Because the engine is always free

I've been using this since 1995. I can't possibly count how many times I've read and heard the saying "The engine is always free, you pay for the books." I've paid for almost 7,000 books.

It just isn't true anymore, IMHO. The Engine is $134 for me.

I know, I know, I'm being negative and that's not Christian-like and the expectation isn't practical.

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Dr. Keith Pang Ph.D.

The engine is free, but not until Feb 2017

Wilson Hines

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/843527#Comment_843527

Then....the engine is not free.

Fred Chapman

This has been addressed a number of times this week. The free L7 engine will be available in February. That kind of delay has been standard practice for L4, L5, L6, and now L7.

Also keep in mind that the 6.14 engine is almost identical to the L7 engine. For the most part you are running exactly the same engine those who purchased an L7 base package or feature set are running.

Dr. Keith Pang Ph.D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/843528#Comment_843528

As of right now it is not, but it will be. So it is free lol

Mark Barnes

It just isn't true anymore, IMHO. The Engine is $134 for me.

The core engine — updated just days ago — is still free, as you know: https://www.logos.com/support/install_logos_6. In that regard, nothing has changed since last week, or last year, or last decade for that matter.

TCBlack

It works like this....

Engine (Free) +books (not free)* + certain tools (not free)

Right now you can buy a Logos package (books/not free) that also comes with the engine (free)

You can also purchase the feature sets (certain tools, not free) and access the engine (free) but not get any books (not free).

In February you'll be able to download the engine for free. You still will own the books you own, and you won't have the feature set of certain tools.

*Logos regularly has free books, so not free isn't entirely the case.

Bootjack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/843560#Comment_843560

I just talked with Sales and I was informed that for me to move to Logos 7 & the least expensive way for me to move to Logos 7 will be 276.00.

For me to buy Silver again (with added material) would be a mere 671.00 and that would be tonight's price. If the Canadian dollar slides even further, then that price will rise.

I don't need anymore than what I have as of right now. So just a mere 276.00 to move from Logos 6 to Logos 7. The core engine will be free next year but will not include some of the up to date tools.

So I'm presently sitting here wondering why I'm really not going to do this but I'm not. Those prices for me are too bizarre.

Simon’s Brother

As others have stated, the offical core engine will be available for free in February (unspecified date) however in another thread an Logos employee has made the statement if you have the free 6.14 core engine you effectively have the 7.0 core engine for free now:

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/129519/841625.aspx#841625

I'm not sure I understand why current users not ready to purchase a new upgrade package have to wait.

Consider Apple's model: When new iPhone models are released, the new operating system is simultaneously made available as a free upgrade to those with older phones. What's the harm in letting past loyal logos customers merely upgrade their core engines at the same time of a new roll out? If they want the latest greatest features they can buy the data sets in upgrade packages.

For someone that's spent over $1000 in resources with a company, the current model feels less like a culture that wants provide the best platform for resources for their user base and more like a corporation that is simply focused on maximizing profits each quarter.

You are in luck! You don't need to wait. If you are running 6.14, then you are getting the exact same experience you would get if you were running 7.0 today without making any purchase. The only difference would be the version number that gets displayed in the application.

And a little bit further down in same thread from another Logos Employee:

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/129519/841680.aspx#841680

Jason, the free Logos 7 engine will be available in February. We're asking customers who get access to it through a Logos 7 purchase not to share that link with others.

We do this for a few reasons:

6.14, which is available to everyone as of Monday, and 7.0 are essentially the same app, with just a different version name and splash screen. The code is otherwise virtually identical. So downloading 7.0 wouldn't change anything meaningful for you.

The Logos 7 features that will eventually be free are restricted temporarily by licenses. Once we make the 7 engine available to everyone, we'll remove those license restrictions. Until then we don't want people to get confused by thinking they have 7.0 (and getting disappointed that it's virtually identical to 6.14). It's common for people not to understand the differences between the free software update, the feature set upgrade, and the library upgrade. By deferring the free software update by a few months, it allows us to make sure more people understand these important differences.

The release of a new version creates a lot of demand on our teams, and limiting access to the new version of the app to those who purchase it allows us to reduce the demand on our customer service and technical support teams and provide better service.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/843563#Comment_843563

For me to buy Silver again (with added material) would be a mere 671.00 and that would be tonight's price. If the Canadian dollar slides even further, then that price will rise.

Being a Canadian myself I feel for you Bootjack. Any cross-border shopping is more expensive than it used to be. I understand that it is not inexpensive to upgrade to L7 silver for you but I'm not sure I understand why you think that is "too bizarre". Could you help me understand what you mean by this?

