Pre-Pub Pricing (Baker Books)

I was scanning through the new titles that are being produced from baker books. All the titles are prices as suggested retail. I thought the pre pub pricing was suppose to be cheaper. It says pre pub special but there is no special. Maybe I am just misunderstanding pre pub..

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Rosie Perera

That's strange. One or the other number must be a typo. Yes, pre-pub is supposed to be a discount off even the Logos "sale price" which is often lower than the SRP. Given that the SRP for the print version is $19.99 on Amazon.com (and you can get it for significantly less there), I think the "Pre-Pub Special" price must be a mistake.

Dan Pritchett? Are you reading this thread? (He'd be the one to look into this.)

Blair Laird

It seems all of the books on this list are like that .

Mark Barnes

You may remember that the Zondervan prepubs were also like this. Only the collections were discounted, individual books were offered on prepub at retail. Sadly, I expected to get taken for a ride by Zondervan - but I don't expect it from Baker. I do hope this is an error.

Mary-Ellen

If I paid the suggested retail price, I would want to receive a paper copy along with the digital book.

If Baker is planning to do like Fortress and others, and sell the paper books at retail with a CD included, I am disinclined to sign up for a retail price prepub without the additional paper copy as at least an option.

It's interesting to see publishers' approaches to electronic publishing. The Logos blog is encouraging users to pre-order Baker products to "send a message". I for one won't pre-order an e-book at regular hardcopy retail prices to send a different "message": it's unreasonable to expect users to pay the same amount for an e-book as a hardcopy. I understand there is formatting work that has to be done and that there are benefits of the e-format (shelf space & searching) but e-books don't require the investment in materials and distribution and that savings should be reflected in pricing rather than in the publisher's bottom-line. I'm sure I'm over-simplifying but in most cases I won't pay more for an e-book than I would for a hardcopy through Amazon or CBD.

Terry Poperszky

I think the "Pre-Pub Special" price must be a mistake

If so, then they made the same "mistake" on all the new Baker pre-pubs.

Allen Browne

While I'm very pleased to have the Baker titles, calling them pre-pubs but at full price feels misleading. The fact they did it with Zondervan titles as well doesn't change that.

The Who’s Afraid of Postmodernism? title is about 80% higher than the same book on Kindle. (Didn't check the others.)

Rene Atchley

Seems as though market success and dominance brings higher suggested retail prices with no discounts. Freedom at work I suppose...[:'(]

Edwin Bowden

It appears to me that Baker's philosophy is that print edition sales are not to be sacrificed because of electronic editions. The plus is that electronic editions are becoming available much quicker than previously in publishing.

I like the availability of electronic titles so that I don't have the double expense of first buying the print edition and some time later buy the electronic edition.

Whyndell Grizzard

Seems as though market success and dominance brings higher suggested retail prices with no discounts. Freedom at work I suppose...

Thats free market- but also remember- if you don't buy because of the expense they sooner or later get that message as well, which is also part of the free-market.

I have not purchased many of the Zondervan products because of pricing- and unless they reduce the price never will. I have most in print that I already have a substantial investment in and do not intend on doubling the damage.

God bless America where retain the freedom to do with our money as we will, well for a little while longer any way, only 3 years of the Dictator left and His hinch men and women.

Terry Poperszky

Freedom at work I suppose...

My choosing not to sign up for them is also "Freedom at work". [:D]

Keith Larson

Just to give an example of how ridiculous these prices are; one of the resources has a SRP of $17.99.

Logos eBook: $17.99

Amazon Paperback: $12.23

Kindle eBook: $9.99

I like having books in my Logos library, but NOT that much.

Stephen Egge

With no pre-pub discount .... just might wait and see if a set of interesting books shows up in a discounted collection in the future.

Steve

Brian Davidson

I will NOT pay full retail for ANY book (print or Logos). NOBODY pays full retail for books these days. This is absolutely ridiculous.

Kevin Becker

Here's my take. I am willing to pay MSRP for an e-book if it has a demonstrated benefit to being in Logos. Mostly these include dictionaries, commentaries, and original language tools ect. However, when it comes to the "trade paperback" category I am much less willing to make these purchases. Many of these books do not contain enough information to consult many times. Mostly they would be read and shelve material; paper works better in this regard. So, I would only buy this class of ebook if 1) the discount was good OR 2) I found myself flipping through the paper book often and decided that there was a definite benefit to getting it in the Logos format, then I could sell the print copy or keep it for loaning purposes.

I think Baker and Zondervan are potentially cutting off a large portion of revenue. It will be interesting to see what happens to this pricing model.

Ted Hans

Well, i shall not be investing much in the Baker stuff on Pre-Pub, for all the reasons given on this thread. I checked the price at Amazon to see how it compares & it is way out. Something is not right about all this & no rational has been given by Logos for this. Has there been a change in Logos philosophy when it comes to Pre-Pub? I would love to hear from Bob or Dan concerning this matter.

I now have a good reason not to invest heavily as i would have liked in digital books. It seems to me Baker & Zondervan are taking their customers for a ride. Hmm..what a gravy train! Stupid Ted, no one is forcing you to buy, just don't buy the Baker product should be your motto of protest.

I already have enough Logos product and Pre-Pub orders to last me a life time. So it does not make sense for me to throw away my money. Baker and Zondervan are entitled to have their products in Logos & i am also entitled to keep my money in my pocket! I am happy for those who regardless of the hefty price tag will still make the purchase and also happy that these great title are available in Logos.

That said, no offence to you guys at Logos as i suspect (i may be wrong) that Baker are responsible for setting the price. I shall still be looking at the Pre-Pub page for other good deals but i shall let the Baker stuff pass me. I may consider having Hoehner's Ephesians Exegetical Commentary if it appears in Logos but even at that i will not be amused. Just my opinion for what it is worth.

Ted

Friedrich

Not too sure about this.

Is Baker Greedy? Are the production and "rights" costs soo high, Logos has to charge this amount to break even?

All i can say is, i will buy IF I need the book, and even then I will weigh many factors. But I will not send a pre-pub message at the SRP. I will buy when it is necessary.

Glad Baker is coming on board. Not glad the price is what it is.

Bobby Terhune

What comes to my mind is a shift in thinking about electronic rights and the value of those rights. After the Apple announcement that it was letting publishers set their prices for books against Amazon's trying to force the publishers to accept Amazon's pricing model, we then hear McMillian publishing pulling their titles from Amazon's Kindel platform. Here is a quote from an article in the Wall Street Journal today.

