Change in dynamic pricing for everything
I noticed a question on another thread about the change in dynamic pricing of a particular product.
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/123397/806127.aspx#806127
An answer was given by FL which speaks of a more general change on all products.
"Yes, we made multiple changes recently that impact Dynamic Pricing across all products.
We changed the formula used to calculate the price which resulted in a small change to all Dynamic Prices across the board.
In addition, we made adjustments to the SRP of a large number of resources. This number is the basis by which Dynamic Pricing is calculated. Many of these had not been maintained over time. We both raised and lowered them to as closely match the regular price shown on the web as possible.
As a result of both of these changes, the Dynamic Price on any given collection could go up or down for any individual. What you would experience depends on what SRP changes were made to resources in the collection, and whether you owned or did not own those resources."
I checked my prices for base packages this morning and all of them have increased, most significantly in the standard base package. I suppose this should come as no surprise with all of the recent, rapid changes we've been experiencing but it's very disappointing. This change affects customers who have already invested in Logos products and increases the price of completing collections or base packages.
Surely the recent tightening of the belt with the major reduction in employees and investment in certain areas of the business should have brought massive savings to the company and made price increases like this unnecessary.
I am really sad to say that for me it represents one further reason to be hesitant about continuing to buy Logos software. I am really disappointed that like all of the other changes, it was not communicated to customers generally but discovered almost accidentally by a Logos user who was fortunate enough to be answered by a FL employee on the forum.
Colin.
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Yeah I actually was told about this change before this other post also in a similar thread.
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/122737.aspx
In all my cases all of my dynamic prices went UP. I'm in a similar boat, honestly it does look like the ship is starting to sink at FL.. At least they seem lost a bit right now..
Way too much swirl going on to make anyone feel comfortable.
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My new DP on base packages has increased anywhere from $50 to almost $1000 (Collector's). Unacceptable.
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I've spent over $41K on Logos and found Collector's DP has increased for me as well. I guess they'll never get the kind of money they've received from me over the past 8 or 9 years. Again, for the fourth or fifth time this week, we should have been informed about these increases that were planned, so we might get in before the increases. I'm disgusted.
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I've grown weary of the ongoing complaints about pricing. Logos has given out numerous free and generous discounts on products for as long as I've used their software. And God has proven to me time and again, that He has bestowed on me blessings through other individuals who have paid for many Logos resources in full.
We are prone to sounding like a bunch of spoiled brats in our rants. There's millions of people who don't even have a Bible.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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I only checked the upgrade to one of the base packages and it looks to be about the same. It may have went up about $3.00.
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mab said:
I've grown weary of the ongoing complaints about pricing. Logos has given out numerous free and generous discounts on products for as long as I've used their software. And God has proven to me time and again, that He has bestowed on me blessings through other individuals who have paid for many Logos resources in full.
We are prone to sounding like a bunch of spoiled brats in our rants. There's millions of people who don't even have a Bible.
I have likewise grown weary of those who criticize our complaints of how Logos operates. We pay fairly (even more so?) for what we have. Their frequency of freebies do not speak to the quality of said freebies (sometimes good, most times not).
Counting myself blessed for having a Bible, 23 according to Logos, I also count myself blessed for having a software to use with it. That does not mean that I cannot offer my thoughts, suggestions, and disappointments with Logos about my investment (well over $10,000) and continuing patronage of their products. They are a Christian business, but they are still a business. And one that charges a premium to use.
However, our complaints/gripes/rants should be tempered with grace. That doesn't mean to not be offered at all.
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Ronald Quick said:
I only checked the upgrade to one of the base packages and it looks to be about the same. It may have went up about $3.00.
Same here - I'm not seeing any big changes.
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It looks like the big thing that Faithlife did was to update their pricing data on a large number of products, which it seems as though they hadn't done in a long time, if ever. I'm having trouble figuring out why correcting outdated data is a bad idea.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Prices change. So. I wish everything in the world was free or cheap (inexpensive), but alas it isn't. So, for better or worse, Logos updates prices and I decide whether or not I will buy. Some things I want, I won't buy. Some things, as God provides and asking for His wisdom, I probably will.
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My reason for posting was not so much the fact that prices have increased - that is, as many have pointed out, a normal part of business life. I hadn't intended to complain about that. (Though as I re-read my post I realise that's how it comes across). In fact the FL employee also said that some prices have gone down (though no-one has noticed that or posted about it!) My reason for posting was actually to keep everyone informed about the change in the way dynamic pricing is calculated. This was mentioned in a post referring to a specific resource which perhaps everyone wouldn't be interested enough to click on and read. But it's an important post. This is a massive change! It affects every one of us whether we upgrade base packages or buy individual products as they go on sale (or are offered free) with the intention of completing the series/collection/package at some later date. We will now, it seems, be getting even less dynamic pricing discount than before.
