Fundamentalist Base Package and King James Only Resource Collection
Dear Logos,
Good day! I have noticed a few areas where books that my theological tradition is sympathetic to are not on Logos. I think a lot of these would sell among the thousands and thousands of fundamental Baptists in the USA and the world. I would like to suggest a new base package for fundamentalists. You have a Baptist, Anglican, and even an Adventist collection, but there is more difference between a fundamentalist and modernist Baptist than between a Baptist and a Reformed conservative.
Also, I would like to suggest that you create a King James Only resource collection, featuring works such as:
David Otis Fuller:
Which Bible?
Counterfeit or Genuine?
True or False? The Westcott-Hort Textual Theory Examined
Kent Brandenburg, et. al. Thou Shalt Keep Them: A Biblical Theology of the Perfect Preservation of Scripture
D. A. Waite: Fourfold Superiority of the King James Bible
Thomas Strouse: The Lord God hath spoken (http://www.bbc-cromwell.org/publications.shtml)
The Identity of the New Testament Text, Wilbur Pickering (http://www.walkinhiscommandments.com/pickering3b.htm)
David Cloud:
Answering the Myths on the Bible Version Debate
Bible Version Question & Answer Database, The
Faith vs. The Modern Bible Versions: A Course on Bible Texts and a 10-Fold Defense of the King James Version
For Love of the Bible
Glorious History of the King James Bible, The
Modern Bible Version Hall of Shame, The
Things Hard to be Understood
What About Ruckman?
Why We Hold to the King James Bible
Other books:
Translators Revived, McCure
The King James Version Defended, by Edward F. Hills
The Revision Revised, John Burgon
The Causes of Corruption in the Gospels, John Burgon
The Causes of the Corruption of the Traditional Text, John Burgon
The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, John Burgon
The Integrity of the Greek Vulgate, Frederick Nolan
Logical Criticisms of Textual Criticism, by Gordon Clark
A New Plea for the Authenticity of the Text of the Three Heavenly Witnesses, Charles Forster
The Debate over the Inspiration of the Hebrew Vowel Points
Evidences for the Inspiration of the Hebrew Vowel Points
The Prologue to the Canonical Epistles by Jerome: Ancient Testimony to 1 John 5:7
A Declaration of My Own Position on the Inspiration and Preservation of Holy Scripture
“They Pierced My Hands and My Feet”: the KJV reading of Psalm 22:16
Comments
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Hi K:
You might also be interested in the historical value of the English Bible Collection on Community Pricing:
https://www.logos.com/product/16808/english-bible-collection
We need a boatload of bidders to belly up to the Parbar and join in on this one.
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
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While not something I would be interested in I can understand the appeal to others.... Logos has many resources that would seemingly fit in well to your package.
Reformation Heritage KJV Study Bible Notes
What the Bible Is All About: Bible Handbook, KJV, rev. ed.
*KJV Bible Commentary
*King James Version Study Bible (KJVSB)
Modern English Version (MEV) (Might fit in)
*Daily Bible Reading (4 vols.)
AMG Bible Essentials (unfortunately I was unable to find a Complete WordStudy Bible (KJV) and word study dictionaries without the bundling the NASB and NA 27, obvious items you would not be interested in).
*Barnes' Notes on the Old and New Testaments (26 vols.) (I realize there are numerous good classic commentaries based on the KJV but I have always found this one very good).
-Dan
* are items i do personally own in Logos as well as the KJV WordStudy Bible in other software.
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I suppose that might be a niche market. I've only ever met a handful of KJV only folks, and even fewer from the "only the KJV translation is inspired" movement.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I agree that it would be useful to have these titles in Logos format, but I question whether there is enough here to warrant an entire base package. I would be more sympathetic to them being included in a topical bundle. Perhaps the KJV Bundle, Majority Text Bundle, Textus Receptus Bundle, etc. I could also see a large Textual Criticism package that would contain the types of resources mentioned, but also their counterparts on the opposite end of the spectrum. That might be the way to go, as it would theoretically have the broadest appeal and thus make more money for Faithlife. Regardless of where a person stands, such a package would allow for all sides to be studied.
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As I understand it the desire for a package would be to avoid needing to buy what they see as worthless translations. This package should contain the TR and KJV only. It is not what I would choose but I can understand their desire not to purchase modern items that they consider heretical.... To do so they may need to go to something like OliveTree's
The KJV Anniversary Collection includes:
Bibles- King James Version (KJV) - Its traditional and stunning language has impacted countless people throughout its history.
