Dictionary of Classical Hebrew - Links to other Resources
There are dozens of references in DCH that are not linked to resources currently available from Logos (and that I have in my library). Is this how it is supposed to be? If it is, this has not been my experience with many other resources in my Logos library.
For instance, one of my favourite words to lookup in a resource in order to see how it is treated is the word hesed. In DCH it is in Vol 3 on page 397. Here I find a number of resources referenced; however, when I click on them, nothing happens except for the ability to copy the bibliography information. One reference is to 'The Word Hesed in the Hebrew Bible', which is volume 157 of the 'Journal for the Study of the Old Testament, Supplement Series 157'. I have the resource in my library, but DCH has no link/hyperlink.
Another is the word gebira (Vol. 2, page 616). There is a reference to JSOTSup 67, JBL 110, and JBL 112. All of which are available from Logos and all of which I have. But none of these resources open when I click on them.
And the list goes on...I have found literally dozens.
So, am I missing something?
Comments
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I'm sorry for the problems you've found, Wayne: i'll fill a case to have them looked at.
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Wayne Clarke said:
So, am I missing something?
Yes, apparently you're missing the links. I note that in the library the individual supplement numbers do not appear. I'm sure this would make it somewhat difficult to link to the proper volume. Perhaps Logos should edit the titles to include the volume number.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Wayne Clarke said:
So, am I missing something?
Yes, apparently you're missing the links. I note that in the library the individual supplement numbers do not appear. I'm sure this would make it somewhat difficult to link to the proper volume. Perhaps Logos should edit the titles to include the volume number.
The bibliographic information is there and it displays when you hover over the text, so it should be incredibly simple to link to the resources. No? That is how it works for the majority of my other resources--especially references to journals.
Further, for many of the missing links I have found in the DCH, the full information is included as part of the title of the resource being referenced--that is, it is part of the text without having to hover over the text to see the further bibliographic details. See the graphic below for an example for the JSOTSup 67, JBL 110, and 112. All the details of the resource, volume number, and even the specific page numbers are clearly displayed.
Shouldn't this make it super easy to link the resources properly?
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Sean Boisen said:
I'm sorry for the problems you've found, Wayne: i'll fill a case to have them looked at.
Thank-you for having it looked into.
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Wayne Clarke said:
Shouldn't this make it super easy to link the resources properly?
Yes for people; not necessarily for computer.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Wayne Clarke said:
Shouldn't this make it super easy to link the resources properly?
To take your example of JSOTSup67, it's only easy if Sup67 is identified (which is not done in the library). It would require identifying each volume by number first,
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Wayne Clarke said:
Shouldn't this make it super easy to link the resources properly?
To take your example of JSOTSup67, it's only easy if Sup67 is identified (which is not done in the library). It would require identifying each volume by number first,
For the example of JSOTSup67, you are correct--the resource is not 'known' in my library by Volume 67 of the JSOTSup journal series BUT it is easily identified by the name "Ascribe to the Lord: Biblical and Other Studies....' That name, along with the proper sub-section, page reference and section author name is all listed in DCH. So, why isn't it linked along with dozens of others. So, as you can see from the graphic below...it cannot be that tough when all in the information is clearly in the text of DCH.
From the DCH resource....Cyrus H. Gordon, ‘Ugaritic RBT/RABITU’, in Ascribe to the Lord: Biblical and Other Studies in Memory of Peter C. Craigie (ed. Lyle Eslinger and Glen Taylor; JSOTSup, 67; Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1988), pp. 127–32
And unlike the JSOT journal series, many journals in our libraries are easily found by journal name and volume number alone. And that is the case with JBL 110 and 112 which is the other resources that are not linked in the example I started off this thread with. See the graphic below.
From the DCH resource...Zafrira Ben-Barak, ‘The Status and Right of the Gĕbîrâ’, JBL 110 (1991), pp. 23–34; Susan Ackerman, ‘The Queen Mother and the Cult in Ancient Israel’, JBL 112 (1993), pp. 385–401
So, again this is not that difficult to link properly. All the information is clearly in DCH to link to the proper resources in Logos.
And, please know, I am not trying to be difficult. But this is ONE of the reasons why I (typically) pay a premium price for Logos products--they are supposed to have the added value features of being properly linked and tagged to other Logos resources. No?
Yes, DCH links to TDOT and for that I am extremely appreciative and it is a huge time save!
However, there are dozens of examples in DCH that do not link to journals/other resources that are available in Logos. If I should not be expecting the type of functionality I am describing from DCH, then someone please tell me as much. But from what I have seen from many other resources in my library (I have about 19,500 resources in Logos), this IS the type of functionality that I have come to expect and use.