There was already quite a complicated formula for calculating dynamic pricing but we had become familiar with it and MVPs like Mark Barnes often explained it on these forums. It was a fair application of Faithlife's policy not to charge us for the same resources twice.
I haven't attempted to work out the new formula but Glenn Airoldi said it does not only take into consideration the usual selling price of the resources we have already bought but also other factors....
Since dynamic pricing on a collection can affect our decision whether or not to purchase an individual resource I thought everyone should be aware of this through a more general forum post.
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One further implication of this for me and for anyone else who has pre-ordered journal collections is that the price we pre-ordered them at in pre-pub. has now increased! I ordered them back in December for a certain price (and have an email to that effect) but the site now tells me I ordered them at a price which is reflective of the new way dynamic pricing is calculated.
I can accept perhaps that Faithlife does not make a practice of advertising price increase policies. But where an order has been placed and the terms of that order have now been changed I think we should be getting an email to alert us of the change in price and the reason for it. Is that too much to ask?
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I dunno. Maybe that depends.
Suppose I sell mousetraps for $10. I discover that times have changed and my profit is a mere 10 cents. I better change the price! Do I owe it to all my customers to tell them beforehand that I am going to raise the price?
If i am raising the price as a marketing ploy to get people to buy now, then I would climb a tree and holler. Otherwise, maybe I wouldn't. Just a thought.
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I would echo the sentiment of some with regard to excessive complaining, especially considering our abundance and the destitute estate of many in the world, including from among the people of God.
It is natural to want better deals and freebies and to be a bit disappointed that the deals are not as good, but the only question that matters is whether the changes are equitable or not (Matthew 20:12–13). Dynamic pricing is not a favour considering that one has already paid for a product. FL does not have to offer it, but it would be a deterrent to buying collections when one has already paid for individual volumes. So, it is not a favor, but an equitable practice. The rate of dynamic pricing needs also to be equitable, that is, proportionate to value spent and the remaining value of the collection. I have not read a comment yet that claims that the new adjustments are not equitable from that vantage point. Until proof of the contrary, I would assume that they are equitable.
What is not equitable is to raise the price of a pre-order: it should be locked at what it was when one pre-ordered it. I think this is a fair request. I would imagine that this may not be an effect of the dynamic pricing adjustment that has been necessarily thought through. I would suggest, for those to whom it applies, bringing it up to sales.
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I love your illustration Gao!
It is a slightly different scenario though. Here's how I would describe it using your example:
If I was a regular customer and phoned you and asked how much the mousetraps were, you might say, 'Well, they won't come in until next week but they're $10' and I said 'That's a great price! I'll buy one.' But then when you place the order from your supplier you find you'll need to charge $10.50. Do you not think you might pick up the phone and let me know before I drive in that the mousetrap will be in next week but you'll need to charge me more?
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I checked some of the items I had on my wish list- yes they have gone up, enough for me to remove them, will not purchase them now unless I hit the lottery.
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Colin said:
I can accept perhaps that Faithlife does not make a practice of advertising price increase policies. But where an order has been placed and the terms of that order have now been changed I think we should be getting an email to alert us of the change in price and the reason for it. Is that too much to ask?
FWIW, I think that's the least Faithlife can do. My order on the Master Bundle has gone up by 8%.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Agreed! Raise prices if you want, but not on already placed orders. That is akin to bait and switch.
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That's a known issue. There's a discussion going on in the German forum. Prices of existing order are supposed to be changed back.
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Prices for quotes already issued by our inside sales staff (phone orders) for Dynamically Priced products are locked in, and can be processed at the quoted price at any time.
There are some pre-pub collections which include already published resources where the Dynamic Price was subject to change, because those are not systematically locked, given the amount of time that can pass between order and shipment. Each of these instances are being addressed individually prior to pre-pubs shipping.
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Glenn Airoldi said:
Prices for quotes already issued by our inside sales staff (phone orders) for Dynamically Priced products are locked in, and can be processed at the quoted price at any time.
There are some pre-pub collections which include already published resources where the Dynamic Price was subject to change, because those are not systematically locked, given the amount of time that can pass between order and shipment. Each of these instances are being addressed individually prior to pre-pubs shipping.
Well that is as clear as mud!
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So much for "under contract" as a description for prepubs.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Not sure I follow the message from Glenn. The price on the Master journal prepub I preordered last September has gone up from $424 to $446 in the last few days. Do you mean that will now go back to the original price?
