More Robust New Testament Use of the Old Interactive
Can you expand on the allusions by using the USB 4 allusions? For example in the Book of Revelation the USB has nearly 400 allusions to the Old Testament. In this interactive tool you only show 19. I know you are using a different source for allusions but I believe the USB list is more inclusive. Here is a link to a chart listing the allusions to Revelation: logosres:chrtsbkrvltn;ref=Page.p_25;off=138 Charts on the Book of Revelation Literary, Historical, and Theological Perspectives by Mark Wilson
Comments
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Would like to hear from someone in Faithlife to add united bible societies allusions to this resource.
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John Brumett said:
Would like to hear from someone in Faithlife to add united bible societies allusions to this resource.
John, I'm not that Faithlife person, but I did check out the reference you gave and it seems to me that one person's allusion is another person's cross-reference from that chart. Of course it is also a chart of 'verbal parallels' in the OT which I suppose are more like traditional cross references. It makes me skeptical of what these 400 allusions might be and their actual value.
FL has four categories of OT references in this tool. Even if we agreed that the 'allusions' in the UBS are valuable, it would take some work to separate them into the four categories.
BTW: I was not able to call up any of the UBS4 OT allusions that I didn't already know existed. Certainly not 400 in Revelation. I'd be interested in how you found that number and how you've located them. I may be overlooking the obvious. Thanks.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark Smith said:
BTW: I was not able to call up any of the UBS4 OT allusions that I didn't already know existed. Certainly not 400 in Revelation. I'd be interested in how you found that number and how you've located them
Searching UBS on Revelation for OT references gives 306 results (top-left in the shot below) - while not the 400 suggested signficantly more than the 40 identified in the Interactive (right)
And I think there are certainly more than 40 - the example bottom right suggests that the double-edged sword in Rev 1:16 draws on imagery from Isaiah.
And the source from which the Interactive is taken includes many more OT references than shown in the Interactive - including the one I suggest relating to Revelation 1:16
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It's good to know folks want more intertextual stuff! We'll put expansion of the dataset on the list of things to consider.
Thanks!
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
It's good to know folks want more intertextual stuff! We'll put expansion of the dataset on the list of things to consider.
Thanks!
Thanks Rick
Any thoughts on why the Interactive doesn't have all the references from the source doc? Is it just "not done yet" or is there any other reason?
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As the author of one of the datasets that was used for this, I can speak for the motivations for that - and only that - part.
My interests (this was done prior to my employment here) were focused more on conscious use of a passage by the author. So I was very picky about what I included. If it didn't seem the author was explicitly quoting from or evoking a passage, I didn't include it. Mpre "echoy" stuff to use Rick's terminology wasn't within my interest.
Of course Rick made his own choices but it seems many of the 300+ other parallels may be more a shared idiom than conscious evocation of the OT passage, which is certainly interesting in its own right.
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Graham Criddle said:
Searching UBS on Revelation for OT references gives 306 results (top-left in the shot below) - while not the 400 suggested signficantly more than the 40 identified in the Interactive (right)
Well that's the UBS Handbook you searched, not the UBS4. I still don't know how to find out where the number 400 for allusions in Revelation in the UBS4 comes from.
I think there should be more than what we are seeing in the interactive, as you point out from a standard text on this subject.
Jeff Jackson said:My interests (this was done prior to my employment here) were focused more on conscious use of a passage by the author. So I was very picky about what I included. If it didn't seem the author was explicitly quoting from or evoking a passage, I didn't include it.
And I agree with a conservative philosophy in approaching this. So 400 'hits' in Revelation seems a bit much. Yet with the four categories included, the current list may be too small. Lots of judgment calls.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Looking at the Rev 1:15 || Isa 49:2 example above: beyond the sword image, there's really not much in common between them. In one the sword comes out of the mouth, in the other the mouth is like a sword. In one the prophet is seeing Christ with the sword, in the other it's the prophet himself with a mouth like a sword. In one the sword is double edged, in the other is sharp. Etc. It strikes me as more of a shared idiom of language than an evocation of a passage or even an echo of a common theme. It's certainly interesting, but doesn't seem to fit Rick's four-fold classification.
Pre-computer cross reference guides included these sorts of one-word parallels more, but today, simply searching for sword or doing a word study would give oh so much more information than a cross reference list on a single word.
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Mark Smith said:
Well that's the UBS Handbook you searched, not the UBS4
Sorry Mark - I misread the original post
Mark Smith said:I still don't know how to find out where the number 400 for allusions in Revelation in the UBS4 comes from.
It does have an OTQuote field. From the Title Page:
These instances of Old Testament quotations have been encoded as fields within this Logos Bible Software edition of the UBS4 text. The field name is OTQuote. Therefore, one may now use a search string like “OTQuote:ονομα” to locate all instances of the word ονομα within Old Testament quotations.
Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, et al., The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (with Morphology) (Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, 1993; 2006).
Maybe this number is derived from these fields - but I don't know.
