Hiding books

alabama24 said:

And the point of having a large library is being able to find things you didn't know you have. If you know all of your resouces and what's in them, why pay a logos surcharge?

Hmmm.  Interesting take on things - I'm not sure I understand it, though.  I own resource material on Logos, for the same purpose that I own physical lexicons and commentaries.  I own them so that I can search those desired resources when I'm studying the Bible.  When I'm preparing a sermon, a teaching, or an article on a passage, I would like to search a host of specific resources on the topic or passage that I know would be helpful to me.  Knowing that I have specific quality sources doesn't make it bad to search them.  And no, I guess I don't know everything that is in every commentary and lexicon I own, or I guess you'd be right, that there would be no point in owning it.  That's why I have Logos - so it can search those resources for me, and give me what I'm looking for.  Not saying that searching blindly unfamiliar resources could never be helpful.  Only that my main purpose in owning Logos is not to search what I don't know I have, but to search what I do know I have.

alabama24 said:

if he is really looking for help, he needs to post computer specs and perhaps post logs. That is really the only way we can help.

I could probably get his computer specs from him, but at this point, he would not have a clue as to how to post logs (either do I), and he wouldn't have the time in the few days he has left to learn how to do that.

alabama24 said:

I can't imagine taking dead tree books is going to be cheap. There may be things he can do to speed up his computer with the funds he would have paid in shipping... But it doesn't sound like that's a priority for him. 

Yeah, that was my thought, also.  He says he can ship "ocean freight" for about $30 for 100 pounds.  It's hard for me to believe that is true, but I know his agency has a deal with a shipping company.  Even so, looking at his machine and at Amazon, I told him I thought that even at $30, that gets him almost half way to a memory upgrade that could probably help his speed considerably.

He was happy with the collection he had before he loaded the new package, and was able to use it just fine on his laptop.  He was also excited about some of the new resources he would gain with the new collection.  He was just ruined on how adding the new package changed its performance on his computer so significantly.  I think I've talked him into calling Tech support about seeing if his machine can be rolled back to what it was before he added the new software.  Not the outcome I had hoped he would have, but better than him trying to cart all his physical study materials around.

Thanks for throwing in.

Alabama24

Wow.  Let's see - I began using Logos around 1995, about 20 years ago.  I'm disappointed to find out that I have been using it wrong all those years...  In that 20 years, I have probably used it 45-50 weeks during each year, for between 6 and 15 hours a week.  It's not an exaggeration to say that using Logos has saved me thousands of hours.  Almost never has "searching a library" been a part of my routine.  I'm not sure how familiar you are with the process of in-depth exegesis of a text for the purpose of preparing a sermons, teachings, or articles, but "searching a library" would add far more time than my pastoral calendar will allow, and the same is true of all the pastors I know personally.

alabama24 said:

If I had that philosophy, I would simply purchase the kindle edition of those resources.

That would be terrible advice to give someone, for a couple of reasons.  First, the only way you would be using the prominent Greek and Hebrew lexicons on a Kindle would be if you personally created those tools, typing the entire volumes in yourself.  Virtually none of them exist in either Kindle, or epub formats, so to "simply purchase the kindle edition of those resources is not possible.

Secondly, even if you could get Kindle versions of those sources, and effectively search for lexical definitions, trying to do even moderate exegetical work on a Kindle would be absurd.  My normal procedure is to have the original language text open (Greek or Hebrew) and 3 English versions of the Bible.  I will work through the Greek text first, accessing a lexicon for any word I'm not fairly familiar with.  Once I've taken notes on the basic content of the passage, and on any significant sentence structure, I will compare what I have with my 3 reliable English translations.  Then I choose all of the significant words of the passage (maybe 8 to 30 words, depending on the passage), that will be looking up in 3 or 4 Greek or Hebrew lexicons, and when needed, original language encyclopedias, like the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Colin Brown) or Kittel's TDNT.

Just trying to do that much with a Kindle, if the resources were available, would take many more hours, and be far slower than even back when I had all my hard copy books spread all over my desk.  You would have to open one book, close it to open another book, close it to open another book, close it...  It is literally an absurd suggestion.

alabama24 said:

The benefit of Logos is searching a Library, not a single book.

I find it interesting that you think that if you are not searching an entire library, then you have to search a single book.  And it is equally absurd to say that "the benefit of Logos is..."  There are many benefits of good Bible software, including Logos.  When I stared with Bible software, the ability to search the entire library wasn't a practical reality.  In fact, to say that searching an entire library is always beneficial is absurd.  For me to have to weed through hundreds or thousands of hits when I am looking up a lexical definition of a specific Greek or Hebrew word would be preposterous.

alabama24 said:

Likewise, the purpose of buying a base package is to build your library. If you were researching a topic, would you want to visit the Mayberry library, or the Library of Congress?

Wow.  More absurdity.  Are you really telling me that there is only one reason to buy a base package, and you are the arbiter of that reason?  How about this:  Perhaps the reason to buy a "base package" is that you need 30-50 resource tools to fulfill the weekly part of your job of preparing sermons, teachings, lectures, and writings.  To buy each of those resources individually might cost, let's say, $2000.  However, you might find that a "base package" contains all but a few of those packages, for much less money than that $2000, leaving you only a few individual books you need to buy.

