Are you on a Mac?

This is not a complaint... this is a concern and I am expressing my feeling. Logos 5 brought much more parity to the Mac with the Win version. I have been a Logos user since the beginning (LLS 1.1 in 1995) and have over $16,000 invested since L4. When I see questions like, "Are you on a Mac?' asked in the forums, I get really nervous about becoming a second class user again. L6 seems to be causing more problems for Mac users. Parity for the Mac side has been promised for over a decade. My investment shows that I have believed that promise. But I am concerned again...

I am a pastor and use this software everyday. This last week of broken features and crashes brought back too many memories of past use. I am gracious and forgiving. I do not mind paying for what I use. And I have paid. I expect/demand the fulfillment of the parity promise. I will not return to running this program in a virtual machine again.

Feel free to forward or send this post to every Logos/Faithlife employee.

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Don Awalt

I am running Mac and Windows Logos 6, and in general they have made very nice progress on the Mac version. Even some long standing little annoyances have been fixed, like sometimes after adding resources you click "Click to Restart" and it doesn't restart.

That said, recently with Logos 6/Mac it freezes A LOT with the spinning pie. I have seen it when checking for resources, just bringing up the Library pane, simple stuff. Not a day goes by that it doesn't happen, and there is no rhyme or reason to what I am working on - I think it must be something fundamental that's broken. I suspect it may be the new Chromium update for enhanced fonts, that is just my guess but something recently introduced has made the Mac version far less stable than the Windows version.

Hopefully this will be identified and fixed in an upcoming srvice release.

Jeffrey S. Robison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668166#Comment_668166

My hopes are the same as yours. I need my software to work... I had to resort to "dead tree" editions this past week.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668166#Comment_668166

That said, recently with Logos 6/Mac it freezes A LOT with the spinning pie. I have seen it when checking for resources, just bringing up the Library pane, simple stuff. Not a day goes by that it doesn't happen, and there is no rhyme or reason to what I am working on - I think it must be something fundamental that's broken. I suspect it may be the new Chromium update for enhanced fonts, that is just my guess but something recently introduced has made the Mac version far less stable than the Windows version.

Hmm... this is not something I am experiencing and I had fairly regular crashes with Logos 5. I hope you problems get corrected soon.

-Dan

Logos works great on my iMac. Not sure what specific issues or parity features you are referring to. Can you be more specific?

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668194#Comment_668194

Complete parity is mythical. I'm such a diehard Machead, but if I were at zero, I'd by a Win box first. (More money for Logos.) Logos on Mac works fine. The big download issue seems to be resolved and other than indexing, which appears to be faster on PC, no problems I've seen.

I've been using computers since the 1980's. Whatever problem you have will be soon forgotten.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668225#Comment_668225

Dear Bradley: Its not machine specific, its systemic . Every other mainstream program written for OS X ,used on macs runs great- people have been over this with Logos, literally hundreds of times.
Of course, there are going to be specific issues that come up on certain machines/installs- software does that- it happens.
Logos isn't written for OS X and every single Logos employee knows this- its just never going to run as well on a mac as programs written for OS X .

To all of us Mac users: Logos is never, ever going to run like a native OS X program- its never, ever going to happen. The owner of Logos has made this plain, again- over and over. Logos is written for Windows, they use an interface to make it work on a mac, it has never been written for OS X and it not ever going to be, that would be an expensive undertaking. My understanding is: They try to write once and then distribute.
Financially- this makes sense.

O think we just have to understand its not going to run on Macs as if written for Macs and, be glad for what we have.

We get what we get.
We are the second hand citizens of Logos.
We matter, financially, but not as much as the windows folk and certainly not enough for Logos to write code for our machines.

Personally just use Logos as a library and do my actual work on software written for OS X, software that flies on speed and acts like OS X softeware.

Its the only solution I could find in order to have the resources i need and, the speed to do the heavy lifting i need.

Logos is Logos, Accordance is Accordance.

Logos made a programming/code decision to support OS X , but not write code for it.

Its going to be slow ( comparatively ), its going to be clunky- we all know this and Bradley cannot fix this for us.

It is, what it is.

Im grateful for 64 bit, the progress that has been made, some of the features/tools and the incredible resources ( cannot get those anywhere else).

Grace and Peace.

