Payment Plans and you

I have been debt free for almost six years and I have no plan to go back in debt for anything, even something small like a payment plan for Logos. I always want to add more resources, but I learn patience and contentment by saving my money and buying what I can afford. I think it is a wise move for a business to get it's payments on credit under control. 

Dan Francis said:

I found myself asking do I get Anglican Portfolio right away.

I was planning on taking advantage of the base package sale that ends Dec 31.  These were in my list:

Anglican Portfolio
Orthodox Platinum
SDA Platinum
Verbum Capstone

I may have to pass on them.

This does have me contemplating a purchase of Collectors edition, but I havent heard back from either of sales guys I've used. Neither Rusty nor Mark.

Might well make a big purchase as there will likely be quite a new-title drought until my plan is paid off.

Sakarias Ingolfsson said:

There is one thing that I can not quite make sense of (based on this discussion). Is the 25% downpayment only a requirement when you add something to an existing plan, or is it a requirement for new plans as well?

I can't really say. I never got the email.

Bob Pritchett said:

This is a small inconvenience that bank loans and cash management can handle -- if it represents a fraction of your sales (which it did for us, for many years). Now it's grown to the point that we need to tweak the parameters for new purchases.

Please continue to provide feedback, and we'll continue tweaking the program, just as we've been doing all along. Payment plans started with many more limitations / a shorter time frame / etc. We loosened that up, responding to the market, and now we're just tightening it up for the same reason. We'll continue to tune the parameters to find a balance that works for you while allowing us to pay the bills -- because we can't promise the power company or rights holders or employees or the IRS to just wait a year to get paid! :-)

Believe it or not, Bob, I understand your point of view. Flash cash is the way to go. Cash payment is the way for all to benefit:  It helps the users to live within their means and Faithlife will receive its needed cash. 

Bob, you have a business to run and a legacy to carry on. This is a new day. You can only do about so much. All reasonable users of Logos can understand that. As long as you provide truth in advertisement, service after the sale, and a good product at fair price (check this one [:D]), you can boldly ask those who owe, to pay up. No, you didn't ask me to say what I said, its just the truth. Take care of business!

Sakarias Ingolfsson said:

Is the 25% downpayment only a requirement when you add something to an existing plan, or is it a requirement for new plans as well?

The email isn't clear, but my reading of both the email and Bob's comments suggest that it's for when you add something to an existing plan.

The exact phrase in my email is "Starting on Monday, in order to add resources to a payment plan we will need to charge 25% of the new order total."

It would be 100% clear if it said "an existing payment plan", which unfortunately it doesn't. However, I the fact that it says "new order", and not just "order" , and the fact it says "add resources to a payment plan", rather than "buy resources on a payment plan" tips the balance in favour of the down payment only being required for existing plans.

Michael Childs said:

Dan Francis said:

Michael Childs said:

If the new policy works to FL's financial advantage and strengthens the company, well and good.  It will continue.  And in the long run, we benefit from a stronger FL company.

If the new policy hurts sells to the point that it is counterproductive to FL, then the policy will be modified or dropped.

I found myself asking do I get Anglican Portfolio right away. The changes would have meant a delay of a few months before purchasing it. Not the end of the world. I will admit with a bigger initial outlay it will have me think twice... That said it is not a bad thing. The people like myself who add onto existing plans may well be the biggest problem, but I do feel for people who suddenly rather than going with GOLD decide BRONZE is all they can afford at this time because it is a 25% down... That said I do understand the reasoning behind this move fully and in the end may create better levels of stewardship for both people and Faithlife. 

-Dan

  There must have been some kind of failure to understand between FL sales and the company in general.  Nearly every time I added a product to an existing payment plan, it was because a sales rep emailed me (repeatedly) with offers to do so.  And it was a big help to me personally.  But from Bob's statements, it seems like different departments in company were working at cross purposes.  In other words, I do not feel like we were the problem.

In fact, I received such emails just last week, which I replied to and declined their kind offer.

I find them helpful as well. I don't always say yes, but I've said yes more than no. as a last hurrah, I added Lutheran Platinum, the methodist library builder and the sermon finder collection. But I suspect I won't be adding anything else for a while.

Bob, two questions:

1. How does this work if I have a Logos credit that equals the 25% purchase price? Could I use that or would I still have to pay it out of my own funds?

2. Does the 25% have to be paid on the day you make the order, or is it just the first payment the following month?

Cynthia Tucker said:

Bob, two questions:

1. How does this work if I have a Logos credit that equals the 25% purchase price? Could I use that or would I still have to pay it out of my own funds?

2. Does the 25% have to be paid on the day you make the order, or is it just the first payment the following month?

Hopefully Bob will answer but I am quite sure I saw Dan P. say the Logos that credit could be used as he stated the Logos Book Cache could be built up to pay for the 25%. My understanding is the 25% is required when the item is purchased, that said I could be wrong and Bob or someone will hopefully clarify for you.