"A fight between the publishing industry and online retailer Amazon.com Inc. heated up Thursday as a second publisher committed itself publicly to selling its electronic books through a new pricing model.

Late Thursday, Lagardere SCA's Hachette Book Group sent a letter to book agents stating that it would pursue with all retailers an e-book pricing formula like the one Apple Inc. has proposed using with its new iPad tablet device. David Young, the publisher's chief executive, wrote: "This new model helps protect the long-term viability of the book marketplace."

Hachette's effort follows a move by New York-based publisher Macmillan, whose books have been taken off of Amazon's Web site in a dispute over pricing. On Thursday, Macmillan said it is still trying to hash out terms with Amazon over the pricing of its e-books, and doesn't know when its books will be back for sale on the retailer's Web site.

Amazon halted sales of all Macmillan books last weekend after the publisher attempted to renegotiate its e-book terms in the wake of Apple unveiling the iPad. The iPad will compete as an e-book reader with Amazon's Kindle. But with the iPad, publishers will have more control over the pricing of their e-books; Amazon, to the dismay of publishers, hawks e-book best sellers for $9.99."

Ted Hans

But I will not send a pre-pub message at the SRP.

I will not buy at the SRP, others are welcome to.

All i can say is, i will buy IF I need the book, and even then I will weigh many factors.

Sorry, you may have misunderstood, i was not advising others not to buy just myself. Please feel free to go ahead with any purchase, it is your money not mine[:)].

Glad Baker is coming on board. Not glad the price is what it is.

To this i will say an Amen. I more or less said that in my previous post[:D]. Every blessings

Ted.

Bohuslav Wojnar

Glad Baker is coming on board. Not glad the price is what it is.

To this i will say an Amen. I more or less said that in my previous post. Every blessings

Ted.

Since it is already a second publisher doing the same thing it would really be nice to hear from Logos on that matter. It must have a reason and I don't believe it is Logos "invention" (the pricing of the Zondervan and now Baker prepubs).

Friedrich

All i can say is, i will buy IF I need the book, and even then I will weigh many factors.

Sorry, you may have misunderstood i was not advising others not to buy just myself. Please feel free to go ahead with any purchase, it is your money not mine.

Ted, FYI, while I did read your post (as I read the whole page), I wasn't responding specifically to you. If anything, my response was to the blog and my gut feel. Just didn't want you to think I had taken you out of context--i wasn't addressing your comment specifically at all. At the same time, I was not unaware of your comments, either--and you always write fair evaluations! [:)]

Westie

When you compare the per page cost of these Baker resources to the per page cost of “the complete works of Stephen Charnock” (which in my opinion is an outstanding resource), you have a very large difference. Stephen Charnock’s pre-pub price is 2.5 cents per page, and is 70% less than its retail price. The Baker pre-pub’s range from 6.5 cents per page, to over 11 cents per page and is selling at retail.

I think that the Pre-pub section should not list items for sale that do not meet certain discounts off of retail. Either that or the pre-pub page description should not read:

“The Pre-Pub program is a win-win for Logos and our users. Users get a deep discount in exchange for placing a pre-order for a specific product and Logos gets the assurance that sales will cover costs before incurring expenses”

Bob Pritchett

Everyone is trying to figure out pricing in the new world of digital content.

Electronic resources are not inherently cheaper to produce than paper; the paper / plastic that a book or song or movie are delivered on is not the big part of the production cost. And in many cases (especially books), the e-books sell many fewer copies. (Growing, but still single-digit percentages.) So fewer copies have to cover very similar production costs.

Some of our publishing partners have chosen to only license older, backlist titles that have already paid for themselves in print. Many users have requested Logos-compatible editions of the latest, freshest resources. On these resources publishers generally get 50% of the retail cost of paper sales, and as much or more on other e-book platforms. (Amazon's sale of e-books at $9.99 is generally at a loss -- they pay the publisher half of the retail, and eat the difference. It's believed they're doing this to A) sell more Kindles, establish themselves as the de facto channel for all e-book sales, a good place to be for the future, and C) force publishers and authors towards a pricing model of Amazon's choosing.)

When you see a paper book's retail price, you can be pretty sure the publisher is getting around 50% of that. If you see it sold for less than retail, it's because the indistinguishable retailers (every bookstore is pretty much the same, and every "web site and a warehouse" is, too) are competing

So you can see why publishers have been reluctant to do low-royalty licenses of their latest and greatest titles for e-book editions. They want (or rather, need, to stay in business) that "half-of-retail" on the first round of sales. And if the first round of sales are going digital, they still need to make as much on the digital copies.

Back when digital was always 4-5 years after the initial sale, and the book was on the backlist or out of print, any revenue was gravy -- the book had made its costs in print. That's not true when e-books start selling the same day as paper, and start taking a bigger share of the purchases.

So if Logos is a retailer, why don't we chop 25% off the list price, like Amazon or some web retailer? Because we don't (yet) have similar cost structures. Our sale of the book for Logos format costs more to execute and support than Amazon's. Amazon gets a paper copy, puts it in a database, and ships copies to you. Then they're done. We do more technical work, have to continue to update the software engine, provide tech support, etc. (Amazon may have to support you on the Kindle, but that's easier than supporting Logos desktop software, and you had to pay the for the Kindle. Our software was "free" -- with the cost of writing it supported from our cut of the book's sale.)

Will Baker books get cheaper? I don't know. Possibly. We may get some efficiencies. Publishers may decide to lower their prices after the book's been out a few years. (They do this now -- the paperback edition is just an excuse to sell it for less a few years after the hardback.)

In some ways, it's up to you. If you value front-list titles enough to pay front-list prices, we'll sell them. If you'd rather pay back-list prices for back-list titles, we'll stop offering these fresh titles and sell just back-list. This is an experiment.

As for accusations of profiteering, greed, etc.... it just seems silly. The beauty of capitalism (and I do think it's beautiful -- if ruthless! -- just like the other laws of God's universe, including the ruthless beauty "gravity") is that excessive profits are wiped out by competition.Trust me, publishers aren't getting rich, they are struggling to survive. We're doing a little better at Logos -- we're better prepared for the e-content world -- but we're standing on quicksand. It's changing every day.

If you think the full-retail price for a Baker title is too much, you can buy it in paper at lots of prices, on the Kindle, soon on the iPad, etc. If Baker and Logos are going to charge full-retail for a Logos-compatible edition, it needs to be worth it, in both tagging, functionality, support, and timeliness. If not, you will all take your business elsewhere.

