Logos by Subscription?

I believe the future is a mix of purchased and subscription products. The benefits of full purchase are obvious: pay once, you get it, and you're done.

But full purchase requires local installation (great for offline use, bad for system incompatibilities, support, OS upgrades, multiple devices, etc.) and your locally installed software can 'get stale.' Not to mention, you need to back things up, move personal data between devices, etc.

Subscription products (particularly web-delivered) risk going down when the company dies, or its servers do (!), but offer lower up front costs, easier access from new/different devices, no local storage or maintenance needs, etc.

To a business, subscribers represent less cash up front (bad!) but hopefully more cash down the road (good), more predictable cash flow (good), and revenue that funds ongoing support costs for data storage, software maintenance, etc.

With all that said... I'd love to get your input on what types of subscriptions Logos could/should offer. Note that we already offer Proclaim by subscription only -- so there's never a need to 'buy an upgrade' -- but you are paying for it every month. Smaller updates come out more frequently, and new media content is offered via the Pro Media add-on subscription every month. We also offer some resources for rental now: https://blog.logos.com/2013/09/new-rent-logos-resources/

(To keep this from being an 'own vs. rent' religious war, I will stipulate right now that we are not intending to end the ability to buy Logos Bible Software in a single transaction. This is about getting input for new models to reach people who can't / won't buy it, or to offer more affordable or more flexible access to new kinds of content.)

Discussion Ideas:

Online only vs. offline software, too. Should subscription access to Logos Bible Software be only for online use (say, http://biblia.com with lots more functionality from the desktop version) or should you be able to use the desktop apps by subscription, too?

Whole books or growing libraries. Subscriptions could be to specific sets of titles -- these 400 books for a monthly access fee -- or only to things that grow, like our media libraries, teaching media, etc. Collections of content that you subscribe to because the subscription revenue goes into creating more content.

Temporary book access. When you subscribe to Netflix you get access to thousands of streaming movies, but movies come and go from the collection. Would you subscribe to a 1,000 book library if not all the books were permanent? What if 100 of the books rotated every three months? You might get fresher / more-valuable new content from publishers, but only for a few months. (This could incentivize publishers to allow more valuable content into a subscription library, in the hopes that it would provoke some permanent sales.)

All-in or toe-in-the-water. If you were going to subscribe, would you like to just pay one monthly fee and get access to a massive library ($100/mo for Collector's?) or would you prefer to still own your core library and purchase smaller supplemental subscriptions? ($10/mo for a supplemental set of resources.)

Subscription groups. Would a subscription be more valuable if it could be shared? What if a pastor bought a large subscription, but as a side effect everyone in that church (or on that church's staff?) got access to a portion of it, too? (Pastor gets Collector's Edition for online/offline use, whole church gets Starter equivalent for online and mobile use?) Would this make it more attractive to subscribe?

A vote on new content. Netflix and Amazon both offer original television shows as part of their streaming video products. Netflix crunches data to guess what people will want, and produces a whole season. Amazon made ten pilots and let customers vote on which ones got full seasons. What if subscribers could vote on new data sets, annotation, tagging, and media creation? A certain percentage of subscription revenue could be dedicated to new content production, and users could collectively direct that content creation.

How much? Netflix is $8.99 / month, but satellite television can top $100 / month. Internet access can be $20-50+ / month. What price points should Logos offer? Just low price points with multiple options/collections so you can build your own subscription? Or a single, higher price with tons more content in the subscription?

What are your thoughts?

-- Bob

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Comments

Unix

I for one would not be at all interested in options that can't be installed locally although I do understand the reason behind why that would be an option:

Subscription products (particularly web-delivered) risk going down when the company dies, or its servers do (!), but offer lower up front costs, easier access from new/different devices, no local storage or maintenance needs, etc.

I would feel much better about an option to get rid of all the items in Starter (for example when upgrading a lifetime purchase):

Subscription groups. Would a subscription be more valuable if it could be shared? What if a pastor bought a large subscription, but as a side effect everyone in that church (or on that church's staff?) got access to a portion of it, too? (Pastor gets Collector's Edition for online/offline use, whole church gets Starter equivalent for online and mobile use?) Would this make it more attractive to subscribe?

This sounds OK:

Temporary book access. When you subscribe to Netflix you get access to thousands of streaming movies, but movies come and go from the collection. Would you subscribe to a 1,000 book library if not all the books were permanent? What if 100 of the books rotated every three months? You might get fresher / more-valuable new content from publishers, but only for a few months. (This could incentivize publishers to allow more valuable content into a subscription library, in the hopes that it would provoke some permanent sales.)

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668607#Comment_668607

I am not sure how you could combine the two approaches successfully (both practically and financially) and there is the worry that those of us who have sunk literally a small fortune into our libraries could be left behind when new developments sideline us.

I do believe that there is an obvious issue of how do you fund servicing existing libraries when they generate no income, and the tactic you have adopted of continual growth is always bound to end badly.

Unix

As a precaution, in order to enable offline usage too You'd have to create a rule that each user who has subscribed to those items would have to sign in with their softwares regularly or else a timer built-in in the desktop app would erase that subscribed content:

Online only vs. offline software, too. Should subscription access to Logos Bible Software be only for online use (say, http://biblia.com with lots more functionality from the desktop version) or should you be able to use the desktop apps by subscription, too?

James Hiddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668614#Comment_668614

A monthly rental library maybe. Rent certain books and collections that Logos offers and if one likes it they can buy it at a discount.

Unix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668623#Comment_668623

Bob, if You believe it would result in less download, it would be a good idea.

Whyndell Grizzard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668622#Comment_668622

Not interested in subscriptions at all, at any level. I want to own what I pay for.

