Latest Edition of Books

I've been reading to study for a PhD entrance exam, and discovered something about Logos library that's really annoying -- many of the books I've been checking are not the latest edition. A specific instance is Craig's "A Reasonable Faith;" Logos has the 1994 edition, but the latest edition is some 14 years later, in 2008. Looking over the information I need to study, I find it's simply not in the 1994 edition. This type of thing really makes Logos close to useless for any sort of research and study -- it's nice to have all these books available and searchable, but if you're quoting or reading an edition that's 14 years old, that's not a good thing.

What I'd like to see is something in the resource or on the web site noting the edition available in Logos is not, in fact, the latest edition, so users will know to look elsewhere for the resource. In fact, I consider selling an edition that's 14 years old in electronic format, and passing it off as "current," as something less than fully ethical.

Logos needs to fix this.

Russ

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Comments

Kenneth Neighoff

This book is a Crossway/Moody title. Logos has not been able to sell Moody titles for a while. There is plenty on the forums about that. They still have some Moody titles on Vyrso.

Logos can only sell what they are given permission to sell, if this "outdated" edition as you called is all they have permission to sell, it is it unethical to do so. The buyer has some responsibility to know what edition they have to read for course requirements.

Russ White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680411#Comment_680411

And Logos has a responsibility -- to their customers -- to either mark or remove older editions. It is borderline unethical to pass off a 14 year old edition as current, IMHO. Again, a simple marking on the web site product page saying, "please note this is not the latest edition" would be a mark of honesty.

Russ

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680414#Comment_680414

Perhaps F.L. could as a courtesy make such a clarification at the request of users. Personally, I think the active tracking of later editions is far too onerous a burden.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680411#Comment_680411

The buyer has some responsibility to know what edition they have to read for course requirements.

I agree with Russ in principle. However, Logos does clearly state the year of publication on their site. neither do they make a claim that "this is the latest edition." the Final responsibility is with the buyer. It has been like this for thousands of years.

If there is a newer edition, Faithlife should work hard to acquire it.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680424#Comment_680424

I have been hoping for an update to "Dead Sea Scrolls Today" by James VanderKam:

http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/dsstoday

There is an updated version (Logos version is 1994, a revised version was 1997) that added more about some of the less discussed Qumran texts. It also added some info that was debated in scholarly circles about the Qumran sites, a new section on info in the Qumran texts about the Second Temple, and the bibliographies are expanded (I have this version in paperback). Also quotes from the Qumran have been updated to match more updated translations of the texts as some of that was flushed out in the late 90s.

Recently, a 2nd edition of this book came out in 2010 - as you may know the scholarship surrounding the Dead Sea Scrolls has been changing in a fast and furious pace. While the original book won the Biblical Archaeology Society's Best Popular Book on Biblical Archaeology in 1995, a 20 year old book on DSS is less than useful, and there is nothing that shares the outdated nature of this book on the Logos site. I would gladly pay for the second edition - frankly I don't see why Faithlife doesn't jump on this with its interest in attending to the needs of the scholarly and academic communities.

Tom Reynolds

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680435#Comment_680435

Logos seems to have a good relationship with Crossway so I don't see why they couldn't provide the 3rd ed.

In the meantime you might want to pick up this book for 99 cents:

https://vyrso.com/product/39765/come-let-us-reason-new-essays-in-christian-apologetics

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680424#Comment_680424

If there is a newer edition, Faithlife should work hard to acquire it.

That is a good idea but it would require upgrade costs. Or perhaps even a complete new purchase. You can't take you MW 10th edition Dictionary back to the store and ask them to upgrade it to the 11th edition. And in some smaller stores you may even find an old copy of the 10th that was never sold. Sometimes updates can be free, Accordance gave a free upgrade to the latest version of the Sacred Bridge when it was updated. However same company did due to Zondervan only allowed them to offer a very minimal upgrade savings to go from the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology to New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology & Exegesis. Which I suppose is lucky since many slightly upgraded resources have not been allowed by them to provide a free upgrade or even an upgrade path.

-Dan

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680487#Comment_680487

If there is a newer edition, Faithlife should work hard to acquire it.