- King James Version (KJV) with Strong's Numbers - Powerful word studies are at your fingertips with the Strong's numbering tied to the Enhanced Strong's Dictionary.
Study Tools- Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary - Quickly study any passage with this classic commentary.
- Jamieson, Faussett & Brown Commentary (JFB) - This time-honored critical commentary on the whole Bible gives insight to understanding Scripture.
- Nave's Topical Bible Index - Explore over 6,000 topics and over 100,000 Bible verse references.
- Enhanced Strong's Dictionary - An expansion of James Strong's ground-breaking work, this dictionary is linked to the KJV Strong's Bible text.
- Olive Tree KJV Concordance - Both an English and Englishman's concordance, this resource empowers both your word studies and your cross-references.
- Treasury of Scripture Knowledge (TSK) - Let the Bible interpret itself with these indispensable, exhaustive cross references.
Devotionals- Daily Light Devotional - A beloved classic devotional for morning and evening, taken entirely from the Bible.
- Spurgeon's Morning and Evening - Penetrating and touching expositions of Scripture by the "Prince of Preachers."
Something like the above collection is I believe what is being asked for. The trouble is I am not 100% sure you can get get original language tie ins without buying a package.
-Dan
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abondservant said:
I suppose that might be a niche market. I've only ever met a handful of KJV only folks, and even fewer from the "only the KJV translation is inspired" movement.
Dr. Adrian Rogers used the KJV and once said, "I am not KJV only, however, I love the KJV because I think it is not only a good translation but a wonderful piece of literature.
OLD JOKE - a man once said: "if KJV was good enough for Paul and Peter, its good enough for me."
My first Pastor is KJV only. He is a great and faithful man who continues to pastor and preach at 86.
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Would some sort of theology filter (visual filter) do the job? [^o)]
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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He could by the AMG collection and hide NA27 and the NASB, but the point of a collection would be to not have to pay for things he does not want (although I know all of us have many things in our various base packages we do not want, so he may be asking a lot considering that as i pointed out we all have things in our base package we do not want.
-Dan
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KJB1611 said:
I would like to suggest a new base package for fundamentalists.
The Works of Harry Ironside would make a great addition to a Fundamentalist Package/Collection:
https://www.logos.com/product/4557/the-works-of-h-a-ironside
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I wonder if a true fundamentalist would practice separation from Logos because they sell products for liberals and charismatics.
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elnwood said:
I wonder if a true fundamentalist would practice separation from Logos because they sell products for liberals and charismatics.
I suspect that this would be the challenge for Logos, a KJV focused bundle as observed elsewhere might work but creating a package with for a group who reject anything from outside of a narrow position would be a real challenge.
BTW - I recognise one of the Burgon texts in the original post as being in my library, there may be others already included.
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elnwood said:
I wonder if a true fundamentalist would practice separation from Logos because they sell products for liberals and charismatics.
Whereas I wonder about fundamentalist being combined with KJV-only. None of the fundamentalists I have known (and I have known many) were KJV only types.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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All KJV only types of fundamentalists, but not all fundamentalists are KJV only. Actually most is probably more true.MJ. Smith said:elnwood said:I wonder if a true fundamentalist would practice separation from Logos because they sell products for liberals and charismatics.
Whereas I wonder about fundamentalist being combined with KJV-only. None of the fundamentalists I have known (and I have known many) were KJV only types.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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abondservant said:
All KJV only types of fundamentalists, but not all fundamentalists are KJV only. Actually most is probably more true.Are you using "fundamentalist" in the sociological sense or in the sense of The Fundamentals by Torrey?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:abondservant said:
All KJV only types of fundamentalists, but not all fundamentalists are KJV only. Actually most is probably more true.Are you using "fundamentalist" in the sociological sense or in the sense of The Fundamentals by Torrey?
I would say fundamentalist as a self-descriptor, who are characterized by their practice of "biblical separation."