Graham Criddle

Hi Bob

Thanks for raising this and for asking our opinions

Online only vs. offline software, too. Should subscription access to Logos Bible Software be only for online use (say, http://biblia.com with lots more functionality from the desktop version) or should you be able to use the desktop apps by subscription, too?

I think that any subscription model should extend to offline use as well. While the core apps are free it could be useful to be able to subscribe to different datasets and resources - in a similar way to how I can currently subscribe to the complete set of Classic Commentaries and use them within my Logos environment

Whole books or growing libraries. Subscriptions could be to specific sets of titles -- these 400 books for a monthly access fee -- or only to things that grow, like our media libraries, teaching media, etc. Collections of content that you subscribe to because the subscription revenue goes into creating more content.

I think having both options would be ideal. I was recently looking at the option of renting the 7 volume "Baker Commentary on the Old Testament Wisdom and Psalms as I wanted access to Goldingay's commentary on the Psalms for a series I was doing and having this option is helpful.

Temporary book access. When you subscribe to Netflix you get access to thousands of streaming movies, but movies come and go from the collection. Would you subscribe to a 1,000 book library if not all the books were permanent? What if 100 of the books rotated every three months? You might get fresher / more-valuable new content from publishers, but only for a few months. (This could incentivize publishers to allow more valuable content into a subscription library, in the hopes that it would provoke some permanent sales.)

Personally I wouldn't find this useful as I like to know that what I have "obtained" is something I will have access to in the future

All-in or toe-in-the-water. If you were going to subscribe, would you like to just pay one monthly fee and get access to a massive library ($100/mo for Collector's?) or would you prefer to still own your core library and purchase smaller supplemental subscriptions? ($10/mo for a supplemental set of resources.)

I would go for the latter option - allows greater flexibility in building the library I want

Subscription groups. Would a subscription be more valuable if it could be shared? What if a pastor bought a large subscription, but as a side effect everyone in that church (or on that church's staff?) got access to a portion of it, too? (Pastor gets Collector's Edition for online/offline use, whole church gets Starter equivalent for online and mobile use?) Would this make it more attractive to subscribe?

This could be helpful in some contexts. In my current situation it wouldn't be particularly helpful

A vote on new content. Netflix and Amazon both offer original television shows as part of their streaming video products. Netflix crunches data to guess what people will want, and produces a whole season. Amazon made ten pilots and let customers vote on which ones got full seasons. What if subscribers could vote on new data sets, annotation, tagging, and media creation? A certain percentage of subscription revenue could be dedicated to new content production, and users could collectively direct that content creation.

It sounds interesting but I'm not sure how it would really work.

I didn't know that I "needed" the new capabilities in Logos 6 but I find them very useful - would need to work through how to provide a sufficiently informed context for such an option to work

How much? Netflix is $8.99 / month, but satellite television can top $100 / month. Internet access can be $20-50+ / month. What price points should Logos offer? Just low price points with multiple options/collections so you can build your own subscription? Or a single, higher price with tons more content in the subscription?

I would go for the low print points with options approach - it would provide much more flexibility but could - presumably - be more complex to manage

Overall I'm still not convinced, however, that I would personally use a subscription model. I think that I would rather make upfront payments and know that was it (in the Bakers example above I ended up purchasing the Goldingay volumes)

Hope this is helpful.

Graham

Erwin Stull, Sr.

Subscriptions may offer some advantage to a strictly academic student setting/environment, but offer a disadvantage to constant practitioners (I guess I'm choosing the term correctly). For those who plan to keep the resources forever, a subscription will also mean paying forever without the chance of owning.

The Netflix type of option, where the resources are routinely rotated, is a definite disadvantage. What happens to ones research or study, when prior to completion, the resources that were used is suddenly taken away? Unlike watching a movie, Bible Study on a topic often takes months.

Other than a strictly academic setting, I really don't see any advantage in subscriptions of any Bible Study resource.

James Hudson

I, too, would not personally be interested in a subscription option, although I guess some potential new customers may be.

A question though: What would happen if (as has happened before) Logos fails to re-negotiate its contract wth a publisher (a la Moody). With a purchase only solution, purchased books are still owned by the user even if they are no longer available for purchase by new users. I guess, in a subscription system, the books would be lost?? subscription fees reduced?? etc

Also slightly empathise with Mike Pettit and his concern that eventually purchase-only users may get sidelined a little (although I've been with Logos long enough to trust the integrity of Bob that he would not deliberately intend this to happen).

Justin Gatlin

I like owning content, and the illusion that eventually I will finish with my Logos payments. But, I can definitely see the value of subscriptions.

For me, online only is a non-starter. I am already frustrated with Logos dependence on the cloud. A lot of us are in rural areas and need reliable Bible study too.

How much - I think this should be linked to the cost to buy. I will address this out of order, since I will use this formula later. Maybe what payments would be on a 4 year purchase. Total Cost/48 months + $5 fee, like you would for payments

Libraries - I think subscriptions could be done on a basis similar to collections. If I am teaching through Colossians, I might subscribe to the Platinum library ($50/mo), as well as the XL Bible Backgrounds bundle ($12/mo),the XL NT Studies Bundle ($12/mo) and the XL Pauline Studies Bundle ($12/mo). That is $86/mo. If the $5 fee is only charged once, instead of on each part, that puts me at $71/mo. That would be reasonable. Offer a church subscription access to Gold for the pastor (reg $37/mo), 3 bundles for the current series, Proclaim and online access to starter for the church for $100/mo and I think you are really onto something. I don't think that should be tied to church size, since I think that Logos will sell to more individuals with the exposure, and publishers should recognize that. The Starter subscription can only be initiated through a Proclaim signal and will be tied to that church's monthly subscription from that point on, to minimize abuse. Unlike with purchases, you would really have to negotiate some discount for the Associate/Youth/etc. I think half price on the lower package would be fair (so if the church has the $100/month Platinum combo, the Youth Pastor can get Gold for $21/mo (1550/(48*2))+5, reg. $37.