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Jeff Jackson said:
Some commentators do seem to recognise the linkage:
The “sharp two-edged sword” proceeding from Jesus’ mouth is based on the prophecies of Isa. 11:4 and 49:2, which adds further to his depiction as an eschatological judge and as the one beginning to fulfill this messianic expectation (see below on use of the Isa. 11:4 imagery in Jewish writings). That this is the primary meaning is clear from the use of the same metaphor in 2:16 and 19:15; in particular, 19:15 shows that Isa. 11:4 is uppermost in mind here, since there ἵνα ἐν αὐτῇ πατάξῃ τὰ ἔθνη (“in order that he should strike the nations”) from Isa. 11:4 is added directly following καὶ ἐκ τοῦ στόματος αὐτοῦ ἐκπορεύεται ῥομφαία ὀξεῖα (“and from his mouth proceeds a sharp sword”). The use of Isa. 11:2–3 in Rev. 1:4 and 5:5–6 confirms this
G. K. Beale, The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text (New International Greek Testament Commentary; Grand Rapids, MI; Carlisle, Cumbria: W.B. Eerdmans; Paternoster Press, 1999), 211–212.
Other deities were portrayed as bearing swords,13 but this image is an allusion to Isaiah 11:4 (“He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked”)14 and Jewish images of God’s Word as a warrior with a sword (Wisd. 18:15; cf. Rev 19:15).
Craig S. Keener, Revelation (The NIV Application Commentary; Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1999), 96.
It is possible that v 16a is based on an allusion to Isa 49:2, where in the context of the second Servant p 99 Song, the speaker says “He [God] made my mouth like a sharp sword,” perhaps in combination with Isa 11:4, “he shall smite the earth with the rod [MT: שׁבט; LXX: τῷ λόγῳ] of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked” (see Comments on 19:15, 21. In Heb 4:12, the word of God is said to be “sharper than any two-edged sword.” In all these passages, the “sword” is clearly a metaphor for judgment (A. T. Hanson, Wrath, 166–67)
David E. Aune, Revelation 1–5 (vol. 52A; Word Biblical Commentary; Dallas: Word, Incorporated, 1998), 98–99.
I'm not suggesting that all commentators make this point but there is certainly some support for it.
Jeff Jackson said:It's certainly interesting, but doesn't seem to fit Rick's four-fold classification.
Personally I see this as either an allusion or an echo - but as Mark says there are a lot of judgment calls here.
Interestingly, Beale in his shorter commentary makes the strong point about Revelation having a lot of allusions to the Old Testament - but a lot of the books he references (even on the page shown) are not included in the Interactive: Ezekiel, Genesis, Joel, Exodus, Numbers.
Jeff Jackson said:Pre-computer cross reference guides included these sorts of one-word parallels more, but today, simply searching for sword or doing a word study would give oh so much more information than a cross reference list on a single word.
True but - as above - I think we are missing things I would expect to find in the Interactive
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Jeff Jackson said:
Of course Rick made his own choices but it seems many of the 300+ other parallels may be more a shared idiom than conscious evocation of the OT passage, which is certainly interesting in its own right.
I'm certainly interested in further improving intertextual datasets. For me the echoes are where you can add most value, as the quotations and the most obviously allusions can usually be easily found in footnotes.
But an expanded interactive and accompanying visual filter that marked quotations, allusions, and 'echoes'. I'd envision the visual filter applying colour coding to Bibles (different colours for different types of usage), together with an indicator I could hover over to get the other texts.
I am very attracted to Greg Beale's methodology for determining how the NT uses the OT (see here, particularly), and would like the data behind the tool to have come from biblical theological analysis, not just literary analysis.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
I am very attracted to Greg Beale's methodology for determining how the NT uses the OT (see here, particularly), and would like the data behind the tool to have come from biblical theological analysis, not just literary analysis.
[Y]
Having said that, I like this tool - at the same time fully accepting that whether something should go into it is very much a matter of opinion wen you get down to echoes and allusions.
Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5
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This is what I found Mark:Mark Smith said:Well that's the UBS Handbook you searched, not the UBS4. I still don't know how to find out where the number 400 for allusions in Revelation in the UBS4 comes from.
Here is a quote from the COMMENTARY on the New Testament Use of the Old estament Edited by G. K. Beale and D. A. Carson[1]
It is generally recognized that Revelation contains more OT references than does any other NT book, although past attempts to tally the total amount have varied (UBS3 = 394; NA26 = 635; British and Foreign Bible Society Greek text = 493; Hühn 1900 = 455;[2]
The fourth edition of the United Bible Societies’ Greek Testament (1993) lists 343 Old Testament quotations in the New Testament, as well as no fewer than 2,309 allusions and verbal parallels. The books most used are Psalms (79 quotations, 333 allusions), and Isaiah (66 quotations, 348 allusions). In the Book of Revelation, there are no formal quotations at all, but no fewer than 620 allusions.[3]
First, some statistics: the fourth edition of the United Bible Societies’ Greek Testament (1993) lists 343 Old Testament quotations in the New Testament, as well as no fewer than 2,309 allusions and verbal parallels. The books most used are Psalms (79 quotations, 333 allusions), and Isaiah (66 quotations, 348 allusions). In the Book of Revelation, there are no formal quotations at all, but no fewer than 620 allusions.[4]
The references in this chart are drawn from the “Index of Allusions and Verbal Parallels” found in UBS4, pages 891–901. The 403 verse citations with these allusions and verbal parallels are distributed as follows: Genesis—10; Exodus—24; Leviticus—4; Numbers—3; Deuteronomy—10 (Law—51); Judges—1; 1 Samuel—1; 2 Samuel—2; 1 Kings—6; 2 Kings—6; 1 Chronicles—1; 2 Chronicles—4; Nehemiah—1; Esther—1; Job—3; Psalms—69; Proverbs—3 (Writings—98); Isaiah—74; Jeremiah—37; Lamentations—1; Ezekiel—58; Daniel—41; Hosea—2; Joel—9; Amos—3; Obadiah—1; Micah—1; Nahum—1; Zephaniah—2; Zechariah—22; Malachi—2 (Prophets—254). The Law has 13 percent of the citations, the Writings 24 percent, and the Prophets 63 percent. UBS4 does not list any quotations from the Old Testament in Revelation in its “Index of Quotations.”[5]
[1] G. K. Beale and D. A. Carson, Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament (Grand Rapids, MI; Nottingham, UK: Baker Academic; Apollos, 2007), iii.