That is a good idea but it would require upgrade costs. Or perhaps even a complete new purchase. You can't take you MW 10th edition Dictionary back to the store and ask them to upgrade it to the 11th edition. And in some smaller stores you may even find an old copy of the 10th that was never sold. Sometimes updates can be free, Accordance gave a free upgrade to the latest version of the Sacred Bridge when it was updated. However same company did due to Zondervan only allowed them to offer a very minimal upgrade savings to go from the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology to New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology & Exegesis. Which I suppose is lucky since many slightly upgraded resources have not been allowed by them to provide a free upgrade or even an upgrade path.

-Dan

-Dan

my point is they should have the latest edition period. Whether customers want to purchase an upgrade or not it should be up to customers. Selling an old edition is a money grab (probably for the publishers) and if Logos knowingly goes along with this practice, it is wrong!

Kent

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680525#Comment_680525

while I would also like to have the latest and greatest it is not reasonable to expect Logos to discard a resource simply because an updated version comes out. Amazon doesn't do it either...

Reasonable Faith 1994 Edition

Reasonable Faith 2008 Edition

Russ White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680525#Comment_680525

IMHO, Logos should strive to sell the latest edition, or sell nothing at all. This isn't a physical book store where you have "back copies," that must be sold off before you can move to the new edition, so I don't see any real reason to sell an older edition of anything as a new purchase. _If_ Logos is going to sell older editions, they should be labeled as such. Again, this isn't a physical book store, where such things are hard to find and label.

I just went through a portion of my library and discovered 25+ books that are available in other places in a later edition -- so this isn't just a single publisher, or anything like that. I've not gone through Logos.com to see if the newer editions are available, but I would have expected to be notified if one was.

This is what I've found so far:

Abraham: The Father of the Jews	Butler, John G.	1993	1998, 3rd Edition
The Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land	Negev, Avraham	1990	2001 (revised edition)
Creation through Wisdom: Theology and the New Biology	Deane-Drummond, Celia	2000	2003, New Edition
Ancient Egyptian Literature, Volume I: The Old and Middle Kingdoms	Lichtheim, Miriam	1975	2006, 2nd Edition (revised)
Ancient Egyptian Literature, Volume II: The New Kingdom	Lichtheim, Miriam	1976	2006, 2nd Edition (revised)
Ancient Egyptian Literature, Volume III: The Late Period	Lichtheim, Miriam	1980	2006, 2nd Edition (revised)
Collins Latin Dictionary and Grammar	HarperCollins	1997	2007, 2nd Edition
Beyond the Cosmos: What Recent Discoveries in Astrophysics Reveal About the Glory and Love of God	Ross, Hugh	1999	2010, 3rd Edition
A Basic Guide to Interpreting the Bible: Playing by the Rules	Stein, Robert H.	1994	2011, 2nd Edition
Church History in Plain Language	Shelley, Bruce L.	1995	2012, 4th Edition (revised)
Christian Apologetics	Geisler, Norman L.	1976	2013, 2nd Edition
Collins English Dictionary—8th Edition	HarperCollins	2006	2014, 12th Edition
Biblical Errancy: An Analysis of its Philosophical Roots	Geisler, Norman L.	1981	2014, 2nd Edition
A History of Israel	Bright, John	1981	2001, 4th Edition
Ethics for a Brave New World	Feinberg, John S.; Feinberg, Paul D.	1993	2010, 2nd Edition
Genesis for Today: The Relevance of the Creation/Evolution Debate to Today’s Society	McIntosh, Andy	2006	2010, 4th Edition
Interpreting the Parables	Blomberg, Craig L.	1990	2012, 2nd Edition
Interpreting the Gospel of John	Burge, Gary M.	2004	2013, 2nd Edition
Interpreting the Pauline Epistles	Schreiner, Thomas R.	1990	2011, 2nd Edition
Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology	Fruchtenbaum, Arnold G.	1989	1994 (revised edition)
Jesus and the Gospels: An Introduction and Survey	Blomberg, Craig L.	1997	2009, 2nd Edition
Jewish Literature between the Bible and the Mishnah	Nickelsburg, George W. E.	2005	2011, 2nd Edition
Jewish Literature between the Bible and the Mishnah (Images)	Nickelsburg, George W. E.	2005
Jewish Literature between the Bible and the Mishnah (Study Guide)	Nickelsburg, George W. E.	2005
Knowing Jesus Through the Old Testament	Wright, C.J.H.	2005	2014, 2nd Edition
New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis	VanGemeren, Willem A.	1997	2014, 2nd Edition
Reasonable Faith	Craig, William Lane	1994	2008, 3rd Edition

I will go through these in my library and mark them as old editions, just so I know they are there when I go to research such.