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You've not yet answered my question - easily identified by machine or by people? There is a significant difference in cost. It is my observation that there is considerably more machine tagging than manual tagging in most resources ... the linguistic data and the curated datasets being the primary examples of manual tagging. The other thing we need to know is which journals were available before the TCH entered the production cycle. I don't think Faithlife uses an reinterative production process.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Wayne Clarke said:
For the example of JSOTSup67, you are correct--the resource is not 'known' in my library by Volume 67 of the JSOTSup journal series BUT it is easily identified by the name "Ascribe to the Lord: Biblical and Other Studies....'
It works for the particular text you mention, but elsewhere JSOTSup67 is listed without title so it isn't as simple as you might wish to think.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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MJ. Smith said:
You've not yet answered my question - easily identified by machine or by people? There is a significant difference in cost. It is my observation that there is considerably more machine tagging than manual tagging in most resources ... the linguistic data and the curated datasets being the primary examples of manual tagging.
Hi MJ. Sorry, but I thought your post was simply a single sentence statement. I did not see any question associated with "Yes for people; not necessarily for computer." so I did not realize I was to provide you an answer.
Now that I understand you were asking a question, I have to respond with "it depends". It depends on the technology in play, the expertise of the humans, the salary of the humans, the nature of the original material from the vendor, et cetera. And most importantly, the complexity of the resource and language must play into the "it depends" discussion as well. DCH is to me a complex resource.
Further, I do not know the specific and detailed internal workings of Logos and how they tag, link, convert, et cetera resources and with what combination of automation versus manual intervention they use. I assume from reading various posts in these forums over the years that it is a combination of both systems/software and people involved with getting a resource into production. I understand that for various resources where there is no text from the vendor that it is a predominantly manual function performed by people or validating OCR scans. For something like DCH, I have no idea what percentage of human effort versus automated effort is involved, but I would assume they have received a fairly elaborate/detailed electronic version of the material.
To your point about "significant difference in cost", I guess it depends on the acquisition costs of the human resources versus the automated technology used with associated manpower and what degree of validation/proofing is done. Certainly, off-shore resources are much less expensive than on-shore (USA) resources. In producing a resource like DCH, I understand that Faithlife has determined (or estimated) up front the overall cost and time associated with bringing the resource with specific functionality into Logos. What I do not know MJ is what functionality/linking is supposed to be in DCH.
Regardless of all this, I am not trying to debate the merits / costs of manual versus automation or some combination thereof. To me, that is not the issue. Simply, if my expectations of having the numerous journal references within DCH linked to those Logos resources (where they are already available in Logos) is too great of an expectation, then I will accept that response and right-size my expectations accordingly in the future. If however, the links should be there are were missed during the production phase, then I guess it needs to be addressed.
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George Somsel said:Wayne Clarke said:
For the example of JSOTSup67, you are correct--the resource is not 'known' in my library by Volume 67 of the JSOTSup journal series BUT it is easily identified by the name "Ascribe to the Lord: Biblical and Other Studies....'
It works for the particular text you mention, but elsewhere JSOTSup67 is listed without title so it isn't as simple as you might wish to think.
Hi George. Thanks for the reply. Maybe you can provide specific examples of where you are seeing JSOTSup67 listed without the title of the resource or the other details not being provided. So that I can see what you are seeing. Because for every instance of JSOTSup67 I can see, the same level of detail is provided in DCH. The list is below.
iron—A.R. Millard, ‘King Og’s Bed and Other Ancient Ironmongery’, in Ascribe to the Lord: Biblical and Other Studies in Memory of Peter C. Craigie (ed. Lyle Eslinger and Glen Taylor; JSOTSup, 67; Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1988), pp. 481–92
flesh—Wilfred G.E. Watson, ‘Some Additional Word Pairs’, in Ascribe to the Lord: Biblical and Other Studies in Memory of Peter C. Craigie (ed. Lyle Eslinger and Glen Taylor; JSOTSup, 67; Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1988), pp. 179–201 (185–87)
queen— Cyrus H. Gordon, ‘Ugaritic RBT/RABITU’, in Ascribe to the Lord: Biblical and Other Studies in Memory of Peter C. Craigie (ed. Lyle Eslinger and Glen Taylor; JSOTSup, 67; Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1988), pp. 127–32
queen—compared with גְּבִירָה queen-mother—C.H. Gordon, ‘Ugaritic RBT/RAABÎTU’, in Ascribe to the Lord: Biblical and Other Studies in Memory of Peter C. Craigie (ed. Lyle Eslinger and Glen Taylor; JSOT Sup, 67; Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1988), pp. 127–32.
