Faithlife Pre-Pub is it a broken system?
I am opting to start a debate on the merits of the Pre-Pub system. I know this is a tried and true system for FL and I am not saying it should be completely abandoned. But more and more FL is getting resources after Olivetree and Accordance get them. I use two examples. the Reformation Study Bible Notes (2015), is not even being worked on yet by FL yet the other two sell it. New Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible (5 vols.) was available in OT years before it came to FL and even Acc had it months before FL. I am not here to debate the superiority of Logos over the other two platforms each have their strengths. The question is are not sales being hurt of FL products by always coming late to the the game? There are numerous people who will buy nothing by FL that is good and ideal for FL but there are other people, i would even guess a majority who are willing to look elsewhere. I know for example the majority of the works I want in FL are in the Classics of Western Spirituality Bundle (126 vols.) now this well may never get made yet I would suspect 1/3 of the titles in this massive collection would be heavy sellers for FL, but because of the Pre-PUB system and the cost of this massive collection FL loses sales to say Kindle for key classical works of Spirituality. For items that FL wonders if it can sell maybe PP is a good thing, but for key resources it may be a failing. I am just trying to start constructive debate that may let FL know what their customers think. I do realize ultimately it is their private business and they must make the decisions, but I care enough about FL as a product to want to raise the question.
-Dan
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I don't think it's broken. Indeed it's quite effective. I think my question would be ... what exactly is it for? I see bazillions of nere-do-well books never passing through PP, ready for shipment. And for good reason ... how many Denise's are there? Just an inaccurate impression.
But when it's time to complete a commentary set, it's PP time.
I say 'effective' since it makes it seem like a book has a chance.
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Yeah I do get frustrated when a Pre-Pub, like the RSB, seems to be stalled when I can get it on other platforms just because PP hasn't taken off.
Then it was about at 75% interest the other day, now close to 30-40%?? How does that happen?
Pre-pub (traditionally) should be like a pre-order. It is already in development. Community Pricing should be the interest gathering.
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David Taylor Jr said:
Yeah I do get frustrated when a Pre-Pub, like the RSB, seems to be stalled when I can get it on other platforms just because PP hasn't taken off.
Then it was about at 75% interest the other day, now close to 30-40%?? How does that happen?
Yes, the RSB was near the end, but now it has regressed significantly. Maybe a lot of people cancelled their prepub orders. Very frustrating...
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While I do think PrePub is a smart idea on Bob's part...an idea which has provided some savings to customers over the years...I definitely think there are times when some resources should just be fast-tracked into production. When? Well, that will of necessity be a judgment call and whoever is making the call won't judge in the same manner I or you or anyone else would judge. But I still think it should become a practice for certain items, especially those with profound importance or a time-critical aspect. Again, what fits those criteria will be a matter of opinion and judgment, but that's inevitable.
While we might on occasion dwell on the "tails" side of this practice, the fact is that PrePub keeps Logos financially solvent. We all benefit from Logos remaining a healthy entity. We may all have a "golden egg" that we want in our sweaty hands right now, but it behooves us not to kill the goose.
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David Paul said:
While I do think PrePub is a smart idea on Bob's part...an idea which has provided some savings to customers over the years...I definitely think there are times when some resources should just be fast-tracked into production. When? Well, that will of necessity be a judgment call and whoever is making the call won't judge in the same manner I or you or anyone else would judge. But I still think it should become a practice for certain items, especially those with profound importance or a time-critical aspect. Again, what fits those criteria will be a matter of opinion and judgment, but that's inevitable.
While we might on occasion dwell on the "tails" side of this practice, the fact is that PrePub keeps Logos financially solvent. We all benefit from Logos remaining a healthy entity. We may all have a "golden egg" that we want in our sweaty hands right now, but it behooves us not to kill the goose.
Agreed. I think there may just need to be more clarification on the Pre-Pubs, how they work, how things get fast tracked, etc....
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David Taylor Jr said:
I think there may just need to be more clarification on the Pre-Pubs, how they work, how things get fast tracked, etc....
