NLT is revised again, bt still need older version in Logos which we use in church on Sundays

I noticed that the NLT book icon has changed colour, which made me think that it was a new revision. On investigation, I see that there is a new version (2013), and in my Logos library the NLT is last updated on 28 Jan 2015. It's great to get the newest revision in Logos.

However, I still need the older 2007 version because we use that in church on Sundays. In the past, we changed pew Bibles from the 1996 edition to the 2007 edition (skipping the 2004 edition). But, I'm reluctant to change them all out again for the latest edition (2013) just so that they can keep up with the quoted texts and passages on the projector screen.

Instead, I'd like to be able to quote extracts from the 2007 edition using Logos. Is it possible to regain that edition, since it isn't visible in my library now?

If it's not easily accessible at present, can it please be made accessible as a separate product, just like there is a separate 1984 edition of NIV and the 2011 edition? It was already produced in Logos format, so should not be too difficult to make available as a separate product.

I'd even buy it again as a separate product (although I would have preferred to have had the option as to whether to keep the existing one or have an automatic update to the latest edition).

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Rosie Perera

FYI, I found where someone had posted a PDF with the revisions from the 2007 edition to the 2013. Mostly pretty minor, not the sort of thing that would throw people off if it were different from the pew Bible to the screen, and many wouldn't even be noticeable at all anyway (they were just changes in the footnotes, and I presume you don't project the footnotes up onto the screen). You could use this PDF to find the old wording of verses you're planning to use on the projection if Logos decides not to make the 2007 version available as a separate resource.

Graham Criddle

If it's not easily accessible at present, can it please be made accessible as a separate product, just like there is a separate 1984 edition of NIV and the 2011 edition?

I don't know what the position is with the NLT but Faithlife are no longer allowed to sell the '84 NIV due to licensing restrictions (the '84 version available is an anglicised one). It is probable that the same conditions would apply for the NLT but someone from Faithlife would need to comment on that.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/699794#Comment_699794

I don't know what the position is with the NLT but Faithlife are no longer allowed to sell the '84 NIV due to licensing restrictions

This is true, but NIV 2011 was released as a separate product rather than updating the '84 version, and anyone who owned the '84 version at the time still owns it. I don't remember whether people were automatically upgraded to the 2011 who owned the '84. I got it automatically, but I don't know whether that's because it was included in one of the later base packages I upgraded to or not. I don't have any record of buying it specifically, though.

I'm not sure why Faithlife decided to just upgrade the resource for NLT instead of issuing a new resource for the 2013 edition. It does seem odd, but maybe the differences were deemed minor enough (I know that NIV '84 to NIV 2011 was quite substantial).

John Duffy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/699793#Comment_699793

FYI, I found where someone had posted a PDF with the revisions from the 2007 edition to the 2013. Mostly pretty minor, not the sort of thing that would throw people off if it were different from the pew Bible to the screen, and many wouldn't even be noticeable at all anyway (they were just changes in the footnotes, and I presume you don't project the footnotes up onto the screen). You could use this PDF to find the old wording of verses you're planning to use on the projection if Logos decides not to make the 2007 version available as a separate resource.

Thanks Rosie. That helps to see that there are not too many changes, with a good proportion of them being to the footnotes (which you are correct about in that I don't show footnotes on the screen). That helps greatly. In the absence of a different resource, I could even add a note file in the NLT Logos resource with the changes (if I find time somehow).

Thank again.

John Duffy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/699794#Comment_699794

If it's not easily accessible at present, can it please be made accessible as a separate product, just like there is a separate 1984 edition of NIV and the 2011 edition?

I don't know what the position is with the NLT but Faithlife are no longer allowed to sell the '84 NIV due to licensing restrictions (the '84 version available is an anglicised one). It is probable that the same conditions would apply for the NLT but someone from Faithlife would need to comment on that.

Hi Graham. I understand. However, if the same approach were used as with the NIV, there would be a separate NLT (2013) product, with existing users either retaining just the older product and possibly having a free upgrade to the new product, even if the older one were no longer allowed to be sold due to licensing restrictions, like the NIV-84. Normally, from my experience, when a resource is released as a new edition (with a new cover icon colour to distinguish it from previous editions), it is listed as a separate and new resource.