The good news is, we haven't taken anything of the "old model" away. We're still offering fantastic deals on lots of books on pre-pub. But the old model never had this simultaneous print/e-book release of new titles, with the latest books that are being required by professors, used in today's classrooms, etc.

I welcome your feedback on whether or not that's important.

Rosie Perera

Thank you, Bob. That's a great explanation, and I'm bookmarking your reply so I can refer people to it in the future whenever they moan about the prices! [:)]

Rene Atchley

As an end user of several bible products I don't know the price structure or business model used by Logos but it does seem to be a successful one....even to the extent of dominating the market place over historical products like Quickverse or PC-Study Bible. It is also a good thing to describe the factors involved in pricing of prepub options which should help consumers to feel more comfortable with purchasing such products. However, the notion that profiteering isn't or cant take place because there is too much competition makes no sense to me given the market position of Logos in the Bible software universe. What competition? Pointing out possible reasons for a change in price structures or policy is sheer speculation on all of our parts (including me) and should be taken in that light I think. I am happy to own Logos products, in version 3 mode, and have bought more as my project needs are met by the large library. My hope is that I don't have to sell my license on the open market because I can't afford to keep updating it over the next several years. Thank you for your feed back Bob.

Frank Sauer

In some ways, it's up to you. If you value front-list titles enough to pay front-list prices, we'll sell them. If you'd rather pay back-list prices for back-list titles, we'll stop offering these fresh titles and sell just back-list. This is an experiment.

As for accusations of profiteering, greed, etc.... it just seems silly. The beauty of capitalism (and I do think it's beautiful -- if ruthless! -- just like the other laws of God's universe, including the ruthless beauty "gravity") is that excessive profits are wiped out by competition.Trust me, publishers aren't getting rich, they are struggling to survive. We're doing a little better at Logos -- we're better prepared for the e-content world -- but we're standing on quicksand. It's changing every day.

If you think the full-retail price for a Baker title is too much, you can buy it in paper at lots of prices, on the Kindle, soon on the iPad, etc. If Baker and Logos are going to charge full-retail for a Logos-compatible edition, it needs to be worth it, in both tagging, functionality, support, and timeliness. If not, you will all take your business elsewhere.

The good news is, we haven't taken anything of the "old model" away. We're still offering fantastic deals on lots of books on pre-pub. But the old model never had this simultaneous print/e-book release of new titles, with the latest books that are being required by professors, used in today's classrooms, etc.

I welcome your feedback on whether or not that's important.

Bob,

Great reply and as someone who really never uses Logos for a book reader; much more interested in the Bible Study aspect and will not invest in "reading" books; I appreciate the Logos model of business.

You are at least offering your customers what many have asked for, be it Zondervan or new items like those in pricing dispute by forum followers, but it does come down to whether or not those customers want them or not. So even though I doubtfully will ever be interested in most books that are being debated, I like that they are offered. Who knows maybe some day there will be one I'd like for Logos, though I don't see myself sitting at the computer to read a book, but I like the option and the fact that it is offered.

Now it comes down to supply and demand... If no one really buys, maybe Baker will work with Logos to lower the price... If it does sell, then the price is correct for the consumer market...

Be Blessed,

Frank

Jim VanSchoonhoven

Well, if I understand things right it, is not just publishers that are going through rough times right now, in fact who isn't, but is higher prices the answer?

But, the point that I would like to address is the stated purpose of the Pre-pub page. Bob, you know how things are changing with the publishers, and in light of these changes, many of these books no longer fulfill the goal of the Pre-pub page, is it possible that your customers would be better served with some kind of change to the Pre-pub page, this would head off a lot of hard feelings.

Have things changed to the point where you need two different types of pre-pubs, one for those that need those special deals in order to afford books and another page that contain all pre-pubs regardless of discount.

As you can see this topic hit a sore spot and it took off fast.

In Christ,

Jim

Bobby Terhune

Bob,

thank you for your very informative reply. I personally want front listed titles, and am willing to pay front list prices, I hope the price can be reduced but don't we all want that. That being said I would hope we could expect timley delivey of items that go into production. It seems that after titles are good to go they languish in the "under development status". For instance N t Wright's 3 vol work is going on 8 months in development., Maybe that is a good time frame but without knowing roughly when to expect it I'm left feeling like something I really want is dragging in development.

I am very thankful for all we have avalable in Logos, and I try to understand that there are complexities behind the scenes, but I think it would be helpful to all of us when a title goes under development we were given a 1st quarter or 2nd quarter type of time frame when to expect to recieve the item.

Thanks!

Tom Reynolds

I agree that these books don't belong on the pre-pub page given its stated purpose. Obviously Logos doesn't have another page but perhaps with hundreds of Baker titles coming (all singlely?) it might be a good idea. On the whole I don't think this process is going to work but perhaps you have received enough Zondervan orders to think that it will. Personally I won't be buying any Baker titles at full price. Here's an example of why not. I own Bock's Jesus Accordin to Scripture (080103308X), bought last year for a SS class I was teaching. It's a great book and very useful in preparing for my class. I haven't seen any other commentaries like it. However I won't be buying it for Logos because 1) I already own it and 2) It's not worth $36 to have it electronically. I love Logos and wish I had the money to afford all these volumes but that's simply not the case and I don't think it is something that Jesus would do either. That said, if you are interested in the gospels and don't own Bock - buy a copy or two - one for the church library.

Blair Laird

Here's my take. I am willing to pay MSRP for an e-book if it has a demonstrated benefit to being in Logos. Mostly these include dictionaries, commentaries, and original language tools ect. However, when it comes to the "trade paperback" category I am much less willing to make these purchases. Many of these books do not contain enough information to consult many times.

I totally agree. If it is not a reference material, I see no benefit to having it in logos.

Mike Childs

As ususal, Bob is quite reasonable. His point about simultaneous print / e-book release is well taken. I can see why a publisher would want simultaneous release to be equally priced - (though that is not the case with e-book novels released through Kindlle.) A publisher cannot be expected to hurt his own profits.

I prefer my resources through Logos, and appreciate what they offer. It is the quality and variety of what is offered that makes Logos so valuable. I realize that costs.

Of course, reality is that most of us have invested heavily in Logos during the L4 upgrade. Many of us have gone beyond the upgrade and purchased more additonal books to take advantage of the L4 features. Unlike the federal government, my deficit spending must come to an end. I had hoped to be able to replace almost all my paper books with Logos reources. I now see the foolishness of that. I will have to continue to use a variety of formats in study - Logos where possible, paper where necessary financially, pdf, html and whatever else I can afford. I think many are in similar circumstances. The tremendous volume of sales during the L4 startup was never expected to sustain.

