Leading when Hebrew text is embedded in other text
Hi all,
I'm trying to read a book that makes references to Hebrew words.
For some reason, Logos (in both the Mac desktop app and the iOS app) sets the space between lines differently for english text and Hebrew text.
The effect of this is that some lines have lots of space, others have very little. It makes it difficult to see paragraph breaks and is all-round hard to read.
Is there anything I can do to even this out?
See attached example.
Thanks!
Comments
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Andrew Hayes said:
For some reason, Logos (in both the Mac desktop app and the iOS app) sets the space between lines differently for english text and Hebrew text.
I'm not sure that is really true. I think when Hebrew is entered in an English paragraph the line spacing remains the same. The problem is the Hebrew niqqudim (vowel points) which are below the consonantal characters. The spacing seems the same but related to the niqqudim.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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That might be the better way to describe it, thanks!
But the effect is the same, isn't it?
(This book in print edition has every line equally spaced)
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Andrew Hayes said:
(This book in print edition has every line equally spaced)
Yes, but that's a typeset presentation, not an electronically generated text.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Ah, I see. So it's challenging to do it automatically?
Surely there is a way to do it... Microsoft Word handles it fine - see below, where I have pasted the exact same text from my original post into Word.
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Andrew Hayes said:
Ah, I see. So it's challenging to do it automatically?
Surely there is a way to do it..
I'm sure there is, but would you want to pay extra for human intervention?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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On the desktop, you can go to Program Settings and change the Line Spacing option to "Loose". This will make the spacing more even between lines. I believe the mobile options have an equivalent Line Spacing setting in the View Settings.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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Thanks Andrew. I have played around with that a fair bit, it doesn't really help. The gap under hebrew words is still 2 - 3 x what is under English words and between paragraphs. It's that aspect which bothers me most - it is hard to get a sense of the author's flow when the paragraphs aren't clear on the page.
George - my illustration from Microsoft Word shows it doesn't take human intervention. That was a simple copy + paste, and Word was able to automatically generate an evenly spaced layout.
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Andrew Hayes said:
George - my illustration from Microsoft Word shows it doesn't take human intervention. That was a simple copy + paste, and Word was able to automatically generate an evenly spaced layout.
That's interesting. Of course, I was simply speculating since, although I notice the line spacing, it doesn't bother me.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Thanks Andrew, I share your frustration (and I'm the one responsible for the code in this case [:$]).
Rest assured, we have a case in our bug-tracking system to improve the leading in resources. Your particular issue of mixed Hebrew/English is a prime example of the larger problem we'd like to fix. I'm sorry that I can't make any promises or give any estimates on this improvement. We have done several things to try and mitigate the issue such as allowing user preferences to impact the line spacing calculations; but as you've pointed out, it doesn't always help enough.
One other suggestion I can offer which may or may not help (depending on the particular resource among other things) is to change your default resource display font and/or default Hebrew font.
You can actually demonstrate these same problems in Word by putting your English and Hebrew text in different fonts and/or sizes. This is much closer to what is going on in your example in Logos.
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Oops, sorry, I posted from my personal account. The above is from me.
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Thanks for the reply Alan!
Yes - if only we could change the fonts on iOS!
And yes, to your comment about different fonts and sizes. As I have played around with them, even when I have put both in Ezra (for example), the Hebrew text seems larger than the English text. That makes me think it must be connected with the default type size of Hebrew characters?
When I put both into Ezra SIL in Microsoft word, the Hebrew ayin and the English 'A' are almost the same height vertically. But in Logos, when both are in Ezra SIL, the ayin is much taller. To get the same effect as what I am seeing in Logos, I need to set the English text at 12 point and the Hebrew text at 16 point. In fact, when I copy and paste from Logos into Word, if I don't strip the formatting then I have the exact same leading issues as in Logos, and the Hebrew text is set at 16 compared with the English's 12. But when I strip the formatting as I paste it in, the leading issues are completely resolved (for both are now at 12 point).
Is there a chance that Logos is automatically setting the Hebrew text at a larger type size for legibility? If so, while appreciated at one level, it could well be the cause of the leading problems?
I can't see a way to change the size of the Hebrew font independently of the English in the same resource.
Based on this... my suggested fix could be either:
a) default the text to show at the same font size
or b) give users the option to turn this on
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Andrew Hayes said:
Yes - if only we could change the fonts on iOS!
Ah, sorry, I guess I didn't realize you were primarily concerned with mobile since you mentioned Mac as well. [:$]
Andrew Hayes said:Is there a chance that Logos is automatically setting the Hebrew text at a larger type size for legibility? If so, while appreciated at one level, it could well be the cause of the leading problems?
You nailed it. [Y] I was going to mention this in my previous response but I felt like the post was already getting too long and my intention wasn't to overwhelm people with the specifics of the problem. [8-|]
I have added a link to this forum thread to our case so that when any progress is made, we can update you here.