:-)

Russ

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680487#Comment_680487

If there is a newer edition, Faithlife should work hard to acquire it.

That is a good idea but it would require upgrade costs.

Faithlife does often release new editions of books, and charges for the new editions like any bookstore would. They usually pull the old ones off the site when new ones become available, though if users own the old ones they keep the licenses to the old ones. If you buy the new one, generally you want to hide the old one to avoid confusion, though occasionally there are reasons to keep both (e.g., the revised edition might have removed some content from the old one that you want to keep having access to even though it might be somewhat outdated).

For example, I have (and they still sell) the 6th edition of Carson's New Testament Commentary Survey, but now they have the 7th ed. in pre-pub as part of a larger collection. And I have the 2nd edition of Millard Erickson's Christian Theology, but they are now selling the 3rd ed.

And they used to sell the Expositor's Bible Commentary (published 1979-1981), which I have, but now they sell the revised edition.

It is borderline unethical to pass off a 14 year old edition as current, IMHO.

They don't anywhere say "this is the current edition" and I think it's more a matter of they haven't gotten around to updating their catalog, or they need to renegotiate a contract with a publisher than that they're being unethical. If you walked into a bricks and mortar bookstore and they happened to still have last year's edition of the CIA World Factbook on the shelf even though a new edition had just been published a couple of months ago, you might fault them for being a little behind the eight-ball, but you wouldn't say they were unethically trying to pass that book off as the latest and greatest. Bookstores (and Logos is no exception) have thousands of books, and it's hard to keep up with all the new editions of all of them.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680525#Comment_680525

Understood... but occasionally a new version is not available for Logos to get. That is probably a rare occasion, but I do know it has happened. In that case the older version may be better than none. This originally could have been a very recent purchase by him leaving him frustrated over it being an old edition. Getting a new edition in might sometimes be a tough sell. If say 80% of users possess resource A, getting enough to want to purchase the update in their pre-pub system, you may never get enough users interested to get it made (ACCS was updated and given freely to previous owners, but this update was minor). I hope Faithlife can change their policy to allow for editions to get updated to give us the latest version but from Logos history I do not see it happening. Logos claims their volumes are so much more valued because of their extensive tagging (something I would often disagree with). I am more willing to see Logos selling an old edition not so much as a money grab but hopefully as an oversight. With the tens of thousands of books in it's catalog it could be very easy be an oversight having an older edition. That said if you have the old edition in your Library do you remove it because a new edition is out, even if they are not able to offer the new version? I do not know the answer...

-Dan

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680537#Comment_680537

Getting a new edition in might sometimes be a tough sell. If say 80% of users possess resource A, getting enough to want to purchase the update in their pre-pub system, you may never get enough users interested to get it made

If they were able to offer a really good deal to people who already owned the older edition, say 50% off the Logos price for the new one (not off the MSRP, as that wouldn't be much lower than Logos offers it in many cases), then I'm sure more people would buy it. It might lose them money though, as I know their margins for digital books are pretty low.

That said if you have the old edition in your Library do you remove it because a new edition is out, even if they are not able to offer the new version?

No. I don't think that would be a good idea.

Kristin Dantzler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680531#Comment_680531

Re Amazon - If you go to the link for the 1994 edition, there is a statement above the fold letting you know there is a newer edition.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680537#Comment_680537

In that case the older version may be better than none.

Yes.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680535#Comment_680535

If you walked into a bricks and mortar bookstore and they happened to still have last year's edition of the CIA World Factbook on the shelf even though a new edition had just been published a couple of months ago, you might fault them for being a little behind the eight-ball, but you wouldn't say they were unethically trying to pass that book off as the latest and greatest.

Rosie, this is a straw man argument. We are not talking about a last year edition, but a 20 year old one (as of today). I am not sure when Faithlife acquired "Reasonable Faith." My question is why they did not license the 3rd edition (2008) if they negotiated after that date, or why they did not follow up if they licensed the second edition before 2008.

