End of Community Pricing?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/829910#Comment_829910

Good question. I am going to sleep on it and get back to you tomorrow

Lee

Ted

It may be that with so many bundles of resources making the price higher many users don't want to bid.

I would rather be able to get a few resources that really want, than for example 10 that i want and 90 I care for in a bundle.. Even if the handful I want cost just a little bit more.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/829944#Comment_829944

Have all the useful public domain books already been produced? Or, is there another reason why community pricing is a fizzling out format?

I too have pondered about this as it has been some time since any new Community Pricing resources were added. I could be wrong, but I think the last public domain resource added was on March 27th.

JT (alabama24)

I too have pondered about this as it has been some time since any new Community Pricing resources were added.

Don't you remember that they culled the list? It isn't strange that they haven't added any (or many) until others go through.

Yasmin Stephen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/829945#Comment_829945

I too have pondered about this as it has been some time since any new Community Pricing resources were added.

Don't you remember that they culled the list? It isn't strange that they haven't added any (or many) until others go through.

I thought it was pre-pubs they culled.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/829944#Comment_829944

I too have pondered about this as it has been some time since any new Community Pricing resources were added. I could be wrong, but I think the last public domain resource added was on March 27th.

I don't remember the exact date, but it's certainly been a while.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/829946#Comment_829946

Uhh... You're right. [:$]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/829945#Comment_829945

I too have pondered about this as it has been some time since any new Community Pricing resources were added.

Don't you remember that they culled the list? It isn't strange that they haven't added any (or many) until others go through.

I didn't think that was the case.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/829952#Comment_829952

Uhh... You're right.

Oops. I see that you acknowledged that.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830017#Comment_830017

Old time users, can you recall those posts about "get your bid in quickly before these public domain books close and go into production"?

It used to be that this was the case about several books on a weekly basis. Now, it seems like hardly any books are working their way through community pricing.

Have all the useful public domain books already been produced? Or, is there another reason why community pricing is a fizzling out format?

I've been around since 2008 so maybe I am an old time user.....Regardless, I do remember weekly releases of CP titles. I think we all have noticed the decline of output from Community Pricing. This could be related to the cuts in staff or maybe not. I like to think there has been a refocusing on tagging efforts. It is also possible the cause is external. Maybe there is a lack of interest or financial support to push the CP titles into production. All we can do is bid and hope.

Dan Francis

I've been around since 2008 so maybe I am an old time user....

Now you make me feel ancient since i have been a user since 2005 and active in the Logos news before they had an internet forum.

-Dan

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830020#Comment_830020

I've been around since 2008 so maybe I am an old time user....

Now you make me feel ancient since i have been a user since 2005 and active in the Logos news before they had an internet forum.

-Dan

Cheer up Dan, I am one year older than you. User since 2004.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830021#Comment_830021

Newbies ... I go back to the prior century ... with admittedly a bit of a break ...[;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830023#Comment_830023

I go back to the prior century

Yikes...I'm in the same boat as you.

Mikko Paavola

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830097#Comment_830097

There's currently 444 open community pricing items. That's much more than some years ago.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830160#Comment_830160

There's currently 444 open community pricing items. That's much more than some years ago.

Community Pricing has become the dinosaur tar pits of Faithlife; titles go in but rarely come out.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830164#Comment_830164

Community Pricing has become the dinosaur tar pits of Faithlife; titles go in but rarely come out.

[:D] That made me laugh out loud.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830164#Comment_830164

Community Pricing has become the dinosaur tar pits of Faithlife; titles go in but rarely come out.

Let's just hope it doesn't turn into the Black Flag Roach Motel of Faithlife: "titles check in, but they don't check out."

[:P]

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830164#Comment_830164

There's currently 444 open community pricing items. That's much more than some years ago.

Community Pricing has become the dinosaur tar pits of Faithlife; titles go in but rarely come out.

Thankfully the faithlife crane occasionally drags one out... like the The Sacred Books of the East (50 vols.) that was just released. it had never got close to the required amounts... but I am guessing it was seen as too key a work for the NOET crowd not to be done. Although that is just speculation on my part.

-Dan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830169#Comment_830169

it had never got close to the required amounts... but I am guessing it was seen as too key a work for the NOET crowd not to be done.

I have had suspicions on several titles that suddenly go 100%. I'm guessing they, too, are key works that Faithlife wants to see released.

Ted Weis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830160#Comment_830160

There's currently 444 open community pricing items. That's much more than some years ago.

Wow! That's a huge amount. I wonder how long some of these titles have lingered in the "tar pits" and "roach motel." Does the fact these are still lingering show that the better public domain titles are already produced?

