Over $300 for L7 Features? Really?

Andrew Zoll said:

💻2.6 GHz i7 MacBook Pro 15" Retina | 16GB RAM | 1TB SSD💻
🎁Logos 6 Diamond🎁
🌐Logos Now🌐

Andrew, how did you do this? Thanks.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:

i upgraded- think i got 2 whole features for 200.00- niether of which will i ever use.

good grief!!

I think that was your mistake, you should have done a bit more research and you would have found out what you were getting for $200.

Do I have a purchase or two that I regret buying from Logo? Yup,  but I blame no one but my self. 

Batman,

   I have my gripes with Logos/Faithlife as well. As I think anybody who is human might, as no company is perfect and will always have what some consider faults. One person thinks "A" is a fault while one person thinks "B" is a fault. But the person who thinks "A" is a fault doesn't think "B" is a fault and vice-versa. All that said, I understand your heartburn about constant upgrades (I like it, actually, but I understand why some wouldn't) and pricing (a major gripe for me) but, what I don't get is your complaints about the software itself.

   You say that searches are slow and that it is better, for you, to Google a passage. I completely, totally, and utterly flat-out wholly disagree with you. If you know how to use the simple search functions (which aren't hard) and the simple guides (which aren't hard) it doesn't take but about half a second for Logos to bring up anything and everything you could ever want to know. ORRRR, it could just open up your bible to where you want to go in less than a blink of an eye.

   Conclusion: pricing-bad product-GREAT! 

I am using two laptops and my kindle I understand no longer "officially" works with the Logos software (a rather complicated workaround has been offered). My older laptop, about 5 years old now, is actually faster than my new one. But, for whatever reason, searching for a specific location (easier) or a partial verse (harder--sometimes no results) takes a while to get my computer to respond or as I pointed out, just doesn't find what I'm looking for. Sometimes it's just a matter of Logos loading. Because I am no longer in the cutting edge of technology, ie, more ram than 95% of users, slower 5400rpm HD, and having an Intel 3 or 5, it takes several minutes just to load. By the time it loads, I've found it on google and away I go. Sometimes it's just because I havent even opened Logos for several days and it wants to update and index (aware of the settings to manually do so, which I do) it's just tiring. I do wish it were more like a "Patch Tuesday" for updates (just not tuesday. lol). So for all these reasons, it has become a hassle just to find a simple verse. 
I have NEVER had an issue finding verses in any bible software, until Logos. 
So, no it is very rarely that it ever finds anything in a blink of an eye. Once it's open, and everything is done downloading, yeah, then I can open a book almost instantly, and find a verse almost instantly. But, before you (or more likely anyone else) says "that's your computer, not Logos", it has always been slow to move along. Even when my computer was cutting edge. 

Dwayne Justice said:

Batman,

   I have my gripes with Logos/Faithlife as well. As I think anybody who is human might, as no company is perfect and will always have what some consider faults. One person thinks "A" is a fault while one person thinks "B" is a fault. But the person who thinks "A" is a fault doesn't think "B" is a fault and vice-versa. All that said, I understand your heartburn about constant upgrades (I like it, actually, but I understand why some wouldn't) and pricing (a major gripe for me) but, what I don't get is your complaints about the software itself.

   You say that searches are slow and that it is better, for you, to Google a passage. I completely, totally, and utterly flat-out wholly disagree with you. If you know how to use the simple search functions (which aren't hard) and the simple guides (which aren't hard) it doesn't take but about half a second for Logos to bring up anything and everything you could ever want to know. ORRRR, it could just open up your bible to where you want to go in less than a blink of an eye.

   Conclusion: pricing-bad product-GREAT! 

(In response to every post Batman has made in here....)

At last someone who says what I could not....you rock.  God bless this mess...and you too.

Tony Thomas said:

Some suggestions to Faithlife/Logos:

1. Offer a monthly subscription option for everything at a slightly higher price.  That way, a user doesn't have to fork over a large amount of money up front and has a chance to opt out if they can no longer afford the price or they are not using the features.  It will also allow them to "test drive" the features for a month or two and gauge the value.

2. Create lower-priced subscription options.  For example, I am more interested in the web version than the new feature sets as I use the mobile and web versions more than the desktop version.   Price it at $3.99 a month and step up development and I'm in!

3. Allow people to buy the features they want a la carte as well as in bundles.  

4. Rethink your packages.  I looked at the latest Starter and Starter Features packages and see little additional value.  Certainly not worth the price you are charging.

5. Create less expensive onramps to the Logos platform for new users.  Loss leaders work.  I started with a $25 MacArthur Libronix package and have spent 2-3 grand with Logos.  And I am willing to spend more!