Again, I think it is the publisher that is not on the up and up.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680549#Comment_680549

Re Amazon - If you go to the link for the 1994 edition, there is a statement above the fold letting you know there is a newer edition.

I think that we need the same for Logos.com.

Tom Reynolds

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680552#Comment_680552

In that case the older version may be better than none.

Yes.

Don't forget that sometimes Logos can't sell the old one even when people want to buy it! e.g. NIV 84 and BDAG.

Russ White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680562#Comment_680562

Again, I think it is the publisher that is not on the up and up.

It could be -- but there's no reason Logos couldn't mark older editions as being older editions, even if they continue to sell them. I just want to be informed before pushing the button to buy. I don't see why or how this is so hard, honestly.

Russ

Russ White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680535#Comment_680535

Note that in all of your examples, you are working with books where both the old and new editions are available. Reasonable Faith isn't in that situation at all -- Logos is currently selling the first edition for more than the third edition is selling elsewhere -- and the third edition has been available for 6 years. If you search the Logos web site, you find no mention, anyplace of there being a more recent edition available, whether Logos will ever carry it, etc. So this isn't like Expositor's, or Erickson, or Carson.

They don't anywhere say "this is the current edition" and I think it's more a matter of they haven't gotten around to updating their catalog, or they need to renegotiate a contract with a publisher than that they're being unethical. If you walked into a bricks and mortar bookstore and they happened to still have last year's edition of the CIA World Factbook on the shelf even though a new edition had just been published a couple of months ago, you might fault them for being a little behind the eight-ball, but you wouldn't say they were unethically trying to pass that book off as the latest and greatest. Bookstores (and Logos is no exception) have thousands of books, and it's hard to keep up with all the new editions of all of them.

Several points --

1. If you went to Amazon and purchased a copy of MS Windows, downloaded it, and then discovered that it's a five year old version, and MS won't honor any upgrade deals -- would you feel even a bit of, "why didn't they tell me that?" after? Or would you say, "well, I should have asked and researched before buying," and just throw it in the trash -- along with the money you just spent? I'm certain you'd be on the phone to Amazon immediately to get a refund. And you'd be mad if there weren't one available.

2. The CIA factbook has a yearly edition, so I know what to look for there. A lot of these books don't. I could spend the time looking up each one, but how much of my time, as a customer, should Logos expect? Isn't Logos in business to provide a product that's _better_ than a brick and mortar store? Isn't customer service -- which includes making certain your customers are informed -- a part of the total package?

3. This isn't a brick and mortar store -- there is no physical inventory, just bits to download. You don't have to go looking through the stacks to find some hidden copy of an older edition you didn't know you have had on the shelf for the last 15 years. Further, Logos, being in the position they're in, should know about new editions when they ship, if not sooner. We're not talking about the average bookstore employee who just works the register.

The bottom line, for me, is Logos should mark older editions as such, and let the buyer make the decision. I appreciate your position (they're busy, it's hard to keep up with, they can't get the newer edition, the buyer is ultimately responsible), but I don't really buy it all -- it still seems a little "slick snake oil salesman'ish" to me.

Russ

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680575#Comment_680575

Note that in all of your examples, you are working with books where both the old and new editions are available.

The only reason I gave that list was to show that Logos/Faithlife is capable of bringing out new editions to replace older editions, lest anyone think this Reasonable Faith case was the norm. And, if anything else, to agree that they should get the updated version of it, since they've shown that they can do that with other books.

The bottom line, for me, is Logos should mark older editions as such, and let the buyer make the decision. I appreciate your position (they're busy, it's hard to keep up with, they can't get the newer edition, the buyer is ultimately responsible), but I don't really buy it all -- it still seems a little "slick snake oil salesman'ish" to me.

Fine, you win. I agree with you. I'd hate to be a slick snake oil salesman. I'm not going to defend Faithlife.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680575#Comment_680575

I can see Russ's point, given a HIGHER price. Last week I was comparing Logos to Amazon; Logos was lower on a specific volume. But it was the 'old one'. Amazon had the new one. I was happy to buy the old one. But until checking, I thought Logos had a good price (which it did on another series of volumes).

I just don't know how practical the exercise would be. I always check. Of course, as a result, I'm on the competitor site, so .....