I do not think any of us want to participate in any organized boycott of any Logos resources. What I can afford, I will buy. What I can't I will not buy. But I will not be ungrateful to Logos or Bob for the wonderful tool they have given us. I hope they sale a ton of Baker Books. Maybe this will get upgrades to several commentaries already in Logos format out quicker.

Daniel Lee

I was not suggesting a conspiracy or anything remotely unethical. However, I was not joking. This is a win-lose scenario if I ever saw one. The only conceivable "win" those who are placing these order will get is that they are helping a book go into production that they want in Logos format.

Thanks for clarifying, and I see your concern.

I do not think any of us want to participate in any organized boycott of any Logos resources. What I can afford, I will buy. What I can't I will not buy. But I will not be ungrateful to Logos or Bob for the wonderful tool they have given us. I hope they sale a ton of Baker Books. Maybe this will get upgrades to several commentaries already in Logos format out quicker.

I agree completely. Very well worded. We have to be wise about how we spend God's resources. I've been thinking about this recently, especially with a little boy on the way in a few months. [:)] I want Logos to do well, and I'll support where I can. I use Logos4 every day, saves me a lot of time in seminary classes, and I'm really excited about all the great books that were part of the upgrade. But for the moment I need to focus on using what I've been blessed to obtain.

Keith Larson

I hope they sale a ton of Baker Books.

Are you sure about this? The way capitalism works is the law of supply and demand. If there is a high demand for books in Logos format at 100% of MSRP. If Logos learns their customers will support such high prices, in time the average price of all Logos books will go up, because prices always raise to the level the market will allow. There is nothing moral or immoral about it. This is just how the system works.

As a consumers our only recourse is not to purchase products we believe are over priced, if enough people agree with us the price will go down, if not enough, the price will go up. So I hope that Logos does not sale any Baker Books at 100% MSRP. This is not an attack against Logos. It is just my way of participating in the free market system.

J. Morris

The pre-pub program clearly states that customers should expect a discount, when it isn't delivered, there is going to be issues with customers who expect the discount for signing up. Maybe the wording needs to be changed, so we don't expect too much.

Logos books are kind of a catch 22 for me (yes I read the book)... They carry more of a risk, (I have books that are over 100 yrs old and I don't get that kind of shelf life guarentee with my Logos resources)... yet my Logos resources are more 'usable'...

Maybe we have been spoiled in expecting discounts.... however, if it is part of the pre-pub program, I don't think those expectations of discounts we are accustomed to are out of line...

Which brings me back to maybe the pre-pub page needs some updating concerning it's wording and what the customer should expect... (which has always been a discount)...

Mark

With the launch of L4, Logos has done more than just change the engine to be much better. They have changed their philosophy and strategy. I for one think it will bring a windfall in the short run but will not survive the long haul. Many think their new style and philosophy is the best thing since slice bread. And that is great. Others are cutting back severely on their purchases, believing that the new philosophy is a big mistake. If you pay retail price during pre pub stage, you will can still order the resource later once it is out of pre pub stage at the same price. Why, therefore, would you want to pre order unless you want to make sure the resource makes it to publication? There is no incentive to pre ordering

David Wilson

I fail to see from where you are getting this change in philosophy and strategy.
This is an additional way of doing some new things not a change for everything.
For most cases the pre-pub concept and significant discounts remain as always.

What has happened is that a couple of new additions have been made with a different approach, the whole pre-pub concept has not changed.

Zondervan have offered some of their titles, and Baker have offered some new titles rather than just their older ones. If neither of them has yet learned that they can sell more to Logos users if they follow the earlier pattern and offer a significant pre-pub discount, then they will miss out. Apparently they have some inertia internally which is far from aligned to selling via the Logos format. We can prove to them that their reluctance is well founded by avoiding their offerings.

I think you are making an erroneous assumption however if you think we will always have the opportunity to pick the new titles up later if we do nothing now. If not enough sales are likely per these pre-pubs then no Logos edition will be produced. Then your only option will be a paper copy. Those who are satisfied with that state of affairs need do nothing.

The pre-pub concept is and always has been a means of testing whether or not there is enough interest to produce a Logos edition of the title. If there is not enough interest it will just not happen. Both Zondervan and Baker are obviously somewhat reluctant to go the Logos route. If Logos customers show lack of interest too, this will confirm to both of them that they should not bother offereing titles in Logos format. Win-win ? Hardly.....

William Norman

I have to agree with David and Mark in their opposition to the new sales strategy.

It is being implemented under a program that has historically been marketed as a means of providing discounts on products for customers wiling to share in the financial risk of Logos publishing the resources

There are some who will bash me for my statement, but here goes:

In my opinion calling the Zondervan and Baker products Pre-Pubs could be looked upon as false advertising. I feel that Logos is allowing it's loyal customers to be taken advantage of by marketing them in this fashion.

I have purchased many Logos products in Pre-pub. I will not be purchasing any under the Zondervan Baker model.

I already have Zondervan in Pradis 6. If Zondervan insists on the current pricing structure with no discount to current owners I will not be re-purchasing something I already own.

Looks like Baker is using the same model. Some books look pretty good in Pre-pub. Most do not. To those of you who enjoy being price gouged enjoy yourself. If I need it I will buy it. If not I will not

To those of you who would reply to this condemning me for not agreeing with the current direction of Logos "don't". You'll only be giving me your opinion. As you can see, I have my own.

If you want to be taken advantage of go ahead and enjoy it. I won't be joining you.

I have purchased and enjoyed many of the benefits that Logos software provides. I appreciate the things that Bob and the company try to do for us "the customers". But keep in mind we "customers" pay for this software. It is not a gift. I hope to remain a "customer", but I don't agree with paying more for electronic resources than I would pay for them in paper.

Friedrich

Both Zondervan and Baker are obviously somewhat reluctant to go the Logos route. If Logos customers show lack of interest too, this will confirm to both of them that they should not bother offereing titles in Logos format. Win-win ? Hardly.....

Here is a suggestion, and an open invitation: Zondervan and Baker, we, Logos Users all—who have spent into the thousands each year, in many cases—ask you to enter this discussion with us. We are YOUR customers too, and we believe your insight and interaction with us will go a long way to figuring out how to make something work out, for you, and for us. No need to keep Bob Pritchett as the sole spokesman and explainer. We value your resources and we value our own, as well.

Join us in this discussion, please.

