BUG: Power Lookup renders Logos 4 unusable

Matt,

I tried to do what you were doing as best I could understand having only a single monitor (the one on my laptop). I have BDAG open to the place you mentioned, and have Power Lookup open in Follow mode. After right clicking on Diadochi it took 7 seconds to open the menu up fully. Choosing a second word, the menu opened more quickly, about 4 seconds.

Closing Power Look-up cut about a second off the latter time. (The first instance of the right click menu in a resource always has some 'overhead' that later instances don't have. Diadochi opened in 3 seconds the second time due to this and the closing of Power Lookup.)

So, I get a slight improvement with Power Lookup closed in this instance (not much was in that window, BTW), but nothing near the drag you are seeing.

Your computer is certainly more robust than mine, too.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85271#Comment_85271

Hi Mark, thanks for your confirmation.

After right clicking on Diadochi it took 7 seconds to open the menu up fully. Choosing a second word, the menu opened more quickly, about 4 seconds.

Although not as bad as my performance, that's still unacceptably slow!

not much was in that window, BTW

Interesting, thanks for including that tidbit of information. On my machine, the 2nd monitor is running @ 1600x1200, the Power Lookup window is maximized , and the font slider is set to the 5th tick from the left. The Power Lookup window is filled with information from top to bottom, and the scroll bar allows me to scroll through ~2.5 full screens of information (i.e. in my Power Lookup window, there's a lot of information). I just checked, and this would be equivalent to 7 full pages of printed material @ an 11 point font.

I wonder if it has something to do with how much text is displayed in the BDAG? Yep, it appears that is so. I just rearranged the BDAG so it was only using 1/2 the screen real-estate on monitor 1 (which runs natively @ 1920x1200), and the amount of information displayed in the Power Lookup dropped down to just 1/5 of 1 screen (or about 1/4 of a page of printed material). Right-clicking on words in the BDAG, now take 1 second, or about the same amount of time as it would if Power Lookup were closed. If I then utilize all of my screen real-estate, right-click times then increase back up into the 20 second range. This is definitely a bug.

Matt

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85301#Comment_85301

I tried your scenario on my work computer as it's close to your config, and the menu is competely up in about 3 seconds, and (the image is pasted below) the menu pops up almost instantly.

My config: (dual 1920 x 1200 monitors)

Intel Quad Core x2 3.2 GHz

32GB memory

NVIDIA Quadro FX 5800 4GB memory

I am running Windows Server 2008 R2 which is the server version of Windows 7. but I added back in most of the "eye candy"

This is Logos 4.0b Beta 6

People have said the betas of 4.0b have been getting faster, or it could be the video card difference. I doubt it's memory, right now it's only using 3.6GB so your 16GB of memory is ample. When I right clicked on "Koine" just above Diadochi overall CPU spiked to 26% - 29% then immediately back to 10% so I doubt it's CPU either.

If it's not Logos, or the video card memory differences, it could be some sort of Windows tuning. YOu may want to try turning off all the video eye candy for a test (Control Panel/Performance Information and Tools/click Adjust visual effects on left margin, click on Custom and turn everything OFF for a test), and see how that works - if it's a ton better than you are video card constrained (or the video driver is the issue).

Hope this helps!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85301#Comment_85301

that's still unacceptably slow!

Yes, but that was the first time I right clicked on that resource. The first is always slow, but the subsequent ones are faster - 3 seconds or so. That speed is OK with me.

I wonder if it has something to do with how much text is displayed in the BDAG?

Well my BDAG was showing 1/8 of a screen on a 1920x1200 monitor, so that would be some difference.

7 full pages of printed material @ an 11 point font.

That is a lot of information that is set to change with any small change of location in your linked resource.

On another track, have you opened up Window Task manager to the Performance tab and watched your CPU usage and memory usage during the slow operation? It might be nice to know which of these is being taxed so heavily. I realize this doesn't address the performance of your video card, but it might give some additional insight.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85400#Comment_85400

Hi Dominick, thanks for your feedback and effort!

and the menu is competely up in about 3 seconds

Even on that system, 3 seconds? That's *incredibly* slow for such a system. If you notice in my follow up to Mark's post, I stated that my Power Lookup window has about 7.5 pages of printable text on it. As the amount of text displayed in Power Lookup goes down, so does the right-click time. Here's a screen shot of how my setup looks when I get the 18-20 second right-click times:

As you can see, I have more information in both the BDAG pane, and a lot more displayed in the Power Lookup pane. I should also note that even with just this one resource open, scrolling through the text is essentially impossible as I don't receive any visual feedback from Logos (other than that the UI freezes and sometimes displays 'Not Responding) until it updates 5-18 seconds later.

When I configure BDAG to display much less text such as this:

then my right-click times in BDAG drop to 1 second or less. If I then scroll down a bit, so that my screen looks like this:

then my right-click times are back up in the 10-20 second range.

If I take the ridiculous step of setting up my BDAG like this:

then Logos 4 is a responsive computer program! I can guarantee you that this is not a Windows problem, it's a data retrieval problem. There's some sort of resource lock issue going on with Logos which renders its UI unable to update when the Power Lookup window is populated with more than a few characters of text, which essentially renders Power Lookup useless. As I said previously, I've noticed these sort of resource contention issues all over the program, but it's certainly high-time Logos began addressing them.