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680575#Comment_680575

The bottom line, for me, is Logos should mark older editions as such, and let the buyer make the decision. I appreciate your position (they're busy, it's hard to keep up with, they can't get the newer edition, the buyer is ultimately responsible), but I don't really buy it all -- it still seems a little "slick snake oil salesman'ish" to me.

I don't disagree with you but on the other hand the majority of sources I use for books don't indicate old versions or do so inconsistently ... so I guess I'm like a fish swimming in snake oil and assuming its the norm. When Logos sells both an old and the new edition, I do expect them to be differentiated.

Doc B

Logos needs to fix this.

Russ

Agreed.

One thing I've learned about Faithlife Corp. is, they are good at letting you find out key information when it is too late to do anything about it.

This isn't as onerous a fix as it first might seem. I don't know what percentage of Faithlife resources are public domain, and thus not subject to new editions, but I'm pretty sure it is significant. Those can be ignored, and the focus put on following new editions they sell for updates.

The reason I don't suspect the publisher as much as some others in this thread is, having been a professor for 20 years, there's one thing I know about publishers...they aren't going to let anything get in the way of selling new editions, including big epub companies (except Amazon, which is too big to fight with).

Todd Beall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680534#Comment_680534

Hi Russ,

I agree with you that Logos should indicate that the item they are selling is not the most recent edition. It is not that onerous a task. Amazon does this with their books.

However, I disagree that Logos should only sell the newest edition. As long as they clearly mark older editions as such, some people won't mind getting older editions, since it may save them money. Also, not all "new" editions are better. I still remember when Thiessen's Lectures in Systematic Theology was "revised," the reviser changed the theology in numerous places! In that case, I'd want the old one!

In other words, each book is different. I do not simply "update" my collection if there are few changes; on the other hand, more substantial ones (such as the VanderKam Dead Sea Scroll volume mentioned earlier) I need to upgrade.

In any case, whenever there is a newer edition, Logos needs to include a note on the product page of the old edition (whether Logos happens to sell the new edition or not).

Thanks!

Todd

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680637#Comment_680637

Logos should indicate that the item they are selling is not the most recent edition. It is not that onerous a task. Amazon does this with their books.

Actually, to the best of my knowledge, Amazon only does this when they sell the updated version. In this case Logos often retires the old one from the store (often forced by the publisher to do so).

I think, we all agree that Logos should try to have the most current version of all the books in their offering - and they surely could make money from a "you own edition X of ABCDE, we are shipping edition Y soon and you can have it for a great old-version-owner's price!". The point may be that converting a new edition to Logos standard is probably as costly as doing it for a book for the first time, and so new editions face the same upstream than other suggestions would - plus some people might think that the new edition will sell less than the old, because a number of potential buyers already owns the old and won't buy the new unlless heavily discounted (I'm a case in point as a happy owner of Erickson's "Christian Theology" 2nd edition who didn't buy the 3rd - but then I'm not in seminary on either side of the catheter)

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680660#Comment_680660

There is also the reference/tag/link problem between versions, quite complex

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680660#Comment_680660

but then I'm not in seminary on either side of the catheter

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680660#Comment_680660

Actually, to the best of my knowledge, Amazon only does this when they sell the updated version.

I'm not sure that Amazon is entirely consistent on this. Revelation: Four Views is an example. Amazon sells both the first and second editions. I could not find any warning on the first edition's web page. The closest that I see is in the "Customers Also Bought" section. I see the second edition there. Maybe I am just missing the warning though.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680673#Comment_680673

but then I'm not in seminary on either side of the catheter

sorry, my bad. I probably meant "lectern" (German: Katheder [ seemingly not: Katheter as I just found out [:$] ] - you may think of the Latin phrase "ex cathedra" ) but should have written "teacher's desk" or "professor's desk" in the firstplace.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680675#Comment_680675

Actually, to the best of my knowledge, Amazon only does this when they sell the updated version.

I'm not sure that Amazon is entirely consistent on this. Revelation: Four Views is an example. Amazon sells both the first and second editions. I could not find any warning on the first edition's web page. The closest that I see is in the "Customers Also Bought" section. I see the second edition there. Maybe I am just missing the warning though.

