How to make this kind of search
Comments
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I'm new to this myself! It works for me if I type this in as a bible search, but I don't know if I'm relying on datasets that aren't universal - I think anyone with a Logos 6 core bundle/crossgrade is ok?
child* WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>}
EDIT: Hang on, that's just when Jesus says it, not when he addresses someone specific by it. Sorry! Still bumbling my way through, so I'll be quiet now.
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Placyd Kon said:
Please help me! I am trying to find all the verses in NT where Jesus addresses somebody "child" or "children". Is this feasible in Logos? How?
((<Sense ~ child>, <Sense child (endearment)>) WITHIN 0 WORDS <LogosMorphGr ~ NV???>)
Or, just in the words of Jesus:
To take you through it from left to right:
- I've chosen Sense data rather than lemmas, as there's at least six lemmas which could be relevant, but only two senses (and their children, no pun intended!). You could use Louw-Nida domains if you prefer.
- We want this word also to be a vocative noun. (That's the case used for a direct address.) WITHIN 0 WORDS links the sense directly to the morph search. You can construct the morph criteria by using the handy picker in Morph Search, then switch to a Bible Search.
- Finally, we want all of that within the words of Jesus.
- The parenthesis work as the do in Math, to ensure the search is carried out in the right order.
Feel free to ask additional questions if you wish.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark posted a good explanation while I was working on mine, so this is pretty redundant.
If you were using a basic search engine, you would be stuck with something like Jesus AND (child OR children). As you know, this is lousy. It will find things like "Jesus and the children sat together," but not "The Son of Man said "My child, I love you."
In Logos, I begin with a more sophisticated but fairly brute force type approach:
(children, child) WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>}
This finds children or child where the Speaker is Jesus. The list (multiple terms in parenthesis, separated by commas) will find any of the terms inside of it. The WITHIN means it will find that, exactly like it says, WITHIN sections of text where the speaker is Jesus; if you don't use all caps, it will search for the word "within" instead of creating a powerful search. Curly braces show that it is a section of text. The <Person Jesus> is how Logos shows that it will find the places where Jesus is speaking, even if the text says "He" or something similar.
A list of places where Jesus used the word child or children is still too broad, but it gave me some examples. So I clicked on John 13:33, where Jesus calls His disciples little children. I right clicked on "children" as a kind of cheating way to see how Logos actually tags this. I see the Sense icon with "child (endearment)."
I go back to my original search and change it to:
<Sense child (endearment)> WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>}
Which gives exactly what you are looking for.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Actually, I think we need a few more senses:
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
((<Sense ~ child>, <Sense child (endearment)>) WITHIN 0 WORDS <LogosMorphGr ~ NV???>) WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>}
Mark - I really like this but it does give results when Jesus addresses people in terms other than "child*"
Combining this with an earlier suggestion gives
which may be closer to what is being asked for?
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You can search for:
(child, children) WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>}
It is difficult to have a search distinguish whether he is addressing them or talking about them, but you can easily find the one's of interest in the 40+ verses.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Mark Barnes said:
I don't think those senses add anything to just <Sense child (endearment)>, since I assume the study isn't interested in people in parables who are referring to their children, or to actual children. Maybe Luke 8:54 should be tagged as child (endearment), though. I think the Morph is good to add (pedantically), even though it doesn't change the results in this case, since endearment is usually in direct address.
((child, children) WITHIN 0 WORDS <LogosMorphGr ~NV??>) WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>} probably literally answers the question best, but I assume son and daughter are included in the reasoning behind the question.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Graham Criddle said:
Mark - I really like this but it does give results when Jesus addresses people in terms other than "child*"
Yes, but different English translations will give different results for that search. The distinction between child/boy/girl isn't really there in Greek, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to search for 'child' in this instance, or more generally to search in English for these types of seaches. You could, of course, do a grid search across all major versions if you really wanted English.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Justin Gatlin said:
I don't think those senses add anything to just <Sense child (endearment)>, since I assume the study isn't interested in people in parables who are referring to their children, or to actual children. Maybe Luke 8:54 should be tagged as child (endearment), though.
Possibly, but (a) I wasn't 100% sure of the intention of the original question, and (b) you don't know unless you try, do you? One of the problems with senses is that there are often multiple terms with similar meanings, and personally I find it a good habit to check the BSL for possible terms, rather than just relying on a cue from a familiar verse (although like you, I often see how Logos tag a verse before I attempt to search).
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
Yes, but different English translations will give different results for that search. The distinction between child/boy/girl isn't really there in Greek, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to search for 'child' in this instance, or more generally to search in English for these types of seaches
Totally fair point
Mark Barnes said:You could, of course, do a grid search across all major versions if you really wanted English.
From his post it looks as though this was what Placyd was looking for
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It looks so. Thank you!Graham Criddle said:From his post it looks as though this was what Placyd was looking for
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Mark Barnes said:
((<Sense ~ child>, <Sense child (endearment)>) WITHIN 0 WORDS <LogosMorphGr ~ NV???>)
This search (and the other searches built on it) are not working for me in the KJV 1900. They work in the ESV and NIV for me, however.
