BUG: very annoying loss of detail information in saved layout

I had built a layout that carefully had examples of each type of entry in Factbook including

Biblical person - Adam
Biblical place - Jericho (Old Testament)
Biblical thing - Earth
Biblical event - God creates the heavens and the earth
Biography - Thomas Aquinas
Topic - Creation
Preaching theme - Creation
Culture - The creation

When I reloaded the saved layout the last three all showed Event - Creation a composite event that was not what I wanted. The three as I saved them differed in content and in the Searches that they build. Yes Bradley has told me that I can't select by entity type in Factbook (I can) which implies that he thinks the results are the same (they aren't ... and I would argue shouldn't be). But I should at least be able to believe that what I save is what I get back.

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Bradley Grainger (Logos)

The three as I saved them differed in content

They shouldn't; this is a bug.

Yes Bradley has told me that I can't select by entity type in Factbook (I can)

You shouldn't be able to; this is a bug.

which implies that he thinks the results are the same (they aren't ... and I would argue shouldn't be).

They should be; this is a bug.

But I should at least be able to believe that what I save is what I get back.

Once the other bugs have been fixed, you shouldn't be able to save different Factbook instances... so this should be fixed?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/803564#Comment_803564

The differences often are reflected by the Search argument, but also by the See Also and less often in the sections or variations in the content of sections ..,

Note that the difference between Topic and Preaching Theme reflects the difference in the Search arguments for the Sermon Starter Guide and Topic Guides ....

I'll give you a bit of time to fix this before I do a TIP of the day on it ... which doesn't mean that I agree with the fix, merely that it's not worth arguing over unless others agree with me.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/803570#Comment_803570

There is a lot of variability in the menu results for "creation" e.g.

Initially, I'll see Themes, Topics, Events relating to Creation
I won't see Topic Creation unless I type <Topic Creation
I won't see Preaching Theme Creation unless I type <PreachingTheme Creation
after selecting one of the types, I'll only see entries for that type e.g. events, unless I re-type creation

So I would like a better understanding of Bradley's comments implying there should not be an Event, a PreachingTheme and a Topic entry for Creation (presumably other subjects as well).

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/803690#Comment_803690

This is the second time recently Bradley and I have hit this issue. I suspect that Bradley's point of view is that there should be a single ontology underlying all the Factbook entries. If that is his POV, then I agree. The problem then comes on how one identifies an entry. Here I would claim that there is a difference is scope and nuance between the cultural concept "creation" which includes deicide, the event of creation which emphatically does not include deicide, and current definitions of topic and preaching theme where the latter are much more coarsely grained than the former. Because I believe that some aspects of the system should be limited to the Judeo-Christian Scripture and other parts expanded to include pseudepigraphia, rabbinc literature, ancient near-eastern literature, I cannot agree that the Preaching Theme should have the same scope as the Topic or Cultural Concept. Therefore, I see a single ontology in which the entity type is part of the identifier rather than adding the complexity of providing separate descriptive names.

As I see it, the Factbook should reflect the same distinctions as the Guides which from my perspective are sometimes already too broad to be useful. For example, I do not consider deicide a part of the event of Creation in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I consider agriculture primarily to be part of the chapter 3 story and therefore not part of creation. I consider Genesis 1-2 as two separate narratives of creation. None of these positions are unusual even though they are not universal.

I think of the distinctions loosely in this way:

Biblical events are limited to the narrative as related in the Bible - one or more times
Preaching Theme is limited to Judeo-Christian materials; these are few and broad
Topic because of its ties to LCV is limited to Judeo-Christian materials plus Near Eastern materials; these are many and narrow
Cultural Concept is unlimited

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/803695#Comment_803695

Therefore, I see a single ontology in which the entity type is part of the identifier rather than adding the complexity of providing separate descriptive names.

For Creation, the immediate problem is the omission of all entries that have that name i.e. the topic, the preaching theme, and the inclusion of unrelated entries e.g. deicide, "production and creation of goods". This also applies to other subjects e.g. Agriculture, which includes the event Creation.

Sean Boisen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/803958#Comment_803958

Our general strategy in Factbook is to lump things that are split elsewhere (in our data, and perhaps in other guides), to simply things for the searcher. You shouldn't have to think about the kind of thing you're searching for, at least not for starters, and we sometimes have more specific guides (like Topic Guide and Sermon Starter Guide) with slightly more detail and different focus or behavior. Our standard of correctness is that every Factbook page should have a distinct label.

I can't quite reproduce your behavior (and i'm not on the beta). The closest I can get in 6.9 (Mac) is pages like:

"Creation" the event: logos4:Factbook;ref=bk.*creationepisode. The content from the SSG page for "creation" (logos4:Guide;t=Sermon_Starter_Guide;ref=bk.pt:Creation) gets merged in here.
"Creation: Renewal" the preaching theme (logos4:Factbook;ref=bk.pt:Creation$5FRenewal)
"Cosmology" the topic (logos4:Factbook;ref=bk.$25cosmology), which has "Creation" as an alias so you can find it.
"Creation by deicide" the cultural concept (logos4:Factbook;ref=lco.Creation$5Fby$5Fdeicide).

I'd argue that finding all these by various searches involving the string "creation" is correct, but displaying them as your screen shots do is not. It's possible something is misbehaving in the beta: i'll see if somebody can reproduce this.

Sean Boisen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/803695#Comment_803695

I think of the distinctions loosely in this way:

Biblical events are limited to the narrative as related in the Bible - one or more times

Preaching Theme is limited to Judeo-Christian materials; these are few and broad

Topic because of its ties to LCV is limited to Judeo-Christian materials plus Near Eastern materials; these are many and narrow

Cultural Concept is unlimited

Your first three points are correct.

While in theory cultural concepts could be unlimited, in our practice they're really a specialized subset of the LCV that we've invested some extra effort in (including annotation outside the Bible). Cultural practices outside the biblical domain are outside our scope of interest.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/804238#Comment_804238

Thank you Sean. I now better understand why Bradley expected different behavior than I. The way to duplicate my results is by entering something like <Topic Creation> or <PreachingTheme Creation>. To me, this seemed like an obvious thing to enter for several reasons:

That is what I would enter in a basic search
That is what the icons associated with the text implies
That is what the presence of the class beside the text implies
That is what is necessary when an item needs disambiguation e.g. is both personal name and a place name

There is nothing other than the Factbook in the system that would cause me to equate the Topic Creation with the Event Creation or the Preaching Theme Creation as each of the uses a different selection criteria when selecting resources whether within a Guide or within a Search. So I find it confusing to have Factbook combine them into what is to me yet another entity Factbook Creation. Obviously, the fact that it is not working as intended only makes the results even more confusing.

I do understand why for a new user having Factbook having multiple occurrences of what would appear to be the same thing would be confusing. As a beta tester when Preaching Theme and Topic were introduced there was much confusion over the difference. So with a bit of a shudder, I have to agree that a single Factbook entry makes sense - if it were working correctly. However, when it is working correctly, I will make the suggestion that it isn't sufficient for users doing serious research and that the ability of access Factbook by the narrower entity type should also be possible as it is now - even if by accident.