-Dan

NB.Mick said:

David Taylor Jr said:

For the record, it has bothered me that several users have talked about living within means. Being on a payment plan does not mean that you are not living within your means. Using credit does not mean you are not living within your means.

Now, if you abuse those things then yes, you aren't living within your means. But if you budget out and know what you can reasonably accommodate, that IS living within your means.

I have done payment plans before because of my school. There are commentaries where it was cheaper to get a base package on a payment plan than to buy individual items necessary for the class.  That is being a good steward

Great comment!

The other thing I thought about is this whole idea of a constant, predictable revenue stream that would work better for Faithlife than revenue spikes when large new things are released and draught periods in between. A widescale adoption of payment plans will be exactly that. "How do we pay the monthly charges for our servers, and the employee's salaries in January?" will not be answered with "Dunno, let's see how the Christmas Sale works" but with "Stay cool, all of that cash will come in through payment plans, as always". Maybe the negotiations with the publishers should include a discussion about when Faithlife has to pay them royalties when the books sold are sold on a payment plan.   

Both FL and I have benefitted by their credit offerings. I don't mind the $5 month fee at all...happy to pay it. I know for a fact that I wouldn't be a Collector's Edition owner without it. Same goes for about 80% of my current library. As others have said, this will cause my new purchases to grind to practically zero. That's thousands of dollars I would have spent that won't get spent at all. I clearly agree with David's comments.

I also agree fully with NB.Nick...Logos may need to play hardball with the publishers. I suggest that FL draw deliberate attention to the coming precipitous nose dive in revenue that the publishers will experience at the end of the next couple of quarters as an impetus to renegotiate the payment system they have arranged with FL. For systems to mesh without tearing each other apart, they have to be geared similarly. Right now, it is the publishers whose expectations are causing harmonic distortion to the system. The changes Bob has implemented will solve a subset of problems going forward, but I suspect it will generate a far worse problem as a consequence...a drastic drop in sales. If the publishers are the mindless bureaucrats I take them for, then that will likely be the way of the world for the forseeable future. But maybe, just maybe, some quick-thinking number crunchers in the bowels of these monstrous publishing beasts will soon realize that the cascading stream of Logos revenue just tanked hard and begin to wonder if there is something that can be done to revive it. Making adjustments to their payment schedules is the only thing that will solve that problem, from what I can see. Allowing a 50% distribution over two quarters would solve this problem or at least reduce the issue considerably. FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED, I STRONGLY URGE LOGOS TO PURSUE THIS COURSE OF ACTION.

Hopefully, something closer to the way things were until recently can be restored. Otherwise, my $35-40K to this point is all she wrote. That sound you hear rising in the distance is the fat lady's aria. Hopefully, the publishers will see fit to give her a severe case of laryngitis. Sadly, I have my doubts.

Could someone explain to me is this just the Case if I put Recources to a runnig Payment Plan? So if I have a Payment Plan running for 27 Month and put a new Book to it I have to pay 25% of the Price of the new Book.

Or is it for every ne Payment Plan?

With my Budget...and my Wifes Wisdom ;-) it's the Rule first pay the Payment Plan off and after this you could have a new Payment Plan.

In the Time till then, you can pay with Credits or extra Money.

Greetings

Sascha

Who also dit'nt know why you should put Prepubs to Payment Plans

I have to think if I was in Bob's seat seeing the growing income every month coming in from Logos Now and subscription-based transactions, it would make the purchase-transactions model still welcome but less palatable for multiple reasons - evening out cash flow (explained to us at the intro of Logos Now), and needing to manage the somewhat hidden but possibly substantial expense of deferred money payments on purchases (explained to us in this thread). I imagine people live within their means a little better too on subscription model vs. buy/pay over time. 

Dan Pritchett said:

Michael Childs said:

Large purchases will have to slow down and be delayed until the 25% down payment  can be saved. 

Many book lovers that discover they're spending the same book budget amount on Logos books each year will find that using Logos Book Cache is the answer, to not only the Pre-Pub problem of having cash up front, but will also find it solves this 25% down payment issue as well.

The added bonus to using Logos Book Cache is that they are saving the $5/mo. payment plan fee every month.

It won't solve everyone's issues, but for those who aren't sure what they will buy in the future, but know they are going to spend a set amount, they can start a Logos Book Cache subscription now, avoid the $5/mo. payment plan fee and be well ahead of the game when they find the next title they want.

https://www.logos.com/book-cache

A better practice would be to put it in the bank in a savings account or invest it in any other way (which I am sure is what Logos does with the money you deposit).