string—Ps 45:9—A. Caquot, ‘Cinq observations sur le Psaume 45’, in Ascribe to the Lord: Biblical and Other Studies in Memory of Peter C. Craigie (ed. Lyle Eslinger and Glen Taylor; JSOTSup, 67; Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1988), pp. 253–64 (257–58).
silver dross, silver-leaf—H.H.P. Dressler, ‘The Lesson of Proverbs 26:23’, in Ascribe to the Lord: Biblical and Other Studies in Memory of Peter C. Craigie (ed. Lyle Eslinger and Glen Taylor; JSOTSup, 67; Sheffield: JSOT press, 1988), pp. 117–25 (124).
and, as well as—M. Dietrich and O. Loretz, ‘Von hebräisch ‘m // lpny (Ps 72,5) zu ugaritisch ‘m “vor” ’, in Ascribe to the Lord: Biblical and Other Studies in Memory of Peter C. Craigie (ed. Lyle Eslinger and Glen Taylor; JSOTSup, 67; Sheffield: JSOT press, 1988), pp. 109–16.
before, by—M. Dietrich and O. Loretz, ‘Von hebräisch ‘m // lpny (Ps 72,5) zu ugaritisch ‘m “vor” ’, in Ascribe to the Lord: Biblical and Other Studies in Memory of Peter C. Craigie (ed. Lyle Eslinger and Glen Taylor; JSOTSup, 67; Sheffield: JSOT press, 1988), pp. 109–16.
Philistia—R.K. Harrison, ‘Philistine Origins: A Reappraisal’, in Ascribe to the Lord: Biblical and Other Studies in Memory of Peter C. Craigie (ed. Lyle Eslinger and Glen Taylor; JSOTSup, 67; Sheffield: JSOT press, 1988), pp. 11–19.
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Wayne Clarke said:
What I do not know MJ is what functionality/linking is supposed to be in DCH.
Nor do I. However, your post led me to believe that you underestimated the difficulty of automating the process. Generally, I assume that what is easily automated will be linked if the resource linked to was released to users before the resource linked from went into production. That which must be manually tagged my expectations are much more dependent upon the resource - if the tagging is essential to the usefulness of the resource, I expect it to be present. If the tagging is simply linking general references I lower my expectations. My personal concern is that there are areas of functional references that Logos does not support - references to primary materials but not a specific edition. Here the user often does not know the abbreviations and it takes many minutes to decipher the link, build a search and find the correct location in a resource. In secondary references referring to a specific editions it is reasonably easy to see if you own the resource and find the location it in. What you lose in manually opening is a couple of minutes and the option to purchase it if it is in Faithlife but not your library.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Wayne Clarke said:
The bibliographic information is there and it displays when you hover over the text, so it should be incredibly simple to link to the resources. No?
Sort of.
We've done half the work: tagging the citations so that the system knows it's a link to a specific page in a specific article in a specific journal.
The other half is still an ongoing project for us: tagging the destination resources correctly so that the system can link the two together at runtime. When it's done, you should be able to jump seamlessly to the referenced article. Unfortunately, I don't have an estimate for when that will be available.
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Wayne Clarke said:
The bibliographic information is there and it displays when you hover over the text, so it should be incredibly simple to link to the resources. No?
Sort of.
We've done half the work: tagging the citations so that the system knows it's a link to a specific page in a specific article in a specific journal.
The other half is still an ongoing project for us: tagging the destination resources correctly so that the system can link the two together at runtime. When it's done, you should be able to jump seamlessly to the referenced article.
Bradley,
your answer first was really confusing to me, especially the part "tagging the destination resource" was throwing me off, as I understood this as requiring work in the target resources, but on further deliberation I think there is an ambiguity here and you mean something different.
"Tagging" in the sense of enhancing the resource text with additional information that allows seamless linking between resources is something hotly debated as it is the core of Logos' value proposition over mere ebooks. Thus I'd like to fully understand your remark.
Coming from the picture and description Wayne shared in this post above, I see that cited resource titles are in blue fontcolor, indicating links. From both his and your description, I assume those links should go to a bibliography within DCH - and maybe they do. So, with mouse over or clicking once or twice, I'd be informed that JBL stands for 'Journal of Biblical Literature', like you do in the revised ISBE in the references that go with ISBE's article on Abba.
Maybe DCH even uses the 'new' version of such bibliographic links occasionally or throughout, which looks like this reference to an article in TDOT:
or the same for a reference to the article αββα in TDNT.
Do I understand you correct, that one of the above is what you meant with the "first part" that is done?
Since I never have heard that there needs to be tagging work in a resource to receive links (i.e. being referred to) - after all, 'Copy location as URL' technically is nothing different and does not even need a page index to work - I no longer think you were talking about the need to add something useful such as datatype and headword indexes to the destination resources (even if that was the straightforward reading of "tagging the destination resources" that immediately came up in my ESL brain), but rather some link to those resources. I hope you can confirm that.