On another thought, it sure would be fun if Logos would have an "original community pricing sale" on some of these titles that have long been in the store, so newbies could reap the original benefits.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830170#Comment_830170

I have had suspicions on several titles that suddenly go 100%. I'm guessing they, too, are key works that Faithlife wants to see released.

I think you may be right.

Travis Walter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830184#Comment_830184

It looks like only approx 100 of the 444 CP titles have reached 50%. So only roughly 25% of them seem to maybe have a chance.

Of the 100 or so, 55-60 are at 75% or greater.

Its a very slow process..

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830177#Comment_830177

First Catholic titles stopped being added to Community Pricing. Now everybody suffers.

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830259#Comment_830259

For example the catholic encyclopedia https://www.logos.com/product/8511/the-catholic-encyclopedia is near 40%, and and the bar grows very slowly. They should promote at least some important CP resources on the Logos main pace to get wider attention

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830190#Comment_830190

It looks like only approx 100 of the 444 CP titles have reached 50%. So only roughly 25% of them seem to maybe have a chance.

Of the 100 or so, 55-60 are at 75% or greater.

Its a very slow process..

Do you get the feeling not many people know about Community Pricing? Or, worse yet, maybe Faithlife doesn't have all that many customers.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830834#Comment_830834

Do you get the feeling not many people know about Community Pricing?

There have been a number of efforts over the years to educate and encourage Logos users such as bidding on a resource through CP and later get it free. It would be interesting to know how many new CP bidders were created from those efforts.

Oldnewbie

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830838#Comment_830838

I have thoroughly enjoyed CP over the years. The Loeb edition resources have been great for me as well as the apologetics, church history, systematic theology, church fathers and philosophy offerings have all been welcome additions and I hope to add more still (especially the Loeb editions that still haven't come out yet). As someone with limited financial resources I am extremely thankful to FL for all the help their research has provided me in expanding my horizons intellectually and spiritually through CP. Don't stop promoting, guys and gals at FL!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830914#Comment_830914

I agree with the initial observation. But I posit three major reasons.

1. The Logosian population is evangelical. So 400+ CPs is irrelevant ... it's a narrow interest world. That's why a group of older 'Bible' translations sits and sits ... they're not the ESV (NIV, HBC, etc) and logically so.

2. It's a mishmash. I find out about CPs and pre-pubs from the forum, and 'about to ship'. I don't sit day after day checking CPs or PPs.

3. The classic commentaries set the bar pretty high. I didn't get any, but I was impressed they did so well.

A 4th applies to me. Dinking around with putting CPs and PPs back in play if the cost or bid equation came unglued was a turn off. If they want exactness, fine ... but don't waste my time. Then the PP cleanup sort of finished it off.

I wonder if too, if people are calming down on purchasing in general. Here in Sedona with visits up a lot, purchasing is down significantly. My guess is Amazon. Their guess, the cosmos (politics, terrorism, fires, and so on). People are nervous.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830265#Comment_830265

For example the catholic encyclopedia https://www.logos.com/product/8511/the-catholic-encyclopedia is near 40%, and and the bar grows very slowly. They should promote at least some important CP resources on the Logos main pace to get wider attention

The fact that both Verbum.com and Noet.com lack CP is really hurting titles like this one.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830922#Comment_830922

I agree with the initial observation. But I posit three major reasons.

1. The Logosian population is evangelical. So 400+ CPs is irrelevant ... it's a narrow interest world. That's why a group of older 'Bible' translations sits and sits ... they're not the ESV (NIV, HBC, etc) and logically so.

2. It's a mishmash. I find out about CPs and pre-pubs from the forum, and 'about to ship'. I don't sit day after day checking CPs or PPs.

3. The classic commentaries set the bar pretty high. I didn't get any, but I was impressed they did so well.

A 4th applies to me. Dinking around with putting CPs and PPs back in play if the cost or bid equation came unglued was a turn off. If they want exactness, fine ... but don't waste my time. Then the PP cleanup sort of finished it off.

I wonder if too, if people are calming down on purchasing in general. Here in Sedona with visits up a lot, purchasing is down significantly. My guess is Amazon. Their guess, the cosmos (politics, terrorism, fires, and so on). People are nervous.

I think the Logos/Verbum world has been the cash cow funding a ton of other ventures, and it has started to show - despite some of the new features that have come out from Logos Now, a look at UserVoice and the features people complain about most here are not addressed. It's simple things really that show some true attention to the user base - usability features, basic improvement features for things people use every day. Logos has gotten stale for real work in some important ways. How long have we waited for Personal books to get some reasonable library management features, and support for mobile? But that is not sexy and won't sell new users. There are many examples like this - search has not improved in fundamental ways beyond specialized tagging that is only in select resources. More and more Google searches accomplish what Logos does not. It's not that there isn't work being done on Logos, but when funds have been siphoned off of Logos to do other ventures, the improvements have been slow.