[quote]Most self-described fundamentalist churches today are conservative, separatist Baptist (though often calling themselves “Bible Baptist” or simply “Bible” churches) congregations such as the churches of the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches (GARBC), or the Independent Fundamental Churches of America (IFCA). Institutions associated with this movement would include Bob Jones University (Greenville, SC) and Tennessee Temple (Chattanooga, TN); representative publications would be The Sword of the Lord and The Biblical Evangelist. Concerns over doctrinal purity and issues of “first-degree separation” (the refusal to associate with groups who endorse questionable doctrinal beliefs or moral practices) and “second-degree separation” (refraining from association or identification with groups or individuals who do not practice first-degree separation) have meant that self-identified fundamentalism has been prone to constant disputes and splits.
http://www.wheaton.edu/isae/defining-evangelicalism/fundamentalism
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I should have been more clear--I was making TWO suggestions, one for a KJV-only collection, and one for a fundamentalist base package. They were two separate suggestions. Additional titles for a KJV-only base package would be:
Herman Hoskier, Codex B and its Allies
Ditto, Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse
Basically, if it is in the Bible for Today bookstore and it relates to textual studies, it would be worth including here (http://www.biblefortoday.org/)
A book Logos already publishes that would be worth including is Richard Muller's Post Reformation Reformed Dogmatics vol . 2, since the Textus Receptus was THE text of Reformation and post-Reformation-era believers and their confessions of faith.
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A fundamentalist base package would not just include KJV-only writers, but would include everyone from parachurch schools such as Bob Jones University to Landmark Baptist writers such as J. R. Graves to the Presbyterian founders of Westminster Seminary such as J. Machen and O. T. Allis to works from Detroit Baptist Seminary such as the 3 volume systematic theology by Rolland McCune to works by Brethren writers to works by men like Chafer and Moody, as well as histories of fundamentalism both by writers like Beale and Dollar who were themselves fundamentalists and those who were non-fundamentalists, such as George Marsden. Even fundamentalist Anglicans such as George Sayles Bishop, who contributed to The Fundamentals edited by Torrey (and who was himself both an advocate of dictation inspiration, KJV-only, and an advocate of the inspiration of the Hebrew vowel points) could be included.
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In response to some of the comments above:
Mr. Warren, thanks for the suggestion. I think I have already bid on it!
Mr. Francis, Thanks. Some of those people are not KJV-only (e. g., Barnes), and none of the works deal with textual questions.
abondservant, certainly it is a niche market, just like an SDA base package or just about any other Logos collection. However, it is quite a big niche. I can probably give you a very substantial number of seminaries, colleges, and/or Bible Institutes that are KJV-only, with thousands and thousands and thousands of graduates.
Integ, great suggestion--Ironside would definitely be good in there.
Elnwood, a fundamentalist would not have the people in the SDA, Roman Catholic, etc. products sold by Logos preach in their churches. Biblical separation means not engaging in common ministry, not refusing to read a book or use a tool written by someone with theological error. Fundamentalists use lexica written by theological modernists such as BDB without violating their (Biblical) convictions on separation. Thanks.
Of course, books on separation such as Pickering's Biblical Separation or Brandenburg's A Pure Church should be included in a fundamentalist base package.
Thanks all.
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The KJV only group is one group faithlife shouldn't waste their time on, because at the end of the day they can care less what the original Greek and Hebrew says. The KJV is the final authority over the original Greek and Hebrew to them. I honestly don't think they would sell a lot of bundles to this crowd.
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From memory one of the reasons that Logos introduced the "tradition" focused collections was the criticism that the standard base packages were too fundamentalist/evangelical in content.
Would definitely like to see more of Burgon as he is badly misquoted by so many and so being able to read him in context would be of real value. Shame with Burgon is that he did not write more.
Thinking a bit more about a KJV Only collection I think most of us would prefer something that covered both sides of the debate accompanied by some training videos on using the New Testament Manuscript Explorer to examine the evidence for ourselves.
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Xegesis,
we are in the Suggestions forum here. There is a longstanding practice here to not belittle or criticise those suggestions - Faithlife will anyway decide independently upon whether it's worthwile to go after the suggested things or not. But in the best interest of all users and Faithlife, the forums are a place for nice conversation among many groups who hold different presupposations regarding 'authority' and many other things.
I think it's encouraging that someone from within the group comes here to ask for such resources, which might help them in their bible study. Doing such with Logos may help some to see beyond the edge of their self-drawn circle - and it may help others to be better students, pastors, teachers, elders, parents within the circle.