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/843563#Comment_843563

So I'm presently sitting here wondering why I'm really not going to do this but I'm not. Those prices for me are too bizarre.

$276 is not pocket change. Unfortunately when Faithlife started to create features and datasets that required significant investment on their part, the price of keeping up to date escalated significantly.

I don't know what a Logos Now annual subscription will cost you in Canada, but that is most likely the least expensive option to get everything right now. Of course, you'll need to spend that again in another year to keep the tools, but it could be both years are less for you than $276. Perhaps Logos Now doesn't appeal to you. You certainly won't go backwards by staying where you are.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/843528#Comment_843528

Then....the engine is not free.

Yes, yes it is. The free version of the engine right now is Logos 6.14. The free version of the engine in February will be Logos 7.x.

By your logic, the Logos 6 engine stopped being free when Logos Now came out and started offering features that will be in the free version of Logos 7.x but were not in the free version of Logos 6.x.

Furthermore, by your logic, if Faithlife was not allowing anybody to buy a product that included access to the Logos 7 engine--because Faithlife had it developed and simply didn't release it--then the engine would be free. It does not follow from the fact that you can pay money for something that includes a better version of the engine than you can get for free [even though, for the moment, the engine is no better than 6.14], that the engine has suddenly stopped being free. The Logos engine was free on August 16th; it's free on August 26th.

If Faithlife required people to pay money in order to have access to the beta version of the Logos engine, would you consider the Logos engine no longer free?

I would also like to point out that the delay before the free version is offered is not new to the release of Logos 7; it's Faithlife's standard practise.

Tony Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/843588#Comment_843588

I would rather pay $50 or $60 every few years for an engine that includes new features. Oh, wait! I already do that with another major Bible software platform!

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/843590#Comment_843590

I would rather pay $50 or $60 every few years for an engine that includes new features.

It would cost me less than that to buy the Starter Feature Set.

I already do that with another major Bible software platform!

It's not whether there are new features, but what the features are that really matters. And the (delayed) free engine upgrades always manage to include new features from the free version of the L# engine.

Tony Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/843608#Comment_843608

I would rather pay $50 or $60 every few years for an engine that includes new features.

It would cost me less than that to buy the Starter Feature Set.

I already do that with another major Bible software platform!

It's not whether there are new features, but what the features are that really matters. And the (delayed) free engine upgrades always manage to include new features from the free version of the L# engine.

Interesting that the Starter Feature set does not show up on the four ways to upgrade to Logos 7:

https://www.logos.com/ways-to-get-logos

Only $45 to buy, but I don't see any compelling reason to buy:

https://www.logos.com/product/121388/logos-7-starter-feature-set

As the new engine is the same as the one I already have, my money will stay in my pocket this year.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/843590#Comment_843590

I would rather pay $50 or $60 every few years for an engine that includes new features. Oh, wait! I already do that with another major Bible software platform!

Then, I gather your presence on this forum is simply to create turmoil. Do you have a genuine Logos question?

Tony Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844058#Comment_844058

I would rather pay $50 or $60 every few years for an engine that includes new features. Oh, wait! I already do that with another major Bible software platform!

Then, I gather your presence on this forum is simply to create turmoil. Do you have a genuine Logos question?

No, I am not here to create turmoil. I am a long time Logos user that isn't too pleased with the current direction of Logos.

I have also posted a list of recommendations for Logos management:

See: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/129552.aspx?PageIndex=6

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844130#Comment_844130

I have also posted a list of recommendations for Logos management:

See: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/129552.aspx?PageIndex=6

I abandoned that thread long ago—Sorry that I have not seen your recommendations, but I will not return to that thread.

Tony Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844200#Comment_844200

I have also posted a list of recommendations for Logos management:

See: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/129552.aspx?PageIndex=6

I abandoned that thread long ago—Sorry that I have not seen your recommendations, but I will not return to that thread.

I'll repost the suggestions here, then:

1. Offer a monthly subscription option for everything at a slightly higher price. That way, a user doesn't have to fork over a large amount of money up front and has a chance to opt out if they can no longer afford the price or they are not using the features. It will also allow them to "test drive" the features for a month or two and gauge the value.

2. Create lower-priced subscription options. For example, I am more interested in the web version than the new feature sets as I use the mobile and web versions more than the desktop version. Price it at $3.99 a month and step up development and I'm in!

3. Allow people to buy the features they want a la carte as well as in bundles.

4. Rethink your packages. I looked at the latest Starter and Starter Features packages and see little additional value. Certainly not worth the price you are charging.

