Bob, the new rules are forcing me to cancel my Pre-pubs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782437#Comment_782437

Why in the world would a 27 month payment plan be reduced to 12 month just because you added something? That's preposterous! It's already bad as it is to have to face a 25% down payment ( which is understandable to a certain extent) but to Bring a 27 month payment plan to 12 you're just asking for trouble doing that. Not a wise move! I don't think your sales rep knows what he/she was talking about. I would definitely doublecheck on that.

DAL

To be fair, I think I would be able to start a different payment plan if I chose to, which would leave the original as is, but then I guess I would be paying a separate $5 a month charge.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782439#Comment_782439

I canceled my TDOT too.... and if it is true that all payment plans must be shrunk down to 12 months if anything is added that means even if I have the 25% to put down, which I might have swung for TDOT I could not have handled more than doubling my payment by going to 12 payments. I am now very glad i didn't even attempt to try to do it now. I had decided there were enough small works coming up that I didn't wish to add the extra $100 to December.

-Dan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782438#Comment_782438

You do have an expensive hobby, my friend.

I used Logos while I was in seminary, and I currently use it for research in teaching in biblical studies, which I teach in the second largest public school district in the state. I also teach at church. I don't just collect books for the fun of it, so I didn't mean to come off that way; however, in all fairness, even if I did, I don't know that it would change anything. It's not quite as expensive as collecting exotic cars.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782443#Comment_782443

Ignorance is bliss! I didn't know that pre-pubs could be added to a payment plan. I thought they were always an immediate one time payment. I probably missed some things I could have swung, but I'm accidentally feeling no pain now.

Fasil

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782446#Comment_782446

Ignorance is bliss! I didn't know that pre-pubs could be added to a payment plan. I thought they were always an immediate one time payment. I probably missed some things I could have swung, but I'm accidentally feeling no pain now.

The same here . I never knew you could put pre-pubs on payment plan.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782456#Comment_782456

The same here . I never knew you could put pre-pubs on payment plan.

I had killed off several orders at once as they were coming up because I couldn't afford them... I was contacted by a sales associate to ask me if I would like to have them on a payment plan and I said yes... from then on I have added really big items onto my payment plan keeping the payments about the same price. I have not bought hundreds of items this way but I have got a few dozen items... including at least once when I was emailed saying theses wish list items could be added on.

-Dan

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782446#Comment_782446

I'm accidentally feeling no pain now.

[:)]

Glenn Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782446#Comment_782446

Ignorance is bliss! I didn't know that pre-pubs could be added to a payment plan. I thought they were always an immediate one time payment. I probably missed some things I could have swung, but I'm accidentally feeling no pain now.

Same here [:)]

HJ. van der Wal

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782479#Comment_782479

Ignorance is bliss! I didn't know that pre-pubs could be added to a payment plan. I thought they were always an immediate one time payment. I probably missed some things I could have swung, but I'm accidentally feeling no pain now.

+3 Smile

Whyndell Grizzard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782482#Comment_782482

I have been deleting Prepub items for months due to cost- and not wanting to keep payment plans going. When I finish paying off my current plan- no more, and looks like my purchases will be dropping to almost nothing given the price of resources.

Keep your dead tree library- I only got rid of books I did not need or want- and look for used books, one good resource, pastors who have passed away, their spouses are usually looking to liquidate their libraries if thy have not donated them to a local church.

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782446#Comment_782446

Ignorance is bliss! I didn't know that pre-pubs could be added to a payment plan. I thought they were always an immediate one time payment. I probably missed some things I could have swung, but I'm accidentally feeling no pain now.

technically they don't allow you to do that but sometimes depending on the amount they can make exceptions. But with this new payment plan policy, I'm sorry but I wouldn't take advantage of any prepub if that means my current payment plan will get shrunk to 12 months. That's stupid!

DAL

Mark Barnes

I understand this difficulty, and have similar concerns.

But I must admit that I have often felt that the current system wasn't sustainable.