[2] G. K. Beale and D. A. Carson, Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament (Grand Rapids, MI; Nottingham, UK: Baker Academic; Apollos, 2007), 1082.
[3] Walter A. Elwell and Walter A. Elwell, Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology, Baker Reference Library (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1996).
[4] Kenneth Boa and William Kruidenier, Romans, vol. 6, Holman New Testament Commentary (Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2000), 322.
[5] Mark Wilson, Charts on the Book of Revelation: Literary, Historical, and Theological Perspectives, Kregel Charts of the Bible and Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Academic & Professional, 2007), 120.
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John, this is very helpful in furthering this discussion. Thanks!
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9. Allusions and Verbal Parallels in the Old Testament and Extrabiblical Literature
Revelation
Old Testament and Extrabiblical Literature
1:1
Dan. 2:28, 29, 45
1:4
Exod. 3:14; Isa. 41:4
1:5
Pss. 89:27; 130:8; Isa. 40:2
1:6
Exod. 19:6; Isa. 61:6
1:7
Dan. 7:13; Zech. 12:10, 12, 14
1:8
Exod. 3:14; Isa. 41:4; Amos 3:13 LXX; 4:13 LXX
1:13
Ezek. 9:2, 11 LXX; Dan. 7:13; 10:5
1:14
Dan. 7:9
1:14–15
Dan. 10:6
1:15
Ezek. 1:24; 43:2
1:16
Isa. 49:2
1:17
Isa. 44:6; 48:12
1:19
Isa. 48:6 LXX; Dan. 2:28, 29, 45
2:6
Ps. 139:21
2:7
Gen. 2:8 LXX, 2:9; 3:22, 24; Ezek. 28:13 LXX; 31:8, 9 LXX
2:8
Isa. 44:6; 48:12
2:10
Dan. 1:12, 14
2:12
Isa. 49:2
2:14
Num. 25:1–2; 31:16
2:16
Isa. 49:2
2:17
Ps. 78:24; Isa. 62:2; 65:15
2:18
Dan. 10:6
2:20
Num. 25:1–2; 1 Kings 16:31; 2 Kings 9:22
2:23
Pss. 7:9; 62:12; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 11:20; 17:10
2:26–27
Ps. 2:8, 9; Pss. Sol. 17:23–24
3:5
Exod. 32:32, 33; Ps. 69:28; Dan. 12:1
3:7
Job 12:14; Isa. 22:22
3:9
Isa. 43:4; 45:14; 49:23; 60:14
3:12
Isa. 62:2; 65:15; Ezek. 48:35
3:14
Prov. 8:22
3:17
Hos. 12:8
3:19
Prov. 3:12
4:1
Exod. 19:20, 24; Dan. 2:28, 29, 45
4:2
1 Kings 22:19; 2 Chron. 18:18; Ps. 47:8; Isa. 6:1; Ezek. 1:26–27; Sir. 1:8
4:3
Ezek. 1:26–28
4:4
Isa. 24:23
4:5
Exod. 19:16; Esther 1:1d LXX; Ezek. 1:13; Zech. 4:2
4:6
Ezek. 1:22
4:6–7
Ezek. 1:5–10; 10:14
4:8
Exod. 3:14; Isa. 6:2, 3; 41:4; Ezek. 1:18; 10:12; Amos 3:13 LXX; 4:13 LXX
4:9
1 Kings 22:19; 2 Chron. 18:18; Ps. 47:8; Isa. 6:1; Ezek. 1:26–27; Dan. 4:34; 6:26; 12:7; Sir. 1:8
4:10
1 Kings 22:19; 2 Chron. 18:18; Ps. 47:8; Isa. 6:1; Ezek. 1:26–27; Sir. 1:8
5:1
1 Kings 22:19; 2 Chron. 18:18; Ps. 47:8; Isa. 6:1; 29:11; Ezek. 1:26–27; 2:9–10; Sir. 1:8
5:5
Gen. 49:9–10; Isa. 11:1, 10
5:6
Isa. 53:7; Zech. 4:10
5:7
1 Kings 22:19; 2 Chron. 18:18; Ps. 47:8; Isa. 6:1; Ezek. 1:26–27; Sir. 1:8
5:8
Ps. 141:2
5:9
Pss. 33:3; 40:3; 96:1; 98:1; 144:9; 149:1; Isa. 42:10
5:10
Exod. 19:6; Isa. 61:6
5:11
Dan. 7:10; 1 En. 14:22
5:12
1 Chron. 29:11; Isa. 53:7
5:13
1 Kings 22:19; 2 Chron. 18:18; Ps. 47:8; Isa. 6:1; Ezek. 1:26–27; Sir. 1:8
6:2
Zech. 1:8; 6:3, 6
6:4
Zech. 1:8; 6:2
6:5
Zech. 6:2, 6
6:8
Jer. 14:12; 15:3; Ezek. 5:12, 17; 14:21; 33:27
6:10
