will push you to update, I mean anything. Otherwise it would be a dead company

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656452#Comment_656452

Don, 'yes' is not entirely correct to 'status quo'.

For example if one chose the status quo for Libronix just 5 years back, you'd be finished (IE would have nailed you and did, for my W7 copy). Similarly Logos4: as MS changes the platform, Logos doesn't update/maintain, finished.

So a status quo relative to the OPs vision? No. L5 will be dead in the water in 4-5 years (absent some other user action). Only by unplugging the PC from the internet, as I mentioned, would allow a 'status quo' (which of course would not be a status quo).

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656460#Comment_656460

As time goes on I am disturbed by the direction of Logos. It goes more and more into the cloud. Major features of 6, like the Atlas, require an active connection tot he internet to use. I do not think Logos is going anywhere anytime soon. But lots of us have much invested into our Library's and I have always taken solace in the fact I could create a VM of OS and run Logos to maintain my Library on my computer. But in situation where Logos servers are required to use resources we own (yes it is technically licenses), having a VM is about as useful as having a rotary phone.

-Dan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656481#Comment_656481

Dan, everything in technology progressing toward cloud. Those programs which don't go to that direction will be left behind

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656460#Comment_656460

Don, 'yes' is not entirely correct to 'status quo'.

We can argue semantics of words until we are blue in the face. I still maintain Logos offers every choice from doing nothing to upgrades of features and resources, that's all. Logos 6 will run a lot longer if you choose, in current revision, than Windows 7, Photoshop, Evernote, Gmail, IE, Quicken, Turbo Tax, or just about any other piece of software in its current revision, and certainly no worse.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656502#Comment_656502

The issue isn't just semantics ... it's an individuals investment in the Word. And whether no worse (which the OP didn't ask), the end result is the same. Dead in the water (if status quo).

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656481#Comment_656481

Major features of 6, like the Atlas, require an active connection tot he internet to use. (...) I have always taken solace in the fact I could create a VM of OS and run Logos to maintain my Library on my computer. But in situation where Logos servers are required to use resources we own (yes it is technically licenses), having a VM is about as useful as having a rotary phone.

The maps are too big for our HD's/SSD's. Would you prefer not to have them at all? Because that's the alternative.

Unix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656529#Comment_656529

Yes:

Would you prefer not to have them at all? Because that's the alternative.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656530#Comment_656530

Unix, just dissable the internet and you won't have them [:P]

Ben

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656570#Comment_656570

this only pathway keeping your resources and you study.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656665#Comment_656665

I am not too worried about the atlas or the scanned books for that matter. But i also hope our basic resources and majority of functionality will be at least downloaded to our computer for offline usage. If Logos 7 offers online storage so you need not take up space on your computer I would not be terribly happy with that thought even though that is basically already the way our mobile apps work. To the best of my knowledge the only resources I am lacking on my mobile devices are the Jerome Biblical Commentary and Oxford Bible Commentary (I would guess there are also new 6 resources not yet accessible on mobile ).

-Dan

Steve

Thank you all, I think I understand this issue better now from your comments.

If Logos is committed to releasing the core engine for free then I guess I don't have a problem.

So I guess I wasn't totally clear on what I meant by status quo. By status quo I mean as long as I can continue to upgrade my computer OS and receive free core engine upgrades and still be able to read all my existing books then that is status quo for me.

But, if I understand correctly from Denise is that, if I ever want to run Logos in a completely isolated mode (status quo), I already have everything from my current installation to reinstall Logos offline? For instance if I were to reformat my hard drive and reload Win OS, I can reload the entire Logos program from my C:\Users\Steve\AppData\Local\Logos4 directory?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656782#Comment_656782

For instance if I were to reformat my hard drive and reload Win OS, I can reload the entire Logos program from my C:\Users\Steve\AppData\Local\Logos4 directory?

Welcome [:D]

Wiki has => https://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers

Keep Smiling [:)]

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656501#Comment_656501

Dan, everything in technology progressing toward cloud. Those programs which don't go to that direction will be left behind

Don't agree.

There may be people/companies who want you to believe that unless everything goes 'up to the cloud' (up in smoke?) you will be a second class technology citizen, but they have a reason wanting you to believe that — because they have a vested interested in locking you into their platform. And what better way to lock you in then making you totally dependent on their online platform which they totally control.

Sure there can be benefits in being able to use the 'cloud' (and just what does the 'cloud' mean anyway separate from its marketing term) to transfer/share/replicate data — but as to saying that an application will not function at all without a 'cloud' connection is just (marketing) hype driven by commercial / governmental interests.

Further, when I hear that sort of "newspeak" which tries makes a person think if they disagree that they are engaging in "thoughtcrime", I tend to think of situations like the FBI/CIA complaining that Apple is locking them out of being able to snoop on people's mobile devices at will because Apple puts encryption on the device to protect the user's privacy.

Unix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656849#Comment_656849

I fully agree with Patrick S.! The ones that are left behind the development are individuals who don't pay any attention to CPU benchmarks when they buy hardware:

Don't agree.
There may be people/companies who want you to believe that unless everything goes 'up to the cloud' (up in smoke?) you will be a second class technology citizen, but they have a reason wanting you to believe that — because they have a vested interested in locking you into their platform. And what better way to lock you in then making you totally dependent on their online platform which they totally control.