Imagine a scenario that someone had a 12 month payment plan for $500/month. They then bought an additional $500 resource, and added it to the payment plan and extended the payment plan for an extra month. (I did this sort of thing quite often.) In practical terms, I was effectively getting a "buy now, pay in 12 months" deal, which cost me just $5 (or 1%). If I'd have put in on my credit card, it would have cost me around $90 to defer payment for 12 months. I'm not at all surprised that scenario (which I'm sure lots of us where using), needed to change.

But I don't know whether it needs to change as drastically as it is going to do.

If I was going to suggest a change in the policy it would be that the 25% down payment wouldn't be required if we were only adding to our payment plan, and not extending it. I would also think it reasonable to add a $5 admin fee to add something to a payment plan. That would bring income forward in the way that Bob wants, and stop payment plans getting longer and longer, and raise a very small amount of additional income to cover the expense of recalculating the plan.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782499#Comment_782499

I understand this difficulty, and have similar concerns.

But I must admit that I have often felt that the current system wasn't sustainable.

Imagine a scenario that someone had a 12 month payment plan for $500/month. They then bought an additional $500 resource, and added it to the payment plan and extended the payment plan for an extra month. (I did this sort of thing quite often.) In practical terms, I was effectively getting a "buy now, pay in 12 months" deal, which cost me just $5 (or 1%). If I'd have put in on my credit card, it would have cost me around $90 to defer payment for 12 months. I'm not at all surprised that scenario (which I'm sure lots of us where using), needed to change.

But I don't know whether it needs to change as drastically as it is going to do.

If I was going to suggest a change in the policy it would be that the 25% down payment wouldn't be required if we were only adding to our payment plan, and not extending it. I would also think it reasonable to add a $5 admin fee to add something to a payment plan. That would bring income forward in the way that Bob wants, and stop payment plans getting longer and longer, and raise a very small amount of additional income to cover the expense of recalculating the plan.

I agree that it would have been better to make the way users are currently using the system to work better for Logos as opposed to completely changing the system in such a way that can only result in fewer purchases.

Again, and I'm not being sarcastic, I am terrible at accounting, but it seems to me that $1000 over 12-24 months is better than $0, and it seems like the new rules are going to see this play out over and over again. That's what I am caught up on. I'm also going to be very unhappy if the rules change back after I have to cancel pre-pubs. I will take a screenshot of my pre-pubs before I delete them just in case.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782503#Comment_782503

it seems to me that $1000 over 12-24 months is better than $0

There is another model in addition to Book Cache - Logos Cloud. For a small payment every month a user will receive many more books. As shocking as this model was to many of us 6 months or so ago, to exchange a payment plan that for some may practically extend into perpetuity, for a subscription plan that also may extend into perpetuity yet offer many more resources and features is not such a nonsensical idea. People are exploding because they may not be getting the value they used to get out of a $100 a month payment plan, users who are more than willing to add 5 months or more on the end of their plan with each new purchase, yet for $99 a month they get just about everything. And the difference between "owning" it and "not owning it" is a semantic one when in practicality the monthly payment won't end in either case (for some this is true, not for all all).

Logos Cloud is not on par feature-wise with desktop version yet I don't think, but it will get there, I assume. I wonder if the Cloud model comes to the desktop one day?

Rokas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782508#Comment_782508

Logos Cloud is not on par feature-wise with desktop version yet I don't think, but it will get there, I assume. I wonder if the Cloud model comes to the desktop one day?

You can run Cloud on desktop, with all features

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782508#Comment_782508

People are exploding because they may not be getting the value they used to get out of a $100 a month payment plan, users who are more than willing to add 5 months or more on the end of their plan with each new purchase, yet for $99 a month they get just about everything.

It's nowhere near everything. Even the best Logos Cloud deal comes way short of what I have in my library, and what's missing is often the best of what I own.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782503#Comment_782503

I am terrible at accounting, but it seems to me that $1000 over 12-24 months is better than $0

See Bob's example of why it's worse (during the first 6-12 months) here: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/118786/779521.aspx#779521

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782533#Comment_782533

I am terrible at accounting, but it seems to me that $1000 over 12-24 months is better than $0

See Bob's example of why it's worse (during the first 6-12 months) here: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/118786/779521.aspx#779521

I understand Bob's explanation and agree something must be done. But I do think this course of action will result in a huge hit to sales and the Pre-Pub program. How many big ticket items will be sold at retail? Not many.