Matt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85497#Comment_85497

Hi Mark, thanks again for your confirmation and help on this.

3 seconds or so. That speed is OK with me.

You have much more tolerance for defective software than I do. I've never owned a piece of software that on one hand, offers so many wonderful resources, but on the other hand, was released with so many bugs. If this software had been free, well, of course, I'd have nothing to say but "Thanks for all the hard work you put into it."

That is a lot of information that is set to change with any small change of location in your linked resource.

In actuality, on a modern computer, that's very little information! If indexes and resources are properly accessed, that should be a blink of the eye operation. I've worked on enterprise level software (and continue to do so) that deals with much more information than that on less robust machines and if the proper threading and I/O architecture is utilized, there's no problem whatsoever. Also, the architecture needs to take into account the amount of RAM and CPUs on the machine and then scale what it does and allocate those resources accordingly. By the looks of things, Logos is using a one-size-fits-all paradigm which was deprecated in at least the early 90's.

On another track, have you opened up Window Task manager to the Performance tab and watched your CPU usage and memory usage during the slow operation?

Yes I have. During the right-click operation, my CPU is idle except for Logos 4 using 12-13% CPU (i.e. one core of the eight is pegged) which clearly demonstrates the single-threaded nature of the operation.

Matt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85526#Comment_85526

If this software had been free, well, of course, I'd have nothing to say but "Thanks for all the hard work you put into it."

OK were are waiting for you to say this. The program is free. Your resources are not, some of the tools are not, but the Logos 4 engine is free. So feel free to thank the team for their hard work.

Now, that doesn't invalidate your concern. But we've heard a lot of folks slamming the programming and that is doing no one any good. Your idea of what is acceptable programming and mine can be different. I have Logos 4 working in a way that is acceptable to me. I'm sorry you don't.

Logos is almost certainly a one-size-all approach. Call it what you want it is what they offer and I am sure they have good reason for it. They are spending millions on product development, giving most of it away free, and have made choices you and others may disagree with. Slamming them isn't doing anyone any good.

I have no doubt that in time some of the issues you are concerned about will be addressed. Right now they are still developing core functions of the program. I doubt they can do all they want to do there, much less do what you are suggesting. So Logos 4 may not be for you right now and Logos 3 might be better.

I think you've demonstrated the limitations of Logos for the kind of set-up you wish to use. I imagine that will be helpful. But Logos 4 is usable, you've even said so. You will just have to use it differently than you'd like. I really don't see a problem with that other than being disappointed. In time Logos may enable you to use their software in the kind of set-up you desire. Now it doesn't. It isn't broken. It just is slow if one wants to do what you you have been doing. I think that is the bottom line.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85617#Comment_85617

Mark, you seem to be quite affable, and I certainly hope that my rebuttal to your contention doesn't come across as argumentative merely because of pricked pride.

OK were are waiting for you to say this. The program is free

Ahh, this is where we part ways. The program is decidedly *not* free. Many of the resources available via Logos 4 are available via other Bible software programs. Either way, people need to purchase the resources that they will be using. What is supposed to differentiate the various software programs is how the data is presented to the user. If Logos 4 made the statement "You purchase resources from us, don't expect the software to work." I would never have purchased the software.

If you can point me to an official statement from Logos where they state that their software is freeware (i.e. I'm not talking about those people who already had Libronix 3 and apparently as a nod to customer loyalty, Logos gave them a free upgrade), I'll concede the point that Logos 4 is free. But from looking at their website, for a new user of Logos, Logos 4 Platinum is $1700 and many claims are made about the presentation of the data (i.e. what makes Logos 4 so great is the interface to the data). I see nowhere on that page that the buyer is actually purchasing a free program for which the buyer should have no expectations.

http://www.logos.com/platinum

Slamming them isn't doing anyone any good.

Since you have stated that I am slamming them, allow me to state that I believe you are too soft on them. Logos is not a person. It is a company that provides (at a cost to the user, and for *profit* to the company) a product named Logos 4. It is supposed to work and work well. This is what people expect when they shell out thousands of dollars on software. Pointing out that the company was lacking in various ways for releasing a beta level product as RTM quality is not slamming them, it is holding them accountable to the deliverable. If it works fine for you and you're happy with it, great! But, please bear in mind that other users have different expectations as well as different experience levels with software, so they should not be chastised for demanding that the software perform as expected.

I think you've demonstrated the limitations of Logos for the kind of set-up you wish to use.

I have apparently hit this limitation by having two tabs open! The limit is hit fairly easily, and hence my contention that there is a serious architecture problem with the program.

Regardless of your perception that Logos 4 is free, the behavior reported by me is a defect in the design and renders 'Power Lookup' useless for any practical purpose.

God Bless,

Matt

I just opened this layout and I've been reading the introductory essay in BDAG (this means that in monitor 1, that BDAG was open, and in monitor 2, Power Lookup was open). Within BDAG, it reads "In the kingdoms of the Diadochi it expanded..." I don't know what Diadochi is, so I right-clicked on it. It took 18 seconds for the right-click context menu to fully appear. It first took 3-6 seconds for the word 'Diadochi' to be highlighted, then the rest of the time was spent rendering and displaying the text in the menu.