I don't think we are going to get the "inside story" on this. Some things get fast tracked because FL knows they want the resource, knows it will sell, has already received licensing agreements, and puts it on pre-pub while it is worked on. Some resources are "fast tracked" because they will be added to upcoming base packages. Other resources are less of a priority.
I always want the resources I want NOW. So do we all. We also complain when "logos edition" resources aren't as "full featured" as we had hoped. One suggestion I had a while ago was to charge those who do pre-pub up front once an agreement has been made... and to provide the user with a Vyrso edition of the resource while the resource is "under development." I don't think that will happen, but I would love to see it.
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It is somewhat suspicious that the level drops down significantly the day it is released in Accordance, but my suspicions is that it was determined to need more work than initially. I know i had asked Bob in an email years back how many more orders were needed to get NIB under production. And he said he would look into it and after that he said the project had more work to it and it went down significantly.
-Dan
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alabama24 said:
I don't think we are going to get the "inside story" on this. Some things get fast tracked because FL knows they want the resource, knows it will sell, has already received licensing agreements, and puts it on pre-pub while it is worked on. Some resources are "fast tracked" because they will be added to upcoming base packages. Other resources are less of a priority.
I always want the resources I want NOW. So do we all. We also complain when "logos edition" resources aren't as "full featured" as we had hoped. One suggestion I had a while ago was to charge those who do pre-pub up front once an agreement has been made... and to provide the user with a Vyrso edition of the resource while the resource is "under development." I don't think that will happen, but I would love to see it.
I just wish some items suspected of being big sellers would go directly to under development label. I never meant to imply PP system needs to be abandoned, just that sometimes it might seriously hurt FL market share of sales. I felt it was important to discuss what are feelings of frustration and the limitations of the PP system to possible offer constructive feedback to FL.
-Dan
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alabama24 said:
One suggestion I had a while ago was to charge those who do pre-pub up front once an agreement has been made... and to provide the user with a Vyrso edition of the resource while the resource is "under development." I don't think that will happen, but I would love to see it.
I was just thinking the same thing. Perhaps all resources should be immediately released as a Vyrso book (because practically all books being published today have a prepared electronic edition ready to go with the physical release). Then the Pre-Pub can be our vote and prioritization of the Logosification of our Vyrso resources.
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I would almost rather have the actual content now whether or not it has tags. At least to have the resource, but that may just be me. So yeah, a vyrso solution would be nice.alabama24 said:David Taylor Jr said:I think there may just need to be more clarification on the Pre-Pubs, how they work, how things get fast tracked, etc....
I don't think we are going to get the "inside story" on this. Some things get fast tracked because FL knows they want the resource, knows it will sell, has already received licensing agreements, and puts it on pre-pub while it is worked on. Some resources are "fast tracked" because they will be added to upcoming base packages. Other resources are less of a priority.
I always want the resources I want NOW. So do we all. We also complain when "logos edition" resources aren't as "full featured" as we had hoped. One suggestion I had a while ago was to charge those who do pre-pub up front once an agreement has been made... and to provide the user with a Vyrso edition of the resource while the resource is "under development." I don't think that will happen, but I would love to see it.
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I agree that this is a major flaw in Logos/Faithlife/Bob's business plan. The example I cite is how long it took From Heaven He Came and Sought Her to get published. If current scholarship takes 2 years or more to enter into my Logos Library, then they will loose out on a substantial amount of my funds going to Kindle. This is not a new issue for Bob to address and what has been done (ie. PP for books). has been a poor fix. I again see programs (Logos Now for one) taking precedence over QA of current inventory, publications of journals and current content.
What does it mean to Logos when a 12+ year user of Logos with thousands of dollars invested is ready to walk away and start over with another program that gets it?
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Everett Headley said:
What does it mean to Logos when a 12+ year user of Logos with thousands of dollars invested is ready to walk away and start over with another program that gets it?
For me Logos is the new kid on the block having used Accordance since it's beginning and Olivetree since 2002. And Logos since it's announcement in 2005 that it was coming to the mac. Because of the vast number of resources Logos offers it is where most of my money is invested, but I do not use it exclusively and love the other two for the mobile apps and the quickness of Accordances desktop app. My goal is not to chase other into the arms of competitors but to ask how the best of what the others have to offer can come to Logos. And how to enhance the way Logos offers new products.