Sure there can be benefits in being able to use the 'cloud' (and just what does the 'cloud' mean anyway separate from its marketing term) to transfer/share/replicate data — but as to saying that an application will not function at all without a 'cloud' connection is just (marketing) hype driven by commercial / governmental interests:Dan, everything in technology progressing toward cloud. Those programs which don't go to that direction will be left behind

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656849#Comment_656849

Don't agree.

There may be people/companies who want you to believe that unless everything goes 'up to the cloud' (up in smoke?) you will be a second class technology citizen, but they have a reason wanting you to believe that — because they have a vested interested in locking you into their platform. And what better way to lock you in then making you totally dependent on their online platform which they totally control.

Sure there can be benefits in being able to use the 'cloud' (and just what does the 'cloud' mean anyway separate from its marketing term) to transfer/share/replicate data — but as to saying that an application will not function at all without a 'cloud' connection is just (marketing) hype driven by commercial / governmental interests.

Further, when I hear that sort of "newspeak" which tries makes a person think if they disagree that they are engaging in "thoughtcrime", I tend to think of situations like the FBI/CIA complaining that Apple is locking them out of being able to snoop on people's mobile devices at will because Apple puts encryption on the device to protect the user's privacy.

Patrick, I understand your concern. You don't want to be dependable on a company or "corporation". But from my perspective, we get phones, tablets, home computers, office computers and etc... Without cloud, I can't imagine a possible way to move forward with some large data libraries. I am for physical backups, but at the same time, I want to have everything in cloud as well. I can't prefer one over the other one. Both have advantages and disadvantages

PS: concerning the Atlas, if the feature is in terabytes then I would prefer it to have on cloud instead of not having it at all.

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656904#Comment_656904

Patrick, I understand your concern. You don't want to be dependable on a company or "corporation". But from my perspective, we get phones, tablets, home computers, office computers and etc... Without cloud, I can't imagine a possible way to move forward with some large data libraries. I am for physical backups, but at the same time, I want to have everything in cloud as well. I can't prefer one over the other one. Both have advantages and disadvantages

PS: concerning the Atlas, if the feature is in terabytes then I would prefer it to have on cloud instead of not having it at all.

No-one is saying that having data on some networked storage medium (what marketing hype calls 'the cloud') is intrinsically bad. The issue, particularly with some 'cloud' services/platforms, is who do you 'surrender' your data to, and how much control do you let them have over you. And, more importantly, what motivation is at the heart of these entities. For example we have situations like with Amazon where a book title that people had purchased - that is, paid money for - was, unilaterally and without notice, removed from Amazon customers' private and personal devices. Think about that... if things that people seem to be resigned to accepting in the digital world happened in the real (physical) world there would be a total outcry.

If Amazon, in the form of a person, broke into peoples' homes and took back physical books that people had paid for what do you think would happen? Well in some US states they'd be gunned down where they stood — and the law and public opinion would pat the home owner on the back.

As someone who is not an American citizen, given the recently exposed blatant arrogance of the US government believing it has the right to steal data of non-US citizens, do you think I should blindly trust my data to some 'cloud' coming under the ultimate jurisdiction of the US any government?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/657102#Comment_657102

I'm just waiting for Logos to 'Facebook' the Logos.com site. Outside of Google mail (which is hopelessly out of control), Logos is the only bad-boy I deal with (forced cloud usage). Just this week, Accordance kindly asked which of my books I might wish to download (returning to the point of the thread).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/657111#Comment_657111

I'm just waiting for Logos to 'Facebook' the Logos.com site. Outside of Google mail (which is hopelessly out of control), Logos is the only bad-boy I deal with (forced cloud usage). Just this week, Accordance kindly asked which of my books I might wish to download (returning to the point of the thread).

Denise, you seem so unhappy, so negative, so anti- the direction of Logos/Faithlife, I am curious, why are you still here? Don't you think you might be more happy not immersing yourself in something that gives you such unhappiness on a daily basis? I can't imagine writing so many negative posts and feeling happy through the process - it's like you have devoted your online life to criticism and diatribe of Faithlife. Does it bring you joy? Gosh I wish you could find a way to be happy, I don't think it is here.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/657102#Comment_657102

For example we have situations like with Amazon where a book title that people had purchased - that is, paid money for - was, unilaterally and without notice, removed from Amazon customers' private and personal devices.

Cut the ________. A single instance which Amazon admitted was a mistake, apologized for and has not repeated does not an argument make. And Logos is international so please leave out your personal view of American politics - it's irrelevant. You earn 3 fallacy hounds.

To bring the thread back to the subject of Logos software, I just had a fellow parishioner objecting that Logos didn't do more in the cloud so that he could access more of the power of the PC app on his tablet during classes. Which is to say, user opinion regarding the cloud goes both ways and both groups of users have legitimate reasons for their needs (if not always for their opinions).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/657118#Comment_657118

Don, you seem especially naive. If you read my posts, I'm quite happy with my Libronix and indeed Logos. And I'm probably the poster-girl for Bob's intent of a user self-educating themselves. My subjects bounce around and I'm a kid in a candy store. I'd be willing to bet (real money), I read more books per-capita from Logos than most. And unlike most, whenever I find an unusual subject that's not likely to be popular, I mention it to other self-educators.

But you're correct regarding Logos the company. When it comes to a company that locks me in on how I roam my self-education, happy I am not. Forced downloads right off the bat. I've whined about that from late October 2009. And I'll likely keep whining.

I know, I know. It's uncomfortable for you. It's uncomfortable for most Logosians, when Logos is not held in highest esteem. For some reason, the company is very similar to a religion or a political party. And the answer to questioners for both, is the suggestion you made.