Hi Matt,

I just set up Logos 4 as you described in your first post above. I right-clicked on 'Diadochi' and the context menu came up immediately, then I clicked on one of the keylink dictionaries, which opened quickly as well. However, when I clicked the X to close the dictionary, it took a few seconds to close.

I'm curious whether you had any other programs running at the same time. On my 64-bit Window 7 system, with dual-core 2.33GHz processor and 4GB RAM, I had MS Word, MS Outlook, Windows Live Messenger, Internet Explorer, and anti-virus software, and VMWare running.

Also, have you tried opening just the BDAG and Power Lookup (rather than loading layout and closing other tabs), and does the same delay occur?

Thank you,
Melissa

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85654#Comment_85654

If you can point me to an official statement from Logos where they state that their software is freeware (i.e. I'm not talking about those people who already had Libronix 3 and apparently as a nod to customer loyalty, Logos gave them a free upgrade), I'll concede the point that Logos 4 is free.

http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/12/4_ways_to_move_to_logos_4.html

Logos software has always been free. The link to the free edition isn't too easy to find, but Phil Gons of Logos posted it in this blog article.

As he points out you will not get all the functionality you would get through paying for a collection, or for the minimal cross-grade (which includes a lot for $70). That is because the functions are tied to specific resources (most of which come in the minimal cross-grade). As far as I know you can purchase the cross-grade for $70 even if you don't have a previous version of Logos.

But, please bear in mind that other users have different expectations as well as different experience levels with software, so they should not be chastised for demanding that the software perform as expected.

I freely grant that. Logos has a generous 30 day return offer for anyone who finds the program not what they expected. Its a trial period, if you will, and it has all the features that the 'regular' software has. I believe that's fair. You should not spend $1,700 without being able to first determine if the software meets your expectations.

You have not checked out my many posts on the subject of expecting more from Logos. I have stated more than once I did not agree with some of their decisions re:Logos 4, but that didn't extent to saying that Logos doesn't know how to program in the 21st century which I think, if you didn't quite say that, it was implied. Again, I don't see that as helpful. I want a better product just as you do. I don't think telling Logos to start over (implied) is the way to get there.

I have apparently hit this limitation by having two tabs open! The limit is hit fairly easily, and hence my contention that there is a serious architecture problem with the program.

I don't think it was the two tabs, but as your further testing showed, the quantity of the potential information displayed on one of the tabs by the amount of material displayed on the other. That may be a significant software issue that Logos should address.

I routinely have 25-35 resources open in seven stacked panes and I did report my right click figures to you. So the limitation isn't so much about numbers of tabs but about the amount of material Power Lookup was trying to display, as you were able to discover through your testing.

I personally don't use Power Lookup because from the beginning it has slowed things down tremendously, and I don't get much from it I can't get some other way when I want it. You discovered 7 pages of info from one screen's worth of the BDAG. I am sure you did not nor would not take the time to read all of that. So perhaps what would help is setting up a workspace that gives you just the information you really want. Then instead of testing Logos 4's limitations you could see how it might be valuable to you in a more realistic setting. If you are still finding it to be unusable you'd have the option to return it.

I'd prefer you have a good experience with Logos 4 and hope it can work out that way. Waiting 3 seconds to access a ton of Biblical information that would take me much, much longer with print resources actually seems great to me.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85740#Comment_85740

http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/12/4_ways_to_move_to_logos_4.html

Logos software has always been free. The link to the free edition isn't too easy to find, but Phil Gons of Logos posted it in this blog article.

Mark, that post specifically states " If you haven’t upgraded to Logos 4 yet because you were waiting for some Christmas money..." i.e. the post is for people who already own previous versions of Logos software! The so-called free version lacks (and I quote):

"free Logos 4 core engine without a Logos 4 base package or the Minimal Crossgrade will be lacking many of the new databases and resources necessary to use features like Biblical People, Biblical Places, Biblical Things, the new reverse interlinears, many of the sections of the Guides and the Home Page, Logos controlled vocabulary database of synonymous terminology, and a few other things. You also won’t be able to use your current library of books on the iPhone app."

i.e. it lacks major features that are touted as some of the main strengths of the new version. I, as a purchaser of Logos 4, purchased all of the features that he mentions do *not* exist in the free version as well as those which do. What I purchased is not freeware. It is not helpful to Logos or to anyone else for you to imply that it is.

I don't think telling Logos to start over (implied) is the way to get there.

I hope I didn't imply that. I am stating that Power Lookup is broken for all intents and purposes and that I've witnessed a variety of resource contention issues which bog the program down and cause it to be frustrating for me to use.

I personally don't use Power Lookup because from the beginning it has slowed things down tremendously, and I don't get much from it I can't get some other way when I want it.

OK, your choice was to abandon the feature because it's unusable from your perspective. My choice is to hound Logos until they fix a feature that I paid for and that I find very important and/or acknowledge the problem and give me a timeline. Leave me be to do so. [;)]

You discovered 7 pages of info from one screen's worth of the BDAG. I am sure you did not nor would not take the time to read all of that.