Now, someone gussy that up a bit and see if they will respond. [O]

Rev. D.

Blair, thank you so much for asking the question. I looked at several of the Baker pre-pubs and instantly began to wonder about the price. Shortly thereafter, I saw your post in the forum which, based upon the discussion, even got Bob involved. Many of the posts, along with Bob's explanation, helped me to understand the pricing system a little more. Now that we have 24 inches of snow outside, and it's still snowing, I will have a lot of extra time to review all the conversation, as it relates to your initial question, in this thread. Your inquiry helped me a lot!

Be blessed, my brother!

Christina

David Lowther

I think you are making an erroneous assumption however if you think we will always have the opportunity to pick the new titles up later if we do nothing now. If not enough sales are likely per these pre-pubs then no Logos edition will be produced. Then your only option will be a paper copy. Those who are satisfied with that state of affairs need do nothing.

I am willing to assume that Zondervan and Baker Books are going to be involved in electronic publishing in one form or another and that if Logos is not a competitive option, they will eventually use some other format/delivery mechanism; maybe less powerful, but more affordable. I expect market forces will continue to play a part in the future of electronic books.

On a related note, I do not think that Zondervan and Baker Books are dictating to Logos how to present their offerings to Logos customers. Logos cannot reveal the terms and conditions they have with publishers, and it is possible that Logos is obligated to offer Zondervan and Baker Books products at SRP until after the products hit the market place, after 30 days, or something. Alternatively, it is possible that Logos has independently decided to offer the products at SRP until they know what path to take on pricing. I think it is highly unlikely that Logos was directed to list the new products in Pre-Pub. That was a Logos decision.

Context: I am a relatively new Logos user, but have used other Bible software for years. I am pleased with Logos 3, learning and excited about Logos 4 (love being able to get to my books with my iPhone), and I am looking forward to the future of electronic publishing and the power of digital books (though I am lover of bound books and the printed page). These forums are very useful, have great contributors, and it is great to see Bob and the Logos staff involved with the thoughts and opinions of their customers/users. Thanks.

MJ. Smith

Why, therefore, would you want to pre order unless you want to make sure the resource makes it to publication? There is no incentive to pre ordering

It still appears that there must be sufficient interest to trigger the development of the resource. Therefor, I "bic (or commit to purchase)" items that are of importance to me. I'd call that incentive.

Edwin Bowden

Just to give an example of how ridiculous these prices are; one of the resources has a SRP of $17.99.

Logos eBook: $17.99

Amazon Paperback: $12.23

Kindle eBook: $9.99

I like having books in my Logos library, but NOT that much.

That is comparing apples and studebakers (as a friend of mine likes to say).

Do the other electronic formats provide the capabilities of Logos format titles?

I don't buy a Logos title to "read."

It is a part of my electronic Bible study library. I have access to the information that I need In seconds, even if I don't know I have it or where it is. Those benefits do not come without a cost to the publisher (Logos).

That is why I buy Logos.

I'm not interested in other electronic formats.

toughski

Look, in the end the CONSUMER always wins. After all, he is the decision maker who controls his money. Take a DRM beast for example. When it was first introduced, consumers were at the mercy of labels, content that they paid for did not play where it used too. An outcry was HUGE but it fell on deaf ears... UNTIL "capitalism" kicked in. Sony, BMG,PARAMOUNT or xyz company really could care less about individual voices of consumers, but they surely paid attention to BestBuy and Walmart when these retailers had a ton of returns of DRM-crippled content. (BTW, consumers do have the right to return a product that does not work where it should).
Situation is similar with this pre-pub issue. Of course, copyright holders can charge as much as they want - it is a free economy after all. However, consumers have more leverage here - they can buy the same content, plus or minus the same functionality by buying a used book on amazon (it is amazing, how fast "front-list" titles are sold used). Who was at disadvantage? The retailer!
In the end, the one with fewer bargaining chips, I am afraid, is LOGOS. They need to have the content users want (publishers win) at the prices users will pay (consumers win) AND put all of the work in. This is a Warren Buffett economics 101. Here lies our test of loyalty, however. With all of its past history, Logos has been outstanding for us the customers. They have gone over and beyond fair. They have proven their loyalty to us, haven't they. So are YOU going to dump Logos for XYZ-reader if Logos' version of a book $1.00 more, $3.00? What is your price?
Personally, I am glad that the books are offered individually. First of all, now you can compare books "apples to apples" across different media to see which is a best value. Secondly, we do get "useless fluff" in some bundles that just clogs the Library view. Thirdly, I personally spend too much on buying collections, I would spend a lot less if I bought only books i need at the time, albeit at retail prices.
As a missionary, I really don't have a choice but have all-digital library. Have you ever tried to move 2500+ volumes of books every few months? I am in that minority of users that will pay MSRP, I will just have to order less and be more discerning. But what do you think?

Tes

I don't buy a Logos title to "read."

It is a part of my electronic Bible study library. I have access to the information that I need In seconds, even if I don't know I have it or where it is. Those benefits do not come without a cost to the publisher (Logos).

That is why I buy Logos.

I'm not interested in other electronic formats.

I am not involved in this thread,because it's up to me ,to buy or not.everybody has to decide for himself,so does Logos aswell,But the reason I am quoting this is I like simply what you have said,it is what I believe too.

J.R. Miller

I don't buy a Logos title to "read."

It is a part of my electronic Bible study library. I have access to the information that I need In seconds, even if I don't know I have it or where it is. Those benefits do not come without a cost to the publisher (Logos).

That is why I buy Logos.

I'm not interested in other electronic formats.

I am not involved in this thread,because it's up to me ,to buy or not.everybody has to decide for himself,so does Logos aswell,But the reason I am quoting this is I like simply what you have said,it is what I believe too.

[Y]

Bill Gordon

Electronic books offer far more profit to publishers than traditional books.

Expenses are lower because there are no printing costs and no storage or transportation expenses. Also, there is no risk that the publisher will have to take back inventory that stores cannot sell. Nor is there any risk that the publisher will print more copies than can be sold.

Revenue is also potentially higher. For example, there are no used books directly competing with the books sold by the publisher. Remember the besting book The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown? The hardcover lists for $26.40 but used copies are currently selling for 40 cents. The paperback lists for $14.95 but used copies are now selling for a penny. Unlike traditional books, most e-books cannot be resold after you read them. In addition, publishers never have to worry about a book going out of print since there is no cost associated with maintaining an inventory.

The profit margin for e-books is much higher than traditional books. This is why customers expect to get a price break when purchasing an e-book.