I broke it apart and each section works fine until I try to join them with WITHIN 0 WORDS.
Can anyone confirm?
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Integ said:
This search (and the other searches built on it) are not working for me in the KJV 1900. They work in the ESV and NIV for me, however.
I broke it apart and each section works fine until I try to join them with WITHIN 0 WORDS.
Can anyone confirm?
Tested and working fine on my setup! Have you tried typing "reindex KJV" into the command box....?
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I rebuilt the Bible Index and also tried reindexing KJV itself, but it still comes up with zero results.
Works fine in other versions:
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Going out on a limb here, Integ. but what KJV you are actually using? There are a number of resources called KJV and not all of them are morphologically tagged/sense-tagged.
Have joy in the Lord!
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I am using the one that is tagged, the KJV 1900. Each part of the search does work individually, it's just when you throw in the "WITHIN 0 WORDS" that it fails:
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Integ said:
This search (and the other searches built on it) are not working for me in the KJV 1900. They work in the ESV and NIV for me, however.
I'm not able to reproduce this problem:
What is the support info for your KJV1900? I have:
LLS:KJV1900
2014-11-13T00:16:50Z
KJV1900.logos4RVI:KJV1900NT
2014-11-13T00:05:12Z
KJV1900NT.lbsrviRVI:KJV1900OT
2014-11-13T00:05:12Z
KJV1900OT.lbsrviAnyone else seeing (or not seeing) this problem?
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I cannot reproduce the problem either. Everything is functioning normally for me.
Here's my support info, which appears to be the same as Bradley's:
LLS:KJV1900
2014-11-13T00:16:50Z
KJV1900.logos4RVI:KJV1900NT
2014-11-13T00:05:12Z
KJV1900NT.lbsrviRVI:KJV1900OT
2014-11-13T00:05:12Z
KJV1900OT.lbsrviMyke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College0 -
What is the support info for your KJV1900?
Looks to be the same:
LLS:KJV1900
2014-11-13T00:16:50Z
KJV1900.logos4RVI:KJV1900NT
2014-11-13T00:05:12Z
KJV1900NT.lbsrviRVI:KJV1900OT
2014-11-13T00:05:12Z
KJV1900OT.lbsrvi0 -
Integ said:
Looks to be the same:
LLS:KJV1900
2014-11-13T00:16:50Z
KJV1900.logos4RVI:KJV1900NT
2014-11-13T00:05:12Z
KJV1900NT.lbsrviRVI:KJV1900OT
2014-11-13T00:05:12Z
KJV1900OT.lbsrviI was able to reproduce this, and Bradley figured out this seems to have broken when we fixed another issue. I've created a case.
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Dylan Rondeau said:
I was able to reproduce this, and Bradley figured out this seems to have broken when we fixed another issue. I've created a case.
That's awesome; thanks guys!
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Dylan Rondeau said:
I was able to reproduce this, and Bradley figured out this seems to have broken when we fixed another issue. I've created a case.
Dylan, if we can ask, what was the issue? Just curious since most of us did not experience it nor were able to reproduce it.
Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College0 -
Myke Harbuck said:
Dylan, if we can ask, what was the issue? Just curious since most of us did not experience it nor were able to reproduce it.
I'm not a developer, so it's mostly over my head, but my understanding is that if your index for the KJV1900 had been created in the past X amount of time (which isn't a guarantee since the resource hasn't been updated recently) you would get Integ's issue. If your index was from before then, you'd get proper results.
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There is a problem with the KJV1900 resource that is preventing word proximity searches from working (for some users). We will fix this by rebuilding the resource and shipping an update. In the meantime, you can work around it by switching your search to use "CHARS" instead of "WORDS":
((<Sense ~ child>, <Sense child (endearment)>) WITHIN 0 CHARS <LogosMorphGr ~ NV???>)
(If you're using more than "0 WORDS", you'd have to use an estimate of CHARS, e.g, 1 WORDS = 6 CHARS, 2 WORDS = 12 CHARS, etc., and weed out the false positives.)
For those who are interested, it's related to the fix for this previous searching bug; at the time, we didn't realise that fixing it would introduce this problem: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/113077.aspx
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Dylan Rondeau said:
if your index for the KJV1900 had been created in the past X amount of time (which isn't a guarantee since the resource hasn't been updated recently) you would get Integ's issue. If your index was from before then, you'd get proper results.
Interesting! When I first tested this it was working for me, then when I suggested reindexing, I decided to do that simply to see how much time it would take to do a single resource. Now I's got the issue!😩 Not a big deal for me, however, since the ESV is where I do my in-depth study.
It's good for me to see a real live example of how fixing one bug may introduce another, albeit a more subtle one!
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There is a problem with the KJV1900 resource that is preventing word proximity searches from working (for some users). We will fix this by rebuilding the resource and shipping an update.
I got this update today, and it resolved the issue. Thank you!
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