Anyone who knows me would chuckle at that. Because I do read every single footnote! Every. Single. One. I always have Power Lookup open, and I now realize that the problem I've been having over the past couple of months has been just that. All of my saved layouts include a Power Lookup pane because I don't skip details to a fault. Just as an aside to underscore this, I used Libronix 3 briefly. I pointed out that parts of the English help system in Libronix 3 were interspersed with help written in German. The Logos reps were amazed that in years of the product being out, not a single person had reported it and were incredulous that they had not seen it before. I say this for no other reason than to validate that I am in earnest when I say that I read every single footnote and that Power Lookup is a very important feature to me.

Once again, I do appreciate the help you rendered in the beginning. However, Logos is not a missionary who is ministering to us. It's a software company that promises to deliver a product to its paying customers and it should be held accountable to do so, and there's nothing wrong with a customer communicating the problems discovered therein.

Matt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85784#Comment_85784

The so-called free version lacks (and I quote):

"free Logos 4 core engine

You quote the fact that Logos says it is free. I agree some of the functionality is not there in the free version. I said as much. You acknowledge Logos calls it free, offers it free, and you can obtain it for free. However according to your interpretation it isn't free. You make it hard to prove you wrong even when you are. You told me you'd thank the programmers if I could find any official statement that the engine was free. I've done that and now you want to go back on your word. That isn't good.

My choice is to hound Logos until they fix a feature that I paid for

I hate to repeat myself. Just the same, free or not, Logos says this is a feature we are going to have and I would like it to work. Lightning fast.

there's nothing wrong with a customer communicating the problems discovered therein

Matt I fully agree. I just don't agree that slamming the programmers is the way to go about it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85859#Comment_85859

Mark, shame on you, quoting me out of context to get your point across is bad. You seem to have a predilection for sophistry. That also is bad. I specifically stated as follows:

The page cited by you (as I already pointed out) is for existing customers looking to *upgrade.* Even if that weren't the case (which it most definitely is), our discussion was not whether some version existed that was free, it was whether my software (i.e. what I paid for) was free. You have completely failed to meet the objective I set. The post you cited is about as relevant as pointing me to the page where Logos actually states that their iPhone application is free. Great, I don't have the iPhone application, I have the Logos 4 Platinum edition. I don't have the 'free' upgrade version for existing Logos customers, I have the Logos 4 Platinum edition. I hope you can see the pattern and it's all becoming clear. Logos 4 Platinum was not free. I am unaware of any official Logos statement that defines the Logos 4 Platinum edition as freeware or that those who purchase it are only purchasing resources.

One thing that you have successfully proven is that your emotional attachment to your software and/or being 'right' far outweigh your dedication to honest discourse. That too is bad. I'll pray for you tonight.

God Bless,

Matt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85712#Comment_85712

Hello Melissa,

Thanks for your help on this. Please let me know if there's anything I can do to facilitate a resolution. I'll respond to your points and answer your questions in the order presented by you.

came up immediately, then I clicked on one of the keylink dictionaries, which opened quickly as well.

Are you sure you had it set up just as I did? As we've seen in this thread, others and myself, when displaying much less text (i.e. text that has less annotations that would be picked up by Power Lookup) have good response times. But, as text comes into view in BDAG and the number of annotations increase, the performance of Logos decreases precipitously). Below, I'll include the precise steps I follow to reach the aberrant behavior.

I'm curious whether you had any other programs running at the same time

When I run these tests, I make sure I have no other applications running other than Internet Explorer. Of course, the various system services are running. My free memory (with Logos 4 running) is ~13 GB. Logos 4 is only utilizing 94 MB of private memory at the beginning of the test, and at the end it is only utilizing 137 MB.

Also, have you tried opening just the BDAG and Power Lookup (rather than loading layout and closing other tabs), and does the same delay occur?

Per your suggestion, I have tried it and I ended up with the same results. Here are the precise steps I followed just now:

Open Logos 4
Minimize then maximize the Logos 4 window so that a black bar doesn't show up at the top (i.e. every time I open Logos 4 or a new layout, the title bar displays as a black bar unless I do this and has done this since I first installed Logos 4)
Click on the Library button
Type BDAG in the 'Find' window
Click on the icon for 'A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition' By default? on my system, it opens as a tab wherein the content of said tab occupies 1/2 of the screen on monitor 1 which is 1920x1200
With the mouse, hover over the right tab boundary so that the tab window is expanded to fill the screen on monitor 1 within the confines of the Logos 4 desktop
Scroll up and down with the mouse wheel, Page-Up, Page-Down, etc. The text in the window updates and displays quite rapidly. Right-clicking is also quite responsive
Navigate within the text of the BDAG until the text displayed at the top shows "

Ionic, as the dialect most closely related to Attic ..." and the last text visible at the bottom of the screen is "is occasionally found in classical times ..." (I have included a screen shot which shows my configuration)
Right-click on Tools->Power Lookup and select 'Open in a floating window'
Move the window to monitor 2 (1600x1200) and click on the Maximize button (on my system, dragging this window over to the 2nd monitor is very sluggish, i.e. as I drag, the mouse pointer will have moved 1/2 a screen width, but the Power Lookup window will still display in the same spot, but eventually, will appear under the mouse pointer)
Move about the BDAG window.　 Scroll down 10 or 12 pages, back up 10 or 12 pages, right-click on items from time to time, etc. On my system, many times I scroll up or down and the UI will freeze and display "Not Responding." As stated previously, right-click times are in the 15-25 second range.