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Thanks Alan!
Yeah mobile and mac.
Well if it is a font size difference, that shouldn't be too hard to fix, right?
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Andrew Hayes said:
And yes, to your comment about different fonts and sizes. As I have played around with them, even when I have put both in Ezra (for example), the Hebrew text seems larger than the English text.
Ezra SIL always seems to be somewhat larger compared to SBL Hebrew.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Andrew Hayes said:
Thanks Alan!
Yeah mobile and mac.
Well if it is a font size difference, that shouldn't be too hard to fix, right?
Don't oversimplify it, differing font sizes and font faces are fundamental to the problem but that doesn't imply a simple fix. Changes like these need to be accompanied with a good deal of care, testing, etc.
Issues are typically evaluated based on cost/value/impact/risk and are compared with the rest of the priorities that exist. These variables change often and issue priorities shift all the time thus my reservation to make any promises about a timeline for fixing this. However, you can find some comfort in knowing that this particular issue is a pet peeve of mine as well and I have no intention to let it remain in its current state forever.
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Doh! I keep using the wrong account. [:$]
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Great thanks Alan! Really appreciate you taking the time to talk me through it
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Alan Palmer (Faithlife) said:Andrew Hayes said:
Yes - if only we could change the fonts on iOS!
Ah, sorry, I guess I didn't realize you were primarily concerned with mobile since you mentioned Mac as well.
Andrew Hayes said:Is there a chance that Logos is automatically setting the Hebrew text at a larger type size for legibility? If so, while appreciated at one level, it could well be the cause of the leading problems?
You nailed it.
I was going to mention this in my previous response but I felt like the post was already getting too long and my intention wasn't to overwhelm people with the specifics of the problem. 
I have added a link to this forum thread to our case so that when any progress is made, we can update you here.
Andrew and Alan, this has been one of my biggest frustrations with Logos for quite some time. I've noticed the same thing you describe in this thread. With respect to Hebrew font sizes, I recently provided the following critique in the Logos Web App forum (cf. this post):
Adam Olean said:Also, another thing that has been frustrating with Logos applications on every platform (including the Web App) is the intervals between font-size gradients. The jump between the smaller and larger font sizes can be quite [dramatic], which sometimes prevents me from finding a more preferable font size. Hebrew fonts, in particular, set to the smallest setting in the BHS are HUGE (bold, italics, underscore! [:P]). This has been reported before, but it seems that nothing has ever been done about it. For all I know there could be limitations that I'm not aware of, although it seems odd that this design choice (a poor one, in my opinion) would be repeated—and suffer the same limitation(s)—on so many different platforms. An excellent Bible application like Logos should display Hebrew well!
This problem becomes even worse if you activate a visual filter such as "Propositional Outlines." I often abandon Logos for the "Tanach" at the J. Alan Groves Center for Advanced Biblical Research (here). At least with that text, I can decrease the font size to a more preferable setting and toggle on and off the vowels and accenting.
If you ever solve this one, Alan, I would be very grateful! [Y]
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Alan Palmer (Faithlife) said:
Doh! I keep using the wrong account.
The Double Life of "Alan Palmer"—or "Alan Palmer (Faithlife)"??? [^o)] [:D]
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Alan Palmer said:
Well, Alan, I could have said The Strange Case of Alan Palmer and Alan Palmer (Faithlife), but that probably wouldn't have fair! [;)]
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This has bothered me as well, and would love to see it addressed.
A similar issue is when the Hebrew is far too small to be useful, like in the Table of Contents of NIDOTTE, on the left side of the panel.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Ben said:
A similar issue is when the Hebrew is far too small to be useful, like in the Table of Contents of NIDOTTE, on the left side of the panel.
You can kick the font size up a notch or two.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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You can't control the Hebrew font size in the ToC independently as far as I'm aware, and the Hebrew font in my regular text is already plenty large.
Edit: you can't even control Hebrew font size independently in *regular* text, let alone TOC text in the sidebar. Moreover, the normal text increase size shortcut doesn't appear to affect the TOC, only the main text.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Ben said:
You can't control the Hebrew font size in the ToC independently as far as I'm aware, and the Hebrew font in my regular text is already plenty large.
Edit: you can't even control Hebrew font size independently in *regular* text, let alone TOC text in the sidebar.
You can temporarily increase the size when you need to then set it back to your previous setting.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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It's terrible to come across this inconsistency of spacing between Hebrew texts/words and texts from other languages. It really bothers me that the use of "display multiple books" is inconsistent when I use the Hebrew text side by side with the Greek LXX and an English version. The Greek text conforms perfectly to the font size I select, but only the Hebrew is larger than the other languages. I don't know, but I think the solution would be to choose another Hebrew font that is more compact and follows the size of the other fonts.
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"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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