Surface 3

Yesterday Microsoft announced the Surface 3, set to come out next month. I'm considering the the 128gb model with 4gb RAM.

Any thoughts on how well/poorly Logos 6 would run on this device & processor?

My current laptop is a Core i7-4510 with 8gb RAM & an SSD, and Logos is pretty snappy.

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Comments

Alan Charles Gielczyk

Going from an i7 to an Atom processor and halving your RAM will not be a pleasant experience for you.

Steven Hull

I think it depends on what your purpose for the device. If you're planning on it replacing the laptop I think it could be a bit frustrating, but as an addition, it seems to be an interesting option. I have been concidering a tablet to run full logos but have not committed to anything yet. The digitizer and 10.8" screen seems like it could be a nice form factor to run full logos. I do recall reading in a previous thread that a bay trail atom processor with 2gb or ram was considered "serviceable." It will be interesting to see benchmarks on the new atom processor.

Mark Nolette

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/712509#Comment_712509

I have an i5 laptop with an SSD and 8 GB of RAM, and a Lenovo Thinkpad 8 that has an Atom processor but 4 GB of RAM. No question - my laptop runs Logos 6 much faster. However, the Lenovo, with that 4 GB, isn't bad. For me, I like being able to have my whole Logos library on a more portable device with full Logos 6 functionality when needed, offline as well as online. Having said that, my guess is that the Surface 3 (I'm thinking of the 4 GB RAM version) should do a little better than my Lenovo, as it has the latest Atom processor and probably some other good Surface hardware in it. No, it will never compete with your laptop, but it would work if you are not in a rush. Still, I'd save the more intense exegetical work for your laptop.

Overall, for someone who finds the Surface Pro a bit steep, who likes the size and form factor, and who doesn't plan on running apps/programs that require a lot of resources, the Surface 3 could be a good solution. If they actually get the 10 hour battery life they claim, even better.

LaRosa Johnson

I'm actually looking at the Surface 3 as a replacement to my current laptop. These days Logos is really the only high end app I use, and I'm used to it running slow-ish (I only recently got an SSD and know how life was before that & still have a spinning drive on my work machine). In my current use case, it makes more sense to have a large tablet/small laptop and my cell phone than adding a third device (i.e. the surface in addition to or an Android/Apple tablet)

Hopefully some sites will be able to get their hands on them and run benchmarks before they start shipping.

Michael

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/712542#Comment_712542

I'm actually looking at the Surface 3 as a replacement to my current laptop. These days Logos is really the only high end app I use, and I'm used to it running slow-ish (I only recently got an SSD and know how life was before that & still have a spinning drive on my work machine). In my current use case, it makes more sense to have a large tablet/small laptop and my cell phone than adding a third device (i.e. the surface in addition to or an Android/Apple tablet)

Hopefully some sites will be able to get their hands on them and run benchmarks before they start shipping.

I would take a serious look at the Surface Pro 3 as well. There's a few Microsoft locations in my area so I'm going to go take a look at the new Surface 3 in person. I wish I could install Logos on there to compare it with my Surface Pro 3. One major difference besides the CPU and screen size is the Surface 3 uses an eMMC memory module instead of an SSD. eMMC memory tops out at 150Mb/s read speed while the SSD in the Surface Pro 3 tops out at close to 500Mb/s. This may have a pretty noticeable impact on Logos.

For reference, I can get Logos up and running in 12-15 seconds on the Surface Pro 3 if there's no updates. I don't have a huge library, but it's a reasonable size with 2,000 or so resources and my installation is about 20gb in size. If there's an update, it may take up to 35 seconds to start.

I've definitely replaced my laptops with the Surface Pro 3. Using the pen to perform highlights in Logos is something I prefer over using my mouse. This is something you'd get with the Surface 3 as well.

Overall, I think both Surface devices are great for Logos use. Price, screen size, portability, and speed are all factors worth considering. One thing I was surprised by is the Type Cover keys are actually the same size on the Surface 3. So from a typing experience there's no compromise compared to the Surface Pro 3 when looking at the Type Covers.