Bob Pritchett said:

In a perfect world, we'd share with them on a pure 'percentage of revenue' model, which would let us sell more products by subscription, rent-to-own, payment plans, and other models. But they have their own contracts, some of which date back decades, with authors, and are understandably reluctant to go renegotiate terms. And the scale just gets huge: we have more than 500 rights holders we have contracts with (that's a lot of phone calls to make and explanations to walk through!) and they represent more than 60,000 different books (almost each of which has its own contract).

As perceived (with much prayer and new eyes) your timely response to questions and inquiries are greatly appreciated. Improvement of communications could only help customers to understand better-- changes and accept what must be, for the benefit of all. Thank you, Bob. 

Michael Childs said:

Dan said, "Many book lovers that discover they're spending the same book budget amount on Logos books each year will find that using Logos Book Cache is the answer, to not only the Pre-Pub problem of having cash up front, but will also find it solves this 25% down payment issue as well."

I certainly think Dan has a good suggestion in using Logos cache, or as someone else suggested, save up in the bank and draw a bit of interest.

However, regardless of how one saves up the 25%, one still will have to take time to save.  There will be a slowdown in the pace of sales due to taking time to save the 25%  Of course, that slowdown will hopefully more than be offset by the increase in the pace of payment.  Only time will show if decreasing the rate of sales, but increasing the pace of payment by requiring 25% up front will ultimately increase or decrease the income for Faithlife / Logos.

I am sure Logos has weighed these things in their decision, but things do not always work out in real life as the do on paper.  I suspect some sales will be lost in the time to raise the 25%. 

For example, I just recently made a large Logos purchase (large for me) of the "Father's of the Church" series.  I am delighted that I did, but I would have never made the purchase if I had to put 25% down.  Perhaps that would have been better for Logos / Faithlife as I am now making a low payment each month that causes me no stress, but delays FL getting their money.

There may not be many others in my position, but I suspect there are.

A slowdown in current sales, perhaps, but as those sales would not have resulted in current revenues, Faithlife will not likely experience any reduction in revenues. However, they will experience a reduction in payments to publishers. In the net, little to no change in current income and a measurable reduction in outgo.

Don said:

https://www.logos.com/product/33666/book-cache-monthly-subscription 

I was slightly hesitant to add this in till my current payment plan was through but decided that It was a good thing to start up a small monthly charge to save up for possible larger purchases. Thank you for the link.

-Dan

So...we need an official response, please! If we add anything else to a 27 month plan: will the plan shrink to 12 months? If so, what's the rationale behind it? (since we're already required to give a 25% down). Thanks Bro. Bob or Dan for the official response on this payment plan shrinking issue

DAL

I never received the dreaded email either. Time to add a chapter on effective communication to that "Start Next Now" book...LOL ✍😜😇

DAL

Charles McNeil said:

Disciple of Christ (doc) said:

Still have not received an email about this....as usual Logos dribbles out half baked information to some users and not others who only find out about this stuff if they happen to stumble upon it on the forums.  Can we please get this properly communicated to all users currently on a payment plan and not just to some.  I don't' think that is too much too ask. 

This is one of Faithlife's short comings. I hope they will improve in this area sooner rather than later. There should be a thread or a message directly from Bob or his appointed spokesperson to all Logos users of official changes or adjustments.  Communication is the key to any relationship. Failure to communicate leads to misunderstand. In Faithlife situation, a lack of communications can lead to a lost of business and sales. 

Most of these changes I can understand why they need to be implemented from a business perspective. There is one change however that I fail to see a sensible explanation for that Glenn has made above;

Glenn Airoldi said:

Pay the remaining combined balance over the months allowed, based on the size of your purchase. Note:  If the length of your existing plan is greater than 12 months, the length of your new combined plan will be either the number of months allowed with your new purchase, or 12 months, whichever is greater.

Can you tell me why my 27 month plan will be cut down to 12 months for adding something to my plan? This has forced me to cancel all of my pre-orders. Really I am so annoyed beyond description about the fact I received no email or notification about this and now I have to miss out on the long awaited TDOT @ $399 pre-pub price. Do you want to know how I found out about these changes?

Me: Hi, I'd like to add Church Dogmatics to my payment plan.

Sales Rep: Sorry, we have made changes to our payment plans now. You need to pay 25% up front and your existing plan will be cut down to 12 months.

Really you guys could have at least made this effective as of 1st of Jan 2016 or something. I will have to skip on all Christmas/Black Friday specials now too.

James said:

Can you tell me why my 27 month plan will be cut down to 12 months for adding something to my plan? This has forced me to cancel all of my pre-orders.

You can add a second plan. That second plan will not affect your old one.

Glenn Airoldi said:

All new orders placed using our Payment Plan program will require a minimum downpayment: 25% of the order total or $500, whichever is less.

I think that that $500.00 USD cap is really important and a very good thing for you and your customers.