In this case it's also in the author's bio on Amazon... and Logos should give us an update on https://www.logos.com/product/2271/revelation-four-views (on my wishlist, now de-posed from "nearly bought" status...)

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680637#Comment_680637

In any case, whenever there is a newer edition, Logos needs to include a note on the product page of the old edition (whether Logos happens to sell the new edition or not).

I seem to recall they have done this once in a blue moon, with a link to the newer edition, though I can't recall what book I've seen that on, and maybe my memory is just playing tricks with me. It doesn't seem to be too much to ask that they should do this consistently, at least when they do sell the new edition. Doing it when they don't sell the new edition, however, seems to be an admission of failure and directing people to buy the book elsewhere, and I hardly expect they would consider that to make good business sense. They should rather focus on getting the new editions in a more timely fashion, I would think, so that they don't need to include such notes.

but then I'm not in seminary on either side of the catheter

sorry, my bad. I probably meant "lectern" (German: Katheder [ seemingly not: Katheter as I just found out ] - you may think of the Latin phrase "ex cathedra" ) but should have written "teacher's desk" or "professor's desk" in the firstplace.

[:)]

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680734#Comment_680734

Doing it when they don't sell the new edition, however, seems to be an admission of failure and directing people to buy the book elsewhere, and I hardly expect they would consider that to make good business sense.

Rosie,

please do not mistake the short-term profit as a good business sense versus developing trust and excellent customer service. Consider Amazon, because they are actively pro-consumer (in my view) by providing reviews, marking editions and pointing me to the newer version when available - they have become my number 1 stop for everything, except Christian books. I don't always end up purchasing from Amazon, but I always start there.

If someone really needs edition 3 and Logos only has edition 2, they will find out and exercise their 30 day return privilege. Logos will lose a sale anyway. If customers find out after 30 days they will feel as if Logos could have warned them, but did not and some (probably not all) could feel tricked into buying an old version.

That is why I think it is in Logos' best interest to: 1) always strive to acquire the newest version available (even years after they secured licensing for a 1 edition - keep checking if newer editions are available), 2) if they are only able to sell an older edition - clearly mark it as such, and possibly even link to the newest e-edition on the Publisher (or competitor, if Faithlife is unable to acquire a license for a long time) site - remember a famous Nordstrom customer service example when a clerk went and purchased an item from another retailer to serve his customer? 3) if Logos is able to sell multiple editions of the same resource, clearly mark them and link them to one another, so the customer can chose whether they want the latest edition or a possibly cheaper older edition.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680781#Comment_680781

Doing it when they don't sell the new edition, however, seems to be an admission of failure and directing people to buy the book elsewhere, and I hardly expect they would consider that to make good business sense.

Rosie,

please do not mistake the short-term profit as a good business sense versus developing trust and excellent customer service. Consider Amazon, because they are actively pro-consumer (in my view) by providing reviews, marking editions and pointing me to the newer version when available - they have become my number 1 stop for everything, except Christian books. I don't always end up purchasing from Amazon, but I always start there.

If someone really needs edition 3 and Logos only has edition 2, they will find out and exercise their 30 day return privilege. Logos will lose a sale anyway. If customers find out after 30 days they will feel as if Logos could have warned them, but did not and some (probably not all) could feel tricked into buying an old version.

That is why I think it is in Logos' best interest to: 1) always strive to acquire the newest version available (even years after they secured licensing for a 1 edition - keep checking if newer editions are available), 2) if they are only able to sell an older edition - clearly mark it as such, and possibly even link to the newest e-edition on the Publisher (or competitor, if Faithlife is unable to acquire a license for a long time) site - remember a famous Nordstrom customer service example when a clerk went and purchased an item from another retailer to serve his customer? 3) if Logos is able to sell multiple editions of the same resource, clearly mark them and link them to one another, so the customer can chose whether they want the latest edition or a possibly cheaper older edition.

I agree with all of your points. I'm just trying to put myself in Logos/Faithlife's mind and figure out why they might be doing it the way they do. I confess I don't really understand it, but most things that baffle us do make logical sense to the other one we can't agree with. I'm someone who always likes to try to see things from someone else's point of view. It's very mind-expanding and helps us to grow in charity towards others (though it might not help us get what we want! [:)]).