5. Create less expensive onramps to the Logos platform for new users. Loss leaders work. I started with a $25 MacArthur Libronix package and have spent 2-3 grand with Logos. And I am willing to spend more!

6. Perhaps it is time to end the free engine upgrades. Development costs money. I think if you charged a reasonable amount $50-60 for a new engine with some valuable added features, most users would pay up. Of course, they could choose to continue to use an older, unsupported version

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844058#Comment_844058

Jack this is a totally inappropriate response. Tony is expressing his reasons why he is disengaged with what Faithlife is offering to him as a customer. A customer focused company is actually interested in this sort of feedback. MVP's should nit be speaking to Faithlife customers in this manner. It is not the call of an MVP as to whether or not Fairhlife is interested finding out why their customers are becoming disengaged. If you do not agree with a fellow customer and can not offer anything of value to the conversation then move onto the next thread and do niot return to the thread.

I would rather pay $50 or $60 every few years for an engine that includes new features. Oh, wait! I already do that with another major Bible software platform!

Then, I gather your presence on this forum is simply to create turmoil. Do you have a genuine Logos question?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844275#Comment_844275

Jack this is a totally inappropriate response. Tony is expressing his reasons why he is disengaged with what Faithlife is offering to him as a customer.

I doubt very much that Jack quit reading because of Tony's comments ... at least that is not why I switched to a scan quickly for serious question mode ... It reflects exactly what you request:

If you do not agree with a fellow customer and can not offer anything of value to the conversation then move onto the next thread and do niot return to the thread.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844275#Comment_844275

Jack this is a totally inappropriate response.

Since I have no desire to become engaged in a debate/argument with you, I will refrain from response to your criticism.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844296#Comment_844296

I doubt very much that Jack quit reading because of Tony's comments

You are correct, Tony was not the one who caused me to abandon that other thread. Enough said about that.

Tony Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844420#Comment_844420

I doubt very much that Jack quit reading because of Tony's comments

You are correct, Tony was not the one who caused me to abandon that other thread. Enough said about that.

Well, that's good news! [:)]

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844458#Comment_844458

I doubt very much that Jack quit reading because of Tony's comments

You are correct, Tony was not the one who caused me to abandon that other thread. Enough said about that.

Well, that's good news!

I realize that what I said could lead someone to believe that I cited you as the reason for abandoning that thread, and I apologize that I was not clear. Unless you are AKA a cartoon character, you have not irritated me that much.

Disclaimer—Sometimes the old sailor still pushes himself to the front. [:P]

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844532#Comment_844532

Jack I never thought you left the other thread because of Tony - MJ somehow brought that into the conversation.

I doubt very much that Jack quit reading because of Tony's comments

You are correct, Tony was not the one who caused me to abandon that other thread. Enough said about that.

Well, that's good news!
I realize that what I said could lead someone to believe that I cited you as the reason for abandoning that thread, and I apologize that I was not clear. Unless you are AKA a cartoon character, you have not irritated me that much.
Disclaimer—Sometimes the old sailor still pushes himself to the front.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844418#Comment_844418

I am not intereste in a debate or argument either I just want an end to MVP's showing a complete lack of respect to customers who raise things that are an issue to them. Calling people's issues 'drivel' as you have in another thread is just wrong and it's the sort of response that is baiting those customers to start an argument. If a given customers concern is not an issue to the MVP and they can't say anything nice then they should say nothing and move on, it's pretty simple. After all MVP's are volunteers who excel at helping out other customers, they are not paid to be FL's to make decisions about what customer complaints are ones that will be followed up, but some of you speak to customers like you are paid to do this very thing.

Jack this is a totally inappropriate response.

Since I have no desire to become engaged in a debate/argument with you, I will refrain from response to your criticism.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844251#Comment_844251

l repost the suggestions here, then

Thanks for your thoughts. I am sure someone from Faithlife has seen them but will not likely comment on them.

I am encouraged by the team Bob Pritchett has assembled at Faithlife. I like the direction they are leading and I would not change a thing.

Tony Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844532#Comment_844532

I realize that what I said could lead someone to believe that I cited you as the reason for abandoning that thread, and I apologize that I was not clear. Unless you are AKA a cartoon character, you have not irritated me that much.

The cartoon character turned over a new leaf and finally bought Bronze and Logos Now...

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844595#Comment_844595

Well, Tony ... you're off the hook (but avoid cartoon characters).