Deut. 32:43; 2 Kings 9:7; Ps. 79:10
6:12
Joel 2:31
6:12–13
Isa. 13:10; Ezek. 32:7, 8; Joel 2:10; 3:15
6:13–14
Isa. 34:4
6:15
Isa. 2:10, 19, 21; Jer. 4:29
6:16
1 Kings 22:19; 2 Chron. 18:18; Ps. 47:8; Isa. 6:1; Ezek. 1:26–27; Hos. 10:8; Sir. 1:8
6:17
Joel 2:11; Nah. 1:6; Mal. 3:2
7:1
Jer. 49:36; Ezek. 37:9; Dan. 7:2; Zech. 6:5
7:3
Ezek. 9:4
7:10
1 Kings 22:19; 2 Chron. 18:18; Ps. 47:8; Isa. 6:1; Ezek. 1:26–27; Sir. 1:8
7:14
Dan. 12:1
7:15
1 Kings 22:19; 2 Chron. 18:18; Ps. 47:8; Isa. 6:1; Ezek. 1:26–27; Sir. 1:8
7:16
Isa. 49:10
7:17
Ps. 23:1, 2; Isa. 25:8; 49:10; Jer. 2:13; Ezek. 34:23
8:3
Exod. 30:1–3; Ps. 141:2
8:4
Ps. 141:2
8:5
Exod. 19:16–19; Lev. 16:12; Esther 1:1d LXX
8:7
Exod. 9:23–25; Ezek. 38:22; Wis. 16:22
8:8
Exod. 7:20, 21
8:11
Jer. 9:15
8:12
Isa. 13:10; Ezek. 32:7, 8; Joel 2:10; 3:15
9:2
Gen. 19:28; Exod. 19:18
9:3
Exod. 10:12, 15; Wis. 16:9
9:6
Job 3:21; Jer. 8:3; Hos. 10:8
9:7
Joel 2:4, 5
9:8
Joel 1:6
9:9
Joel 2:5
9:13
Exod. 30:1–3
9:20
Deut. 32:17; Pss. 115:4–7; 135:15–17; Dan. 5:23
10:4
Dan. 8:26; 12:4, 9
10:5–6
Deut. 32:40; Dan. 12:7
10:6
Gen. 14:19, 22; Exod. 20:11; Neh. 9:6; Ps. 146:6
10:7
Dan. 9:6, 10; Amos 3:7; Zech. 1:6
10:9–10
Ezek. 2:8; 3:1–3
10:11
Jer. 1:10; 25:30; Dan. 3:4; 7:14
11:1
Ezek. 40:3; Zech. 2:1–2
11:2
Ps. 79:1; Isa. 63:18; Zech. 12:3 LXX
11:4
Zech. 4:3, 11–14
11:5
2 Sam. 22:9; 2 Kings 1:10; Ps. 97:3; Jer. 5:14
11:6
Exod. 7:17, 19–20; 1 Sam. 4:8; 1 Kings 17:1
11:7
Dan. 7:3, 7, 21
11:8
Isa. 1:10
11:11
Ezek. 37:5, 10
11:12
2 Kings 2:11
11:13
Ezek. 38:19–20
11:15
Exod. 15:18; Pss. 10:16; 22:28; Dan. 2:44; 7:14; Obad. 21; Zech. 14:9
11:17
Exod. 3:14; Amos 3:13 LXX; 4:13 LXX
11:18
Pss. 2:1; 46:6; 115:13; Dan. 9:6, 10; Amos 3:7; Zech. 1:6
11:19
Exod. 9:24; 19:16; 1 Kings 8:1, 6; 2 Chron. 5:7; Esther 1:1d LXX; Ezek. 1:13
12:2
Isa. 66:7; Mic. 4:10
12:3
Dan. 7:7
12:4
Dan. 8:10
12:5
Ps. 2:9; Isa. 7:14; 66:7
12:7
Dan. 10:13, 21; 12:1
12:9
Isa. 14:12
12:10
Job 1:9–11; Zech. 3:1
12:14
Dan. 7:25; 12:7
12:17
Dan. 7:7, 21
13:1
Dan. 7:3
13:2
Dan. 7:4–6
13:5
Dan. 7:8, 20, 25; 11:36
13:7
Dan. 7:7, 21
13:8
Exod. 32:32, 33; Ps. 69:28; Isa. 53:7; Dan. 12:1
13:10
Jer. 15:2; 43:11
13:13
1 Kings 18:24–39
13:14
Deut. 13:2–4
13:15
Dan. 3:5–6
14:1
Ezek. 9:4
14:2
Ezek. 1:24; 43:2
14:3
Pss. 33:3; 40:3; 96:1; 98:1; 144:9; 149:1; Isa. 42:10
14:5
Ps. 32:2; Isa. 53:9; Zeph. 3:13
14:7
Exod. 20:11; Ps. 146:6
14:8
Isa. 21:9; Jer. 51:7, 8
14:10
Gen. 19:24; Pss. 11:6; 75:8; Isa. 51:17, 22; Jer. 25:15; Ezek. 38:22; 3 Macc. 2:5
14:11
Isa. 34:10
14:14
Dan. 7:13
14:15
Joel 3:13
14:18
Joel 3:13
14:20
Isa. 63:3; Lam. 1:15
15:1
Lev. 26:21
15:3
Exod. 15:1, 11; Deut. 32:4; Pss. 92:5; 111:2; 139:14; 145:17; Jer. 10:10 Theodotion; Amos 3:13 LXX; 4:13 LXX; 1 En. 9:4; 25:5; 27:3; Tob. 13:7, 11
15:4
Ps. 86:9; Jer. 10:6–7; Mal. 1:11
15:5
Exod. 38:21; 40:34
15:6
Lev. 26:21
15:7
Ps. 75:8; Isa. 51:17, 22; Jer. 25:15
15:8
Exod. 40:34; 1 Kings 8:10–11; 2 Chron. 5:13–14; Isa. 6:4; Ezek. 44:4
16:1
Ps. 69:24; Isa. 66:6; Jer. 10:25; Ezek. 22:31; Zeph. 3:8
16:2
Exod. 9:10; Deut. 28:35
16:3
Exod. 7:17–21
16:4
Exod. 7:19–24; Ps. 78:44
16:5