It's not a big issue, overall, but it'd be good to have the older version (2007) still available for those who still use it as their primary pew Bible in church, like myself as we use it in our fellowship.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/699802#Comment_699802

Hi John

Hi Graham. I understand. However, if the same approach were used as with the NIV, there would be a separate NLT (2013) product, with existing users either retaining just the older product and possibly having a free upgrade to the new product, even if the older one were no longer allowed to be sold due to licensing restrictions, like the NIV-84. Normally, from my experience, when a resource is released as a new edition (with a new cover icon colour to distinguish it from previous editions), it is listed as a separate and new resource.

Totally fair.

But it looks as though the ESV was updated "quietly" - https://community.logos.com/forums/p/41817/311551.aspx#311551 - which resulted in a similar request to bring back the 2007 version as a separate resource - https://community.logos.com/forums/t/70271.aspx

I wonder whether the NIV was the exception for some reason?

Graham

John Duffy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/699804#Comment_699804

But it looks as though the ESV was updated "quietly" - https://community.logos.com/forums/p/41817/311551.aspx#311551 - which resulted in a similar request to bring back the 2007 version as a separate resource - https://community.logos.com/forums/t/70271.aspx

Thanks for those links, Graham.

I wonder whether the NIV was the exception for some reason?

Whether it was or not, I believe that it is the proper way to handle new editions, even if the actual number of revisions is small. This is especially important when considering that the Bible is the most important resource in Bible software programs, and in churches. At the very least, we should be alerted to revisions of our chosen translation of our most important resource, the Bible--not that I expect that I would object with anything, but you never know. (If the NIV-84 had been updated to the TNIV automatically, with the old edition no longer being available as a separate resource in Logos, there would have been an uproar in some circles.)

If there is a preface or note to readers explaining the differences between the new edition and the previous one(s), as is the case at the start of our hard copy of the 2007 NLT, which clearly distinguishes it from other editions, I think that it is only right and proper that purchased electronic versions should be separate editions.

Also. when we purchase a resource like the NLT (or ESV for that matter), we don't purchase a continually updating and variable text, but the text as sold at the time of purchase (unless we are told explicitly that it will automatically update with future editions being released).

I'm not in favour of the changes being (i) automatic updates instead of released as a separate resource, or (ii) introduced quietly without explanation or notification.

Maybe Logos don't have control over this, if the update process is determined by the NLT pubishers, but either way I'd be happier if it had been done differently.

However, if viewing the NLT online (e.g. biblia.com etc), there should be no objection to the latest edition being displayed by default, without explanation.

JT (alabama24)

For clarification: sometimes publishers make updates to a translation without (in their minds) creating a new "version." When new bibles are printed, the changes are implemented across the board. The NIV84 and NIV11 were considered district translations by the publisher... Which isn't the case with the ESV or NLT changes (from what I understand). Since our user license gives us access to the ESV & NLT, we receive updates to them as we would if typos were created. I can appreciate your Dilemma. I don't think anything can be done about it but it would be good to hear from Bob.

John Duffy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/699810#Comment_699810

For clarification: sometimes publishers make updates to a translation without (in their minds) creating a new "version." When new bibles are printed, the changes are implemented across the board. The NIV84 and NIV11 were considered district translations by the publisher... Which isn't the case with the ESV or NLT changes (from what I understand). Since our user license gives us access to the ESV & NLT, we receive updates to them as we would if typos were created. I can appreciate your Dilemma. I don't think anything can be done about it but it would be good to hear from Bob.

Yes, I understand. However, updates for typos etc. is no problem. But although the editions of the NLT are not different translations to the same extent as the NIV 1984 to 2011 were, they are still sold in harrd copy as different editions, with introductory notes in each new edition as to the changes. I would therefore not consider the changes to be suitably rolled out as an automatic update to the electronic product, unless notified in advance that that would be the case, and with an opt-out if someone wanted to keep to a particular version which they had bought. I expect that there will be reasonable arguments supporting the way it has been updated (e.g. having latest product without making a new purchase), but I just am of a different opinion. I also agree with you that I don't think that anything will happen, as the ESV is more popular and nothing happened as a result of that a few years ago. Ah well...