6. Perhaps it is time to end the free engine upgrades.  Development costs money.  I think if you charged a reasonable amount $50-60 for a new engine with some valuable added features, most users would pay up.  Of course, they could choose to continue to use an older, unsupported version. 

I want to add a number 7 (and yes, it is the same record being played but no one has answered me yet): allow subscribers to keep features after a certain period of subscription. This would solve a lot of problems. I would continue subscribing because of the newer tools that keep on being released, but if I must stop my subscription for whatever reason I will not lose all functionality but only the newest

I don't really want to join this conversation, as I'm finding it rather tiresome, but there are a couple of points worth making:

• One thing nobody ever seems to mention is that there have been at least three occasions, and I think more, in the past year, when LN subscribers have also been given a $10 voucher, which actually significantly reduces the overall cost. That doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but it indicates that Faithlife is very aware of the amount of value members are getting out of the subscription. 
• The term "beta testing" is one that non-LN subscribers like to use as a way of insulting the product: it is a slanderous term that really should not be bandied about here. The quality of the software that has come out over the past year has, in general, significantly improved with the six-week development cycle. LN users are certainly not beta-testers, and I am increasingly finding it galling to hear people who know little about LN referring to it as such. Most of the new features that have come out have been more robust, better-documented, and better explained than we saw in the past. Granted, there are some issues, but far fewer than there ever used to be. 
• When I moved from L3 to L4 I was concerned about the Logos business model: I could not see how the syncing, mobile app upgrades, and storage of all my notes could be funded from one-off purchases. That's before considering the cost of constant development to keep up to date with Apple, Microsoft and Android software updates, server OS and security upgrades, etc. I think Logos/Faithlife is acting wisely and responsibly in seeking to protect its future by finding ways of generating recurring revenues from its users. The world is changing, and I have 3-4 disks in the back of my cupboard from previous Bible software packages that went out of business or ceased to be supported. I see the annual LN fee as a protection of my investment, but I get full value out of it on top of that as well. Yes, I'll lose some features if I cease to subscribe. I am happy to take that risk. There's more to life than fretting about my Logos features. 

GregW said:

I don't really want to join this conversation, as I'm finding it rather tiresome, but there are a couple of points worth making:

• One thing nobody ever seems to mention is that there have been at least three occasions, and I think more, in the past year, when LN subscribers have also been given a $10 voucher, which actually significantly reduces the overall cost. That doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but it indicates that Faithlife is very aware of the amount of value members are getting out of the subscription. 
• The term "beta testing" is one that non-LN subscribers like to use as a way of insulting the product: it is a slanderous term that really should not be bandied about here. The quality of the software that has come out over the past year has, in general, significantly improved with the six-week development cycle. LN users are certainly not beta-testers, and I am increasingly finding it galling to hear people who know little about LN referring to it as such. Most of the new features that have come out have been more robust, better-documented, and better explained than we saw in the past. Granted, there are some issues, but far fewer than there ever used to be. 
• When I moved from L3 to L4 I was concerned about the Logos business model: I could not see how the syncing, mobile app upgrades, and storage of all my notes could be funded from one-off purchases. That's before considering the cost of constant development to keep up to date with Apple, Microsoft and Android software updates, server OS and security upgrades, etc. I think Logos/Faithlife is acting wisely and responsibly in seeking to protect its future by finding ways of generating recurring revenues from its users. The world is changing, and I have 3-4 disks in the back of my cupboard from previous Bible software packages that went out of business or ceased to be supported. I see the annual LN fee as a protection of my investment, but I get full value out of it on top of that as well. Yes, I'll lose some features if I cease to subscribe. I am happy to take that risk. There's more to life than fretting about my Logos features. 

Hear! Hear! 

Bob Pritchett said:

Batman said:

As I quoted in a previous response, 90% of Logos users utilize 10% of what Logos has to offer. That's about as poor a grade a company can get. And, that comes from Morris Proctor, "official Logos trainer". Or, maybe it came from Logos itself. Either way, it's not good

I use less than 10% of what Microsoft Outlook does, and I use it all day every day.

...

I hear a lot of users say they use less than 10% of Logos. Some say it almost apologetically, like they've let themselves, or their church, or even me(!) down. Some say it resentfully, like they were somehow cheated of 90% of their investment.

But it's not unusual or anything to feel bad about: Logos is a big, toolbox full of things you use every day (hammers and screwdrivers) as well as some exotic tools you use rarely but which are the perfect thing when you need them (glass cutter, reciprocating saw, shingle froe, etc.).