-Dan
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Everett Headley said:
I agree that this is a major flaw in Logos/Faithlife/Bob's business plan. The example I cite is how long it took From Heaven He Came and Sought Her to get published. If current scholarship takes 2 years or more to enter into my Logos Library, then they will loose out on a substantial amount of my funds going to Kindle.
I agree that it can be frustrating to wait for a new resource to come through Pre-pub but I'm not sure what else could be done about this. It takes time and money to invest in each resource and Faithlife has to be sure that there is a market for each resource. Pre-pub may not be perfect, but I can't think of anything better at this time.
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Bruce Dunning said:
I agree that it can be frustrating to wait for a new resource to come through Pre-pub but I'm not sure what else could be done about this. It takes time and money to invest in each resource and Faithlife has to be sure that there is a market for each resource. Pre-pub may not be perfect, but I can't think of anything better at this time.
Obviously, other MAJOR e-publishers are beating Logos to production. It seems those businesses are still viable. I mean, if I would buy it on Amazaon, why wouldn't I want it on Logos. Many other books go straight into publishing (on Vyrso) without the PP. I know I am not the only one who uses Logos for scholarship and would very much like to have more current offerings (see Journal Laments from the past 3 years)
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Dan Francis said:
I know for example the majority of the works I want in FL are in the Classics of Western Spirituality Bundle (126 vols.) now this well may never get made yet I would suspect 1/3 of the titles in this massive collection would be heavy sellers for FL, but because of the Pre-PUB system and the cost of this massive collection FL loses sales to say Kindle for key classical works of Spirituality.
-Dan
Question: Is the issue pre-pub or bundling or users wanting unrealistic discounts?
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MJ. Smith said:
Question: Is the issue pre-pub or bundling or users wanting unrealistic discounts?
I seriously suspect it is a combination of all three... IF I want to read Julian of Norwich's Showings I search here first and discover not only is it not yet available but i have to purchase it in a bundle and hope that one day it gets made. Now the wonderful Paulist Press edition is not available in Kindle but a few other editions are, do I wait 2-3 years for it to possibly come to Logos or do I buy a copy elsewhere? I think the 126 volumes are adequately discounted on this prepub to make an attractive purchase. It is no 99¢ copy like you find on kindle but it is a good value compared to the print editions. Perhaps Bruce is right and this is best system over all, I just would hope FL is open to consider alternatives at times. The PP system may show there is little desire for the Classics of Western Spirituality Bundle (126 vols.) but it teases that such a fine product is on the radar but so very far off. A majority of the books would be very much at home in the Verbum world, but I realize not all, would someone come to Logos for them maybe, I would suspect as many as come to FL for Noet packages. I realize FL can not offer every book, but books they know they want to carry I think should have option to get made ASAP (and I am well aware this may not include CWS, for what are key works to me may be so much straw to another).
-Dan
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While you all are on the topic of Pre-pub, let me give you an example that probably no one can explain. I was interested in the Langham Monographs because I am a missionary in Africa and at least half of the books have an African perspective. It was barely supported, maybe an 8th. Suddenly it goes into production and ships within three weeks. Since it happened last month, I canceled my order since I had so many other things I was buying. Any explanations on this? It just seems that the Pre-pub rules are there, but they can be broken with or without explanation.
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Prepubs often get produced when they have not reached the required funding. Faithlife promises to publish the resource if we manage to raise publication costs in prepub. Faithlife makes no statement about what will happen if we don't raise the publication costs. Faithlife has to make that decision based upon what they need to produce to ensure a balance of resources especially for base packages, bundles, and marketing targeted audiences - or, perhaps, even some outside source such as a publisher or seminary pushing the issue with some funding or outher clout.
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I just wish they would decide to produce some of the volumes that are must buy. When this happens, it always seem to be with something I have no problem dropping.
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David Taylor Jr said:
I would almost rather have the actual content now whether or not it has tags. At least to have the resource, but that may just be me. So yeah, a vyrso solution would be nice.