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/699810#Comment_699810

Since our user license gives us access to the ESV & NLT, we receive updates to them as we would if typos were created.

I love it when they create typos in new updates, and we get them for free! [:P]

John Duffy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/699938#Comment_699938

[:D]

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/699815#Comment_699815

But although the editions of the NLT are not different translations to the same extent as the NIV 1984 to 2011 were, they are still sold in harrd copy as different editions, with introductory notes in each new edition as to the changes.

Are you sure? If so, I think it strengthens your argument. Maybe you should send Bob an email.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/699968#Comment_699968

But although the editions of the NLT are not different translations to the same extent as the NIV 1984 to 2011 were, they are still sold in harrd copy as different editions, with introductory notes in each new edition as to the changes.

I wonder if the 2007 edition is really still sold (except on the used book market)? That was the case for some time with the NIV '84 because of concerns some people had with the gender neutral language changes that were made in the TNIV. I believe that in the 2011 edition, the publisher rolled back some of the changes that were most troublesome to people, while making other editorial/translation improvements. So once the 2011 edition was out, they pulled the '84 edition. I don't think the NLT has the contentious history that the NIV translation does, so I would be surprised if they had any reason to keep the 2007 edition available for sale (other than allowing bookstores to use up existing copies of it, perhaps selling them at a discount).

David Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/699992#Comment_699992

I'm reading this thread and concerned about a Bible translation (NLT?) being officially revised and updated on my computer without my knowledge or consent. That to my mind is an issue of trust.

Has someone actually checked the latest Logos NLT update and verified that it is in fact the updated translation? Or is that a matter of speculation so far?

I would like it if Bob Pritchett would weigh in on this.

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/699994#Comment_699994

I think we can be pretty certain that the NLT has been updated.

See my screenshots from the information panel:

Every blessing

Alan

John Duffy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/699992#Comment_699992

I wonder if the 2007 edition is really still sold (except on the used book market)? That was the case for some time with the NIV '84 because of concerns some people had with the gender neutral language changes that were made in the TNIV. I believe that in the 2011 edition, the publisher rolled back some of the changes that were most troublesome to people, while making other editorial/translation improvements. So once the 2011 edition was out, they pulled the '84 edition. I don't think the NLT has the contentious history that the NIV translation does, so I would be surprised if they had any reason to keep the 2007 edition available for sale (other than allowing bookstores to use up existing copies of it, perhaps selling them at a discount).

No contentious issues with the NLT. At least one older publication (2004) is still listed as available from the publisher from an online store. This is helpful if there are a large number of pew Bibles in a church and only a few need to be replaced.

Here is a screenshot of the 'Note for Readers' in a 2013 version available online:

It becomes clear now, that the first edition was 1996, and the second edition was 2004, and the changes in 2007 and 2013 are essentially 'minor revisions' of the second edition. They arguably don't warrant being listed as separate resources in Logos. On the positive side, we get the updates for free. On the downside, overnight our electronic resources are now out of sync with the hard copy Bibles we may use in church.

I'd prefer to have the different publications available separately, though, for the sync issue alone. I'd even pay again for them.

I'm reading this thread and concerned about a Bible translation (NLT?) being officially revised and updated on my computer without my knowledge or consent. That to my mind is an issue of trust.

For me it's not a matter of trust, but of good communication policy.

Has someone actually checked the latest Logos NLT update and verified that it is in fact the updated translation? Or is that a matter of speculation so far?

Yes, a quick check on some verses shows that the NLT in my Logos library is indeed the 2013 publication, when compared with the resource which Rosie linked to above.

But I'd just like to say that I'm really pleased with the NLT, as it is a really, really, excellent translation (very occasionally I find that it is not ideal on difficult to interpret/translate passages where a more literal approach is safer). I'm pleased to have the latest work of the NLT editors in Logos format, despite preferring to have the older publication separately in Logos too.