Exod. 3:14; Deut. 32:4; Pss. 119:137; 145:17
16:6
Ps. 79:3; Isa. 49:26
16:7
Pss. 19:9; 119:137; Amos 3:13 LXX; 4:13 LXX
16:10
Exod. 10:21; Isa. 8:22
16:12
Isa. 11:15; 44:27; Jer. 50:38; 51:36
16:14
Amos 3:13 LXX; 4:13 LXX
16:16
Judg. 5:19; 2 Kings 9:27; 23:29; Zech. 12:11
16:17
Isa. 66:6
16:18
Exod. 19:16–19; Esther 1:1d LXX; Dan. 12:1
16:19
Ps. 75:8; Isa. 51:17, 22; Jer. 25:15
16:21
Exod. 9:24
17:1
Jer. 51:13
17:2
Isa. 23:17; Jer. 51:7
17:4
Jer. 51:7; Ezek. 28:13
17:8
Exod. 32:32, 33; Ps. 69:28; Dan. 7:3; 12:1
17:12
Dan. 7:24
17:14
Deut. 10:17; Dan. 2:47; 1 En. 9:4; 2 Macc. 13:4; 3 Macc. 5:35
17:16
Lev. 21:9
18:2
Isa. 13:21; 21:9; 34:11; Jer. 50:39; 51:8; Bar. 4:35
18:3
Isa. 23:17; Jer. 51:7
18:4
Isa. 48:20; 52:11; Jer. 50:8; 51:6, 9, 45
18:5
Gen. 18:20, 21; Jer. 51:9
18:6
Ps. 137:8; Jer. 50:15, 29
18:7–8
Isa. 47:7–9
18:8
Lev. 21:9; Jer. 50:34
18:9
Ezek. 26:16; 27:30–35
18:10
Ezek. 26:17; Dan. 4:30
18:11
Ezek. 27:36
18:12–13
Ezek. 27:12, 13, 22
18:15
Ezek. 27:36
18:16
Ezek. 28:13
18:17
Ezek. 27:27–29
18:18
Ezek. 27:32
18:19
Ezek. 27:30–34
18:20
Deut. 32:43 LXX; Ps. 96:11; Isa. 44:23; 49:13; Jer. 51:48
18:21
Jer. 51:63–64; Ezek. 26:21
18:22
Isa. 24:8; Ezek. 26:13
18:23
Isa. 23:8; 47:9; Jer. 7:34; 16:9; Jer. 25:10
18:24
Jer. 51:49; Ezek. 24:7
19:1
Tob. 13:17
19:2
Deut. 32:43; 2 Kings 9:7; Pss. 19:9; 79:10; 119:137
19:3
Isa. 34:10
19:4
1 Kings 22:19; 2 Chron. 18:18; Ps. 47:8; Isa. 6:1; Ezek. 1:26–27; Sir. 1:8
19:5
Pss. 22:23; 115:13; 134:1; 135:1
19:6
Exod. 15:18; Pss. 22:28; 93:1; 97:1; 99:1; Ezek. 1:24; 43:2; Dan. 7:14; Amos 3:13 LXX; 4:13 LXX; Zech. 14:9
19:8
Isa. 61:10
19:11
Ps. 96:13; Isa. 11:4; Ezek. 1:1; Zech. 1:8; 6:3, 6
19:12
Dan. 10:6
19:13
Isa. 63:1–3
19:15
Ps. 2:9; Isa. 49:2; 63:3; Lam. 1:15; Joel 3:13; Amos 3:13 LXX; 4:13 LXX
19:16
Deut. 10:17; Dan. 2:47; 1 En. 9:4; 2 Macc. 13:4; 3 Macc. 5:35
19:17–18
Ezek. 39:17–20
19:19
Ps. 2:2
19:20
Isa. 30:33
19:21
Ezek. 39:17, 20
20:4
Dan. 7:9, 22, 27
20:6
Exod. 19:6; Isa. 61:6
20:8
Ezek. 7:2; 38:2
20:9
2 Kings 1:10; Ezek. 38:22; 39:6
20:10
Gen. 19:24; Ps. 11:6; Isa. 30:33; Ezek. 38:22; 3 Macc. 2:5
20:11
Ps. 114:3–7
20:11–12
Dan. 7:9–10
20:12
Exod. 32:32, 33; Ps. 69:28; Dan. 12:1
20:12–13
Pss. 28:4; 62:12; Prov. 24:12; Isa. 59:18; Jer. 17:10
20:15
Exod. 32:32, 33; Ps. 69:28; Isa. 30:33; Dan. 12:1
21:1
Isa. 65:17; 66:22
21:2
Isa. 52:1; 61:10
21:3
Lev. 26:11–12; 2 Chron. 6:18; Ezek. 37:27; Zech. 2:10
21:4
Isa. 25:8; 35:10; 65:19
21:5
1 Kings 22:19; 2 Chron. 18:18; Ps. 47:8; Isa. 6:1; Ezek. 1:26–27; Sir. 1:8
21:6
Ps. 36:9; Isa. 44:6; 48:12; 55:1; Jer. 2:13
21:7
2 Sam. 7:14
21:8
Gen. 19:24; Ps. 11:6; Isa. 30:33; Ezek. 38:22; 3 Macc. 2:5
21:10
Ezek. 40:2
21:11
Isa. 60:1, 2, 19
21:12–13
Exod. 28:21; Ezek. 48:30–35
21:15
Ezek. 40:3, 5
21:16–17
Ezek. 48:16, 17
21:19
Isa. 54:11–12
21:22
Amos 3:13 LXX; 4:13 LXX
21:23
Isa. 60:19–20
21:24
Isa. 60:3, 5; Pss. Sol. 17:31
21:25
Isa. 60:11; Zech. 14:7
21:26
Ps. 72:10–11; Pss. Sol. 17:31
21:27
Exod. 32:32, 33; Ps. 69:28; Isa. 52:1; Dan. 12:1
22:1
Ezek. 47:1; Joel 3:18; Zech. 14:8
22:2
Gen. 2:9; 3:22; Ezek. 47:12
22:3
Zech. 14:11
22:4
Pss. 17:15; 42:2
22:5