Thanks for the discussion. I'm not really interested in carrying on though, since my purpose was never to defend Logos/Faithlife from the beginning, which nobody seems to have picked up on. So I wasted my time. Oh well.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680798#Comment_680798

It seems to me if a customer is a seminary student they are now adults who should accept personal responsibility for what edition they are purchasing.

I can hear the cries now, "I was ignorant! Why should I be responsible?"

Hapax Legomena

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680798#Comment_680798

There is even a worse case: for public domain works in community pricing, Logos doesn't always offer the latest edition. For example, Logos offers the 1845 edition of J.H. Newman's Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. There is an updated 1878 edition in the public domain which Logos doesn't offer. They apparently missed the revised edition when they put the collection together.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680800#Comment_680800

It seems to me if a customer is a seminary student they are now adults who should accept personal responsibility for what edition they are purchasing.

A person has to go to Amazon.com to search and see if there is a newer edition? Yes, it's possible to do, and we're all adults so we know how to do it and should if we're responsible students. But I agree with the OP that we shouldn't have to go to another bookselling website to find this out. That other website is likely to get our business if we do. Whereas if we see that Logos is aware of it and might come out with the new edition, we might wait. I know that Amazon.com has become the de facto authority on what is the current edition of everything, but there's no reason Faithlife couldn't be as much of an authority on that for theological works. We like to think they are the authority on theological works, but in this one small area, they fall a bit short.

See, toughski, I'm able to see things (and defend them) from anybody's perspective, even yours and Russ's, even though it appeared at first that I was disagreeing with you. And I'm doing this at great risk of being critiqued back again by ST or others on the other side of the issue. But that's a risk one takes. I guess I wasn't finished with this thread after all... [;)]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680810#Comment_680810

And I'm doing this at great risk of being critiqued back again by ST or others on the other side of the issue.

Maybe it is a generational thing. Thirty-seven years ago my New Testament professor owned the bookstore that supplied the textbooks to students. He frequently would require older editions. If we purchased the current edition from another bookstore our grade would be penalized. It was up to the student to purchase the correct required edition. We did not have the luxury of referring to Amazon.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680817#Comment_680817

And I'm doing this at great risk of being critiqued back again by ST or others on the other side of the issue.

Maybe it is a generational thing. Thirty-seven years ago my New Testament professor owned the bookstore that supplied the textbooks to students. He frequently would require older editions. If we purchased the current edition from another bookstore our grade would be penalized. It was up to the student to purchase the correct required edition. We did not have the luxury of referring to Amazon.

Yes, but you had the luxury of a professor who told you a specific edition to look for. Any intelligent person can compare what's on the syllabus with what is offered on a bookstore's website (or in a physical bookstore back in the day when that's all we had available), as long as the bookstore provides enough information (publication date) to make that comparison. Logos.com does provide the publication date, so we can know if it's an old edition. If it seems really old (20 years, for example) it behooves us to check whether there is a more recent one if we want the most recent one or if our professor's syllabus requires a more recent one.

I've seen syllabi from professors who required an older edition too. It's because that was the edition they had read and were familiar with, and they wanted to require specific page numbers for us to read which would only work if we bought the same edition they had. A professor who has taught a course for years using the same required textbook might not want to buy a newer edition when it comes out. But some diligent professors will at least get the newer edition of the book out of the library and look up the equivalent page numbers for the students and put those in brackets after the old edition page numbers in the syllabus. That way students are at liberty to buy whichever edition they can get their hands on. Sometimes the older editions are harder to come by and it's nice to be able to buy the latest version, which might be more accurate in some ways (typos fixed, at least, if not other editorial improvements).

However when there have been lots of changes and reorganization between an older edition and a newer one, then it can be hard to map page numbers in the old edition onto newer edition page numbers. In that case, either the professor requires the older edition, or he/she must purchase the newer edition and rework the syllabus and course content based on it.

Russ White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680817#Comment_680817

So, to return to the beginning -- IMHO:

- Logos should sell the latest edition, if possible.

- I'm fine if they continue selling older editions, as well.

- However, if you are looking at the product page for a book or other resource, and there is another (later) edition available, this should be noted.

This just makes sense to me... We don't need to "toughen up," we need information. I understand this might cut into sales, but it's also the right thing to do.