Greg

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831000#Comment_831000

Personally I've cut back on bidding on CP titles just to save money. That, and I've noticed many end up as filler material in new sets with every number release.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831002#Comment_831002

Filler material in numbered releases ....excellent point. I forgot about that.

Logos the Cow (hmmm ... Verbum maybe his brother). Most companies can't survive without milking their cows. And I'm not one to be pontificating ... I think they've got Logos in serious over-kill, to the extent customers can't value improvements ... too many too small.

I still say, to survive, web sophistication, and subscription. They're just pounding sand on the desktop. Of course they'd loose me as a customer, but I'm old.

Mr Bob hasn't touched the hem of the garment until he uses his servers to deliver unbelievable sophistication.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831004#Comment_831004

Logos the Cow (hmmm ... Verbum maybe his brother)

Logos the Cow (hmmm ... Verbum maybe his her brother)

Knowing that D. is always precise ...[;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831024#Comment_831024

Touche!

Although I think Logos the Bull is a bit much. But cash cows are the ladies. Never heard of cash bulls.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831026#Comment_831026

Touche!

Although I think Logos the Bull is a bit much. But cash cows are the ladies. Never heard of cash bulls.

Top quality bull seamen can be exceptionally pricey. And rodeo bulls can earn a lot too.

-Dan

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831027#Comment_831027

Might I add, (only because of completing my daily activity of deleting spam that came across in email subscriptions from the forums), the thirst for new customers is so intense there are absolutely no barriers to gaining a user account that I can see. Of all the ideas suggested on the forums over the years, nothing will stand in the way of possibly getting one new customer on the forums, even if it means fighting a losing battle against robots and spam to the forums - a level of spam that, despite best efforts to stop it once posted, is well beyond any other forum I spend time on.

Who cares if existing users have to suffer a little, if we can get another user in the forums - they might buy something. Users complain too much. Its like Fathlife is totally content with building their defenses to entry behind the unlocked door. With all the wickedness and sophistication going on in the world today, one day Faithlife is going to find they have been wiped out by some hacker just because it's easily possible - all for the quest of one more user, and despite the fact that this is easily correctable and intensely annoying to current users.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831105#Comment_831105

I continue to enjoy not having email subscriptions totthese or other forums. I rarely see any spam on the Logos forums because of this.

Randy Lane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831243#Comment_831243

My take (i.e., hunch) on the dearth of new Community Pricing listings is that public domain resources, and similar items that were historically offered through CP, do not, in reality, add many new customers. And Faith Life wants a steady stream of new customers for obvious reasons - its good business. My company uses the phrase "win lives".

CP listings did not just appear; a lot of effort is required before posting a CP listing. Obtaining the material in good enough condition to be profitably converted to digital, estimating the effort required to produce it, designing the listing. And a whole whole lot more I am sure. So it is pretty clear to me that when Faith Life had the reorganization with a significant RIF (reduction in force, layoffs), those who were mostly tasked with that pre-posting work associated with CP listings were among those either laid off or assigned to different jobs.

I too miss the constant flow of new CP listings. But like one or more others have chimed in, I cut back for financial reasons. There's still probably 10-20 items in the pile that I would pony up for, but on 2 or 3 are even over the 30% mark.

Kevin Clarke, Ph.D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/830944#Comment_830944

Agreed. This one too: https://www.logos.com/product/28903/patrologiae-cursus-completus-series-graeca

Sometimes Evangelicals get a bad rap as not being interested in the Church Fathers, but I know that's not true. Logos users need to place their bids on the Migne texts, for the good of all Christian scholarship.

This project is going to reap big rewards for Logos once it's done, but the lack of bids seems to be stalling it. Such a pity.

Hapax Legomena

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831380#Comment_831380

This has been a very interesting discussion. In the active forum community, I'm probably a fairly "light" user: not many posts and only 4,006 non-Perseus resources. But I do have a M.A. in Theology from a Catholic seminary. I use the Verbum daily for my own study. It seems that Faithlife/Logos/Verbum has lost its focus. Verbum is the ignored step child. I just want the best books and a high quality program to utilize these books (excuse me, "resources.")

The whole concept of Logos/Verbum "Now" kinda irks me: so after I spend $20,000 on "resources" I still need to spend another $9 a month to get a program to get the best features to utilize these "resources." No thank you, Bob.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831412#Comment_831412

... I just want the best books and a high quality program to utilize these books (excuse me, "resources.")