Isa. 60:19–20; Dan. 7:18, 27; Zech. 14:7
22:6
Dan. 2:28, 29, 45
22:10
Dan. 12:4
22:12
Pss. 28:4; 62:12; Prov. 24:12; Isa. 40:10; 59:18; 62:11; Jer. 17:10
22:13
Isa. 44:6; 48:12
22:14
Gen. 2:9; 3:22; Ezek. 47:12
22:16
Num. 24:17; Isa. 11:1, 10
22:17
Isa. 55:1
22:18–19
Deut. 4:2; 12:32
22:19
Gen. 2:9; 3:22; Ezek. 47:12
Mark Wilson, Charts on the Book of Revelation: Literary, Historical, and Theological Perspectives, Kregel Charts of the Bible and Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Academic & Professional, 2007), 25–30.0 -
Hi folks.
I really appreciate the discussion here. Thanks!
Mark Barnes said:Jeff Jackson said:Of course Rick made his own choices but it seems many of the 300+ other parallels may be more a shared idiom than conscious evocation of the OT passage, which is certainly interesting in its own right.
I'm certainly interested in further improving intertextual datasets. For me the echoes are where you can add most value, as the quotations and the most obviously allusions can usually be easily found in footnotes.
It's true, the further we move from the more obvious cases (quotations and citations), the more subjectivity plays a role in the classifications. That's not a bad thing, and I think those involved in the discussion here realize this. As mentioned above, I'm most definitely not against expanding the set of references. It's just that the jump from where we are to where folks seem to say they want to go is large. For me, teasing out the differences between something that is an echo or allusion and something that is a "verbal parallel" is the important next step.
Mark Barnes said:But an expanded interactive and accompanying visual filter that marked quotations, allusions, and 'echoes'. I'd envision the visual filter applying colour coding to Bibles (different colours for different types of usage), together with an indicator I could hover over to get the other texts.
So, I'm sure Mark already knows this, but with the additional dataset delivered as part of Logos Now, you can search using the Intertext label; and you can set up a visual filter using the existing implementation of the dataset. Further, if your information panel is open, the "Intertext" label will show, with the 'Source' reference and classification, in the "Other References" section of the panel. For example, when I hover (my settings, yours may differ) 1Tim 5.18, the following appears in my info panel:
Note that if I was in Deut 25:4, I'd see the following in the Info panel:
To summarize where we're at: I think the present NT Use of OT interactive (+dataset) is the first step, not the last word. I think the response to the interactive shows that there is more work to do here to meet the needs of folks who find this information valuable as they study, learn, and teach. I'm honestly encouraged and flattered by the response. As I mentioned above, I've already filed an issue in our internal systems to figure out ways to expand the data. I can't say this is at the top of my list or my team's list, but it's in the queue to figure out.