I really like the "subscription groups" idea, especially if Proclaim's cues could link people to a part of the book from the church subscription. I would like to see this for the upper level purchases, though, not just subscriptions. Since books.logos.com comes with a 2-year free subscription with your base package, it could be that all church members get access to 2 years of starter with a purchase of Platinum or higher. This would keep those who have bought software outright from becoming second class citizens in the Logos ecosystem.

I think CP is still the best way to determine new content, and that people who are purchasing outright will always make up a large enough portion of the user base for that to work.

EastTN

My only interest in a rental option would be for expensive, voluminous reference materials that I would use once in a blue moon. In other words, the kind of materials that I would be unlikely to ever buy in paper format, but might go to a university library for if I had a special research project. For me, examples might be:

Collections of theological journals (e.g., Library of Hebrew Bible/Old Testament Studies)
Migne's Patrilogia series
The Fathers of the Church series
Muller's Sacred Books of the East
The Classics of Western Spirituality: Judaism, Islam and Native American Religions series
Archives of historical documents for the various churches and denominations

For books that I might have purchased in paper form, I would rather own than rent. But I would gladly pay a reasonable fee to avoid having to hoof it down to the library for the research materials I would never buy for myself. In a truly perfect world, I'd like to have the option to pay the fee on an ad hoc basis - say, for example, one month's access to Migne or the Fathers of the Church when I'm doing a paper on the early church.

Bruce Dunning

I am one of those people who would prefer to own rather than rent but I see the value of both.

If I was to subscribe

I'd definitely like to be able to do it off-line as well because there are many places I go that still don't have access to the internet and there is not even any cellular coverage.
I'd like the option to be able to subscribe to different sizes of packages e.g. single volume, a series, a category of books and perhaps one that would cover everything. Obviously they would have to be priced accordingly.

I don't like the idea of subscribers being able to vote on new content. Why should subscribers get preference over owners in this regard? If they did get preference it would imply that they valued more highly and I don't think this should be the case.

Bob, thanks for continually asking our opinions on things. Much appreciated. [Y]

Russ White

So -- IMHO, subscription can mean multiple things, and it all depends on what you mean when you use the term. For instance, I subscribe to Office rather than purchasing Office yearly -- the value is good, and the product solid. The key point is, though -- Office works when the MS servers are off line, or I don't have an internet connection. Software that I must be connected to the internet to use in full is generally useless. When I was in Greenland this summer, access was so expensive as to require essentially shutting down my wifi -- if Logos would have connected to its servers so I could access some piece of information, the result could easily have been a bill that was multiple hundreds of dollars.

The second issue is that you're resource bound with Logos, rather than feature bound. If there were certain data sets I could subscribe to, rather than purchase, I might be interested... For the length of a study, or a particular project, or a paper. The resources I tend to buy in Logos, however, tend to be resources I think i will use for the next 20 years. It's going to take some changing of the ship to make users get used to thinking of Logos as a rental rather than a license, and the licensing is going to be really confusing really fast (as if it weren't confusing enough -- several of my friends didn't upgrade to 6 at all simply because they couldn't figure the packages, crossgrades and various options out, so they gave up and stuck with 5).

So, bottom line -- so long as "rental" isn't tied up with "cloud" (I know you think cloud is the future, but I can tell you there is already backlash building, even on the consumer side -- see my talk at TFI2014), and so long as the licensing makes perfectly clear sense (you're already losing sales because of your complex model), then rental is a viable idea.

HTH

Russ

Pastor Kay

Ooh! Now this is exciting. I think I'm mostly interested in offline options- though I might pay a buck to try something online-only for a couple hours, just to get a feel for a resource.

I think I'd be most interested in small supplemental rental options- particularly of big-budget items, like the Anchor Bible Commentaries. Possibly also rent-to-own (rent it for a month to try it, and at the end of the month get the option to either A- rent it another month, B- continue paying the "rental" price as a payment plan, essentially going into a several-month payment plan but with the option to cancel and give back the resource at any time with no consequences, C- give it back but Logos keeps the one month rental fee, D- pay the purchase price minus rental fee in full.

To organize these options going by author or series might be best, or perhaps even publisher- but please keep sensible boundaries. I don't want to only be able to rent Luther's Works if I also have to download 5000 100 year old Baptist sermons. (In fact, with group download rentals there should always be an option to opt-out of each piece, still paying full price for the rental. And I imagine that Dynamic Pricing, if you're going to rent something you already own a piece of, might be kind of irritating for you all but I would expect it.)

Being able to "rent' the big packages for one month as a trial, with no consequences if you decided to give it back at the end, would be lovely too. (Or less than a month, but certainly a couple weeks). (Say $20 to try Anchor Bible?) Would this be like TurningArt where the rental fees you pay turn into store credit and you can use them to buy stuff?

Students could rent textbooks from you and then decide if they want to keep them at the end of their class- paying say ten dollars a month for five months and then deciding at the end if they want to pay the rest, or in installments, or give it back.

The rotating temporary library sounds trickier- not sure I'd subscribe to that on more than a single-rotation basis. Unless you told us in advance everything that would rotate in and out for a full year ahead of time?

If I'm going to pay you a hundred dollars I'd rather just buy something I can keep. I'd say keep all rental prices under $30 a month- mostly well under.

However, I would like to point out that I like the idea but would prefer you add a few more things to some of your current software first (being able to read clippings and sort the library by tags, collection, or download status on the Windows store app, which is all my tablet can support, would be AWESOME).

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668744#Comment_668744

I think all subscription models will go the way of the dodo. There's just no real-life scenario where they're needed.