I now understand your "second part" to make changes to DCH so that links not only point to the abbreviations or the bibliographic entries, but actually allow opening the resource from the library (or the 'you don't have a licence'-tab).
The point I'm not so sure about is what you are intending to do - just link those resources to their first page? TDNT is linked as such in my ISBE example:
This is nice and not too much work for your text production team (well, nevertheless it seems they failed many possible links when updating ISBE the last time) - and since I remember explanations that Faithlife on principle doesn't want to link library resources, but only specific pages (great for the non-page-specific citation style modern authors use, such as NT Wright in his scholarly works), I'm glad to see that something has changed.
But if this is the second step you have in mind, it will probably not be what the users expect to happen. Actually, in the case of ISBE I expect the link to the αββα article in TDNT to allow me to open that article (which I understand once was a designed feature of the 'new' citation-style reference "below the line" but didn't work due to a bug - I remember an old thread by Mark Barnes ages ago). And in Wayne's example above, I assume he expects JBL to open exactly at page 23 of vol 110/1991 (one could even imagine ISBE linking to page 79 of vol 72/1953 in my example article...).
In fact, ISBE has such links in the text of the article, at least to TDNT:
however, what makes me nervous about that "first part is done" thing is that this ISBE reference to a specific TDNT page shows the page number in blue (the reference to TDOT page 17 doesn't, and consequently there's no link anywhere, just the not-linked explanation what TDOT stands for) - and all the page numbers I see in Wayne's screenshot are black. Which means, if I correctly understand the second step to be a link to those resources that have been identified, this won't fulfill the expectations many users develop based on the Logos value proposition they understand.
But maybe my understanding is wrong - could you please clarify?
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
Since I never have heard that there needs to be tagging work in a resource to receive links (i.e. being referred to) - after all, 'Copy location as URL' technically is nothing different and does not even need a page index to work - I no longer think you were talking about the need to add something useful such as datatype and headword indexes to the destination resources (even if that was the straightforward reading of "tagging the destination resources" that immediately came up in my ESL brain), but rather some link to those resources. I hope you can confirm that.
Here are some of the problems with Copy location as URL:
- Only works for resources currently in the system; can't accommodate future resources
- Only links to a specific resource ID (see numerous forum threads about the problems caused by having multiple distinct IDs for Greek Grammar Beyond The Basics or a handful of other similarly affected resources)
- Only links to a point, with no semantics of the range being cited (e.g., a specific page vs an entire journal article)
We want to fix these problems, but it requires additional "metadata" (probably a better word than "tagging").
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NB.Mick said:
the reference to TDOT page 17 doesn't, and consequently there's no link anywhere, just the not-linked explanation what TDOT stands for
There is now a data type for TDOT (there wasn't when ISBE was first produced), so I'd expect the text "I, 17–19" to be updated with a data type reference link. ISBE is high on the priority list of resources to update with TDOT links.
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Wayne Clarke said:
The bibliographic information is there and it displays when you hover over the text, so it should be incredibly simple to link to the resources. No?
Sort of.
We've done half the work: tagging the citations so that the system knows it's a link to a specific page in a specific article in a specific journal.
The other half is still an ongoing project for us: tagging the destination resources correctly so that the system can link the two together at runtime. When it's done, you should be able to jump seamlessly to the referenced article. Unfortunately, I don't have an estimate for when that will be available.
Bradley,
I very much appreciate the responses you have provided in this thread and understand it is a two-pronged approach for the originating and destination resources. However, I do have a question. If the work on the DCH side is already done so as to include the link to a specific page in a specific article of a specific journal, then for the interim (until the work on the destination resources is complete) could the link not simply open the destination journal to the first page as a 'fall-back' measure when it cannot 'reach' the specific article/page number? Nothing would change or need to be updated for the originating resource, simply click on the blue link and if you cannot be taken to a specific location, simply have the resource opened to the title page.
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Wayne Clarke said:
Nothing would change or need to be updated for the originating resource, simply click on the blue link and if you cannot be taken to a specific location, simply have the resource opened to the title page.
The information ("metadata") required by the program to perform this operation is not present in the system. This is the second half of the process I mentioned above, and until it's ready, we can't find the correct destination for the link.
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NB.Mick said:
the reference to TDOT page 17 doesn't, and consequently there's no link anywhere, just the not-linked explanation what TDOT stands for
There is now a data type for TDOT (there wasn't when ISBE was first produced), so I'd expect the text "I, 17–19" to be updated with a data type reference link. ISBE is high on the priority list of resources to update with TDOT links.
The updated ISBE is now available for download. (You may already have received it if you have automatic downloads enabled.)
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