Bob Pritchett

I love this software, and I love purchasing books for it. ... I don't believe that Bob or the company is trying to "get" anyone, and I have personally experienced Bob's willingness to make the customer happy, even when there was not a simple solution and he was under no obligation. I just think that there has to be a better way forward. This changes everything for me.

I'm sorry we're messing up your plans to build your library. We'll continue to review and tweak the models to find the right balance of cash flow and top-line sales, and I appreciate your providing this feedback. I hate to hear that anyone can't make the purchases that would be useful to them, and of course I hate to see sales decline... we're just trying to do what we need to in order to be here for you for many years. If a big portion of our top-line sales are only happening because they're effectively being bought a year or two in advance, that's really just deceiving ourselves about what our market/customers can afford, so, as painful as it is, we may need to factor that into our plans.

We'll continue to try and find ways to make the content more accessible. I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782484#Comment_782484

Keep your dead tree library

I've been saying that for years, including here on the forums, but not many seem to agree.

(This has little to do with Logos or FL, BTW.)

I'll say it again: those who dump their paper libraries will live to regret it, one way or another.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782559#Comment_782559

that's really just deceiving ourselves about what our market/customers can afford

That's one of the most sensible (and morally correct, in my opinion and my opinion only) things that I've heard said in a while.

Matt Hamrick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782559#Comment_782559

If a big portion of our top-line sales are only happening because they're effectively being bought a year or two in advance, that's really just deceiving ourselves about what our market/customers can afford, so, as painful as it is, we may need to factor that into our plans.

That's just the point Bob. Maybe I am deceiving myself but I did get some high cost products that I couldn't afford at the time so added them to my payment plan to pay over time. There are other high cost items coming up and I would have added those to my payment plan. But now, even my payment plan is something I will not be able to afford with the new changes. I am grateful the payment plan was there to buy these products, but in the future I cannot buy high cost resources nor upgrade base packages.

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782562#Comment_782562

Bob what about the PayPal Bill Me Later option?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782533#Comment_782533

I am terrible at accounting, but it seems to me that $1000 over 12-24 months is better than $0

See Bob's example of why it's worse (during the first 6-12 months) here: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/118786/779521.aspx#779521

Yeah, but I don't know that I agree with the argument. If we were starting right now from scratch, then that might be a problem, but since there are so many people on payment plans, there should be enough money coming in every month to cover the upfront costs going to publishers for any knew addition by any given customer. Once my upfront cost is covered, I am helping to cover costs for those who start a new payment plan, or add something new to a plan. Payment plans should be generating a guaranteed monthly income for the company.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782559#Comment_782559

We'll continue to try and find ways to make the content more accessible.

Here is a way. January 1st offer all resources (everything) in Logos Cloud for $99 per month and abandon selling to us prefer-to-own customers. That seems to be the direction you are going.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782573#Comment_782573

It does seem strange to me that customers are creating a drag on the system if they purchase resources on a payment plan, yet we have the option to pay only $99, which is considerably less than what I pay on my payment plan, to get a Collector's Edition style library. I know there are different contracts or whatever, but that sure does seem like a lot of resources that got quick permission to be offered in such a way.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782571#Comment_782571

Yeah, but I don't know that I agree with the argument. If we were starting right now from scratch, then that might be a problem, but since there are so many people on payment plans, there should be enough money coming in every month to cover the upfront costs going to publishers for any knew addition by any given customer. Once my upfront cost is covered, I am helping to cover costs for those who start a new payment plan, or add something new to a plan. Payment plans should be generating a guaranteed monthly income for the company.

I follow your reasoning. But what if a bunch of people default on their payments?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782576#Comment_782576

Yeah, but I don't know that I agree with the argument. If we were starting right now from scratch, then that might be a problem, but since there are so many people on payment plans, there should be enough money coming in every month to cover the upfront costs going to publishers for any knew addition by any given customer. Once my upfront cost is covered, I am helping to cover costs for those who start a new payment plan, or add something new to a plan. Payment plans should be generating a guaranteed monthly income for the company.