A big toolbox isn't a waste if you don't use every tool in it. What's a waste (of time or energy) is trying to use a hammer and screwdriver for every job, even if they're a lot cheaper than the big toolbox.

Bob, here's how I look at it:

Let's say I use 10% of what Verbum 7 can do. There are a few more things that I intend to start using or that I would like to explore. Let's say that's another 5%. Now, let's suppose that, since there are some non-complex features in Verbum that I don't use that lots of other people do, that those account for another 5% of what Verbum can do. Now, let's suppose that Verbum could only do that 20% of what it actually can do. I would then be using or interested in fully 75% of what Verbum can do, the product would be distinctly inferior to what it is now, and I'd probably be about as happy paying for it as I am now... because I buy based on what I will/intend to use, not based on what something can do that I won't use it to do. Do I feel bad about this? Is this a complaint that Verbum can do tonnes of stuff I don't need or want to do? Of course not! Why would I ever complain about a product I get for a subjectively good price that can do more than what I need it to do? That would be outrageously silly. (Alas, my waffle-maker can also do grilled cheese sandwiches! My laptop could dual boot to Linux! My bookmark doubles as a ruler! My DVD player can also play VHS! My watch has a built-in alarm clock! Horror of horrors! [:P])

At the end of the day, I'm happy buying and using what I'm using, and you're happy selling me what I'm buying; all's well.

Andrew Zoll said:

2. Type whatever you want to be in your signature:

Thanks, Andrew. Where did you get the laptop, package, and world logos from? I looked in the smiley face options and none of those were in there. Thanks.

Tony Thomas said:

As I am not planning to buy any large sets in the near future, this is not of interest to me.  I would rather see lower-cost subscription options than discounts.

That's quite fair. [:)]

Keeping it open may be a viable option. I'll try that. But, i do find it annoying I just had Logos opened last night--rather late, I might add, and had an update and that's after an update earlier yesterday, and a bigger one the day before. (Again, I know i can direct the software to update manually. But, again, I think it would be beneficial to do the "Patch Tuesday" thing. And then, if people would rather update sooner, they can. Like how security software works. 
But, put it together like this:
Antivirus/security updates.
Windows updates.
Printer updates.
Logos updates. 
When do these updates take place? With exception of Logos (because I don't need Logos for my job) these all take place when I am in a hurry to print something out for work! So, then going to Logos, and dealing with MORE "important" updates, just makes me want to go and live with the Quakers or Amish or something. 
No, I'm not technologically illiterate, a technophobe. I'm just getting irritated by the "bigger, better, faster" computers taking longer and longer. And yes, I see Logos as part of the problem, not really a solution. 

Dwayne Justice said:

Batman,

     I don't know what to tell you, man. First of all, Logos is always open on my computer (maybe you could consider that?) so I wouldn't have that issue, even if it was an issue. Second, when I do close it, or perform my weekly restart of my computer, when I open it back up it only takes about 5 seconds. If that is too long for you to wait, then I got nothing...If I do find that Logos is indexing at the time I am trying to accomplish a search, I simply click the pause button. I honestly do not know why yours is so slow if you maintain that it is not your computer. Maybe you should contact your computer and/or OS software manufacturers to see if it has something to do with your hardware or software not working right with Logos. All I know is that I have zero speed or functionality (searching capability) problems with my Logos on any of my devices (Macbook Pro, iMac, iPad, iPhone). It works great no matter which device I am trying to use Logos on.

Andrew Zoll said:

Dwayne Justice said:

Andrew Zoll said:

2. Type whatever you want to be in your signature:

Thanks, Andrew. Where did you get the laptop, package, and world logos from? I looked in the smiley face options and none of those were in there. Thanks.

No problem. It's going to depend what kind of computer you have. Since I have a Mac, they're build in emoji, and can generally be accessed by pressing ⌘+⌃+Space (Command, Control, and the Space Bar).

Let's see if I did this right. Testing 1, 2. Testing. Testing, 1,2,3.

Dwayne Justice said:

Let's see if I did this right. Testing 1, 2. Testing. Testing, 1,2,3.

Did you remember to click save? Also, I think the first time I did it, it took like 5 minutes to show up.

Thank you Andrew, but, yes, as stated, I am aware of that. But, others who do find it annoying may not. 

And, yes, I have nocturnal habits. But, working three jobs, and making nothing, those habits have shrunk. Even Batman needs time to recover. 

Dwayne Justice said:

You beat me to it, Andrew. I was going to suggest the same thing.

