[request] Please Support Hebrew (actually)!

Please allow searching on Hebrew vowel points, cantillation marks, and patterns/combinations of these using wildcards.

Just like "@ brings up the Morphology selection dialogue", I suggest that typing "#" or "^" would bring up a "Nikkud" grid where te'amim & vowels would occupy the "Part of Speech" field.
The vowels could be categorized according to length/family, while the te'amim would be divided by conjunctive and 4 levels of disjunctive force.

This dialogue should be available in either Basic, Bible, or Morph searching. Combining Morph and Nikkud searches would be an AWESOME capability!

PLEASE COMMENT AND VOTE FOR THIS here.

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Eli Evans (Logos)

Hi, Reuben. Several levels of mark sensitive searching were added in Logos 5.2. You can see a list of them here https://wiki.logos.com/Search_Matching_Commands . If your query includes the marks you want to search, they will be matched with the specified sensitivity. Just add [match accents] to your query and it should work.

We don't have robust pattern matching at this time.

Reuben Helmuth

Hi, Reuben. Several levels of mark sensitive searching were added in Logos 5.2. You can see a list of them here https://wiki.logos.com/Search_Matching_Commands . If your query includes the marks you want to search, they will be matched with the specified sensitivity. Just add [match accents] to your query and it should work.

We don't have robust pattern matching at this time.

Thanks for you're response Eli. The solution you offer doesn't work for what I need to do. I need (want) to create a visual filter that highlights words with a certain accent mark. In order to do this I obviously need to search for the accent irrespective of the word. I tried this both with attaching an accent mark to either "*" or "?" and in both cases got every word in the Hebrew Bible highlighted (after a LONG time). :-/

I've followed this issue for a while in multiple forum threads and came to the conclusion (which you've affirmed) that "robust pattern matching" isn't available at this time. I feel this is a serious lack that needs to be addressed. I LOVE the input method for Morph searches when compared to the competition and would love to see the same format used as I suggested in the UserVoice forum.

Thanks for considering this!

Veli Voipio

You can see a list of them here https://wiki.logos.com/Search_Matching_Commands .

Thousand thanks, Eli! I didn't know about this, and after some experimenting I got it to work!

Reuben Helmuth

Adding support for search accents in Hebrew should certainly translate to searching accents/diacritics in Greek as well, so ALL Sudents/Scholars of the Original Languages would benefit from this. Please support this idea by voting and spreading the word!

!שלום

David Paul

What advantage is there in having this capability?

Fr Devin Roza

Please allow searching on Hebrew vowel points, cantillation marks, and patterns/combinations of these using wildcards.

Just like "@ brings up the Morphology selection dialogue", I suggest that typing "#" or "^" would bring up a "Nikkud" grid where te'amim & vowels would occupy the "Part of Speech" field.
The vowels could be categorized according to length/family, while the te'amim would be divided by conjunctive and 4 levels of disjunctive force.

This dialogue should be available in either Basic, Bible, or Morph searching. Combining Morph and Nikkud searches would be an AWESOME capability!

PLEASE COMMENT AND VOTE FOR THIS here.

Thanks for bringing this up and creating a UserVoice for it. I gave it 3 votes.

I have oftentimes run across cases where the te'amim make a significant difference in the understanding of a text. I think once one understands how they actually function it is pretty obvious that they are useful - they are sort of like an incredibly advanced system of commas and periods, showing you how to divide and understand the text (and at the same time used for chanting the text as well).

Asking whether the te'amim really make a difference is like asking whether a text with commas and periods would be any different from a text without commas and periods.

This is particularly interesting when you consider that the te'amim were added around the 10th century AD (although of course they reflect a very long tradition of interpretation, as evidenced by the Dead Sea Scrolls). They are not inspired, but they do have a great influence on modern English translations, which normally follow the te'amim when in doubt as to where to place commas and periods, or how to understand the logic of the text if multiple translations are possible (even if not reflected in commas and periods in English - oftentimes the case, as the te'amim are so much more detailed than our current system of commas and periods).

That being said, the use of this feature would be mainly to scholars and users with rather advanced Hebrew studies. Most users would never have any use for it (which doesn't mean I don't want the feature!).

Maybe useful for a slightly broader audience would be searching on the vowel point patterns - this is very helpful for searching for word patterns, in a very similar way to how a Morph search is. But sometimes you want to search for a certain Morph pattern within a certain type of Hebrew word (and thus within a certain type of vowel pattern), especially in the field of linguistics. Linguists often discuss vowel patterns when talking about the development of Semitic languages, e.g. when a certain vowel pattern was likely introduced, how it contrasts or compares with the vowel patterns in other Semitic languages, how certain words have multiple vowel patterns for the same morphological form, etc. Being able to search on the vowel patterns, especially when combined with morph patterns, allows you to study this much more easily.

David Paul

Asking whether the te'amim really make a difference is like asking whether a text with commas and periods would be any different from a text without commas and periods.