I follow your reasoning. But what if a bunch of people default on their payments?

Wouldnt any default on the payment result in the licence being removed? That is my understanding anyhow.

Dan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782578#Comment_782578

Wouldnt any default on the payment result in the licence being removed? That is my understanding anyhow.

That is also my understanding but the result for Faithlife would be a cash flow crunch.

Dustin Pearson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782578#Comment_782578

Yeah, but I don't know that I agree with the argument. If we were starting right now from scratch, then that might be a problem, but since there are so many people on payment plans, there should be enough money coming in every month to cover the upfront costs going to publishers for any knew addition by any given customer. Once my upfront cost is covered, I am helping to cover costs for those who start a new payment plan, or add something new to a plan. Payment plans should be generating a guaranteed monthly income for the company.

I follow your reasoning. But what if a bunch of people default on their payments?

Wouldnt any default on the payment result in the licence being removed? That is my understanding anyhow.

Dan

well sure, but the problem is FL has already paid the fees to the publisher...so even though the resource is unavailable to the user, there is a direct cost loss that I doubt FL can get back. Could be wrong, but from what I have read so far I would say no.

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782575#Comment_782575

It does seem strange to me that customers are creating a drag on the system if they purchase resources on a payment plan, yet we have the option to pay only $99, which is considerably less than what I pay on my payment plan, to get a Collector's Edition style library. I know there are different contracts or whatever, but that sure does seem like a lot of resources that got quick permission to be offered in such a way.

Are you referring to Logos Cloud? If so, most of that is public domain and Faithlife produced material (plus a few other publishers). Many publishers have not wanted to jump on board so far.

I am quite certain the 'rental' royalties are calculated differently than the purchase royalties and Faithlife is collecting those rental royalties every month. Maybe I am missing your point.

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782590#Comment_782590

The only thing I'd insert into this discussion is that it might have been good for Faithlife to have given more advance notice of the policy change (2-3 months would have been good considering the fallout). That said, Bob's explanation is quite clear and I understand the need for the change.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782592#Comment_782592

The only thing I'd insert into this discussion is that it might have been good for Faithlife to have given more advance notice of the policy change (2-3 months would have been good considering the fallout). That said, Bob's explanation is quite clear and I understand the need for the change.

Yes it would have been nice if it could have been implemented in the new year, but no matter when someone would be upset. The only real difference I can see is that I would have likely added TDOT on but it is not the end of the world for me. And with the small amount of warning there was I was able to get the one item I knew i did want to add in the spring... Anglican Portfolio. Small items come up in prepub I will get them... large ones will end up in my wish list, this is not a tragedy and Faithlife has 100% to run their business as they see fit. I have more issue with payment plans needing to be shrunk down to 12 months than I have with the 25% up front policy, but again this is fully something that FL felt they needed to do and they know their business better than I do I am quite sure.

-Dan

Erik

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782592#Comment_782592

The only thing I'd insert into this discussion is that it might have been good for Faithlife to have given more advance notice of the policy change (2-3 months would have been good considering the fallout). That said, Bob's explanation is quite clear and I understand the need for the change.

Agreed.

I had been holding off for the past 5 months from adding anything to my payment plan so I could roll it up on Black Friday. I guess I'll be spending elsewhere this year and cutting back; which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

If we'd be given some reasonable notice (and I still haven't received the email by the way), I would have adjusted my end of year finances accordingly to account for the 25% down. However, if it is true that longer payment plans are being forced to convert to 12 months, I am done with larger purchases. I have no interest in managing multiple payment plans either.

Alex Scott

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782436#Comment_782436

Rusty (whose?)

Probably Logos' if anyone's

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/782619#Comment_782619

Rusty (whose?)

Probably Logos' if anyone's

Actually I think this was the quote

I was offered CE at a great deal today by one of the sales people I had before Rusty (whose now retired). But this change has me unsettled, and I since all the details aren't known - and more details like this 12 month thing - keep popping up I am reluctant to make a commitment beyond a certain price point.

Not a huge fan of people changing quotes :P

In your case though its funny.