Mark Nolette

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/712545#Comment_712545

I was wondering if the Surface 3 used SSD like the Surface Pro, because the Microsoft site (yesterday) didn't say "SSD". As a further point of reference, my Lenovo ThinkPad 8 uses eMMC. It takes about 25 seconds for me to get Logos up and running on it if there are no updates. The Surface 3 should do no worse; it may do a little better. The Surface 3 looks like a viable option for at least some people. Smart move on Microsoft's part.

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/712591#Comment_712591

LaRosa, I think you will find it adequate. I have an HP Stream 13 and it runs okay on that device, but does take a long time to load and update (restart). However, once I get it loaded, it runs adequately. I have a Surface Pro 3 with the i5 processor and it runs very well on it.

Mark Ziebold

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/712815#Comment_712815

I agree. It runs excellent on the Surface 3. What is completely surprising to me is that the indexing time on my surface is just a fraction of the time that my laptop takes to index the same works. I have basically replaced my laptop with the surface 3 and Logos runs great on it.

J. T. Shortt

I am currently running the Surface Pro 2 with i5 256 Gig SSD and 8 Gig Men. It runs extremely well. The only struggle is the loss of Display space. My Daughter just bought the Surface Pro 3 and the increase of display size and reduction in weight is awesome.

With that I would recommend against the Surface 3 for you. You drop processor, memory and display is the same size as the Surface Pro 2.

But with the Surface Pro 4 coming out in the next 3 months, you could wait and catch the Surface Pro 3 at a reduced price and get the best of both worlds with not putting out $$$$.

Hope you find this useful.

Stay Strong

Deacon Steve

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/712834#Comment_712834

It runs excellent on the Surface 3.

I think you intended to say Surface Pro 3. The Surface 3 has yet to be release.

Mark Ziebold

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/713038#Comment_713038

Yes, you are correct, my mistake. I am running the surface Pro 3 with no regrets and much faster indexing than any other computer I have ever used Logos on.

Ragnheðin Ryggstein

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/712815#Comment_712815

I have a Surface Pro 3 with the i5 processor

Hi Kevin, is your Surface Pro 3 i5 with 4 GB or 8 GB RAM?

I am a little bit in a dilemma, I just don't know what to buy, I need Logos to be portable (like a surface devise, or so) with all the functions

Thanks

Ragnheðin

Ragnheðin Ryggstein

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/716062#Comment_716062

And one more question

What about the Surface pro i3?

Regards

Ragnheðin

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/716064#Comment_716064

I have one on order (should be in this week). I'll let you know what my experience is like with it.

I live in Canada so the pricing is different for me, but the I3 surface pro (with keyboard) cost me $10 more than the 4gb Surface 3 would have cost. I figured that 10 dollars for a bigger screen and much better performance was worth it:-)

Deacon Steve

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/716620#Comment_716620

Please keep us posted!

[:)]

Mark

I am fascinated by the new Surface 3. I have the original Surface Pro. Logos runs very well on it. I have no speed issues. I have been waiting to see the Surface Pro 4, and this new Surface 3 was a pleasant surprise. I noticed on MS's website that it says the Surface 3 will run at 80% of the Surface Pro 3 with an i3 installed. Hmm...

Once the Pro 4 is out, the Pro 3 is less expensive, and the real world testimonies of the Surface 3 are written, then this will be a much easier decision.

R. Mansfield

New in-depth Ars Technica review of the Surface 3:

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/04/surface-3-review-smaller-slower-cheaper-better/

Deacon Steve

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/716724#Comment_716724

New in-depth Ars Technica review of the Surface 3:

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/04/surface-3-review-smaller-slower-cheaper-better/

Active link: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/04/surface-3-review-smaller-slower-cheaper-better/

.... although the benchmarks seem to help make the case for the iPad Air 2 ....

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/716757#Comment_716757

I have an older HP Folio that does fine with 128GB ssd and 4GB ram but it's i3.

My take is that it's going to be a bit slow. Not sure how well you can live with that.