I have tested with other resources, and the same behavior occurs whenever Power Lookup is utilized. It does seem particularly bad in BDAG. I believe that has something to do with the density of annotations, but wherever annotations are dense, the software becomes unusable.

Thanks,

Matt

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85905#Comment_85905

Matt,

Bob Pritchett has said numerous times that the engine is free. Anyone can download it. And they can use it with any libronix compatible resource. The company line is that the engine, the software, is free. When we buy a package it is a package of resources which can be read using the available engines (v3, v4, Mac 1, iPhone [with limitations]). A search of the forum for "free" written by "Bob" will provide places where he has said this.

That being said, during the private Beta, Bob responded to a challenge of mine by saying that we had never just paid for the resources, we had always paid for a system, the Libronix Library System - unfortunately, those posts were all pulled in the last week or so (by I did just come across this old one again before it disappeared).

So, my contribution... we receive mixed (official) messages.....The first is the overwhelmingly preponderant message... The engine is free. But, the second very occasionally pops up (we're paying for a complete system).

And, of course, they are selling "Logos Bible Software 4" on their website, which would imply that we are buying software. But, the engine has always, even in v3, been available as a separate free download, which would imply that the software and the resources are distinct.

Edwin Kwok

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85956#Comment_85956

Matt (and Mark),

The Mac 1.2 engine was not free, we (I) had to pay a small amount of around $60 or so. It is not too much money but nevertheless it was not free. To top it off, that small investment is down the drain now (but I don't really mind that).

Edwin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85958#Comment_85958

I'm mad!

I tried to run a full bible search on the word "The" with 45 windows open and every one of them linked and it took 45 seconds!

this is unacceptable and the programmers should have build a better product that meets MY EXPECTATIONS and my HARDWARE!

[:D]

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85987#Comment_85987

I'm mad!

I tried to run a full bible search on the word "The" with 45 windows open and every one of them linked and it took 45 seconds!

this is unacceptable and the programmers should have build a better product that meets MY EXPECTATIONS and my HARDWARE!

And this added to the conversation in what way?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85956#Comment_85956

And, of course, they are selling "Logos Bible Software 4" on their website, which would imply that we are buying software.

Damian, if you want to believe that Logos 4 was free to you, have at it. However, I paid for my software, and I have yet to see any official statement from Logos on their product pages that even implies that I purchased resources but that the engine is freeware. Any rational person who visited the product page, for let's say, Logos 4 Platinum, would come to the same conclusion. In any case, as I said, believe what you want. Please leave me to my delusion that I paid for Logos 4 Platinum. [:|]

Thanks,

Matt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85712#Comment_85712

I right-clicked on 'Diadochi' and the context menu came up immediately, then I clicked on one of the keylink dictionaries, which opened quickly as well.

Melissa, this is probably not relevant, but I'll throw it out there anyway: I have Logos 4 Alpha 12 for Mac installed on a computer I use occasionally at work, and although I don't have a dual monitor setup, I can configure the 27" screen so that the BDAG and Power Lookup each get roughly 1280x1440 (the resolution of the iMac's screen is 2560x1440). Although a bit choppy at times, the performance is quite good and none of the slowdowns that I witness on my PC exist (i.e. right-clicking is almost instantaneous, I can page up and down to my heart's content, etc. with no UI lockups).

Thanks,

Matt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86072#Comment_86072

Melissa, this is probably not relevant, but I'll throw it out there anyway: I have Logos 4 Alpha 12 for Mac installed on a computer I use occasionally at work, and although I don't have a dual monitor setup, I can configure the 27" screen so that the BDAG and Power Lookup each get roughly 1280x1440 (the resolution of the iMac's screen is 2560x1440). Although a bit choppy at times, the performance is quite good and none of the slowdowns that I witness on my PC exist (i.e. right-clicking is almost instantaneous, I can page up and down to my heart's content, etc. with no UI lockups).

It's not relevant for the PC issue, however, it is good to hear that Alpha 12 is working well for you. I haven't had a chance to go back over your steps in your previous post, however, I wonder if you could try starting up your PC with Startup items and non-Microsoft Services unloaded, to rule out possible software conflicts. If that disables your Internet, you can work offline for this test.

I also recommend checking for updates to your video card driver.

Thanks,
Melissa

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/85915#Comment_85915

Thanks for your help on this. Please let me know if there's anything I can do to facilitate a resolution. I'll respond to your points and answer your questions in the order presented by you.

I followed your exact steps, except that my monitors don't support 1920x1200 resolution, so I was short five lines of text in the BDAG on my screen. I did have the delay in dragging the Power Lookup window over to my second monitor, and navigating in the BDAG lagged noticeably, however, right-clicking to bring up the context menu was still immediate for me.

I've got some statistics from my system to provide to development, along with your information.

Thanks,
Melissa

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86104#Comment_86104

followed your exact steps, except that my monitors don't support 1920x1200 resolution, so I was short five lines of text in the BDAG on my screen. I did have the delay in dragging the Power Lookup window over to my second monitor, and navigating in the BDAG lagged noticeably, however, right-clicking to bring up the context menu was still immediate for me.

I've got some statistics from my system to provide to development, along with your information.