Jim
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Jim Snowden said:
Do you mean that will now go back to the original price?
Yes, and will be addressed individually when the items ship (according to Glen).
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Jim, how we will address this is still being worked out. We may adjust the price, we may issue offsetting credit, we may do something else. In any event, we will handle each instance individually, and do the right thing for every impacted customer.
In explanation of how Pre-Pub prices are locked in: Everyone who places an order for a pre-pub does have that pre-pub locked in at the pre-pub price for the resource or collection at the time the order is placed. However, what's locked in is the price for 100% of the collection. The Dynamic Pricing system calculates (and displays) a lower price for people purchasing only part of the collection based on ownership, and that price can fluctuate. It usually fluctuates only when a customer takes an action like returning an included product or purchasing an included product in the time between placing the order and the pre-pub shipping. In this instance it was the result of an action we took. We, understand the difference, and will make sure to handle this in a way that puts the best interest of our customers first.
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Glenn Airoldi said:
Prices for quotes already issued by our inside sales staff (phone orders) for Dynamically Priced products are locked in, and can be processed at the quoted price at any time.
There are some pre-pub collections which include already published resources where the Dynamic Price was subject to change, because those are not systematically locked, given the amount of time that can pass between order and shipment. Each of these instances are being addressed individually prior to pre-pubs shipping.
And in English that means ? What about people who 'locked in' a price via the website rather than via inside sales staff? Are we to be penalized for not having placed the order with an inside sales staff member, who probably no longer works at Faithlife ? I have no issue with a company reviewing its pricing form time to time - they need to do that to stay in business, but this is not how the pre-pub program has been sold to us, once you order a product the price is locked in at that price you ordered, regardless of whether it was inside sales staff or via the web. This company is lurching form PR nightmare to PR nightmare over the last couple of years And those nightmares seem to be back to back to back lately.
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Thanks Glenn. That makes logical sense about the dynamic pricing changing the prepub pricing for some items. Although it is a bit odd that in the prepub details it says "Preordered in September for $xyz", where xyz is the new increased price, but I didn't preorder at that price in September. Maybe it should say "Preordered in September for $abc; updated due to dynamic pricing changes in February to $xyz"
But I'll wait to see what the solution will be and am sure it will be fine.
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Glenn Airoldi said:
There are some pre-pub collections which include already published resources where the Dynamic Price was subject to change,
Change them on me and I will cancel them.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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if I buy a prepub at a certain price, I authorise you to charge that amount to my credit card when it ships.
What you are now saying is that you will charge more to my card than was agreed and you do not see that this as at best a gross abuse of trust and as worst fraud!
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Even if they go down? [;)]Super.Tramp said:Glenn Airoldi said:There are some pre-pub collections which include already published resources where the Dynamic Price was subject to change,
Change them on me and I will cancel them.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:
Even if they go down?Super.Tramp said:Glenn Airoldi said:There are some pre-pub collections which include already published resources where the Dynamic Price was subject to change,
Change them on me and I will cancel them.
Every change I noticed resulted in an increase.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Every change I noticed resulted in an increase.SineNomine said:
Even if they go down?Super.Tramp said:Glenn Airoldi said:There are some pre-pub collections which include already published resources where the Dynamic Price was subject to change,
Change them on me and I will cancel them.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Colin said:
the price we pre-ordered them at in pre-pub. has now increased!
So I don't misunderstand, are you saying that pre-pub prices were increased on placed pre-pub orders?
I haven't looked mine over, but if this is true, I would have a substantial problem with it. I don't begrudge necessary price increases, and I understand a pre-pub order isn't a contract. But raising an agreed-upon purchase price smacks of something.
Hopefully, I've misunderstood, so I'll abstain from calling foul (yet).
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc - read Glenn's Faithlife statement above ... these will be taken care of. Just a (yet another) consequence that wasn't foreseen.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Which Pre-pubs are highly affected?
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Ugh. Another un-communicated change made capriciously without being thought throughMJ. Smith said:Doc - read Glenn's Faithlife statement above ... these will be taken care of. Just a (yet another) consequence that wasn't foreseen.
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I said it in another thread, and I'll say it again here. It seems like someone comes up with these things friday at 4:55, and they are implemented at 8am on monday.That has to change. Its getting frustrating. I appreciate that they are making it right, but it would save them money, and face if they would simply discuss the change. give it a couple weeks. announce it on the forums. give it a couple weeks. then implement. The discussions and conversations that take place at each stage would help drive back these issues, and make those of us who use the forums feel valued and communicated with.