Clint Cozier

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668246#Comment_668246

I'm running L6 on a two year old MBP, i7 processor, 8 GB RAM and a 500 GB SSD. Logos 6 is about on par for me with L5, I would call it "laggy." The first time I select a menu item, or try to go to the Command Box, or select a layout, it lags; I get the spinning beach ball for a couple of seconds. It's not an eternity, but it's enough to break my workflow. Once selected, things speed up for me. The first time I change layouts takes a couple of seconds just to get the menu to appear, after that it's fine, no noticeable lag. Last year I had a PC for a while and realized just how different the experience was on the two platforms. Once it loaded on the PC, there was no discernable lag that I experienced. If I were buying a machine just to work with Logos, it would be a PC slam dunk for me....and I'm a twenty year mac person.

I'm OK with the tradeoff, L6 has some great new stuff so the fact that things are about the same as L5 with the new features was a move I was willing to make. That said, if I'm doing exegesis or need to look up a definition quickly, I turn to other tools. Quick is just not in the Logos Mac vocabulary I'm afraid.

Jeffrey S. Robison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668263#Comment_668263

Jeffrey, I'm trying to understand your concern. Are you experiencing any performance problems on your Mac, or are you just concerned that other forum users are reporting them?

Bradley,

I posted three places because I wanted it seen.

I have had issues since before the server debacle. It is beach balling. Apparently it writes wrong folder permissions on the Logos4 library folder which apparently causes crashes with personal books. When you ask about your crash issue, you are told to post your log files. When you turn on logging L6 crashes on startup so it only produces a console log file which points to the wrong folder permissions. I have done a complete removal of L6 and the clean install twice which is a 26.8 GIGABYTE download for me.

The parity promise has been made... and made... and made... $16000+ in resources and three paid upgrades later, as a Mac user I am told in the forums to get over it, it is not going to happen. I cannot even report on my crashes because it won't start if you want a log. I am supposedly using a stable release, Logos Bible Software 6.0a (6.0.1.0032). Faithlife broke something in L6 on this last update.

I have reported my issues in the forums and you are the first Faithlifer to respond. If you check my posts you will see that I have asked for help... in the forums... where I am told to go for support. And there has been none. I abandoned my large Accordance library for Logos years ago. I do not want to go back. I was pleased with L5 but excited about the new features of L6. I simply want the promise fulfilled. I want a stable product where the features I have paid for work as promised and advertised.

I have used Beta Logos releases on Developer releases of OS X and have never complained about crashes on that machine. I expect those. But when it does not function on my main machine... I have issues. I have never said, "Logos is slow," or "Logos is sluggish." I have a huge library and it takes a few seconds to search, no big deal. When an advertised feature crashes only on Mac. I start remembering the unkept promises after the initial announcement (a couple of years worth) and Logos' first foray into OS X (disaster) and I am worried that L6 is going that way. What can you say that will ease that concern?

I would be glad to provide logs for my crashes if you can tell me how to get them... see my previous posts with logs that I am able to generate within the last week. I use Logos EVERYDAY and I just want it to work (all of the features). I do not want to be hindered by crashing software. I want to follow my Bible study wherever it leads in the software. I am willing to do another clean install... if you can promise it will run. I am easy to get along with.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668305#Comment_668305

Jeffery, please for those of us who are trying to insure that every question receives an answer, multiple postings waste time. They don't increase visibility. If your post is not responded to after a few hours, bump it by responding to yourself - people often simply say "bump" to bring it back up to the top of the threads forums regulars are reviewing.

Jeffrey S. Robison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668315#Comment_668315

Jeffery, please for those of us who are trying to insure that every question receives an answer, multiple postings waste time. They don't increase visibility. If your post is not responded to after a few hours, bump it by responding to yourself - people often simply say "bump" to bring it back up to the top of the threads forums regulars are reviewing.

I apologize. I will refrain from doing so in the future. I suppose I was frustrated.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668318#Comment_668318

I suspect the combination of a new product, a severe server outage, and a long holiday weekend have left many of us frustrated.

Jeffrey S. Robison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668322#Comment_668322

I suspect the combination of a new product, a severe server outage, and a long holiday weekend have left many of us frustrated.