With one major exception: institutional clients, e.g research bodies, theological seminaries, etc. You'd need to tweak the licencing and login model.

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668748#Comment_668748

Your questions prompted my recollection of my former employer which specialized in fleet leasing (automobiles, vans, trucks) for corporate clients. Their approach was to handle most every aspect of supplying, maintaining, insuring, registrations, licensing and fueling. Very complex business model but it took an enormous burden off their clients.

I think that either seminaries and libraries would be your best market for this if you can provide a service that minimizes their burden.

For most of us, maybe a subscribe/rent with an option to own might suffice.

Ted Weis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668776#Comment_668776

Subscriptions for temporary access to Mobile Education courses could be appealing

Dave Moser

Bob,

Thanks for asking the community about this. The reasons I can see myself renting from Logos:

I'm working on a sermon/study/project and really want to work from an individual commentary/background/resource for which I don't want to pay full price and won't use after the immediate work is done.
I'm looking into the quality of a commentary/media/etc set and want to use one volume of the set to consider buying the whole thing.

At no point do I see myself renting a large library (that, knowing Logos, won't be focused in any useful way - remember how Beale's NT theology was locked away in that ridiculous collection for ages? Yep, had to buy it in hard back). That's going to influence my answers:

Online only vs. offline software, too. Should subscription access to Logos Bible Software be only for online use (say, http://biblia.com with lots more functionality from the desktop version) or should you be able to use the desktop apps by subscription, too?

It would be more convenient for me if my rented product was well integrated into my normal workflow. I would rent more frequently if this were the case.

Temporary book access. When you subscribe to Netflix you get access to thousands of streaming movies, but movies come and go from the collection. Would you subscribe to a 1,000 book library if not all the books were permanent? What if 100 of the books rotated every three months? You might get fresher / more-valuable new content from publishers, but only for a few months. (This could incentivize publishers to allow more valuable content into a subscription library, in the hopes that it would provoke some permanent sales.)

I would almost certainly not lease a Netflix-style library. As I indicated above, I only foresee myself renting specific resources for specific tasks, not trying out large libraries. If I have to choose between renting a 1k-book library or not renting at all, I won't spend the money.

All-in or toe-in-the-water. If you were going to subscribe, would you like to just pay one monthly fee and get access to a massive library ($100/mo for Collector's?) or would you prefer to still own your core library and purchase smaller supplemental subscriptions? ($10/mo for a supplemental set of resources.)

I would only rent to supplement my library.

Subscription groups. Would a subscription be more valuable if it could be shared? What if a pastor bought a large subscription, but as a side effect everyone in that church (or on that church's staff?) got access to a portion of it, too? (Pastor gets Collector's Edition for online/offline use, whole church gets Starter equivalent for online and mobile use?) Would this make it more attractive to subscribe?

Getting a whole church to adopt an update to the pew Bible they use is hard enough. There's no way I'm going to get a congregation to jump into a specific brand of Bible software. I could see this working at a university/seminary/Christian publishing company but not in local churches.

A vote on new content. Netflix and Amazon both offer original television shows as part of their streaming video products. Netflix crunches data to guess what people will want, and produces a whole season. Amazon made ten pilots and let customers vote on which ones got full seasons. What if subscribers could vote on new data sets, annotation, tagging, and media creation? A certain percentage of subscription revenue could be dedicated to new content production, and users could collectively direct that content creation.

Time lag is the fundamental problem here: With the length of time between request, prepub, "in development" to final launch it's not like I ever get the resource I need in Logos format before the project I'm working on is long over so what's the point? No one cares about this for Netflix because entertainment isn't time-critical. If Logos was just for my personal enjoyment that would be one thing but it's for my classes and ministry - I have deadlines that don't wait for my votes to become someone else's projects before it's ever available to me.

If my auto mechanic told me he couldn't work on my car because the wrench he voted on was in prepub I'd find a new mechanic. The product you built is for users who, like the mechanic, need professional tools at a moment's notice not months from now.

Also, don't we have the suggestions forum and Uservoice for just this purpose? How would this proposal be different?

How much? Netflix is $8.99 / month, but satellite television can top $100 / month. Internet access can be $20-50+ / month. What price points should Logos offer? Just low price points with multiple options/collections so you can build your own subscription? Or a single, higher price with tons more content in the subscription?

An example of a rental model I'd use: I want to rent an individual NICOT volume for a month for $5.

Cynthia Tucker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668826#Comment_668826

I'd like a rent to own option, but I wonder how it would be different than the payment plan I'm on now? I guess renting would be cheaper? I'm viewing the Rent Logos Resources page now to get an idea of how that's already working.

EDIT: OK I've checked it out. The Classic Commentaries are on my wish list. (By the way, the link to this set on the rental page posted above doesn't work.)

It's $124 a month for 24 months if I want to own it and $49.95 per month to rent. I could only see myself renting it for no longer than 3 months. After that, I'd feel I might as well purchase it.

Tes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668627#Comment_668627

Not interested in subscriptions at all, at any level. I want to own what I pay for.

I agree with you100%.

Matt Hamrick

I would like to keep my current library and always have the option to buy a product in a single transaction. That being said, a subscription model to generate new users would be fine as long as there are still options to buy a product in a single transaction. Having several price options for more content would suffice. For subscription users content should be available offline.

Matthew Langlois

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668845#Comment_668845

Not interested in subscriptions at all, at any level. I want to own what I pay for.

I agree with you100%.

Ditto

David Paul

I understand why folks say they want to own. People want to have confidence that access isn't taken away for whatever reason. I have those same feelings, but just as much I want access to the whole enchilada. When I do a search, I want to search everything that can be searched. But the rub is I know I can't afford to buy the whole enchilada (at least not now). But, I probably could rent it.