To put material together (probably in a "library builder bundle" first rather than a real base package) wouldn't hurt Faithlife, and such material might be of wider interest anyway.
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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{boldface emphasis mine} I disagree. This popular saying is more accurate,, "The King James Bible is God's word for the English-speaking peoples." The King James only churches recognize foreign language translations to be useful and have been known to refer to the Hebrew and Greek for word studies.Xegesis said:The KJV only group is one group faithlife shouldn't waste their time on as the KJV only crowd can care less what the original Greek and Hebrew says. The KJV is the final authority over the original Greek and Hebrew to them. I honestly don't think they would sell a lot of bundles.
I belong to an IFB KJB-only church and I have 22,770+ resources that include
Logos 6: Collector's Edition, Master Bundle, XL, Reformed Portfolio, Baptist Diamond, Anglican Diamond, Lutheran Platinum, Pentecostal & Charismatic Silver .
Logos 5: Verbum Capstone, SDA Silver
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Xegesis said:
The KJV only group is one group faithlife shouldn't waste their time on, because at the end of the day they can care less what the original Greek and Hebrew says. The KJV is the final authority over the original Greek and Hebrew to them. I honestly don't think they would sell a lot of bundles to this crowd.
They care what the original text was - they just think that the 9 used by the translators of the KJV were a better pick then the few that the Textual Critics [from the KJV only view] worship.
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Graham Owen said:
Thinking a bit more about a KJV Only collection I think most of us would prefer something that covered both sides of the debate accompanied by some training videos on using the New Testament Manuscript Explorer to examine the evidence for ourselves.
I am not sure that would be considered acceptable as a package by the person who requested it. I suggested barnes for example because on the 1 John coda Barnes mentions the problems with it and offers theories for and against it. I included it as a possible commentary and apparently for him Barnes would not be acceptable. I am not trying to be overly critical of his desire, but I am not sure the best things in Logos library to include in such a package. Because generally Logos base packages start out at $300 and contain around 200 resources. Logos has stated on several occasions they have no desire to have a cheaper stater package. Therefore to get a KJV only package set up you need to have a significant number of resources if we are to include only very pro TR only resources that defend the integrity and wording I am not sure 200 resources will be found and if a large number of the resources are not already in Logos there becomes an issue. Looking at John Gill's treatment of the coda he may be an acceptable one but if Logos needs to add in mostly new it will likely require thousands of preorders before it will ever be made. We have strong KJV users like SuperTramp who have a broad selection of resources and he and others like him may be able to flesh out an acceptable collection. The question then ends up will Logos create it, I hope thy do for the users desiring it, but generally a base package is only created when a significant number of required resources are already in Logos.
-Dan
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I agree with KJB1611. I would also add the works of Edward F. Hills and Everett and Peter Van Kleek.
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Everett Fowler to be exact...sorry about that.[:O]
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Thanks Mick, my goal was only to assist faithlife in case they were wondering if it was worth investing their resources in building this package. It is from 20 years experience of being in IFB KJV Only Churches. My wife's church phone number was 1-800-KJV-ONLY. I'm very familiar with how MANY(not all) in this group approach things. For many it's, "All I need is my KJV Bible". That is why I don't see this being worth the time for faithlife to invest in. However ,while I now disagree with the IFB KJV Only movement, I do respect and appreciate them for believing that God's word is the final authority for their life and I consider most my brother and sister in Christ.
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Watch Steven Anderson's interview of James White and you will see examples of a KJV Only individual who refused to believe the original language over his KJV Bible. That's an example of what I meant by the KJV being the Final Authority.
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I know a solid group of colleges and churches that would be interested in this package. I would probably pick of the package myself since I'll probably be teaching in one that would make use of this collection. It would also need access to these two resources:
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/113439.aspx
Additionally, TBS has a set of journals and resources in general that would enhance this package for sure, so Faithlife/Logos would want to collaborate with them on it. Collaboration with PCC/A Beka Book for this package would be good as well.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Xegesis said:
Watch Steven Anderson's interview of James White and you will see examples of a KJV Only individual who refused to believe the original language over his KJV Bible. That's an example of what I meant by the KJV being the Final Authority.
Do you have any idea what exact manuscript or text was under discussion? If they were rejecting the NU text that is to be understood as they are TR text people and they see the NU as corrupt [[N as in Nestle-Aland and U as in United Bible Society]]
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