Keep the discussion going if you'd like, it is useful for us to see.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
So, I'm sure Mark already knows this, but with the additional dataset delivered as part of Logos Now, you can search using the Intertext label; and you can set up a visual filter using the existing implementation of the dataset.
Unfortunately, this is extremely slow. A simple visual filter applying to four types of colour coding several minutes to apply, even on my relatively fast PC. From my log file:
LibrarySearcher (1m 43.3s) Searching SingleResource for: {Label Intertext WHERE Relationship = "Quotation"} OR {Label Intertext WHERE Relationship = "Citation"}
LibrarySearcher (1m 6.8s) Searching SingleResource for: {Label Intertext WHERE Relationship = "Allusion"}
LibrarySearcher (35.78s) Searching SingleResource for: {Label Intertext WHERE Relationship = "Echo"}This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
For me, teasing out the differences between something that is an echo or allusion and something that is a "verbal parallel" is the important next step.
Again, Beale is very helpful on this in chapter 2 of his Handbook on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament: Exegesis and Interpretation. In that chapter he covers both criteria and sources.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
Unfortunately, this is extremely slow.
This is a known issue with {Label} searches.
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Mark Barnes said:Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
For me, teasing out the differences between something that is an echo or allusion and something that is a "verbal parallel" is the important next step.
Again, Beale is very helpful on this in chapter 2 of his Handbook on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament: Exegesis and Interpretation. In that chapter he covers both criteria and sources.
Thanks, Mark. It is less about the critera, and more about the simple task of applying a given critera/approach against a (rather lengthy) list of references. Internally, we've used the term "sitzfleisch" (coined, to my knowledge, by Dean Forbes of Andersen-Forbes fame) to describe this aspect of the process. Even with solid critera, examination of this sort takes time. Sitzfleisch. Someone needs to sit down and do it once we've isolated references and approach.
And, I know the label searching isn't the fastest. But it does make the task possible; which was my larger point in the discussion. Before the dataset and interactive were released, it wasn't possible. Baby steps.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
John Brumett said:
This is what I found Mark:
Thanks, John. That is very helpful.
John Brumett said:The fourth edition of the United Bible Societies’ Greek Testament (1993) lists 343 Old Testament quotations in the New Testament, as well as no fewer than 2,309 allusions and verbal parallels.
The second figure seems like overkill to me.
If, as Mark B. suggests, most of these allusions and verbal parallels would fall into the Echos category, I already find that the least helpful and most subjective category of the tool and dataset. Not sure a thousand more echos adds any value to the tool for me.
Thanks for opening up the discussion. It does seem some additional work could be done, and that there is interest in it.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
Thanks, Mark. It is less about the critera, and more about the simple task of applying a given critera/approach against a (rather lengthy) list of references. Internally, we've used the term "sitzfleisch" (coined, to my knowledge, by Dean Forbes of Andersen-Forbes fame) to describe this aspect of the process. Even with solid critera, examination of this sort takes time. Sitzfleisch. Someone needs to sit down and do it once we've isolated references and approach.
Sorry for being obtuse (or perhaps just too subtle).
In that chapter Beale did two things: (1) Proposed a definition (of sorts) for echo and allusion — that echoes are simply uncertain allusions; and (b) Provided a bibliography of various lists of citations/echoes/allusions.
What that therefore means is that it ought to be possible to compile a list of possible OT/NT allusions/echoes from half a dozen reputable sources (with an emphasis on reputable), and them simply rank them according to frequency of occurrence. Those that occur in 5 or 6 sources are clear allusions. Those that appear in one or two are weak echoes.
Assuming there aren't issues with intellectual property, it ought to be possible to produce a much more extensive list, graded according to clarity, without needing a human to make a determination of every version. (And I think that if you're analysing the data to produce something new then copyright isn't a problem.)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Smith said:
If, as Mark B. suggests, most of these allusions and verbal parallels would fall into the Echos category, I already find that the least helpful and most subjective category of the tool and dataset. Not sure a thousand more echos adds any value to the tool for me.
That's where I would differ. The more faint echoes are by far the most interesting to me, because I probably wouldn't find them without help. I don't need a tool for the obvious stuff. (Of course, there gets a point where one man's faint echo is another man's grasping at straws, so I wouldn't want every possible echo just dumped into the dataset. But if allusions could be weighted by how much of a consensus there is, so that users can ignore 'way out' views, that would be great.)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:Mark Smith said:
If, as Mark B. suggests, most of these allusions and verbal parallels would fall into the Echos category, I already find that the least helpful and most subjective category of the tool and dataset. Not sure a thousand more echos adds any value to the tool for me.
That's where I would differ. The more faint echoes are by far the most interesting to me, because I probably wouldn't find them without help. I don't need a tool for the obvious stuff. (Of course, there gets a point where one man's faint echo is another man's grasping at straws, so I wouldn't want every possible echo just dumped into the dataset. But if allusions could be weighted by how much of a consensus there is, so that users can ignore 'way out' views, that would be great.)