Melissa, thank you so much. If there's any additional information needed from me, or tests I should run, please don't hesitate to let me know. I have not yet had a chance to reboot my computer and shutdown non-essential services. I'll hopefully do that tonight.

Matt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86002#Comment_86002

I'm mad!

I tried to run a full bible search on the word "The" with 45 windows open and every one of them linked and it took 45 seconds!

this is unacceptable and the programmers should have build a better product that meets MY EXPECTATIONS and my HARDWARE!

And this added to the conversation in what way?

Terry,

It didn't and I probably should have checked my impulse. I just get tired of people using hyperbolic language when they want Logos to do something that they think it should, so they pronounce it useless or other terms.

I guess that's the society we live in...I don't know.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86173#Comment_86173

I'm mad!

I tried to run a full bible search on the word "The" with 45 windows open and every one of them linked and it took 45 seconds!

this is unacceptable and the programmers should have build a better product that meets MY EXPECTATIONS and my HARDWARE!

And this added to the conversation in what way?

Terry,

It didn't and I probably should have checked my impulse. I just get tired of people using hyperbolic language when they want Logos to do something that they think it should, so they pronounce it useless or other terms.

I guess that's the society we live in...I don't know.

I know how you feel Robert... I have 300 MS Word documents open and each document is 1,000 pages and it runs so slow that the software is absolutely useless. I am picketing outsider of Bill Gates house tonight if anyone wants to join me.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86173#Comment_86173

It didn't and I probably should have checked my impulse. I just get tired of people using hyperbolic language when they want Logos to do something that they think it should

Robert, I guess your interpretation of hyperbolic language and mine differ. If waiting 20-30 seconds for a right-click menu to appear is usable to you, or having the UI freeze up for 5-10 seconds when scrolling through text with two tabs open is fine for you, great. For me, it's not.

I happen to get tired of people anthropomorphizing their software purchases and then taking umbrage when somebody points out there's a problem with it in one way or another.

I guess that's the society we live in...I don't know.

However, I don't troll the forums looking for people to jump on for doing so.

Matt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86186#Comment_86186

I know how you feel Robert... I have 300 MS Word documents open and each document is 1,000 pages and it runs so slow that the software is absolutely useless. I am picketing outsider of Bill Gates house tonight if anyone wants to join me.

Joe, I would say that unless you have a tremendous amount of RAM, that you're probably hitting your paging file a lot. Just so you know, 300 documents @ 1000 pages each is a lot of data, and depending upon which version of Microsoft Word you have, it might also entail a new process container and its supporting thread for each document. Hence, your thread stacks will be getting swapped into and out of resident memory, as well as the page tables for the memory, not to mention the data itself! Even the data alone without the process overhead would be a lot for a typical system to handle It's quite understandable that you would experience a slowdown in such a situation.

Perhaps, try opening *two* documents, and if it isn't performing well with only *two* documents open, then I'd say you should file a bug with Microsoft (of course, validate that your OS is running well and is configured properly in all reasonable aspects).

Ultimately, your post would be more appropriate in a Microsoft Word forum. You'll find much more expertise there. This is the Logos 4 Bible Software forum.

Good luck,

Matt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86195#Comment_86195

Ultimately, your post would be more appropriate in a Microsoft Word forum. You'll find much more expertise there. This is the Logos 4 Bible Software forum.

ummm.. [^o)] yeah...[^o)] it was a joke Matt.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86200#Comment_86200

ummm.. yeah... it was a joke Matt.

Ahh, I see. Joe, thanks for the invaluable help you provided to me and other users who have slowdown issues with Power Lookup who happen to peruse this thread. Make sure you shine that star under your name.

Matt

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86061#Comment_86061

I have yet to see any official statement from Logos on their product pages that even implies that I purchased resources but that the engine is freeware.

Yeah, the engine has always been free. A Logos 3 user could upgrade to the barebones Logos 4 engine for free (see the very last Q on this FAQ): http://www.logos.com/4/faq. But Logos doesn't advertise that fact in a prominent place nor do they recommend it, because much of the power of the Logos 4 engine comes from the new resources that were created especially for it to take advantage of. OK, you could quibble over whether these new resources should be considered part of the Logos 4 engine, but technically they are not, since they aren't part of the .exe file, and Logos considers them (from a product/sales point of view) as separate entities. They come with the base resource packages, but not with the free engine. When new upgrade versions of the engine are released from here on out (as was 4.0a, and soon 4.0b, and so on) they are free as well, though there won't be as many major changes as the leap from 3.0 to 4.0 had.

Hope that settles the confusion.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86189#Comment_86189

It didn't and I probably should have checked my impulse. I just get tired of people using hyperbolic language when they want Logos to do something that they think it should

Robert, I guess your interpretation of hyperbolic language and mine differ. If waiting 20-30 seconds for a right-click menu to appear is usable to you, or having the UI freeze up for 5-10 seconds when scrolling through text with two tabs open is fine for you, great. For me, it's not.

I happen to get tired of people anthropomorphizing their software purchases and then taking umbrage when somebody points out there's a problem with it in one way or another.

I guess that's the society we live in...I don't know.

However, I don't troll the forums looking for people to jump on for doing so.