Robert Lombardi

This explanation doesn't make sense. I recently listened to a musician explain how it is much cheaper to produce MP3's than CD's. I would imagine the same is true for electronic vs. paper. A book has to be printed, bound, stored, shipped, handled. An electronic book just needs to be converted into the Logos format once. This doesn't make sense that the print book is cheaper than the electronic. Somebody is pocketing some extra money somewhere.

Bob Pritchett

Somebody is pocketing some extra money somewhere.

That's just not true. It may be true in the future, and may even be true for Kindle-type e-books, but it isn't true today about Logos-compatible editions. In a paper book you use italic type to indicate emphasis, Latin phrases, maybe quotations. In a Logos book we have to have someone look at it and mark it up correctly, so a word lookup correctly goes to the Latin dictionary, etc. If the author writes "Josephus, in the first chapter of his Wars of the Jews, wrote that..." they just print it. We have to tag it and link it correctly to the exact right reference. Take a look at a commentary, full of "and then in v. 5, Paul writes" type references. Is that verse five of the chapter this commentary section is on, or verse five following the earlier reference to verses 1-4 in a different chapter? A human has to review and tag these ambiguous references, which isn't done in print.

Bob Pritchett

All this feedback is fascinating, and I appreciate it. (Though I must confess the stuff that borders on character assassination is getting on my nerves. I'm glad you're all so passionate about Logos, but come on, we're just offering something for sale. You can buy it or not. It's not a moral point, it's a business transaction.)

The funny thing is, nothing is being offered at over retail price. We're just all so used to thing being offered for less than list price that list price seems like some kind of offensive thing.

I harbor all kinds of fantasies about how we can equip the world for pennies. We even try a variety of experiments to make it happen. The problem is, it just doesn't work. There's too much friction in the market, too many people who want hand-holding or to ask questions or get support, and it costs (even in this electronic age) too much to get the word out.

Zondervan is a $200+ million company. So if every nominal Christian in America sent them $1 a year, they could make everything they produce each year available to all.

Why don't they do this? Because it woudl cost more than $1/person to administer and support the program, and even then people would say things like "I hate all their books! I don't want to send them $5 a year [for a family of five] for that stuff! They publish <whatever-heresey> and I won't support it!"

And, even if we DID all sign up for the program, how would they find the right mix of content to deliver? What if they only did protestant canon material and annoyed some people? What if their BIble translation was too literal, or too dynamic, or too conservative? What if their Christian fiction was all Scottish highlands based when everyone wanted Amish romance?

So they do what works, even though it costs those of us who purchase their material more, and keeps the content in fewer hands: they produce products they think will work, at prices they think people will pay, and then the market tells them if they're right, what it wants more/less of, etc.

The idea that this experiment with Baker (and the release of Zondervan titles) is some kind of conspiracy to move everyone to more expensive content is ridiculous. I'd be offended if it wasn't just silly.

We need to generate millions of dollars of revenue each year to meet our obligations. (Payroll, rent, computers, phones, coffee, etc. for 175+ people.) We literally can not take advantage of you. Because every single day we need you, collectively, to be buying more content from us, or we go out of business and are unemployed. Yes, there are predatory business practices. Sometimes a big company cuts prices and drives competitors out of business, then raises prices. It can take a while for the market to punish this, and for little competitors to re-emerge, etc.

We don't have this strength. There are myriad places you can buy the content we sell, in many formats.

We aren't in a geographically constrained market. You are our only customers. We don't have people in cities around the world subsidizing our attempt to manipulate prices in your town. The Internet is one town. If we want to be in business next year, we need to take care of you -- all of you -- this year.

Again, publishers are struggling to survive. Most Christian publishers have been laying people off. They are in no position to be rubbing greedy hands together and manipulating prices higher so they can roll around in rooms full of cash. They just want to eat. The $9.99 e-book is not an accurate reflection of the market's new cost structure, (though it may be someday), it's one company's subsidized attempt to destroy its competitors. (Amazon.com now works directly with authors to create e-books and print on demand titles. They are trying to kill traditional publishers, and have been eating losses in e-book sales to reset consumer expectations, which they're apparently doing successfully. And I'm not making any judgment on this -- it's the nature of competition -- I'm just saying the $9.99 is a number with artificial influence.)

We are now experimenting with new models with publishers in response to your requests. As many of you have kindly pointed out, nothing about our new Baker deal changes anything about existing deals. We aren't raising prices. If we didn't do things this way, we simply would not be offering these titles. Success with a Baker title is just that -- success with a Baker title. There are components of the deal (that I won't go into) that make it a unique situation. The publishers who've chosen other paths aren't seeing any reason to change their program.

It's also important to note that this is not a price increase. This is an attempt to get for these titles what the publisher is already getting for them. The alternative isn't to offer these cheaper, it's to not yet offer them at all. There isn't a comparison between Baker Book A with "this model" vs. "last month's model". Last month these books were only available in paper, and the wholesale price was the same. (The only difference is that we aren't discounting the retail they way some paper vendors might, but we have real costs and scale issues that are different from online paper retailers.)

With regards to the description of pre-pub: It's interesting to see how pre-pub has taken on a very specific meaning for many of you, and that's fine. In my mind, though, it still means one thing: We offer it for sale "pre-publication", and only produce it if there's enough interest. The discount for early orders is an incentive to force decisions, not a promise inherent in the words "pre-publication."

So what's the incentive when it's offered at full-price? Well, the book itself. If there aren't enough orders, it just won't be available.

This non-financial incentive will probably only work with "hot" titles, but that's fine. For titles that aren't "hot," we'll be forced to offer a time-based discount, as we presently do for so many things.

These discounts and the false sense of urgency they create could seem a bit silly. Why not just set one price and offer all the titles at that price forever? Isn't that more fair?

Maybe. Except it just won't work. Because of real-world issues like cash flow, and the need to minimize money-losing projects, etc. To sell one copy I need to pay 100% of productions costs. It may be true that every book will cover production costs over the next 10 years, but that means we'd need massive amounts of cash to do 10 years worth of production up front, to be earned back over 10 years. And cash itself costs money. So this false sense of urgency we create with pre-pub discounts isn't really false. It is a way to identify your top priorities, incentivize early decision making, and share the benefit we receive from your early decision making with you. And ultimately it cuts our costs (by eliminating our need to pay interest on the money required to cover 100% of production costs before the first sale).