Unfortunately, now any one of us could be drivel-ee's. It's worrysome, since once you've been drivel'd by the MVPs, then they pile on. It's ghastly.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844601#Comment_844601

MVP team photo ... never before revealed

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844595#Comment_844595

The cartoon character turned over a new leaf and finally bought Bronze and Logos Now...

Interesting. Thank you for that bit of news.

MVP team photo ... never before revealed

Wow! I didn't know anyone had a camera at that event [:D]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844614#Comment_844614

Smiling!

Bootjack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/843569#Comment_843569

For me to buy Silver again (with added material) would be a mere 671.00 and that would be tonight's price. If the Canadian dollar slides even further, then that price will rise.

Being a Canadian myself I feel for you Bootjack. Any cross-border shopping is more expensive than it used to be. I understand that it is not inexpensive to upgrade to L7 silver for you but I'm not sure I understand why you think that is "too bizarre". Could you help me understand what you mean by this?

Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. For some reason, I'm not getting notices in my Emailer when someone responds to a posting I've made. More than likely because I forgot to click the "Email me replies to this post."

As to your question what I mean by being too bizarre. Here comes the answer with feeling. I presently own Logos 6 Silver with more than what I presently need. Does it make much sense for me to fork out another near 700.00 to buy Silver again with an extra few books? The simple & easy reply would be an all out no. For me to do that would be bizarre. Hope this make it a lot more clearer for you. ;-)

Just an added note ... for me to buy LN would be 115.80 and that's because it's presently going at 89.00 US. That will jump to 99.00 next time around which means for me it will cost 128.81 where the dollar sits tonight. Now I think we all know where this is going. Next year after that, there will be another reason why the price has to go up again, so it becomes just a tad bit too much. One wonders where this LN cost will be in 3-4 years from now??? I could buy the FFS for roughly 270.00 Canadian or at least close to that figure and the stuff is mine. Right now, I have no interest in LN, the main reason being, I have more on my Plate or is that more properly called Drive than what I'll ever use in the time I have left on this planet. If I were to spend more dollars, it would be for the FFS. :-)

Bill Moore

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844695#Comment_844695

For me to buy Silver again (with added material) would be a mere 671.00 and that would be tonight's price. If the Canadian dollar slides even further, then that price will rise.

Being a Canadian myself I feel for you Bootjack. Any cross-border shopping is more expensive than it used to be. I understand that it is not inexpensive to upgrade to L7 silver for you but I'm not sure I understand why you think that is "too bizarre". Could you help me understand what you mean by this?

Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. For some reason, I'm not getting notices in my Emailer when someone responds to a posting I've made. More than likely because I forgot to click the "Email me replies to this post."

As to your question what I mean by being too bizarre. Here comes the answer with feeling. I presently own Logos 6 Silver with more than what I presently need. Does it make much sense for me to fork out another near 700.00 to buy Silver again with an extra few books? The simple & easy reply would be an all out no. For me to do that would be bizarre. Hope this make it a lot more clearer for you. ;-)

Just an added note ... for me to buy LN would be 115.80 and that's because it's presently going at 89.00 US. That will jump to 99.00 next time around which means for me it will cost 128.81 where the dollar sits tonight. Now I think we all know where this is going. Next year after that, there will be another reason why the price has to go up again, so it becomes just a tad bit too much. One wonders where this LN cost will be in 3-4 years from now??? I could buy the FFS for roughly 270.00 Canadian or at least close to that figure and the stuff is mine. Right now, I have no interest in LN, the main reason being, I have more on my Plate or is that more properly called Drive than what I'll ever use in the time I have left on this planet. If I were to spend more dollars, it would be for the FFS. :-)

I made a similar point to Phil Gons on another thread, saying it would be helpful to know if Now would remain at $100 annually for a few years. Phil indicated that Faithlife could not increase it every year, that it would probably remain at $100 for a few years.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844058#Comment_844058

Then, I gather your presence on this forum is simply to create turmoil. Do you have a genuine Logos question?

Well, just a few days ago I posted a defense of the MVPs, stating how I'd never seen one be nasty to a forum user.

Jack broke the streak. Now I have.

(FL employees...my sig line no longer applies to Jack.)

Bootjack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844733#Comment_844733

Thank you for the interesting comment Bill. Even if that were to hold true, the way the Canadian dollar stands up or falls against the US dollar, my payment next year could be 150 plus! :-)

I should never say never to LN or a bigger package, because I might wind up eating a delicious lunch of Crow with a follow up of a rather large slunk of Humble Pie.

