[resolved] Grammatical Construction Tool
It is interesting to me that when I perform a search on the Granville Sharp construction, that Titus 2:13 is not listed. I was always taught in all 4 years of Greek that I had that Titus 2:13 is an example of the Granville Sharpe Construction. Is that a mistake or is it based on a less than conservative grammatical view?
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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It is identified as Granville Sharpe in
Cairns, Alan. Dictionary of Theological Terms. Belfast; Greenville, SC: Ambassador Emerald International, 2002.
According to a Greek grammatical rule (called the "Granville Sharpe Rule"—see Dana and Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, 146–53)
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
It is identified as Granville Sharpe in
Cairns, Alan. Dictionary of Theological Terms. Belfast; Greenville, SC: Ambassador Emerald International, 2002.
According to a Greek grammatical rule (called the "Granville Sharpe Rule"—see Dana and Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, 146–53)
So this is a mistake in the tool, in your thoughts?
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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I'm sure that Rick will comment on this eventually, but I would assume that this is an oversight as Titus 2:13 is a classic Christological example of the Granville Sharp Rule.
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Actually the documentation answers the question as it states precisely what data sources were used for coding. Too bad I can't find the documentation[:'(]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Titus 2:13 is a Granville Sharp construction if you join the Faithlife Group "Logos Syntax Searching", you will find a Syntax Search "complete Granville Sharp Modified" which I constructed from a blog post years ago, and it correctly finds it.
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Pastor Michael Huffman said:MJ. Smith said:
It is identified as Granville Sharpe in
Cairns, Alan. Dictionary of Theological Terms. Belfast; Greenville, SC: Ambassador Emerald International, 2002.
According to a Greek grammatical rule (called the "Granville Sharpe Rule"—see Dana and Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, 146–53)
So this is a mistake in the tool, in your thoughts?
The list of annotated Granville Sharp constructions is taken from Dan Wallace's article "Sharp Redevivus?", available online here: https://bible.org/article/sharp-redivivus-reexamination-granville-sharp-rule . You can see the list on pp. 27–31 in the word doc version ("additional media") of that paper.
Wallace has a special section near the end of this paper discussing Titus 2.13 and 2 Peter 1.1 in particular.
It appears that because these two instances were excerpted from the generic list and discussed separately, they were not annotated along the way. We'll review and add the instances to the dataset.
Thanks for your report!
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
It appears that because these two instances were excerpted from the generic list and discussed separately, they were not annotated along the way. We'll review and add the instances to the dataset.
I've verified that we've added the annotations internally. An update should be included when the next batch of resource updates are delivered.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
MJ. Smith said:
Actually the documentation answers the question as it states precisely what data sources were used for coding. Too bad I can't find the documentation
There was an issue with the documentation resource. We could've released it, but it would break users on mobile platforms. Hopefully the mobile teams will add the necessary support (to view the resource, not the annotation dataset) soon (but I really have no idea when).
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
May sound like a dumb question but where do I find the Grammatical Construction Tool? [:S]
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Its part of the Search and in the current beta part of the grammar section of the bws EG
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Tim Bray said:
May sound like a dumb question but where do I find the Grammatical Construction Tool?
It's not a tool, but a dataset that you can access through search or the context menu. You'll only have access to it if you're a Logos Now subscriber.
You can read the documentation here: logosres:cidbdocgkgram
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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MJ. Smith said:
Its part of the Search and in the current beta part of the grammar section of the bws
It's the Exegetical Guide, not the BWS:
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Also, I believe that we published an update to the Greek Grammatical Constructions documentation resource. So if you've got it (and if you have Logos Now subscription, you should have a license for it) you should be able to find it in your Library. This will explain a little about the dataset and give some examples.
(MJ, the version I presently see is from 04/08. Does that match what you have?)
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
Also, I believe that we published an update to the Greek Grammatical Constructions documentation resource.
Rick, it would help if the search examples in the documentation were linked to a search.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Yes mine is also 4/8
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes said:
Rick, it would help if the search examples in the documentation were linked to a search.
Thanks for the suggestion, Mark. I'll see what we can do.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Ahh there you go...don't have the section...have to find out where to get it :-)
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Tim Bray said:
Ahh there you go...don't have the section...have to find out where to get it :-)
https://www.logos.com/now and https://www.logos.com/features#LogosNow
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:Tim Bray said:
Ahh there you go...don't have the section...have to find out where to get it :-)
https://www.logos.com/now and https://www.logos.com/features#LogosNow
Note the section Mark pointed to is in the current beta of Logos (6.3) and not in the presently shipping version (6.2). If you have Logos Now, you can switch to the beta channel, install the software, and use the new section — but do realize that it is beta software and you may have some issues along the way.