Thank you for your calmness and responses to all. I do not start a thread or make a post to start a Logos bashing thread. I just wanted a answer for greyed out personal books and crashes on builds or rebuilds of personal books. By the way, do you know anything about permissions on the Logos4 user library folder and subfolders on a Mac for L6? Apparently that is one of my issues.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668326#Comment_668326

No, unfortunately I'm PC ... but I'll keep my eyes open for recent posting by Mac people to see if I can direct them this direction.

Jeffrey S. Robison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668342#Comment_668342

Thanks.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668326#Comment_668326

By the way, do you know anything about permissions on the Logos4 user library folder and subfolders on a Mac for L6?

Saw in another thread that you had set permissions via Terminal. Did that fix your problem(s)?

Jeffrey S. Robison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668374#Comment_668374

Saw in another thread that you had set permissions via Terminal. Did that fix your problem(s)?

Thanks for asking.

The problem seemed to be that my user id was not added in the permissions of the Logging folder. When I added my id and set permissions to 755, it seemed to fix the logging crash and the PB build problem. It seems that PB build needed access to the Logging folder and system as owner and no user id caused the crash. Built my PB and no crash... happy day. I can now read my favorite devotional book again in L6.

Steve Walter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668322#Comment_668322

Still love Logos and what it means for me as a pastor, for what it's worth.

Jeffrey S. Robison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668383#Comment_668383

Still love Logos and what it means for me as a pastor, for what it's worth.

I am with you. I preach at least 4 times a week... I love Logos and I love my Mac.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668377#Comment_668377

The problem seemed to be that my user id was not added in the permissions of the Logging folder.

Pleased that your problem is now solved, but somewhat puzzled as to why it happened.

Michael McLane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668246#Comment_668246

I am not bashing here, I have to agree with these sentiments. As a Mac user in the Logos world, it is apparent that (at least feels like) it is a poor port from another platform (start with the menu bar). But, Like Charles, over the years I have just come to expect that Mac users are second class citizens. I have spent so much on resources and just tell myself that I am paying for the resources and the program is free. That is the company line, right? So, I have a slow, less than optimal, electronic reader.

I have, since my huge upgrade to L6, attempted to go back and re-learn and integrate many Logos features into my workflow. However, the slow responsiveness of the program, among other things, makes it very difficult. What do I mean by slow responsiveness? This is repeatedly asked by responders in the forums to these Mac user complaints and as Charles has said, the forums are replete with these issues over the last five years and they have been enumerated, again, here by Jeffrey, Lankford, and Charles.

At least the iPad version gets some love. [:P]

Not bashing here, just trying to validate the Mac user experience as expressed here. Why? Because it seems that the programmers and many in the forums come to the defense of Logos as if to tell the Mac user that it is all in our heads or that these are isolated experiences that are not across the whole platform or that there have to be some individual reason why a particular installation is running slow, crashing, etc.

What is the Mac experience, well... It is not needing to know a cryptic command that needs to be typed into a "command box" to get something done. I think that was one of the points of the origination of the Mac. Put it in a menu bar item for "normal" users. It is not needing to know how to syntactically use things like {Speaker, Label, Sermon, Person, <, >, } in search boxes. I feel like I have to learn a whole deeper level of computerese in order to do what the software should be making easier.

Again, these are just my feelings. The feelings of a step-child who gets the leftovers from the dinner table.

I still appreciate Logos and love it as a reader.

Kevin Olson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668386#Comment_668386

Still love Logos and what it means for me as a pastor, for what it's worth.

I am with you. I preach at least 4 times a week... I love Logos and I love my Mac.

FWIW....I am running Logos 6 on a MacBook Pro Late 2011 model on OSX 10.9.5 (Mavericks). I just updated my memory from 4Gb to 8Gb, and exchanged the 320Gb Sata 5400 with a 500Gb Sata 7200 (and I did it all for about $100). I feel like I have a new computer. Logos 6 is running great now. Previously, I would get the spinning beach ball often. I rarely get it now. There were features of Logos 6 that I never used because it would take an extremely long time to load. Now it all loads up nicely. Also, previously, Logos 6 would just quit unexpectantly. It stopped doing that, too. I am a student that uses Logos about 6 hours a day. This is not to say that it is as fast as I wish it would be. But it is so much better than it was.