Agree. This was my suggestion the other day. I really have very little requirement for the tagging (except for bible verses) if the text is fully searchable.
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MJ. Smith said:Dan Francis said:
I know for example the majority of the works I want in FL are in the Classics of Western Spirituality Bundle (126 vols.) now this well may never get made yet I would suspect 1/3 of the titles in this massive collection would be heavy sellers for FL, but because of the Pre-PUB system and the cost of this massive collection FL loses sales to say Kindle for key classical works of Spirituality.
-Dan
Question: Is the issue pre-pub or bundling or users wanting unrealistic discounts?
I think this is a key question, MJ. I would almost certainly suggest that the Classics of Western Spirituality is too large (and too expensive) to get anywhere for several years. I think it needs to be rebundled. There are quite a lot of "classics" that span various traditions, many of which wouldn't be of interest to those who buy on a tradition specific basis.
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I think too that some people probably (I know I have) pull out of a PP or CP because it takes too long and they lose hope.
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Pre-pub allows people like me to lock in at a low price who would have difficulty paying the full price, and do not have the cost of the Pre-pub at the time we lock it in.
To change the model to require a down payment would mean that some (I) would miss many great deals.
I have a book budget but it is not that large. I get most of my books through Base packages.
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Lynden Williams said:
Pre-pub allows people like me to lock in at a low price who would have difficulty paying the full price, and do not have the cost of the Pre-pub at the time we lock it in.
To change the model to require a down payment would mean that some (I) would miss many great deals.
I have a book budget but it is not that large. I get most of my books through Base packages.
I don't know if it's just my perception, but I haven't been seeing as many deals on pre-pub. There seem to be a couple of outstanding ones at the moment, so it's not like it's all the time, but I feel like the pre-pub discount often isn't (especially if you can wait for a sale or bundling).
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I don't see any "deals" on PP. What I see are books that Logos is hedging their bets on whether they should produce them or not. When I see deals, they are in CP.
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PP and CP are often good deals. But that does not stop spending money.
I just wonder if I started now, I could not buy all what I have with the same funds, but I would probably be much more selective, and the end result could be equally useful.
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I am glad to see the exceptions pointed out clearly telling us that at times PrePub is in name only. But I feel in those cases where PP has been skipped a more useful designation might be to label it under development. I do believe I can come up with one more exception... Westminster Bible Companion did go from almost there to shipping in about 5 weeks, so it may well be possible the Reformation Study Bible is being worked on but it is also just as possible no work has started. Even if PP is left alone fully can at least get items FL has prioritized and is literally being worked on labeled as Under Development??? Maybe the distinction is not that important but I do feel such a simple distinction might keep some from giving up hope and purchasing elsewhere. I personally am not even in for the PP of the RSB (after comparing the sample with my New Geneva Study Bible I decided I could live without the update), but it seemed to me to be sad thing that it's development is languishing while it is for sale elsewhere many other places. To use the example given above of a hot selling book taking 2 years to reach FL is good example again. By the time it reaches FL many people may well have read it elsewhere and see no need for it in their FL library. I feel that I am definitely in the minority having raised the question (not that I wanted PP done away with) but I my hope not to get rid of PP but to have it tweaked to be better.
-Dan
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Veli Voipio said:
PP and CP are often good deals. But that does not stop spending money.
I just wonder if I started now, I could not buy all what I have with the same funds, but I would probably be much more selective, and the end result could be equally useful.
The way PP is structured now, it is designed to make you less selective because it often forces customers to buy bundles now ( sometimes with many books that you would not even think about purchasing or event borrowing if it was not for the bundle). This artificial sense of urgency is reinforced by the fact that the price is designed to increase after a few weeks of the initial offering thus encouraging you to buy now and keep your order because you do not have the luxury of ordering later at the same price even if it is still in the PP stage.
For me this approach while certainly beneficial to Logos' bottom line, is wasteful and often leads to regret, I do not think that the customers interest was first and foremost in that decision.
If I had to start over again, I would probably only have half of the books I have now in my library.