But there's another rub. I was much more interested in a subscription $25-30K ago. I'm not so sure it makes as much sense now. But perhaps it could, depending on the structure of the offerings--some form of dynamic pricing might help. I have two potential scenarios that would make a subscription attractive. I would like to eventually get my kids using Logos, but replicating my library for each of them (what I'd like to do) is not only prohibitively expensive, it is out and out absurd that I should have to consider it. I understand why the seed of the Logos business plan included the single-user model, but at some point it is just plain stupid to say my children, even as adults, have to have their own 10-12,000 resource library when we are doing study in the same location. My kids should be able to use my library on some level. What I'd like to see is a base package requirement for individuals, but beyond that family members should get access to additional resources that are effectively owned in common. Yes, this would include some tweaking of the EULA, but I can say outright that the EULA as is has the effect of keeping me from spending additional money to get my kids their own libraries. The idea reeks of bad value. Getting a high quality, high utility library for myself for $30K, and then having to turn around and get two more for each of my kids? Seriously???

If something could be done to give my kids legitimate access to everything I own, as long as it isn't insultingly expensive, would be something that interests me.

The other scenario is that at some point in the future, I might have some assistants whom I would like to assign study projects. I would thus want to leverage my library by having others use my library to work on such assignments. If I have 6 people working for me and I want them each to be able to access ICC and AYB and NIC(OT/NT), for instance, I don't for one second think they should have to each have their own copy of each of these, or each have Hoarder's Edition, for that matter, in order to study the things I have assigned them.

If some acceptable subscription options could make these scenarios possible, I would be very interested.

Cynthia Tucker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668878#Comment_668878

Extremely good points! I'd like to get my daughter started on Logos, and since I'm a writer, could easily see needing an assistant at some point, Two thumbs up for these ideas.

I understand why folks say they want to own. People want to have confidence that access isn't taken away for whatever reason. I have those same feelings, but just as much I want access to the whole enchilada. When I do a search, I want to search everything that can be searched. But the rub is I know I can't afford to buy the whole enchilada (at least not now). But, I probably could rent it.

But there's another rub. I was much more interested in a subscription $25-30K ago. I'm not so sure it makes as much sense now. But perhaps it could, depending on the structure of the offerings. I have two potential scenarios that would make a subscription attractive. I would like to eventually get my kids using Logos, but replicating my library for each of them (what I'd like to do) is not only prohibitively expensive, it is out and out absurd that I should have to consider it. I understand why the seed of the Logos business plan included the single-user model, but at some point it is just plain stupid to say my children, even as adults, have to have their own 10-12,000 resource library when we are doing study in the same location. My kids should be able to use my library on some level. What I'd like to see is a base package requirement for individuals, but beyond that family members should get access to additional resources that are effectively owned in common. Yes, this would include some tweaking of the EULA, but I can say outright that the EULA as is has the effect of keeping me from spending additional money to get my kids their own libraries. The idea reeks of bad value. Getting a high quality, high utility library for myself for $30K, and then having to turn around and get two more for each of my kids? Seriously???

If something could be done to give my kids legitimate access to everything I own, as long as it isn't insultingly expensive, would be something that interests me.

The other scenario is that at some point in the future, I might have some assistants whom I would like to assign study projects. I would thus want to leverage my library by having others use my library to work on such assignments. If I have 6 people working for me and I want them each to be able to access ICC and AYB and NIC(OT/NT), for instance, I don't for one second think they should have to each have their own copy of each of these, or each have Hoarder's Edition, for that matter, in order to study the things I have assigned them.

If some acceptable subscription options could make these scenarios possible, I would be very interested.

James Hiddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668878#Comment_668878

I understand why folks say they want to own. People want to have confidence that access isn't taken away for whatever reason. I have those same feelings, but just as much I want access to the whole enchilada. When I do a search, I want to search everything that can be searched. But the rub is I know I can't afford to buy the whole enchilada (at least not now). But, I probably could rent it.

But there's another rub. I was much more interested in a subscription $25-30K ago. I'm not so sure it makes as much sense now. But perhaps it could, depending on the structure of the offerings--some form of dynamic pricing might help. I have two potential scenarios that would make a subscription attractive. I would like to eventually get my kids using Logos, but replicating my library for each of them (what I'd like to do) is not only prohibitively expensive, it is out and out absurd that I should have to consider it. I understand why the seed of the Logos business plan included the single-user model, but at some point it is just plain stupid to say my children, even as adults, have to have their own 10-12,000 resource library when we are doing study in the same location. My kids should be able to use my library on some level. What I'd like to see is a base package requirement for individuals, but beyond that family members should get access to additional resources that are effectively owned in common. Yes, this would include some tweaking of the EULA, but I can say outright that the EULA as is has the effect of keeping me from spending additional money to get my kids their own libraries. The idea reeks of bad value. Getting a high quality, high utility library for myself for $30K, and then having to turn around and get two more for each of my kids? Seriously???

If something could be done to give my kids legitimate access to everything I own, as long as it isn't insultingly expensive, would be something that interests me.

The other scenario is that at some point in the future, I might have some assistants whom I would like to assign study projects. I would thus want to leverage my library by having others use my library to work on such assignments. If I have 6 people working for me and I want them each to be able to access ICC and AYB and NIC(OT/NT), for instance, I don't for one second think they should have to each have their own copy of each of these, or each have Hoarder's Edition, for that matter, in order to study the things I have assigned them.

If some acceptable subscription options could make these scenarios possible, I would be very interested.

I agree with this. Why not share it as long as it's under one IP address. It would also be nice if you could transfer to another network for a fee. For example a new pastor who uses Logos for home just started a church and has a large library by having the Collectors Edition and extra books,etc he uses at home to transfer his collection and library to his church on a set of computers and makes that a virtual church library that church members have access too.

Nathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668880#Comment_668880

I would be interested in a cloud based desktop subscription. The whole indexing issue just really really REALLY irritates me, very inefficient. Different base packages could be available. No more indexing, no more fancy hardware requirements, no more huge downloads. Available with the click of a tiny executable. Massive access to resources, at a good price. Powerful Bible software available to the masses without the hassle. All you would need is moderately good internet service.

Russ White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668898#Comment_668898

I would be interested in a cloud based desktop subscription. The whole indexing issue just really really REALLY irritates me, very inefficient. Different base packages could be available. No more indexing, no more fancy hardware requirements, no more huge downloads. Available with the click of a tiny executable. Massive access to resources, at a good price. Powerful Bible software available to the masses without the hassle. All you would need is moderately good internet service.

When you start actually paying for the network, you'll quickly realize this isn't as cheap as it seems. Right now providers subsidize their networks off content and services -- the entire net neutrality debate comes down this single point. Services carry the cost of the network. When you put all the services thousands of miles away from the users, then someone must bear the cost of transporting the services.

That will be you.

And I can tell you -- networks are more expensive than "fancy hardware," and "hard drives."

:-)

Russ

Andy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668842#Comment_668842

I prefer to own my resources. I would only be interesting in moving to a subscription model if your rental prices were as competitive as, say, Netflix (which I suspect is unachievable given the 'value-added' nature of Logos resources). I wonder, however, whether Netflix-type subscription prices is more achievable with Vyrso products.

As others have suggested, I would, perhaps, be interested in renting from Mobile Ed. This would only be attractive, however, if I get to keep the transcript (but not the media). I would want to be able to attach my notes to something that I get to keep within my library. Again, I might be interested in renting curated collections to accompany the Mobile Ed. course.

More broadly, I would also support a rent-to-buy model whereby we pay a lower rental price and, at the end of the term, get to purchase the product outright at a discounted rate (having taken into account the rental fees paid - almost like a deferred payment plan).

Subscription groups is an interesting concept. I would be interested in seeing Faithlife offering curated collections, by subscription, to groups. These curated collections could then be used in a classroom or small group context.

In terms of price points, I would be willing to pay up to $110 a month for a sizeable library of premium items on a rent-to-by model.

However, I would suggest that something closer to the Netflix subscription cost would be more attractive to a lay-reader engaged in a small group and wanting to rent a curated collection with some core functionality to support a course or class. Again, a rent-to-buy model may well tempt such a reader to take the jump to a base package following conclusion of the course and expiry of the licence.

Everett Headley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668959#Comment_668959

I agree that is don't want any subscription services at all. Unless that is the only way that Logos will fix the journal issue.

Rayner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668826#Comment_668826

The reasons I can see myself renting from Logos:

I'm working on a sermon/study/project and really want to work from an individual commentary/background/resource for which I don't want to pay full price and won't use after the immediate work is done.

I'm looking into the quality of a commentary/media/etc set and want to use one volume of the set to consider buying the whole thing.

At no point do I see myself renting a large library (that, knowing Logos, won't be focused in any useful way - remember how Beale's NT theology was locked away in that ridiculous collection for ages? Yep, had to buy it in hard back).

I basically agree entirely with the above, but would also submit a third reason that I'd subscribe which would be for solid Anglican and academic journal access. I don't need to own the journals, but they're often impossible to obtain without affiliation to an academic instituition which ceases once one leaves university / seminary.

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668845#Comment_668845

Not interested in subscriptions at all, at any level. I want to own what I pay for.

I agree with you100%.

[Y]

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668978#Comment_668978

Let me make a distinction that I'm not sure is made clear by some of the posts.

When we buy from Logos (and I do, extensively) we don't own the title. We own rights to use the title.

In any case, I'm less interested in the rental model than the ownership model. Unless you were able to make all the titles I don't own in Logos available for 9$ like with Netflix (at that price point I'd have some returns to make and titles to cancel). Even if there was as much as a year delay between publication in Logos, and availability to subscribers.

Unix mentioned less downloads, I don't want that either. Downloads mean my titles are being updated, Downloads mean I'm getting new titles. Less downloads mean I'm not seeing typos fixed and so forth. People have the tools to limit their downloads to whatever suits their needs. That is sufficient.

Anthony

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668982#Comment_668982

Subscription models seem like they might appeal to people who would like a tailored interest that is managed for them. It may also be good for Sunday School Teachers who move from topic to topic. Seminary students may like a web-portal type access for subscriptions to save costs on a laptop; they could instead go w/a tablet or netbook, as most other applications are moving towards Software as a Service models as well (Office products, Adobe, etc).

I've enjoyed accessing Logos as is, do not seem to find it buggy (not a power user though), and like building my own library for my interests. I would like to maintain offline use, and some amount of ownership, and access to books that do not come and go.

Offline use and access to my library/all features is one of the highest factors for me. I suppose I'd lean toward some form of packages for subscription, but maintaining the main 'meat' of the model you currently have.

Anthony

If you provided the subscription service, I'd vote it to look this way:

Online only vs. offline software, too.

Online only seems more manageable.

Whole books or growing libraries.

Either?

Temporary book access.

There would need to be some sort-of User Feedback/interaction, because what if you dump a bunch of books being read or studied? But otherwise, most books would be okay for that; I'm thinking of mostly non-scholarship level books, like non-fiction, fiction, or ministerial. (Vyrso type books)

All-in or toe-in-the-water.

The only thing I'd ever rent would be an expensive commentary or reference type book, and only for a short period, or I'd just buy it. In fact I'd probably only rent to sample if it was useful enough to buy. Again, I think it would change if we were talking about book selection from Vyrso.

Subscription groups.