Fred Littlefield

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/716782#Comment_716782

Check out this post for a Surface Pro 2

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103461/716341.aspx#716341

Hope that helps?

Rosie Perera

I wonder if one should wait for the Surface Pro 4 which is rumored to be in the wings.

http://www.techradar.com/news/mobile-computing/tablets/surface-pro-4-slated-for-microsoft-build-2015-debut--1290872

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/716625#Comment_716625

Posting this just to help anyone that might be considering the sp3 i3.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the i3 surface pro with accessories, only cost me $10 more than the 4 gig surface 3 with the same accessories would cost me in Canada.

For that extra $10 I got a bigger screen much faster hard drive, faster processor, better kickstand, etc. (but smaller storage)

After using the sp3 for 2 days, and comparing it with my dell venue pro, and my 6 core AMD desktop, I am impressed (but not blown away) with the performance.

As far as running Logos goes, It's start up time isn't stellar but acceptable (20-25 seconds). it is about 5-10 seconds faster than the dell, and about 5 seconds slower than my desktop.

Once logos is running, the program runs very smooth on the i3 (noticeably better than my desktop that has much better specs, more ram, a dedicated video card, ssd, etc.)

As far as heat, running logos, facebook, word, email, etc. doesn't make it break a sweat. The fan never comes on - and the battery life for this kind of work is exceptional!! I just finished 8 hours of work, during that time the surface was being used about 5 and a half hours and in connected standby for 2:30 hours. I had the screen at 25-30% brightness and I am currently at 50% battery life!! I never expected anywhere near this - my dell would be dead by now if I used it a full day like this. I was watching the core speed on the processor and it stayed at 600 most of the time and only rarely went up to 1500mhz. My Dell venue on the other hand has to work much harder on these same tasks and the battery goes much quicker.

Just a side note on battery life. My first day with it it only lasted a little less than 5 hours as I was installing updates, logos was indexing, etc. During that time it really heated up, and the fan was on often.

On things like web browsing the speed is just a touch slower than my desktop (hardly noticeable)

So far it has been acceptable in every way - I really did want the i5 but it was more money than I had - but if my battery life continues like this, I am more than satisfied with the i3.

Ragnheðin Ryggstein

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/717378#Comment_717378

I would like to thank you Greg, for a great review.

And I think this is going to be the one for me

I've heard about Windows and applications are taking up about 25-30 GB of space, so how does it look like on the surface?

Again thanks

Ragnheðin

Mark Nolette

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/717539#Comment_717539

Most people find that Logos runs best on a device that has at least 8 gb of RAM, an i5 processor, and an SSD. If the display size of the new Surface 3 is fine for you, you can get a used Surface Pro 2, with an i5, 8 gb of RAM, and a 256 GB SSD (and Type Cover) in good condition on places like eBay for about $650. A used Surface Pro 3 with Type Cover and similar specs (but larger display) will run you $1000 or more. Chances are, when the Surface Pro 4 is announced, prices for the SP 2 and 3 will drop a bit more.

I'd suggest the SP 2 as an economical way to go. Its performance is close enough to the SP 3 that it could handle Logos very well. Or, wait for the SP 4 to be released and buy the SP 3 on sale.

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/717539#Comment_717539

I would like to thank you Greg, for a great review.

And I think this is going to be the one for me

I've heard about Windows and applications are taking up about 25-30 GB of space, so how does it look like on the surface?

Again thanks

Ragnheðin

Currently I have 21 GB free on my C drive.

I have full Microsoft office 356 installed, all windows and surface updates, my favorite apps and programs (about 1gb worth), and of course logos which is over 12 gigs (silver plus many added books, but I have many "hidden" that I know I will never use).

When I was done installing everything I was down to like 12 GB free, but then I turned off hibernation (I want to use connected stand by anyway), and also ran disk clean up including cleaning the windows updates. Between these two things I got up to 21 gigs free. (by the way the clean up for windows updates takes a long time!!, if you do this I suggest plugging it in and leaving it for the night)

I also have a high speed 32 gig SD card that I have my one drive, pictures, videos, music, and downloads folders stored on.