[Edit/Addition]
You do have the Greek Grammatical Constructions in 6.2 if you are a Logos Now subscriber. Go to a search window (Bible Search is good) and enter: {Section <GramCon 1C>}. This will locate First-Class Conditionals in supported Bibles.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Thanks Mark, but already have Logos Now
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Thanks Mark, Now have beta and have updated the software but no section available, tried to add sections to the EG via the edit button bot cant see it
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It is a subsection of the Grammar section - lower part if I recall correctly.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
It is a subsection of the Grammar section - lower part if I recall correctly.
You do recall correctly.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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The only thing I can think of is that my EG doesn't have the sort by subject option
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One has to restart the app to discover the dataset that is behind the new grammar section.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks...did the trick
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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
The list of annotated Granville Sharp constructions is taken from Dan Wallace's article "Sharp Redevivus?", available online here: https://bible.org/article/sharp-redivivus-reexamination-granville-sharp-rule . You can see the list on pp. 27–31 in the word doc version ("additional media") of that paper.
Isn't that just adopting some other person's work wholesale? Is he credited?
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Lee said:
Isn't that just adopting some other person's work wholesale?
No, standard practice is that if one can find a piece of information in three to five independent sources it is "common knowledge". At that point giving references is to point the reader to additional information rather than to provide obligatory documentation for quoted material.
Lee said:Is he credited?
Yes ...
Granville Sharp’s First Rule
A grammatical construction consisting of an article with a substantive, the conjunction και, and an anarthrous substantive agreeing in case and number with the previous. Sharp surmised that the lack of an article in the second substantive indicated both substantives were in relation to the same entity instead of separate entities.
Example: Mark 6:3
ὁ υἱὸς τῆς Μαρίας καὶ ἀδελφὸς Ἰακώβου
The son of Mary and brother of James
More Information
• This can be searched for with {Section <GramCon GSharp>} in the Bible Search (Basic Search can also be used).
• The two substantives can be the same class (noun και noun) or mixed classes (participle και adjective).
• Daniel Wallace provides a detailed discussion of this construction in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics
• Wallace also dedicates an entire essay to the Granville Sharp Construction titled Sharp Redivivus?—A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule
• Stanley E. Porter also provides a discussion of this construction in Idioms of the Greek New Testament
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hi Lee.
Lee said:Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:The list of annotated Granville Sharp constructions is taken from Dan Wallace's article "Sharp Redevivus?", available online here: https://bible.org/article/sharp-redivivus-reexamination-granville-sharp-rule . You can see the list on pp. 27–31 in the word doc version ("additional media") of that paper.
Isn't that just adopting some other person's work wholesale? Is he credited?
As MJ noted, the article is fully cited and we link to it, as well as cite other descriptions and discussions of the issue. Wallace really is the authority on what is and what is not an instance of Granville Sharp's first rule in the NT.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
Hi Lee.
Lee said:Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:The list of annotated Granville Sharp constructions is taken from Dan Wallace's article "Sharp Redevivus?", available online here: https://bible.org/article/sharp-redivivus-reexamination-granville-sharp-rule . You can see the list on pp. 27–31 in the word doc version ("additional media") of that paper.
Isn't that just adopting some other person's work wholesale? Is he credited?
As MJ noted, the article is fully cited and we link to it, as well as cite other descriptions and discussions of the issue. Wallace really is the authority on what is and what is not an instance of Granville Sharp's first rule in the NT.
Thanks for the clarification. Of course probably no-one knows about TSKS constructions more than Wallace. There are a couple of disputed cases, so not everyone's list will be identical. I was concerned that if Logos chooses to adopt Wallace's list, the source should be properly attributed in the documentation.
As things stand, a user such as MJ might reasonably assume that the instances where the G-S rule applies is "common knowledge" and that Wallace is merely being cited for "additional information".
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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
It appears that because these two instances were excerpted from the generic list and discussed separately, they were not annotated along the way. We'll review and add the instances to the dataset.
I've verified that we've added the annotations internally. An update should be included when the next batch of resource updates are delivered.
I believe there will be a resource update today (April 21, 2015) that will include a new version of the dataset with the Granville Sharp instances updated.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0