With regards to incremental costs, and the extra units we'd pick up by making things cheaper... the problem is there's limited demand for the content, and people don't all value it the same. Yes, 300 copies of a commentary set at $1,000 nets $300,000. And maybe I could sell more copies at $500. And 600 x $500 also equals $300,000. But somewhere you stop picking up new customers as fast as you drop the price. At $1, the commentary is a steal. But I don't have 300,000 customers. Moreover, there may not be 300,000 people who care about it anywhere on earth. So what about 30,000 people at $10? We still don't know enough likely buyers. 15,000 at $20? Well, we know that many buyers, but at $20 people start to wonder if they really want that set, or maybe would rather have a different set. And if there are three $1,000 commentary sets, I'm going to need 45,000 customers at $20, etc.

And even if I sold 15,000 copies at $20, I now have distribution and customer service and tech support costs for a lot more people. And with $20/unit, and customer service reps costing more than that per hour (when you add up salary, healthcare, phone, computer, space, coffee, etc.), a single phone call wipes out all the revenue.

There is a price-demand curve, and it's mysterious. Halving the price doesn't always double sales. Sometimes it triples sales, sometimes it doesn't affect them at all. (You can drop the price of a unicycle from $160 to $80 and I still won't buy one. You can drop it to $5 and I won't buy one. Turns out, the same goes for a Coptic lexicon, and even some large Bible commentaries. Some things I just don't need or can't use.)

We use community pricing to show you how these curves work. The fact that the curves have different shapes shows this. If demand and price are perfectly linked, the curve is straight and perfectly horizontal. If there's any peak, it reveals a "magic number" at which revenue is maximized.

Now, all that said, I still like the fantasy models where we're able to give you more for less. And they aren't complete fantasies. Government works this way: everybody gets taxed, and then services no one would buy (or could afford to buy, like national defense) are made available to the whole group. Cable television works this way, too: you pay $50+ per month and millions of dollars of entertainment is piped to your house. You could not afford any of those movies, and yet you get them all for $50 because the cost is shared with millions of other people.

The only problem is, you and I both don't like much of what the government chooses to do (on our behalf), and we often don't care much about what's on TV either. So we still go and buy services, products, and movies directly. We pay $11 to sit in a theater sometimes to see the movie we want to see right now, instead of staying home where it's likely there are 10 movies available simultaneously, already paid for in our cable subscription.

What's the answer? There isn't just one. It's a messy world, full of many opinions, different ideas of what's important, competing priorities, and limited resources. We're working through it, just like you. In our defense, I'd argue that Logos offers more pricing models and more transparency than any other digital content provider. We have "stuff for sale." We have sales. We have pre-pub. We have community pricing. We have stand-alone books and bundled products and once-in-a-while crazy discount systems like Logos March Madness. At some point we'll offer some things by subscription, too.

On average, 300 people participate in each Community Pricing offering. I know for a fact that if every Logos user put a bid on every Community Pricing book, the price on every title would be the posted minimum. We'd make money, cover costs, and deliver each title at the lowest price shown. (We could even slide the scale down for most. titles to around $2 or less.) The problem is, there are some books some people don't care about at any price. And other people want to engage in game theory to minimize their own risk. True, it works for one person. But it raises the overall costs to the community. (I'm not complaining -- it's how we all work, and how economics works.)

I run the numbers on creative pricing all the time. I would love to offer a $20/month deal that made everything we ever produced (and more each year) available to every subscriber. At $240/year that would be a better deal than what most of you invest with us each year, and would make a massive library available. The problem is, it would take tens of thousands of customers. And a lot of convincing authors and publishers. And there'd be complaints/cancellations because this year there were too many Hebrew books, or Greek books, or Calvinist books, or Wesleyan books, etc. And we'd have a whole new world of costs finding and keeping subscribers. And sadly -- the big problem -- there simply may not be enough people who care enough about Bible study to invest $240/year. (Or at least not enough to equal the revenue earned the way we're doing things now.) Even some of you might say that a single purchase of Bible Study Library meets your needs for years, and you don't need to keep paying for more books, because you can't read all the ones you have.

But we're still working on it, and someday, may be able to make it work.

I appreciate your feedback, and don't mind the criticisms. I hope, though, that you'll appreciate that our desire is to serve you well. Yes, we want to make a profit. But we're trying to do that while making as much content available to as many people as possible.

Mark Smith

This doesn't make sense that the print book is cheaper than the electronic.

Compare apples to apples. It is cheaper to produce a paperback book
than a hard cover, mp3 than CD. They are the same content, the binding/delivery form of one is much
less costly. If you charge the same for both, then, barring other
differences, you will making more profit on the paperback/mp3
edition.

Electronic texts like Logos can't be directly compared to print
editions or CDs. If an electronic text could be produced by using the data
files that made up the print edition by simply pushing a button, then
charging the same for such a text produces greater profit per sale for
the reasons you cited. The trouble for Logos is that there is no such button to push and you are not getting an equivalent to the printed book. You are getting much more (at least for some types of texts). While we might not like to pay the same (or more) as for a hard back book, the cost may be justified by the additional benefit we receive for the extra features Logos provides. Those costs are not necessarily offset by the savings you pointed out.

For me the difference comes when a text truly benefits from being published in Logos format. A text with little need for hyper-linking, pop-ups, etc. does not have as much added value in Logos format so I'd be reluctant to pay the same premium for it than I would for texts in which hyper-linking, pop-ups and the like truly enhance the electronic version. Right now most of the Baker titles on pre-pub seem to be of the former nature and therefore will not make it into my shopping cart.

MJ. Smith

Though I must confess the stuff that borders on character assassination is getting on my nerves.

On my nerves too. Thanks for stepping in.

BillS

Though I must confess the stuff that borders on character assassination is getting on my nerves.

On my nerves too. Thanks for stepping in.

[Y] +1

Bill Gordon

Amazon.com now works directly with authors to create e-books and print on demand titles. They are trying to kill traditional publishers, and have been eating losses in e-book sales to reset consumer expectations, which they're apparently doing successfully. And I'm not making any judgment on this -- it's the nature of competition -- I'm just saying the $9.99 is a number with artificial influence.

You are correct about them trying to kill traditional publishers. Amazon recently offered authors 70% royalties on eBooks.

By the way, were you aware that Logos was favorably mentioned in the book An Uncommon Union: Dallas Theological Seminary and American Evangelicalism by John D. Hannah?

Edwin Bowden

Though I must confess the stuff that borders on character assassination is getting on my nerves.

On my nerves too. Thanks for stepping in.

[Y]

Mike Aubrey

Though I must confess the stuff that borders
on character assassination is getting on my nerves.