I haven't backed up and deleted the recovery partition yet, but that will give me another 5 and a half GB - so over 26 GB free on the main drive and 32 gigs to use on the SD card.

I know from my years with the 32 GB venue 8 pro that I could free up a even more space with a little effort, but I am very comfortable with this amount of free space for my usage, and am not even in a hurry to get rid of the recovery partition.

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/717641#Comment_717641

I just got a Toshiba Encore 2 Write and it's also an Atom with only 2GB of RAM and Logos runs, but just barely. I'm guessing the S3 might perform a little better, but not much.

Ragnheðin Ryggstein

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/717641#Comment_717641

Again thanks

I guess I have all the information's now, that I need

Kind regards

Ragnheðin

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/717784#Comment_717784

I just got a Toshiba Encore 2 Write and it's also an Atom with only 2GB of RAM and Logos runs, but just barely. I'm guessing the S3 might perform a little better, but not much.

Agreed. No doubt the atom processor would be quick enough, but the gpu, storage and the memory speed really hold the processor back. I remember back in the logos 4 beta stage, Logos was really slow on my system. I chucked in some extra memory with no improvement. Then I tried a better video card, and it was like night and day performance wise. So my biggest question would be whether the improvements to the gpu in the new atom x7 will be enough to make logos usable. Id rather someone else test that:-)

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/717794#Comment_717794

Again thanks

I guess I have all the information's now, that I need

Kind regards

Ragnheðin

No problem - I hope it works out for you. I also hope that the logos team does some work on the touch input for us Surface users:-)

JoshInRI

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/717784#Comment_717784

Thanks. I will NOT be buying the Surface 3.

Gary Butner, Th.D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/716062#Comment_716062

I have almost 8,000 Logos resources, and my Samsung loads In approximately 10 seconds.

David Wanat

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/712431#Comment_712431

OK, I'm seeing comments on how it works vs. a laptop replacement. But how about as a tablet replacement? I have an old Galaxy Tab 2 and have been thinking of switching to a newer tablet. But given I have some moral issues with Apple right now, I was wondering how this one would stack up against an iPad Air 2 or the like.

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/720543#Comment_720543

The best thing will be that this runs full Logos. The hard part is that it will likely barely run it. I'll let you know. I'll have it hopefully May 7.

R. Mansfield

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/720893#Comment_720893

I'll have it hopefully May 7.

Me, too. You may have told me, but which one are you getting, Kevin? I'm getting the 128/4.

Shipping on my order says "By May 5." I really wish that could mean something much sooner.

If everything runs satisfactorily, this may become my primary Windows machine since I use Windows to a lesser degree than I use my Mac.

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/720894#Comment_720894

I'm getting the same. Returned the Encore.

R. Mansfield

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/720897#Comment_720897

I'm getting the same. Returned the Encore.

I plan on selling my Encore 2 Write since there's no need for me to have that and the Surface 3, but I do believe the E2W is a great little Windows tablet.

Linval London

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/720894#Comment_720894

I just picked up my Surface 3 today...got Logos loaded on it....so far so good. I have gone from a Surface Pro (1st gen) to this so I know its a step down power wise, but it's not horrible. I'm waiting for it to finish indexing at the moment, then I can hopefully give some answers to anyone on the fence about this thing.... I am at your service [:)] Bless ya...

Linval London

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/723241#Comment_723241

Update:

I picked up the 128gb/4gb model. Indexing took about 4 hours, but I made the mistake of trying to install office at the same time, so that may have slowed things down a tad.

After the index,

Logos opens: approx 20 secs

Home screen populates: approx 5 secs

Run a search from Go button: 12-15 secs (depends on search topic/text)

Open a book from Library: 1 sec

(just rough timings with stop watch)

Deacon Steve

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/723296#Comment_723296

Thanks for the reports, Linval. How many resources do you have in your library?

Adam Olean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/723296#Comment_723296

Linval, your reports are helpful. Thanks!