Russ

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680850#Comment_680850

So, to return to the beginning -- IMHO:

- Logos should sell the latest edition, if possible.

- I'm fine if they continue selling older editions, as well.

- However, if you are looking at the product page for a book or other resource, and there is another (later) edition available, this should be noted.

This just makes sense to me... We don't need to "toughen up," we need information. I understand this might cut into sales, but it's also the right thing to do.

Russ

totally agree [Y]

Kent

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680850#Comment_680850

Logos should sell the latest edition, if possible.

I have no doubt Logos would agree with this as well. They want to sell books.

Kent

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680817#Comment_680817

And I'm doing this at great risk of being critiqued back again by ST or others on the other side of the issue.

Maybe it is a generational thing. Thirty-seven years ago my New Testament professor owned the bookstore that supplied the textbooks to students. He frequently would require older editions. If we purchased the current edition from another bookstore our grade would be penalized. It was up to the student to purchase the correct required edition. We did not have the luxury of referring to Amazon.

Sounds like this was more of an Ethical issue.

I took a class shortly after the 3rd edition of Grasping God's Word was released (Not in Logos) and the Professor actually made two separate reading assignments for two syllabi. One for the 3rd edition and one for the 2nd edition

I do however find it interesting (somewhat disappointing) that the 2nd edition is included in one Zondervan bundle and the 3rd is included in another. So caveat emptor.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680901#Comment_680901

I took a class shortly after the 3rd edition of Grasping God's Word was released (Not in Logos) and the Professor actually made two separate reading assignments for two syllabi. One for the 3rd edition and one for the 2nd edition

I do however find it interesting (somewhat disappointing) that the 2nd edition is included in one Zondervan bundle and the 3rd is included in another. So caveat emptor.

That is bizarre, and there's no indication on the product description page for the 2nd edition that a 3rd edition is available. This is exactly the sort of thing Russ's original post was rightfully calling out as unacceptable.

We've had no input from Faithlife yet on this thread. (Granted, it's New Year's Eve, and maybe they had the day off today, or most of them were on an extended Christmas vacation.) With three pages of posts now, and a good deal of disgruntlement on the part of at least a couple of posters, I think it's time for an employee to weigh in. I'm going to bring this thread to someone's attention there.

LimJK

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680850#Comment_680850

- However, if you are looking at the product page for a book or other resource, and there is another (later) edition available, this should be noted.

Russ,

Just an example to support your point. Recently I was looking for "The Development and Delivery of Expository Messages" by Haddon W. Robinson.

https://www.logos.com/products/search?q=%22The+Development+and+Delivery+of+Expository+Messages%22

The first hit is 2nd Edition, it is the only version that you can purchase as a single unbundled purchase
The 2nd hit is the 3rd Edition, but, comes as a bundle with another volume.
The 3rd and 4th hits are bigger bundled with only the 2nd Edition

When I got started, I was only interested to purchase a Single Book ... it will be nice if in Logos Product Page for the first hit ALERTS us of the fact there is a 3rd Edition.

Rosie Perera

I just stumbled across a page where they do direct people to a newer edition of a resource, and in fact don't even let them buy the old discontinued edition (though the product description page is still up). In this case, it's for a journal bundle. But they could easily do this for new editions of books too, and I think they should:

Todd Beall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/680850#Comment_680850

Agree.

Todd Beall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/682044#Comment_682044

Oops, my "agree" was to Russ's post of 12/31/14 2:39 pm!

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/682045#Comment_682045

Oops, my "agree" was to Russ's post of 12/31/14 2:39 pm!

No worries. That's clear from clicking the "Replied" link next do your name on that post of yours. It links back to the post you were replying to. Not many people know about that, so I try to spread the knowledge around whenever I get a chance.

Oh, and you can also get the direct link to a particular post in a thread (as opposed to the top of the thread) by clicking on the little page icon next to the poster's name. That puts the proper URL with the # bookmark at the end of it in your browser's address bar and you can copy it from there.

End of your "neat features about the forum that I bet you never knew" session for the day. [:)] (It's good to find something neat about the forum software because there are so many bugs and limitations that we gripe about much of the time.)

Todd Beall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/682048#Comment_682048

Thanks, Rosie! I wasn't sure because of the way I saw the message displayed.

Thanks again!

Todd