Matt

Matt,

I do apologize...I guess I'm just used to saying things like "unusable to me" or "the way I work it doesn't float my boat" or "It wouldn't work for me...it kept crashing on me"

So I probably overreacted to the "non personal" nature of the bare term "unusable" as if the fact that you are having a really bad time means the software is useless...period.

As I said...I apologize..my overreaction.

The bottom line is....there doesn't seem to be an across the board issue...some people have a great time; that's my experience...it COULDN'T BE FASTER but others like yourself, have horrible times....

PLEASE do avail yourself of the "learned lessons" on the wiki and see if things don't improve....ok?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86218#Comment_86218

PLEASE do avail yourself of the "learned lessons" on the wiki and see if things don't improve....ok?

Robert, thanks for your post. No harm no foul.

Matt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86211#Comment_86211

ummm.. yeah... it was a joke Matt.

Ahh, I see. Joe, thanks for the invaluable help you provided to me and other users who have slowdown issues with Power Lookup who happen to peruse this thread. Make sure you shine that star under your name.

Ah, sarcasm duly noted... Sorry brother you found it offensive for me to inject a bit of levity into the thread. I honestly had not read a single post in this thread, but Terry's so I took the opportunity to have some fun with Robert. Again, sorry my attempt to interject some humor caused you frustration. I will try and remember that for future interactions with you Matt.

Blessings

Edwin Kwok

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86215#Comment_86215

I have yet to see any official statement from Logos on their product pages that even implies that I purchased resources but that the engine is freeware.

Yeah, the engine has always been free. A Logos 3 user could upgrade to the barebones Logos 4 engine for free (see the very last Q on this FAQ): http://www.logos.com/4/faq. But Logos doesn't advertise that fact in a prominent place nor do they recommend it, because much of the power of the Logos 4 engine comes from the new resources that were created especially for it to take advantage of. OK, you could quibble over whether these new resources should be considered part of the Logos 4 engine, but technically they are not, since they aren't part of the .exe file, and Logos considers them (from a product/sales point of view) as separate entities. They come with the base resource packages, but not with the free engine. When new upgrade versions of the engine are released from here on out (as was 4.0a, and soon 4.0b, and so on) they are free as well, though there won't be as many major changes as the leap from 3.0 to 4.0 had.

Hope that settles the confusion.

That's not quite true as I have said above: Logos for Mac 1.2 engine was not free. We had to pay for it. If Logos engines are really (as in really) free, then that engine should have been free as well, but it was not (and it did not come with any new or extra resources).

I am willing to pay for my softwares, I don't complain about it. But the fact is the engine is not always free, and I suspect that Logos made a business/marketing decision in making it appears that the engine are free, and I think that it's a good business move. But it is not good for overzealous user/supporters then use that to trample on anyone with complaints about the software.

Edwin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86227#Comment_86227

but Terry's so I took the opportunity to have some fun with Robert.

Ok...I get it...I apologize for my remark about your avatar....we're even now [;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86215#Comment_86215

Hope that settles the confusion.

Hi Rosie. To me, it's a vacuosly true statement that the 'engine is free' because I didn't purchase a 'free engine,' I purchased Logos 4 Platinum and per the FAQ you linked, to, my engine is different in myriad ways.

In my mind (and I would argue to any rational person who visits the product pages), the software and the resources are a package deal, and like all software sold by a company, the customer has every right to have problems with the software addressed. If I had any perception whatsoever that Logos was selling me resources only and abdicating any responsibility on the software itself because it was freeware, I would never have purchased it, because that is absolutely ridiculous. Imagine the following as a business model for a software company:

Encarta: buy the resources, hope the freeware wrapper around them works out for you, if not, don't complain, it's freeware!
Brittanica: buy the resources, hope the freeware wrapper around them works out for you, if not, don't complain, it's freeware!
Oxford English Dictionary: buy the resources, hope the freeware wrapper around them works out for you, if not, don't complain, it's freeware! (This one is an excellent example by the way. I have owned the various versions of the OED over the years. It's a ~$250 program which is essentialy a software wrapper that gives access to all 20 volumes of the OED and the various addendums that have been made over the years. When I found a problem in their latest version, they issued a patch just for me, they didn't say "Oh, well, gee, that's too bad. We can't help you, we sold you resources not software!")
Logos 4: buy the resources, hope the freeware wrapper around them works out for you, if not, don't complain, it's freeware!

Ultimately, believe as you see fit. Gigabytes of resources without proper software to access them are useless, and I purchased both software and resources tailored to that software in the expectation that both the data and the software would perform admirably.

As a hopefully positive aside (mainly because I want to see Logos do well and get better and better!), I would posit that it is not helpful to Logos for users in this forum to be pushing the idea that a purchaser of Logos software should not feel Logos is accountable for how the software performs. Most people would never shell out thousands of dollars if there were any expectation or even a hint that Logos would not be held accountable to a deliverable. BTW, I've never received that impression from Logos itself, just from some of its more, err, vocal, adherents here in the forums.

Matt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86227#Comment_86227

Again, sorry my attempt to interject some humor caused you frustration. I will try and remember that for future interactions with you Matt.

For some reason, a scene from "Shadowlands" popped into my head. There's a scene where a pompous professor is pontificating and Debra Winger's character says to him "Are you attempting to be rude, or are you merely stupid?"