Blessings,

Kevin

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668503#Comment_668503

I am not bashing here, I have to agree with these sentiments. As a Mac user in the Logos world, it is apparent that (at least feels like) it is a poor port from another platform (start with the menu bar). But, Like Charles, over the years I have just come to expect that Mac users are second class citizens. I have spent so much on resources and just tell myself that I am paying for the resources and the program is free. That is the company line, right? So, I have a slow, less than optimal, electronic reader.

I understand your feelings, but Logos will always feel somewhat like a port because in many ways it is. Logos hired a 3rd party to create the original Libronix (Logos mac 1) program and it felt very Mac like to me but had limited functionality. When 4 was developed I believe they honestly wanted a consistency of interface between the two platforms so you are going to end up with at least a slightly unmake feeling. The only thing I can fault Faithlife for is speed differences but these come from many factors... Ram amount, HDD vs SSD, to the level of free space on your hard drive. Accordance is as mac as you can get, yet this software still uses the boolean clauses like <AND> <XOR> <WITHIN ? Words> (Admittedly Accordance provides a menu for them so you don't have to memorize all the terms). Logos is not a perfect software and has lots of room for improvement, other than optimization for speed I do not personally feel I am getting scraps or leftovers, indeed being a different platform if anything thing I feel like a child with dietary issues. Logos being a parent (to further the family setting) is making sandwiches for everyone. The bread looks the same but if mac is gluten free (windows free in our case), is going to maybe slightly different. Logos I believe is honestly trying to offer us an identical experience.

I am not a big fan of the command box either, but there are steps to make it more mac like you can do yourself. An often used command by me is Update Now to download new books or to check for a program update. I never have to type it ever. Once you have the command appearing below the box you can drag it to beside the box and now you have an update button.

I am not trying to attack anyone or trivialize anyones issues. You can not purchase a dog and complain it won't have kittens. Logos is what it is, I want it to make improvements for all, but I accept Logos is never going pur or have kittens.

-Dan

EDIT PS: Here is a place to detail areas you want improvements and priority levels.

Jeffrey S. Robison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668496#Comment_668496

Pleased that your problem is now solved, but somewhat puzzled as to why it happened.

Me too. Both pleased and baffled. Hope to hear from a senior Mac dev on Monday.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668701#Comment_668701

Me too. Both pleased and baffled. Hope to hear from a senior Mac dev on Monday.

You already did (Martin Potter).

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668496#Comment_668496

Pleased that your problem is now solved, but somewhat puzzled as to why it happened.

The problem was caused by the invalid permissions, but we won't be able to answer why they were wrong on Jeffrey's machine. (AFAIK, we've never run into this permissions problem before, although we have seen problems with the ~/.mono folder and have a support article about that.)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/668496#Comment_668496

See the Screencast link below. Takes 10 seconds to open a Bible and almost 8 seconds to populate the right click menu.

http://www.screencast.com/t/BmCIDjQo

My specs:

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/671536#Comment_671536

Takes 10 seconds to open a Bible and almost 8 seconds to populate the right click menu.

You have a traditional hard drive, which will be slowish at best. How much free space does it have?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/671542#Comment_671542

It is a traditional drive with about 200GB out of 500GB free. That still seems very slow for an application to load a file. No other application (Word, Excel, etc) takes that long to load a file. In addition, populating the right-click menu shouldn't take that long. It is unusable at these speeds. I don't recall Logos 5 being that slow.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/671550#Comment_671550

Unfortunately Logos is a very drive intense program. I remember before i had an SSD finding aspect of 5 feeling virtually unusable. When my MBP died and apple replaced it and i upgraded to a SSD i was very happy to see how performance improved. (I had a chance to try it out on a 2011 MBA with a much slower processor and less ram than I had and even on it it seemed faster than my previous MBP).

-Dan

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/671550#Comment_671550

In addition, populating the right-click menu shouldn't take that long.

How is your speed after 6.0a SR-3... My population of right click is virtually instant now. Hope it;s better for you.

-Dan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/673495#Comment_673495

In addition, populating the right-click menu shouldn't take that long.
How is your speed after 6.0a SR-3... My population of right click is virtually instant now. Hope it;s better for you. -Dan

The speed after 6.0a SR-3, if anything, is actually slower. Not sure what the problem is...