Your comments clarify this somewhat in my mind, and I suppose there's no harm in giving people an opportunity to search this stuff if they want to, but I think I am going to be extraordinarily slow to accept that this stuff amounts to anything of significance. I have become increasingly cognizant of the fact (in my thinking, at least) that tons of what Bible readers focus on in their "studies" has next to no value in getting at the points YHWH would have us derive from His word. There are a variety of reasons why this is the case, but in general, it is because we give our human curiosity far too much sway and play when we engage Scripture. We feel like we are "doing something" if we can determine what we imagine to be "important factual data" about the text, like when it was written, and what the "situation" was in which it came into being. While I don't insist that nothing of value can come from such labors, I don't think that much of significant value is derived from them. In fact, I think that in some ways more harm than good results. YHWH never says anywhere that we should chase down about 80-90% of what scholars and clergy spend their energy trying to ferret out. Not only, imo, is a great deal of it a wild goose chase, some of it, I fear, is a road runner chase...that leaves the chasers hanging in space for that slight second before the plummet ensues.

MJ. Smith

David Paul, the way I look at it is that anything that leads to a close reading of the text can be used by God as a springboard to what we should hear from the text. The question is less what actions we are performing and more how well we are listening. I'm sure there must be some theological work in Logos I can use to rationalize that this statement is Logos-related ... perhaps reference to some Logos tools I never use because to me they are busy work?

David Paul

The question is less what actions we are performing and more how well we are listening.

I concur with this...and at the same time fear that the busy work you mention is so noisy that the still small voice is never heard in the clatter and hubbub of our close-reading "springboards".

Fr Devin Roza

I have become increasingly cognizant of the fact (in my thinking, at least) that tons of what Bible readers focus on in their "studies" has next to no value in getting at the points YHWH would have us derive from His word. There are a variety of reasons why this is the case, but in general, it is because we give our human curiosity far too much sway and play when we engage Scripture. We feel like we are "doing something" if we can determine what we imagine to be "important factual data" about the text, like when it was written, and what the "situation" was in which it came into being.

I basically agree with you on this - I am convinced the Scripture are there to help us to have a personal relationship with God, and everything that goes along with that. If our study of the Word of God doesn't help us with that, something is wrong. Sometimes that does happen, and it is a real danger, not only in the study of Scripture but really in just about any facet of life.

I also think that this danger doesn't mean we shouldn't study his Word, exegesis, theology, etc, just that we need to keep our eyes and heart focused on Him as we do so... even when studying the te'amim. [:)]

Alex Scott

I also think that this danger doesn't mean we shouldn't study his Word, exegesis, theology, etc, just that we need to keep our eyes and heart focused on Him as we do so... even when studying the te'amim.

Interesting. I periodically have to ask myself, as I just did again this morning, whether I am worshiping God or the Bible. I was wondering this morning, if the written word was taken away from me today, how well would I be hearing the Holy Spirit?

BKMitchell

If your query includes the marks you want to search, they will be matched with the specified sensitivity. Just add [match accents] to your query and it should work.

Does that mean that we can now search for:

(1) every occurrence of the Mereka accent in the Tanakh?

(2) every verse in the Tanakh where the Mereka accent is immediately followed by a Pashta?

(3) every verse in the Tanakh where a Pashta precedes Yetiv?

(4) particular trope clauses like for example if we wanted to common variations of the Ethnachta Clause?

Eli Evans (Logos)

Does that mean that we can now search for:

Sorry, no. The [match accents] search modifier will make it so that any cantillations you've typed on a given word will be matched. It doesn't imply pattern matching against any word, as you've described. We'll have to pursue other features to accomplish that task.

BKMitchell

Thanks for the speed reply! Look forward to hearing any new developments in the future.[:)]

Rick Brannan (Logos)

If your query includes the marks you want to search, they will be matched with the specified sensitivity. Just add [match accents] to your query and it should work.

Does that mean that we can now search for:

(1) every occurrence of the Mereka accent in the Tanakh?

(2) every verse in the Tanakh where the Mereka accent is immediately followed by a Pashta?

(3) every verse in the Tanakh where a Pashta precedes Yetiv?

(4) particular trope clauses like for example if we wanted to common variations of the Ethnachta Clause?

David Paul, I believe the above items (and other searches like them) are now supported with the Lexham Hebrew Bible: Cantillation Analysis dataset and resources. They are presently available for Logos Now members; I'm unsure if they will be available for individual purchase at a future date.

I don't think every sort of search mentioned in this thread is fully supported, but the mixing of accent/cantillation and other data (morph, lemma, etc.) is supported much better than it was though the syntax search database. (I understand accents/cantillations are not directly syntactic, but this was the best available method to implement searchability and visualize the data).

David Paul

Go to know...thanks!

BKMitchell

Please allow searching on Hebrew vowel points, cantillation marks, and patterns/combinations of these using wildcards.

Are wild card searchs on vowels and cantillation marks a possibility now?

And if so how does one go about running these searches?

Brian Leathers

Bump. Please provide the ability to search for vowel point patterns. This would take Hebrew searching to whole new level here in Logos [H]for those of us who were used to it in Accordance.