A good deal is only so if you actually use what you buy.
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Alain Maashe said:
way PP is structured now, it is designed to make you less selective because it often forces customers to buy bundles now ( sometimes with many books that you would not even think about purchasing or event borrowing if it was not for the bundle).
Very often Publishers dictate how the books should be sold by Logos. In other words, they want them bundled. Logos goes after not so much one book, but probably 30 - 40 at a time that are being published/released at a time.
The publisher says to Logos, You may publish these, but put them in a bundle until we decide that you can unbundle them.
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Lynden Williams said:Alain Maashe said:
way PP is structured now, it is designed to make you less selective because it often forces customers to buy bundles now ( sometimes with many books that you would not even think about purchasing or event borrowing if it was not for the bundle).
Very often Publishers dictate how the books should be sold by Logos. In other words, they want them bundled. Logos goes after not so much one book, but probably 30 - 40 at a time that are being published/released at a time.
The publisher says to Logos, You may publish these, but put them in a bundle until we decide that you can unbundle them.
If the publishers are to blame for this trend (something I really doubt), then Logos is very bad at negotiating because competitors often do not have the same restrictions and are generally able to offer bundles and individual books at the same time.
It is hard to believe that Logos, the biggest player in the Bible software industry, consistently gets worse deals than smaller players.
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Alain Maashe said:
If the publishers are to blame for this trend (something I really doubt), then Logos is very bad at negotiating because competitors often do not have the same restrictions and are generally able to offer bundles and individual books at the same time.
I have no inside info about FL's negotiations. I do know that things are a little different with Logos resources since they are "value added" resources.
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Call me crazy, but I think that FL has changed its focus to production of their own resources/datasets because:
1. They are more profitable.
2. They don't have to compete on price with companies like Amazon, OT/Harper Collins and Accordance.
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Tony Thomas said:
Call me crazy, but I think that FL has changed its focus to production of their own resources/datasets because:
1. They are more profitable.
2. They don't have to compete on price with companies like Amazon, OT/Harper Collins and Accordance.
I don't think "changed" is the right word..."broadened" is more accurate, and "more profit to them". I think it's funny, infuriating, no...funny, no...infuriating, well, I'm pretty sure it's one of those...that Logos customers are constantly griping about how they want to own their own products in case Logos goes out of business, but when methods of generating revenue, such as, say...I don't know...Logos Now, for instance, are implemented, which would help Faithlife have steady, dependable (oh, did I mention VOLUNTARY??) income, they get uncomfortable, pissy, no...uncomfortable, no...pissy, well, I'm quite sure it's one of those...even though the revenue stream that Logos Now will generate for Faithlife is the magic elixir that will keep the dreaded bogey man of bankruptcy from ever showing his unwelcomed head. Odd, that.
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Tony Thomas said:
Call me crazy, but I think that FL has changed its focus to production of their own resources/datasets because:
1. They are more profitable.
2. They don't have to compete on price with companies like Amazon, OT/Harper Collins and Accordance.
Undoubtably one can look at CP as a prime example. Designed to make sure production costs are covered after that each and every sale is close to 100% profit. I am not saying that many of the works are not worth their cost, just that the post price seems rather high... for example, Classic Commentary collection ends up being $3500 for each sale with a high portion of profit. Are those 1500 volumes worth it, very possibly but it also ends up being an extremely good deal for FL. But on point 2 they tend to price the resources far higher than Amazon (say Treasury of David, numerous kindle versions are available from 79¢ to $9, FL regular price on the set is $60). Now I would not want to have TOD in Kindle and the FL version is much more valuable due to it's tagging, but as it's production cost have been covered by CP is $59 a justifiable price and in March Madness this resource ends up costing $126 to purchase (the madness would come if anyone bought this).
-Dan
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It's broken in the sense that it takes too long for products to make it out of production. I know people complain when there's too many products coming out, but hey, that's on them for ordering too many things that they will not be able to afford, but for us who are on a tight budget and only order the few things we need, it shouldn't be a problem if things are released early; but instead, we are made to wait too long for prepubs that have been in production too long. Yes I know too many too longs hehehe
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