The Lord bless ya sir.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844617#Comment_844617

The cartoon character turned over a new leaf and finally bought Bronze and Logos Now...

Interesting. Thank you for that bit of news.

MVP team photo ... never before revealed

Wow! I didn't know anyone had a camera at that event

I remember that party. Threw out my back trying to dive on the pile.[H]

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844058#Comment_844058

I would rather pay $50 or $60 every few years for an engine that includes new features. Oh, wait! I already do that with another major Bible software platform!

Then, I gather your presence on this forum is simply to create turmoil. Do you have a genuine Logos question?

Having read many of your subsequent posts, it appears that I misunderstood the reason for your—repeated—comment about another Bible software. For this, I apologize. In any case my comment was overly harsh.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844614#Comment_844614

MVP team photo ... never before revealed

[:)]

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844750#Comment_844750

As to your question what I mean by being too bizarre. Here comes the answer with feeling. I presently own Logos 6 Silver with more than what I presently need. Does it make much sense for me to fork out another near 700.00 to buy Silver again with an extra few books? The simple & easy reply would be an all out no. For me to do that would be bizarre. Hope this make it a lot more clearer for you. ;-)

Thanks for clarifying. For sure it doesn't make sense for you to purchase more books if you don't need them. But you may not realize their value until after you have them and various searches refer to them.

I should never say never to LN or a bigger package, because I might wind up eating a delicious lunch of Crow with a follow up of a rather large slunk of Humble Pie.

I don't want to be the cause of you making a purchase you didn't want to make but I do think you would find LN very valuable. So "never saying never" is a good strategy to employ.

Bootjack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844779#Comment_844779

Yes Tony, those comments you made were really harsh!!!?????? :-) Seriously Jack, you have to grab yourself one of those Snickers bars. They sometimes will do wonders!!! :-D

Bootjack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844789#Comment_844789

Thanks for clarifying. For sure it doesn't make sense for you to purchase more books if you don't need them. But you may not realize their value until after you have them and various searches refer to them.

You make a good point Bruce. Thank you for the reply.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844797#Comment_844797

Yes Tony, those comments you made were really harsh!!!??????

Thank you for catching my typo. I have now corrected it from y to my

Bootjack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844802#Comment_844802

No problem Jack. The "y" to "my" changes the whole scenario. Have a super week! :-)

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844806#Comment_844806

My confusion these days with the Free Engine is not the issue of whether or not it is really free but it is what would I actually get (or should I say keep).

The only experience that I have of the "Free Engine" is on a copy of Logos that my wife uses with a small resource set. This allows her to do everything that she wants to do with the Bible and a handful of Dictionaries and One Volume Commentaries. We only keep the software up to date and do not add resources or buy package upgrades.

An interesting experiment, though not one I have time to complete, would be to use a typical large library on the "Free Engine" and see how well the resources can be studied. My suspicion is that the core features would not be a disappointment.

Another reality is that there is not a single "Free Engine" because if I choose to take the free option free for me would be the core engine plus the features for which I have a permanent license. In my case free would be a lot more powerful than free for some other users.

I don't anticipate Logos dropping the free engine any time soon as the business case for them will be more about the cost of supporting multiple versions than the benefit to the customer. That may seem like a cynical statement but it is really a business reality and the truth is that giving a free upgrade to the customers who will not pay for an upgrade is more cost effective than leaving them on the old version. Don't forget these are the users who don't want the new features anyway because they are happy with what they have got.

From a business perspective making the free engine available at first launch would of course make no sense because Faithlife probably get a good percentage of the upgrade revenue from the customer who does not need the new features but wants to have the latest.

Bill Moore

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844750#Comment_844750

Thank you for the interesting comment Bill. Even if that were to hold true, the way the Canadian dollar stands up or falls against the US dollar, my payment next year could be 150 plus! :-)

I should never say never to LN or a bigger package, because I might wind up eating a delicious lunch of Crow with a follow up of a rather large slunk of Humble Pie.

The Lord bless ya sir.

I understand the issue with currencies. That's got to be a source of much irritation.

I thought "never" to Logos Now, but after researching subscription software and perusing so many threads that I think I've almost become one, I've come to appreciate what is going on with LN. I think I'm getting used to the taste of "crow" and "humble pie." [;)]

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/844867#Comment_844867

I thought "never" to Logos Now, but after researching subscription software and perusing so many threads that I think I've almost become one, I've come to appreciate what is going on with LN. I think I'm getting used to the taste of "crow" and "humble pie."

Thanks for your vulnerability to share this. I think when we more fully understand things we can apprediate them.