Amen to that.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831380#Comment_831380

Agreed. This one too: https://www.logos.com/product/28903/patrologiae-cursus-completus-series-graeca

Sometimes Evangelicals get a bad rap as not being interested in the Church Fathers, but I know that's not true. Logos users need to place their bids on the Migne texts, for the good of all Christian scholarship.

This project is going to reap big rewards for Logos once it's done, but the lack of bids seems to be stalling it. Such a pity.

I suspect there are at least two reasons that this one is languishing:

The price is substantial;
The potential audience is limited to those with the language skills to make full use of it.

This isn't something that your typical layperson - even a layperson who had a year or so of Greek at some point, or perhaps some high-school Latin - is likely to buy. (I suspect there are also many full-time ministers who wouldn't be able to get their money's worth out of it.)

Kevin Clarke, Ph.D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831424#Comment_831424

Of course laypersons are not going to bid on that. That is a given. However, the price is not really substantial. $250 for hundreds of volumes. Also, $250 for more than 200 Latin volumes (and with so much text to digitize, there's no way Logos will be collecting that money from you in the next three or four years). Those are steals for academics interested in Christian antiquity. Imagine how much your Greek can improve over a few years.

The idea that there are not enough academics on Logos to get these volumes up and running makes me wonder if they really are doing well with this target audience.

Perhaps they can apply for some grant monies to help make these volumes available.

In the meanwhile, trust me, it's worth it. Place your bids!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831435#Comment_831435

Kevin, if you wish to push that resource, you need a separate thread with a clear title. Then you have to sell it over a 2-3 year period, popping your thread to catch newer Logosians and remind oldies.

But that said, Logos is basically 3rd-4th year Bible college or seminary. The market doesn't extend much further than that. They graduate, do churchy stuff and do a library. Few academics. Quite a few 'laypersons'.

Surprisingly, Bob supports a fairly sophisticated academic staff ... but their theology rattles the evangelical cage. Logos has its margins.

Proven loosers in Logos: anything latin that cost money, any translations by Logos, anything not compatable with Moody (eg Ehrrman), and any Christianity outside of the Catholic/Protestant axis. Africa, Asia, and South America are 'mission fields'. They're not going to happen.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831435#Comment_831435

The idea that there are not enough academics on Logos to get these volumes up and running makes me wonder if they really are doing well with this target audience.

There are features and resources that make me think this is an important market for Faithlife, but at the same time the solution is not complete - holes exist in tools and resources for this market. Faithlife's strategies are more opportunistic than refining and completing the offering (look at the stops and starts on Logos being a regular source of periodicals, a critical part of academic research, and an approach that is far from timely; academic types will need other sources for periodicals and then they won't purchase them twice - leaving Faithlife out in the cold).

Beyond some of the evangelical markets, for other markets the list of required resources is far from complete. It's a chicken and egg issue, the resources and tools won't come if the market doesn't buy, but the market won't buy because the commitment does not seem to be there. An example is the Catholic world with the direction they were going with Fr. Roza under the Verbum label - it was an exciting approach with unified training, resources and focused tools for the Catholic-oriented ecclesiastic and research world. Then in the layoffs came - and most of it appears to be gone, and many of the resources pulled, probably for good. This was probably necessary as penetration into that market wasn't going to come through prepub and community pricing approaches - something different was needed.

Your suggestion on grant monies is an interesting one - if Faithlife truly wants to be a major player in universities, seminaries, and among authors, theologians, professors - and to see their platform as the go to standard for students and researchers, something more than opportunistic prepub and community pricing is needed. Investment is needed, but Faithlife investment is not so evident in the Logos/Verbum market as it is in the many other things Faithlife does. (Look at Bob's posts - the last time he posted in Logos 6 or the Logos 6 beta forum was February - yet frequent posts in other areas. I would be very worried if the boss showed great interest in areas other than mine [:D]).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831440#Comment_831440

But that said, Logos is basically 3rd-4th year Bible college or seminary. The market doesn't extend much further than that. They graduate, do churchy stuff and do a library. Few academics. Quite a few 'laypersons'.

And that's not a bad place for them to be, as a business. There are a lot more students, working ministers, and average Christians with a desire to learn more about the Word, than there are professional academics.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/831450#Comment_831450

There are a lot more students, working ministers, and average Christians with a desire to learn more about the Word, than there are professional academics.

However, their "average Christian" tools are lacking as well as the high end academic tools - at least if you consider a broad swath of denominations. And few of the common/popular methods of Bible study are explicitly supported although most of the pieces to support them are in Logos.