I think this is a great idea! While my church is in the stone-age of technology, I think large churches w/tech savvy congregants would love it.

A vote on new content.

User interaction is always good, though getting them to get involved may be a challenge.

How much?

Difficult to answer, how much data can be pulled from what users commonly choose for payment plans now? It would vary also between whether the subscription is geared towards the individual paying, or more of a group access, in which the local church could work out how to pay for it and share amongst members. For instance, church members all have access to an online church library (for their own church) and pay whatever they choose to have in their library.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668982#Comment_668982

Not being purposely disagreeable, abondservant, but the previous weekend illustrated what 'digital' was; license rights are irrelevent in the absence of a server. It's not unlike a fancy vehicle with no gasoline. Everyone has to reassure each other that the server will always work.

I'm kind of curious why the proposal uses movie distribution as Bob's primary comparison? I'm guessing maybe that's where most see 'subscriptions'?

In the Amazon example, I signed up but then un-signed up. The problem was what was included in the subscription. The 'good stuff' wasn't included (typically low-volume, high cost). But the cheapees were (good if you like fiction). That kind of matches Bob's use of the movies example.

Certainly the college library example is a gimmee. And similarly for anyone that would normally need a library, though the limitation is the Logos library (quite narrow at the subject level). But how many libraries are there, that need a significant subset deliverable on a peculiar platform?

Renting, similar to libraries, has its appeal to people doing papers. Maybe pastors doing sermons. But I'd assume the latter would want to 'buy' if they enjoyed it. So also the current 30-day return availability.

I like to rent on very narrow subjects. I get really tired of books piling up in my Kindle library (reminding me I DID waste money on that crazy author). But Logos has the bad habit of discounting a lot of titles ... so much that renting isn't that attractive.

I'd be curious just how large such a market might be. Best I can see, 'students'.

Jonathan Pitts

I've been pushing for a little while for a subscription option.

My vision is for Logos/Faithlife to handle the hardware side of things for me:

— I do most of my reading on the iPad, but I want the full Logos desktop experience in a virtual app or virtual desktop form.

— I want the same Logos experience on iPad and PC, just pick up where I left off on another device.

— I want Logos available in a hotel room, without taking a PC with me.

— The iPad has a higher-resolution screen than my Ultrabook PC, which could be good for reading in Logos, but using a remote-access app like Splashtop doesn't achieve the clarity that I would like. Could a Logos virtual app do better?

— Touchscreen control isn't perfect with Splashtop, and this could be incorporated into a Logos virtual app.

— My 128 GB SSD is nearly full, and the biggest chunk of it is Logos. I don't want to buy a computer with a bigger disk in order to store Logos resources which I am not actively using most of the time. But I do want to have those resources available quickly online if a search turns up that they may contain something of interest to what I am currently studying.

— I use no other PC software that has the same processing power requirements as Logos.

— Updates and indexing are a pain; I'd like Logos to do them for me behind the scenes. After big updates like we've had recently, there are millions of computers around the world indexing very similar material. With a virtual app, the whole Logos library could be indexed once and then pushed to the various servers.

I already have a substantial library and lots of money invested. I don't want to be paying again for a subscription to resources that I already own. I can think of three subscription models that might work (together):

— A cheap option for using my purchased library in a virtual app. Perhaps up to $25/month. This is roughly the price of a new Ultrabook PC every 5 years. The money is coming from my hardware budget not my book buying budget. I'm presuming that Logos purchasing server use for this works out a lot cheaper than me hiring a virtual machine.

— A very cheap and enticing price for subscription users to use a new resource for 24 hours. Perhaps $2; the cheaper it is the more likely I am to try something new. Searches show results from the whole Logos library; if I don't own the resource, I'm told the price for 24 hours and am just a single click away from accessing it. I can do this on several days if required. Charge me at the end of the month please, to save on international banking fees. Perhaps I could have my $2 deducted if after trying the resource I decide to buy it.

— Higher prices for multiuser licences to the whole Logos library. Various prices for 2, 5, 10, 100, 1000 users. This provides an alternative route of entry for new users and potentially some very big income if a whole church decided to subscribe.

Nathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668947#Comment_668947

When you start actually paying for the network, you'll quickly realize this isn't as cheap as it seems. Right now providers subsidize their networks off content and services -- the entire net neutrality debate comes down this single point. Services carry the cost of the network. When you put all the services thousands of miles away from the users, then someone must bear the cost of transporting the services.

That will be you.

And I can tell you -- networks are more expensive than "fancy hardware," and "hard drives."

:-)

The question was, what subscription services would we be interested in. Not what was cost efficient or easy for Logos. There ARE companies out there that are offering virtual desktops, Amazon is doing it now in the $25-60/mo. range if I remember right. Challenging yes, impossible, maybe but it seems a good fit for Logos in many ways.

Martin Folley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668627#Comment_668627

Not interested in subscriptions at all, at any level. I want to own what I pay for.

[Y]

FWIW. I have stopped using Microsoft and Adobe products because of their moves to subscription. The subscription for all of the various services mount up to the pint of being ludicrous ... and they do so quietly since every provider usually wants to emphasise that their only cost $x per month.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/669025#Comment_669025

My only interest in a subscription is to gain access to theological journals that otherwise seems to be problematic for Logos to produce regularly...and only at a very "reasonable" cost per month.

Gerard Shanley

I would like to see a lower cost with higher quantity of options but with limited access- for example like the Amazon lending library or old Netflix model where resources can be borrowed one or two at a time but for as long as you need it for a set monthly fee.

George Somsel

Not for me, but it might interest some—so long as you continue to offer "books to own." I suppose there might be an occasional work that would be of interest to rent, but not often. Perhaps a preview period (I know, there is always the 30 day money back offer).

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/669040#Comment_669040

My initial reaction is that I am happy with the existing arrangement as an individual.