I try to be pretty quick- I don't want my energy annotating screenshots to go to waste! [:P]

Dwayne Justice said:

🖥 21.5" iMac; 2.7GHZ; 1TB HD🖥

💻 15" Macbook Pro Retina; 2.5GHZ i7; 16 GB; 500GB FSD💻

🎁Logos 6 Diamond; Logos 6 Anglican Diamond; Logos 6 Pentecostal & Charismatic Gold🎁

🌐Logos Now🌐

Nice! Looks good!

Batman said:

And what would be great is if Logos allowed those who couldn't fork out $100 at once to pay monthly. $7-10 a month does not sound horrible. Or as bad. 

That would be a good option for some, Batman. I would have two caveats to that, though. 1st: if Logos (or any company) set it up the way any smart business would, the month-by-monthers would end up paying more than the yearly subscribers. Let's say Logos buys your idea and splits it down the middle and charges $8.50/mo. That would end up being $102/yr. Not a drastic amount more, but still more. 2nd: it would be a better use of your money to simply budget aside $8.50/mo and not touch it until the yearly bill came due. If you put it somewhere that earns even the tiniest bit of interest like a .01% savings account or something, you even come out on top a little. Pay your $99.99 from the money you have been saving for a year and then go buy yourself a batburger with the $2 difference from the monthly vs yearly fees and your .01% interest you earned over the year. Heck! you might be able to get two batburgers. I don't know how much batburgers run these days. Or perhaps a batburger with a side of robinfries?

Andrew Zoll said:

Andrew,

          Hey, man, I got two questions for you. 1) what are your first three Logos shortcuts? I've never seen those before. I only have the update now, close all, and then my "use every day" books as shortcuts. 2) for those red arrows and circles: did you have to put the screenshot into PP first and use the insert command, or is there an easier, quicker way? Thanks!

Dear Graham: Because I couldn't figure out the upgrade - it seems most cannot.
I called sales to get them to help me as I don't have time to spend hours trying to figure out a map through this mess- again.
When 6 came out, I finally had to do the same thing- if you will remember ( if not, go look) the upgrade calculators were coming up with very inconsistent results, just wasn't a good path other than calling sakes.

Did similar this time and, sales manager agreed its a confusing issue.
So, I did as recommended and, don't doubt the sound man was doing his best- basically I got the engine and 2 tools- thats it.

Its NEVER the customers fault when the company isn't clear, concise and attuned to customer needs.
However, in todays world, due to us being a purely consumer society- we have a new business attitude at play, its normalized pretty well ( I deal with it in business daily ), The general attitude is this: We only care about the customer to the point its convenient to us, if the customer is inconvenient, if the customer isn't happy- get rid of them, there are more right down the street.
For every customer lost, there are 20 more to be had.
I do have to admit- it works, in general, it works- until it doesn't .

Circuit City was that way and would openly tell you that was policy- didn't hurt them until it did, then there was no recovery, there are many examples.

Logos is going to do what Logos is going to do- I know that, it matters not if I like it, you like it, anyone likes it- Logos does not need to concern itself with what we like, want, feel, desire etc, it just doesn't .
Logos is at that sweet spot where they can lose customers and it just doesn't matter, 20 will replace them, most who will buy software they use a bit then becomes a forgotten program for the most part.

So, understanding these things, I just called sales and got what they recommended.
Yes, I was hoping for a pleasant surprise, hoping to be excited- didn't happen.

In the long view, its just 200.00 bucks I will eventually make up/forget I spent .

Grin- Logos is just being logos, Tiger cant change its stripes.

Canibalism? LOL. that's funny. 

Yes, monthly subscribers generally would pay an extra buck or so a month (or, whatever). I myself would do an annual subscription, just because it's done and over. And, yes, sometimes there's a savings. Personally, I'm not opposed to that. It allows those who can pay annually to do so, but, it doesn't prevent those who have to pinch pennies to be able to subscribe too. A "best of all worlds for all people". 
What it won't do, however, is prevent those who think it should be cheaper. Cheaper meaning free. That will never go away. But, as I point out, this seems to be a much better option, that in my "who gives a rat's behind" opinion of what looks like a golden goose and Logos milking people with an every other upgrade for $300-400 minimum fee. As one points out, a much lower investment. I have paid $2000-3000 to Logos since L-3. Much of that was Community Pricing (scary thought in and of itself, acknowledging that is 60-90% off the Pre-pub and after pub pricing). Now had the subscription idea been available, I would have paid under $800 plus what I have done with CP and other sale items. 
And the biggest plus is, that if it was not working for me, I could more easily walk away from a $100 investment (but, actually a $10 investment, because I would never have invested annually without going the monthly route for the test drive). 