As is I'm pretty frustrated. I've canceled my Prepubs and CP's with the exception of about 200$, down from several thousand not all that long ago. I've put my wallet on ice to keep me from spending more till my payment plan is satisfied. I had previously planned to pick up each of the classic commentary and studies upgrade packages, but those are canceled. I had previously planned to pick up the master bundle (~800$). I had previously planned to get lutheran, and orthodox gold. But now I'm waiting to see if communication improves. If planning improves. If things start to feel less capricious. Then maybe my spending will begin again. As is my school is pushing another software product pretty hard. I could pick it up for a song. I have a lot invested in Logos; and you always make everything right. But I'd rather my premium product just work right the first time. That is one of the reasons I have an iPhone.... I averaged about 700$ a month last year. This year? I've merely made my monthly payment, and spent maybe 100$ besides.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Mike Pettit said:
if I buy a prepub at a certain price, I authorise you to charge that amount to my credit card when it ships.
What you are now saying is that you will charge more to my card than was agreed and you do not see that this as at best a gross abuse of trust and as worst fraud!
[y]
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Stephen Steele said:Mike Pettit said:
if I buy a prepub at a certain price, I authorise you to charge that amount to my credit card when it ships.
What you are now saying is that you will charge more to my card than was agreed and you do not see that this as at best a gross abuse of trust and as worst fraud!
Mike has entirely missed the point. It's neither a gross abuse of trust, nor a fraud — it was an unforseen consequence of another change. Faithlife have already said they'll sort it out.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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I think that "fraud" is a too strong of a word. As long as FaithLife communicates the changes, whether up or down, nothing deceptive is being done. And FaithLife always sends out an email notifying users of prepubs before they ship.
Just a thought: If I order a prepub and the price drops because of these recent changes, should I still be required to pay the higher price? Of course not - I should pay whatever the cost is when it ships.
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I think you need to issue appropriate apology to all effected users and let them know. How many of them may not even know yet. If not this forum, I would not even know of the silent price increase:
"Preordered on 9/17/2015 for $69.08" is NOT TRUE. Here is my original copy:
Faithlife, as other mentioned, you need to fix it and honor our preordered price. "No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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To answer your question in a word, yes.
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I've got a quick Monday morning update for everyone.
To recap:
We implemented two changes last week that had the unintended consequence of changing the Dynamic Price a user sees on their pre-pub orders.
We're working to solve this problem. No-one will be charged more for their pre-pub than they were originally shown. Please be patient as we work through this.
No impacted pre-pubs are scheduled to ship this week, We will have the fix in place before any do.
Everyone will be notified prior to any pre-pub shipping, as per our usual process.
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Glenn Airoldi said:
No-one will be charged more for their pre-pub than they were originally shown.
Thanks Glenn. I thought this was the case but I was not 100% sure.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Colin said:
One further implication of this for me and for anyone else who has pre-ordered journal collections is that the price we pre-ordered them at in pre-pub. has now increased! I ordered them back in December for a certain price (and have an email to that effect) but the site now tells me I ordered them at a price which is reflective of the new way dynamic pricing is calculated.
I can accept perhaps that Faithlife does not make a practice of advertising price increase policies. But where an order has been placed and the terms of that order have now been changed I think we should be getting an email to alert us of the change in price and the reason for it. Is that too much to ask?
I didn't notice that. Yeah, my price on the Master Journal upgrade went up $10. Not a huge deal, but unexpected. With other purchases (such as the Encyclopedia Britannica or the Great Books of the Western World), there can be an introductory pre-order price that does not go up once the order is placed, even though the price of the product increases. I had assumed that was always the case.
EDIT: Sorry, I missed pages 2 and 3 of the thread before I posted. It looks like it's all worked out now.
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Bruce Dunning said:
It certainly is not technically accurate. I didn't pre-order it for that price. My price went up by $10. I wonder if there are any examples of someone's price going down?
I pre-ordered it for
Currently it went up to:
I hope and believe they'll fix this and my other Pre-pubs.
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“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Hello All,
If you had a pre-pub order that was Dynamically Priced and impacted by last week's Dynamic Pricing changes, you will notice that the price on that order has changed again. The Dynamic Price you see now will be lower than the price you were originally shown.
Please note that while the price has been adjusted, it's still a Dynamic Price and subject to change. If you purchase any of the resources in a collection, or return any of the resources in a collection that you happen to own before the collection ships, your Dynamic Price for that collection will change.
Everyone will still receive the standard e-mail confirmation prior to any pre-pub shipping.
A big thanks to everyone for their patience and support as we worked to resolve this.
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