Matt

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86173#Comment_86173

It didn't and I probably should have checked my impulse. I just get tired of people using hyperbolic language when they want Logos to do something that they think it should, so they pronounce it useless or other terms.

Robert, I feel your pain and believe me brother, if I could have asked that question privately I would have. My intent was not to rebuke, but to edify. It is one of the reasons, I wish there was a hide button so that I would not be continually tempted to participate in threads where I will say something I will regret. [:#]

Disclaimer #1: Matt, these comments in no way reflect on you, your issues, or the language you are using because I haven't been following this thread.

Disclaimer #2: I hate having to put disclaimers on everything I write because of failure of the written medium to convey my true meanings/feelings and the sin nature of the people reading what I write and reading something into it I didn't intend! [;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86269#Comment_86269

Robert, I feel your pain and believe me brother, if I could have asked that question privately I would have. My intent was not to rebuke, but to edify. It is one of the reasons, I wish there was a hide button so that I would not be continually tempted to participate in threads where I will say something I will regret.

Terry,

no harm done brother...i have a problem with this and God is "refining me"...lol...little by little.

I've come to really appreciate everyone who posts at the forum and I feel like we are brothers in Christ...

Don't sweat it.

Now Thomas Black or Philip Spitzer...that's a different situation altogether...!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86257#Comment_86257

Again, sorry my attempt to interject some humor caused you frustration. I will try and remember that for future interactions with you Matt.

For some reason, a scene from "Shadowlands" popped into my head. There's a scene where a pompous professor is pontificating and Debra Winger's character says to him "Are you attempting to be rude, or are you merely stupid?"

Matt

only my close friends call me Debora [;)]

can't say I ever heard of the movie though.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86298#Comment_86298

can't say I ever heard of the movie though

It's a good performance by both Debra Winger and Anthony Hopkins on the life of C.S. Lewis. By my standard, not a great, but certainly, an enjoyable movie.

Matt

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/86243#Comment_86243

Yeah, the engine has always been free. A Logos 3 user could upgrade to the barebones Logos 4 engine for free (see the very last Q on this FAQ): http://www.logos.com/4/faq.

That's not quite true as I have said above: Logos for Mac 1.2 engine was not free. We had to pay for it. If Logos engines are really (as in really) free, then that engine should have been free as well, but it was not (and it did not come with any new or extra resources).

Ah, sorry. I didn't read your post carefully enough. And I wasn't aware they were charging for the Mac 1.2 engine. But to be fair (to me), I was only talking about Windows anyway (the FAQ I referred to was for Windows only).

Hi Rosie. To me, it's a vacuosly true statement that the 'engine is free' because I didn't purchase a 'free engine,' I purchased Logos 4 Platinum and per the FAQ you linked, to, my engine is different in myriad ways.

Indeed, it was merely vacuously true. That's all I was trying for. I was just quibbling over semantics on that one little point; should have made it clear I wasn't intending to undermine the rest of the thrust of your post which was very valid. I didn't deny that you paid for the engine. I was just saying that people (Windows users) can, if they want to, get a watered-down version of it for free, though it isn't recommended. I wasn't trying to defend Logos's practices, just explaining what they meant by saying "technically" it's "free" (for Windows users) -- though I certainly understand and can relate to the frustrations of users who have spent a lot of money on this software. I've spent over $10,000 on it over the years.

In my mind (and I would argue to any rational person who visits the product pages), the software and the resources are a package deal,

I heartily agree! I had no intention to walk into a landmine of counterarguments. I should have not even piped up, since what I had to say was so trivial and didn't contribute to the thread at all, forcing me now to recant and explain myself.

and like all software sold by a company, the customer has every right to have problems with the software addressed. If I had any perception whatsoever that Logos was selling me resources only and abdicating any responsibility on the software itself because it was freeware, I would never have purchased it, because that is absolutely ridiculous.

Yes, that would certainly be ridiculous. I agree 100% that users of Logos should expect to have their problems with the software addressed. I don't think I've ever heard them claim that because the engine is "free" they won't address your problems. In fact, they are quite dismayed that they haven't been able to keep up their usually fast response time on addressing user concerns: that is very important to them. You have every right to be upset.

Logos 4: buy the resources, hope the freeware wrapper around them works out for you, if not, don't complain, it's freeware!

Again, please don't interpret what I said to mean I think you shouldn't complain about problems in the engine. I complain about them all the time on this very forum![:)]

I would posit that it is not helpful to Logos for users in this forum to be pushing the idea that a purchaser of Logos software should not feel Logos is accountable for how the software performs. Most people would never shell out thousands of dollars if there were any expectation or even a hint that Logos would not be held accountable to a deliverable. BTW, I've never received that impression from Logos itself, just from some of its more, err, vocal, adherents here in the forums.

I never said that. I hope you're not painting me too with that brush stroke. I already like what color I am, thanks.[;)] Anyway, I was only responding to one sentence in your post, not taking it in the context of the discussion you were having with anyone else on this thread, thus I wasn't trying to defend anyone else's perspective. In fact, if I'd known you were in a heated argument with someone, I would have kept my nose out of it. I sometimes just skim around on these threads and pick up a line here or there without reading the whole context. Sorry for butting in.