It is precisely like satellite or cable tv.  It would be foolish to say, "I'm going to buy the more expensive package, because it has hundreds more channels, even if I won't watch a single one of them."  This is why these companies don't put all the best channels in one package, the same way Logos gives "thousands" of books, but doesn't put all the resources that, say, a pastor might want, into a cheaper package.

Unlike you, I couldn't care less about "building my library," with resources that I will never have the time or the inclination to read.  If I could, I would love for the base packages to be a-la-carte.  You get 100 books, you choose which ones.  However, they would never do that.

All that to say, if the "Mayberry Library" had all the resources I needed to do my weekly studies, I would MUCH RATHER study there, where all of my needed resources are not overwhelmed by a majority of books that don't address anything relating to what I'm studying.

alabama24 said:

It sounds like your friend is not fully sold on ebooks / Logos if he is really considering taking 100 pounds of books overseas.

If he isn't "fully sold on ebooks / Logos," then he's spent the last 10 years of his life frustrated or confused.  He bought a mid-level Logos package (and a Pradis package that was a killer deal, for a few very expensive resources) about 10 years ago, and he's used it fore every sermon he's prepared over that time.  In fact, in that time he's probably sold more of our pastor-friends on Logos than I have.

What you've missed is what SineNomine was trying to explain to you.  Just because the guy is not a tech guy, and isn't into each new iteration of Logos/Windows/Intel/Apple doesn't mean using Logos isn't important to him, or radically useful to him.  You clearly have no understanding of what it means to use technology, but not keep up with the latest, greatest all the time.  That's fine, but it doesn't mean everyone is either like you, or they don't get significant use out of Logos.

My friend's mistake was loading a new, huge Logos package onto his old computer, a little more than a week before he was heading off to the mission field.  What he had was working for him.  However, it is not a simple thing to just go back to what you had(Uninstall the new, and re-install the old), because Logos ties your packages to their cloud, to their licenses at HQ.  Once you've bought it, I believe there is no way for the individual to roll it back to what you had before.  As to him wanting to take his physical books, again, I'm not sure you understand the strain involved in the last week before you leave to the field for 3 years, and what it means for a non-technical guy to lose the use of his very necessary computer, and not be sure how he'd get it back.  He has no desire to haul those books around, but at that point, he was panicked.  Fortunately, I think we've gotten the problem on the way to being solved.

My point in this long response is, just because someone doesn't use Logos like you do (however that is), it doesn't mean that they are using it wrong, or even in "not the best way."  Logos (and two other software programs that have since disappeared) began as a program with the pastor largely in mind.  Among the first tools were some of the most scholarly original language tools that are really only particularly useful to pastors and scholars.  Searching an entire library wasn't even a thing back then, but searching specific tools was, just as it still is for those who use Logos as a tool for their jobs, week in and week out.

For what it's worth.

SineNomine said:

Alabama, I'm not sure that you have correctly identified the problem. I too would be unsold on using Verbum/Logos if all of a sudden it ceased to be usable and I didn't see a viable way of fixing that.

Yeah, that is exactly the situation he found himself in.  I think it's an unforeseen problem with the way Logos keeps licenses, and indexes books.  If you upgrade, that that negatively impacts your system, it looks like you can't go back without calling Logos Customer Support - which he finally did.

Fred Littlefield said:

If he is a Missionary someone should appeal to the church for a new computer for him? It sounds like his computer isn't up to the job.

Fred, I'm hoping that's how this is finally resolved, in the end.  He used to pastor a church, and decided to step down to head oversees.  His church has been largely responsible for financing this trip.  I've talked to their new pastor about it, and they plan on getting him a new computer, and shipping it to him (theoretically, with his new software package installed). 

The thing is, the church had asked about buying him a new laptop.  However, when they asked him, they asked if he wanted a new "Mac Laptop," or that was how he remembers it.  His Windows laptop was working alright for him, and he didn't want to change platforms, so he said no.

Anyway, he called Logos, and I guess they rolled his package back to what it was before.  He had to re-install, and re-index, which he wasn't thrilled with, but it sounds like it is working like it was before.

Fred Littlefield said:

Logos 6 is bogging down my relatively powerful i7 desktop computer.

Yeah, that's a frustration of mine with Logos continuing to provide cutting edge functions.  I would much prefer if they had a base engine that could run on a 3 or 4 year old computer, as well as their "wiz-bang" program that keeps running on cutting edge technology.  However, I'm not hopeful - I suspect that the vast majority of users would opt for the throttled back version, and that's not what Logos is trying to do at this point.  Once again, it might be like the "new version of Windows," "upgraded satellite tv package" situation. 

Alabama24, I was not offended.  I'm sorry if I came off that way.  Forums are easy fodder for such misunderstandings.  I've also been told that I can come off as snarky when things start to go back and forth.  I need to watch that more.  Sorry about that.

I appreciate that you were the first to jump in, and it looks like you are often willing to give your time here to help.  I don't want my tendency to get a bit abrupt with my responses to discourage you from helping people out.

This forum is more difficult than many, because people use this software for so many different things.  This makes it hard to know precisely where people are coming from, and what they are trying to do.

Grace and peace.