So far, two of the most in depth reviews can be found at Notebookcheck and Anandtech. For my purposes, it looks like storage speed would be the biggest bottleneck. Also, charge times might prove too slow for some users.

Edit: It should be noted that Anandtech reviewed the cheaper model with 64gb of storage and 2gb RAM.

Unix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/723450#Comment_723450

That's excellent if it takes somewhat long to charge it!! I'm thrilled! It means less wear on the battery. What's still interesting is whether the battery can be changed when it's completely used up. I will never afford this tablet PC new though, and for at least about 3 years I won't afford it used either:

Also, charge times might prove too slow for some users.

Linval London

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/723390#Comment_723390

2635 items

Adam Olean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/716757#Comment_716757

New in-depth Ars Technica review of the Surface 3:

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/04/surface-3-review-smaller-slower-cheaper-better/

Active link: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/04/surface-3-review-smaller-slower-cheaper-better/

.... although the benchmarks seem to help make the case for the iPad Air 2 ....

The Ars Technica review was quite good! It appears, however, that some of the benchmarks may have gotten a bit skewed. See this discussion: Surface 3 vs. Bay Trail - The Comparison That Everybody Wanted & Nobody Did!

R. Mansfield

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/723456#Comment_723456

I'd be very interested to know how the Surface 3 (mine came in today) compares to the new retina MacBook.

Deacon Steve

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/723450#Comment_723450

Linval, your reports are helpful. Thanks!

So far, two of the most in depth reviews can be found at Notebookcheck and Anandtech. For my purposes, it looks like storage speed would be the biggest bottleneck. Also, charge times might prove too slow for some users.

The Notebookcheck link is to a July 2014 Surface Pro 3 review.

Adam Olean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/723459#Comment_723459

Linval, your reports are helpful. Thanks!

So far, two of the most in depth reviews can be found at Notebookcheck and Anandtech. For my purposes, it looks like storage speed would be the biggest bottleneck. Also, charge times might prove too slow for some users.

The Notebookcheck link is to a July 2014 Surface Pro 3 review.

Sorry about that! I had the right one, but then it looks like I got them mixed up. It should be fixed now.

Josh Hunt

can you install more ram? Ram is pretty cheap

R. Mansfield

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/723476#Comment_723476

can you install more ram? Ram is pretty cheap

Nope. Better get the one with 4 GB because it can't be upgraded later.

Deacon Steve

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/723461#Comment_723461

Linval, your reports are helpful. Thanks!

So far, two of the most in depth reviews can be found at Notebookcheck and Anandtech. For my purposes, it looks like storage speed would be the biggest bottleneck. Also, charge times might prove too slow for some users.

The Notebookcheck link is to a July 2014 Surface Pro 3 review.

Sorry about that! I had the right one, but then it looks like I got them mixed up. It should be fixed now.

I think there is still an issue with the link ... at least I am unable to get it to work. Is this the article to which you are referring?

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Microsoft-Surface-3-Tablet-First-Impressions.141116.0.html

Adam Olean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/723483#Comment_723483

Linval, your reports are helpful. Thanks!

So far, two of the most in depth reviews can be found at Notebookcheck and Anandtech. For my purposes, it looks like storage speed would be the biggest bottleneck. Also, charge times might prove too slow for some users.

The Notebookcheck link is to a July 2014 Surface Pro 3 review.

Sorry about that! I had the right one, but then it looks like I got them mixed up. It should be fixed now.

I think there is still an issue with the link ... at least I am unable to get it to work. Is this the article to which you are referring?

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Microsoft-Surface-3-Tablet-First-Impressions.141116.0.html

Hey Steve,

This time the link should definitely be working. I think the problem, at least this time, was with Microsoft's Project Spartan browser, which is currently in beta. This is actually the second time I've run into a problem attaching multiple links to text and/or trying to subsequently edit them. Anyway, I reported the problem to Microsoft, so I am sure they'll fix it sooner or later.

Edit: I'll post the URL here as well: http://www.notebookcheck.net/index.php?id=141116