Dwayne Justice said:

Batman said:

And what would be great is if Logos allowed those who couldn't fork out $100 at once to pay monthly. $7-10 a month does not sound horrible. Or as bad. 

That would be a good option for some, Batman. I would have two caveats to that, though. 1st: if Logos (or any company) set it up the way any smart business would, the month-by-monthers would end up paying more than the yearly subscribers. Let's say Logos buys your idea and splits it down the middle and charges $8.50/mo. That would end up being $102/yr. Not a drastic amount more, but still more. 2nd: it would be a better use of your money to simply budget aside $8.50/mo and not touch it until the yearly bill came due. If you put it somewhere that earns even the tiniest bit of interest like a .01% savings account or something, you even come out on top a little. Pay your $99.99 from the money you have been saving for a year and then go buy yourself a batburger with the $2 difference from the monthly vs yearly fees and your .01% interest you earned over the year. Heck! you might be able to get two batburgers. I don't know how much batburgers run these days. Or perhaps a batburger with a side of robinfries?

I totally hear you, and I do not disagree with any of the points you make. 

I do, however, have to admit, I am liking the subscription idea. Your points are 100% valid, and while I don't agree totally, I definitely dont disagree. Like I said, its very valid. I think that's why I like the dual option idea. I know it sounds like I am a Logos hater. I'm really not. I do hate the constant barrage of advertising and the semingly never ending upgrades. (Even if I choose not to upgrade, it's still a bad taste in my mouth, knowing they just released an upgrade and here comes another and another. It gives the impression they are greedy. Even if it's necessary to survive). 
One person says they like the "rent to own option". I'm ok with that; I'm ok with the subscription. I agree, if we end up not subscribing, it's lost and lost money. But for me, I'm ok with that, because I no longer feel like I'm behind or being "forced" (I know, we aren't forced to upgrade, but it feels that way) to keep current. To me it's a matter of I can try it for several months at about $10 a month, and if I am finding it valuable, I can access it annually for about $100 a year. That works out much better to me than putting up $400+ then finding out several months later, Oh! I dont feel like Ive been taken at $10 as opposed to a constant barrage of $400+ every 2-3 years. But, then if I want to "buy", I can. So, to me its a best of all worlds, and it makes Logos look less greedy.
Until they are forced to have to raise the monthly fees to $15 and the annual fee. 

Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:

Dear Graham: Because I couldn't figure out the upgrade - it seems most cannot.
I called sales to get them to help me as I don't have time to spend hours trying to figure out a map through this mess- again.
When 6 came out, I finally had to do the same thing- if you will remember ( if not, go look) the upgrade calculators were coming up with very inconsistent results, just wasn't a good path other than calling sakes.

Did similar this time and, sales manager agreed its a confusing issue.
So, I did as recommended and, don't doubt the sound man was doing his best- basically I got the engine and 2 tools- thats it.

Its NEVER the customers fault when the company isn't clear, concise and attuned to customer needs.
However, in todays world, due to us being a purely consumer society- we have a new business attitude at play, its normalized pretty well ( I deal with it in business daily ), The general attitude is this: We only care about the customer to the point its convenient to us, if the customer is inconvenient, if the customer isn't happy- get rid of them, there are more right down the street.
For every customer lost, there are 20 more to be had.
I do have to admit- it works, in general, it works- until it doesn't .

Circuit City was that way and would openly tell you that was policy- didn't hurt them until it did, then there was no recovery, there are many examples.

Logos is going to do what Logos is going to do- I know that, it matters not if I like it, you like it, anyone likes it- Logos does not need to concern itself with what we like, want, feel, desire etc, it just doesn't .
Logos is at that sweet spot where they can lose customers and it just doesn't matter, 20 will replace them, most who will buy software they use a bit then becomes a forgotten program for the most part.

So, understanding these things, I just called sales and got what they recommended.
Yes, I was hoping for a pleasant surprise, hoping to be excited- didn't happen.

In the long view, its just 200.00 bucks I will eventually make up/forget I spent .

Grin- Logos is just being logos, Tiger cant change its stripes.

Batman said:

I can try it for several months at about $10 a month

Dear Batman:

It was recently [this month]announced that Monthly Subscriptions will all terminate  in December.

By 2017 ALL people in Logos Now are now to be Annual .

Sorry

"Robin" ?

You are right. I have just paid off Logos 6. I am still trying to get some of the new features implemented in my daily use. I am glad Logos keeps updating.

I do not have to upgrade my phone every time there is a new model; when I am ready I will upgrade to Logos 7. With my luck it will be right before Logos 8