I agree with what you have to say, Mark. Allusions are significant although there is a balance to strike. If an allusion would not be accessible to the author's intended audience, who would have shared the relevant context (or background knowledge) that the author assumed (or took for granted) when forming his message (including intended allusions), then, as readers, we're drifting into speculation. Authors have to provide enough information or "conceptual links" for the reader to make the connection with their prior knowledge of the Scriptures. Some are obviously more apparent than others.
Consider Jesus' healing of a widow's only son at Nain, near Shunem off of the hill of Moreh, where Elisha also raised a woman's son who had died (Luke 7:11–17; 2 Kgs 4:18–37). Elijah had previously done the same for a widow's son in Zarephath (1 Kings 17:17–24). Luke records the crowd's response after Jesus raises him: "And the dead man sat up and began to speak, and Jesus gave him to his mother. Fear seized them all, and they glorified God, saying, 'A great prophet has arisen among us!' and 'God has visited his people!'" (Luke 7:15–16 ESV, italics added). I won't point out all of the potential, relevant connections here, but its no surprise that Luke and Jesus himself make many connections between Jesus' ministry and the ministries of Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and the prophets of old, not to mention John the Baptist's ministry (e.g., Luke 4:24–27; 9:28–36; Deut 18:9–22; including God manifesting his glory and speaking to Moses and Elijah on Mt. Sinai/Horeb; crossing the water as on dry land; 40 days and 40 nights; etc.). Not a few students and scholars will suspect strong allusions (or sometimes weaker echoes) in many of these cases.
That said, I doubt any of us disagree that connections can become rather tenuous. My personal practice would be to err on the side of caution and avoid speculation. I think that the suggestions given by Mark and others would be helpful in expanding an already very useful interactive and dataset (e.g., drawing from and comparing multiple sources, graded/ranked categories, visual filters, etc.). I think the NT Use of the OT interactive is off to a great start.
(There are plenty of connections between the books/scrolls of the Hebrew OT as well [e.g., the Torah and the prophets, the prophets and the prophets, etc.]. I think someone may have suggested such a database already, just recently.)
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All I am asking is to include the usb3 or usb4 listing of verbal parallels and allusions in this tool. No need to reinvent the wheel. Some of us have a hard copy list which is in the appendix of the usb Greek nt. For some reason this appendix was not included in the logos version. Although I think it might be included in the searchable data. Since this is a consistent resource that is used by many commentators why not include the usb list of quotations and the usb list of verbal parallels and allusions?
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John Brumett said:
All I am asking is to include the usb3 or usb4 listing of verbal parallels and allusions in this tool.
Hi John.
That material is material owned and copyright by the United Bible Societies, so we can't just include it. Part of the work of the existing NT use of OT interactive was in developing the list of references to treat, and then analyzing them for relationships.
Again, all I can say at this point is: We hear there is more interest in developing this tool and approach further. That's on our list of things to consider, and based on the feedback thus far, I'm pretty sure we'll figure something out. But there is not an immediate or easy solution; it'll take time and effort to work out and integrate into the existing dataset.
Thanks again for y'all's interest and encouragement.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
To add to the list of sources to evaluate as possible aids to improving this and similar tools...
I am working currently on Revelation's use of the OT, and have found of interest a 1987 doctoral dissertation from the CUA by Susan Mathews, entitled, "A critical evaluation of the allusions to the Old Testament in Apocalypse 1:1-8:5" (available for purchase here: http://dissexpress.umi.com/dxweb/search.html). Her director was Joseph Fitzmyer SJ.
The goal of the thesis was to classify allusions to the OT into certain, probable, and possible. She concluded there are 118 allusions to the OT in Revelation 1:1-8:5 (an average of almost 1 per verse!). She classifies these, with 48 as certain, 37 as probable, and 33 as possible.
Unfortunately she only did chapters 1-8:5 of Revelation, but it still might be of use, especially given the clarity and straightforward nature of her study.
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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
Again, all I can say at this point is: We hear there is more interest in developing this tool and approach further. That's on our list of things to consider, and based on the feedback thus far, I'm pretty sure we'll figure something out. But there is not an immediate or easy solution; it'll take time and effort to work out and integrate into the existing dataset.
Thanks again for y'all's interest and encouragement.
Hi folks.
This morning (Sept. 19, 2016) we released a significant update to the New Testament Use of the Old Testament Interactive and also to the Dataset. Instead of the ~700 (?) references originally tracked, there are now 2500+ references tracked. If you've got a license for this material, the update should be available for you.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
This morning (Sept. 19, 2016) we released a significant update to the New Testament Use of the Old Testament Interactive and also to the Dataset. Instead of the ~700 (?) references originally tracked, there are now 2500+ references tracked. If you've got a license for this material, the update should be available for you.
Thanks, Rick. This is great. I especially appreciate the improvements in coverage of the book of Revelation.
I would suggest that you provide documentation regarding sources and methodology used to identify the references.
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Fr Devin Roza said:
I would suggest that you provide documentation regarding sources and methodology used to identify the references.
The "about" section in the Interactive lists some information on the classification types. The source is Jones' set of OT Quotations and Allusions.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
The source is Jones' set of OT Quotations and Allusions.
Ok, great, thanks.
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How does the tool determine the language of the source? For example, when I choose the book of Titus, the source is in English. When I choose 1 John, the source is in Greek. See below:
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There is a toggle in the upper left of the resource tool bar.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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