That said, the idea of a Church subscription that could be used by a number of users managed from a 'private' FaithLife group could be a great way to increase Bible literacy and general interest. This wold work best if there was a reasonably low cost of entry and if the 'owner' has some control over the resources that were included in the subscription.

This ability to define the content would be great as one of the problems that I have had in the past using the Starter System or one of the Nelson packages was them not containing books that I found useful. Ironically I often buy printed copies of books that I have read in Logos for others.

Tes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/669044#Comment_669044

I think It would be more important , if Logos could lower the prices of their resources,so that more people could afford to purchase them.As for me, I don't have the habit of borrowing books. If I think something is necessary for me, if I can I buy it,if not even if the person insists me to borrow it I don't take it. Please Logos what ever you dicide,don't forget your customers like me ,who want to have more confidence on having their own resources. I completely disagree with the new proposals. I am happy with the monthly payment ,but for non-stop monthly fees ,I don't make available myself for that.

Gerard Shanley

Another thought: I think it is of crucial importance to have Mobile Ed and the associated resources available in a more affordable model such as a subscription. I cannot overstate the value I place on the Mobile Ed courses I have taken. I recommend them to anyone who will listen- however, for most people (particularly non-Logos users) they are simply too expensive. I have purchased most of them and am delighted to have them in my library- but a subscription would give them the much wider circulation they deserve.

John Goodman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/669057#Comment_669057

Alarm Bells

I think there is a difficult balance to be found here. If you make the price of a rental library too low then it devalues the investment we have already made. If you make it too high then it becomes daft to rent when you can do a payment plan. Even the thought that my 5k books would be available to rent cheaply makes me feel upset about how much I've spent. It could take years of rental at netflix prices before I would have spent this much!

I think the only time it would have helped me to rent was when I was doing my college studies and had to refer to books I was not interested in owning but now do own. Mostly I value owning the content. I do wish to be able to use Logos on Linux and Chromebook. For me that would mean having as much functionality as the ipad app on the website.

The real reason people don't buy? From my experience talking to colleagues and other students is... to do with what is in and out of the base packages. I think it's hard for people to understand that they are getting value for money when they feel like they are buying things which don't interest them just to get the things which do.

I think one of the things which would help sales most would be the option to get the equivalent discount of dynamic pricing by deselecting content from the base package which we don't want. I think you also need to add dynamic pricing to be able to purchase more than one base package at a time. I have built what is for me the perfect library but I had to do it by getting about 4 different base packages. It has been quite confusing actually. For example I have more bible dictionaries than anyone needs and two sets of church fathers, Protestant and Catholic I also have about 20 beginners greek and hebrew books but my interest lies in the heavier volumes etc. I understand that leaving these things out would not affect the price much but every little helps towards the books I do want!

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/669084#Comment_669084

The real reason people don't buy? From my experience talking to colleagues and other students is... to do with what is in and out of the base packages. I think it's hard for people to understand that they are getting value for money when they feel like they are buying things which don't interest them just to get the things which do.

You may have a point there. Why not a Chinese restaurant type menu: Pick x from group A, y from group B and z from group C?

Russ White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/669024#Comment_669024

The question was, what subscription services would we be interested in. Not what was cost efficient or easy for Logos. There ARE companies out there that are offering virtual desktops, Amazon is doing it now in the $25-60/mo. range if I remember right. Challenging yes, impossible, maybe but it seems a good fit for Logos in many ways.

Will you think it's reasonable when the price doubles to account for the cost of the "free" network currently in use? Probably not...

The point I was, and still am, making is this -- an all online system is of limited value. I know Bob and I are in conflict over this, and I know a lot of users think the cloud is the best thing since sliced bread. I live on the other side of the cloud, dealing with the companies that build the thing. I can tell you all is not well on this side of the cloud, and there's going to come a point where real money is going to need to be spent to pay for the network.

So, subscriptions are fine -- so long as they are --

- They are limited time situations, where I can plan access into the subscription cost.

- They are not the primary or only model to access these resources

I don't know how to make that happen with the sort of content Logos is designed to provide. It's not like a movie, or even a fiction book. Might work well for Vyrso, and maybe for some higher end journal collections, but I don't see how it would work for systematic theologies, or commentaries, etc.

Russ

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/669085#Comment_669085

You may have a point there. Why not a Chinese restaurant type menu: Pick x from group A, y from group B and z from group C?

I would love this. If the difference in price between resources is too much of an obstacle, it could be done in dollars rather than number of resources. In other words, pick up to $x from group A, $y from group B and $z from group C.

James Hiddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/669085#Comment_669085

The real reason people don't buy? From my experience talking to colleagues and other students is... to do with what is in and out of the base packages. I think it's hard for people to understand that they are getting value for money when they feel like they are buying things which don't interest them just to get the things which do.

You may have a point there. Why not a Chinese restaurant type menu: Pick x from group A, y from group B and z from group C?

Sort of a build your own base package. I would like that [Y]

Cynthia Tucker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/669084#Comment_669084

I think one of the things which would help sales most would be the option to get the equivalent discount of dynamic pricing by deselecting content from the base package which we don't want. I think you also need to add dynamic pricing to be able to purchase more than one base package at a time. I have built what is for me the perfect library but I had to do it by getting about 4 different base packages. It has been quite confusing actually. For example I have more bible dictionaries than anyone needs and two sets of church fathers, Protestant and Catholic I also have about 20 beginners greek and hebrew books but my interest lies in the heavier volumes etc. I understand that leaving these things out would not affect the price much but every little helps towards the books I do want!

Agree! I'm going through this now. I have Standard Gold and Baptist Diamond. I want what's in Refomed Diamond and Standard Diamond, but really only the commentaries and biblical studies, not interested in all the rest.