That's definitely putting it nicely.

Jack Caviness

Though I must confess the stuff that borders on character assassination is getting on my nerves.

On my nerves too. Thanks for stepping in.

I also agree.

Friedrich

What if their Christian fiction was all Scottish highlands based when everyone wanted Amish romance?

This has got to be your best line ever!!! Thanks for such a great start to my day!

With regards to the description of pre-pub: It's interesting to see how pre-pub has taken on a very specific meaning for many of you, and that's fine. In my mind, though, it still means one thing: We offer it for sale "pre-publication", and only produce it if there's enough interest. The discount for early orders is an incentive to force decisions, not a promise inherent in the words "pre-publication."

This is very true. And that has crossed my mind as many have complained (and even I "argued" for taking at least a couple dollars off the new Baker Books, and also expressed my suspicious frustration--perhaps based on previous annoying experiences on the whole with them--with Z's new offerings). Even with my own whining, I realize "pre-pub" means just what you said it does. While I did not share the abundant sense of being betrayed--if the pre-pub page wording wasn't changed to "reflect" the Baker deal, or that Logos has suddenly turned into a money grubbing corporation, let's call you "Big Epub" from now on--it is not unreasonable for people to be confused/upset/surprised/disappointed at a perceived "policy change." I think you understand that. And that is the image that Logos portrayed, even stated. Someone suggested that it would have helped a lot to have clearer, more "up-front" (in the sense of disclosure regarding the departure from the norm) communication about that. That said, i don't feel any animosity toward Logos and I think we ALL share responsibility to check our reactions based on our disappointment at the loss of pre-pub discount.

Perhaps some of us DO feel entitled. Perhaps some of us are stressed by money issues already and not getting a perceived "good deal" takes away a rationalization to buy ([:O][:P]). That said, I am very glad Baker has entered in to this way with Logos. yeah, I STILL wish they were cheaper, but I don't see a conspiracy, and I will probably buy some of those resources, even if I can get them 50% cheaper in hard copy. I love Logos, I want it to get better, not worse. And I want it to last. thanks.

Hmmmm. could there be a "Logos Lite", with all these "reading books" in a cheap production edition, and regular Logos with great tagging? Maybe the two levels would increase Logos' reach, and increase sales. I could see myself getting books in both styles. Some reading books like "Simple Church" in Logos Lite, and other, more intense books (with tagging/searching capability to the max) at full SRP, as I need them.

Matthew C Jones

(and even I "argued" for taking at least a couple dollars off the new Baker Books, and also expressed my suspicious frustration--perhaps based on previous annoying experiences on the whole with them--with Z's new offerings). Even with my own whining, I realize "pre-pub" means just what you said it does.

As mentioned earlier, we have come to expect Pre-Pubs to be heavily discounted based on past practice. Don't get mad at Logos for successfully using an advertising technique. Every day we respond to ads that promise "up to 90% off." Just be glad some Pre-Pubs are discounted and go from there. All that really matters in a business deal is if the Buyer & Seller agree on a price. I like having the opportunity to decide for myself rather than not have any chance at all to purchase.

Perhaps some of us DO feel entitled.

Some are feeling entitled because they invested in large collections with Zondervan only to pay retail again. I have no sense of entitlement with Baker. I have purchased previous Baker collections and saved a lot. I am very happy with Baker's track record. Their software still works fine whereas Pradis never has been finessed. Baker's mistake in their current pricing was being realistic in setting their retail prices. Academic titles from Sheffield, Paternoster, Brill and most every college bookstore go for hundreds of dollars each, not $19.99. I would feel much better to buy a Baker title at their current Pre-Pub prices if they would only list their retail at 4x what they do. If you examine Baker's Pre-Pub Collections the per book price is no different than the new listings in Pre-Pub. The only difference is we get to pick & choose individual titles.

Hmmmm. could there be a "Logos Lite", with all these "reading books" in a cheap production edition, and regular Logos with great tagging? Maybe the two levels would increase Logos' reach, and increase sales. I could see myself getting books in both styles. Some reading books like "Simple Church" in Logos Lite, and other, more intense books (with tagging/searching capability to the max) at full SRP, as I need them.

Logos is the PERFECT software for academic & vocational use. In the past I would not have considered Logos for just "reading." Bob has changed all that with the introduction of the iPhone app and the "cloud" model of having a downloadable library with online access. Logos is now nearly the panacea of Bible software. My hope is to see Logos further expand to include the LOEB library and other "secular" works. btw: The Harvard Classics is on Pre-Pub. http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/3661

Do you know about the Nelson 501 book unlock? http://www.logos.com/products/details/5905
This is a good example of how to mass market the "reading" material. I don't expect to get the same percentage discounted off "academic" or reference titles.

Friedrich

(and even I "argued" for taking at least a couple dollars off the new Baker Books, and also expressed my suspicious frustration--perhaps based on previous annoying experiences on the whole with them--with Z's new offerings). Even with my own whining, I realize "pre-pub" means just what you said it does.

As mentioned earlier, we have come to expect Pre-Pubs to be heavily discounted based on past practice. Don't get mad at Logos for successfully using an advertising technique. Every day we respond to ads that promise "up to 90% off." Just be glad some Pre-Pubs are discounted and go from there. All that really matters in a business deal is if the Buyer & Seller agree on a price. I like having the opportunity to decide for myself rather than not have any chance at all to purchase.

Perhaps some of us DO feel entitled.

Some are feeling entitled because they invested in large collections with Zondervan only to pay retail again. I have no sense of entitlement with Baker. I have purchased previous Baker collections and saved a lot. I am very happy with Baker's track record. Their software still works fine whereas Pradis never has been finessed. Baker's mistake in their current pricing was being realistic in setting their retail prices. Academic titles from Sheffield, Paternoster, Brill and most every college bookstore go for hundreds of dollars each, not $19.99. I would feel much better to buy a Baker title at their current Pre-Pub prices if they would only list their retail at 4x what they do. If you examine Baker's Pre-Pub Collections the per book price is no different than the new listings in Pre-Pub. The only difference is we get to pick & choose individual titles.

Hmmmm. could there be a "Logos Lite", with all these "reading books" in a cheap production edition, and regular Logos with great tagging? Maybe the two levels would increase Logos' reach, and increase sales. I could see myself getting books in both styles. Some reading books like "Simple Church" in Logos Lite, and other, more intense books (with tagging/searching capability to the max) at full SRP, as I need them.

Logos is the PERFECT software for academic & vocational use. In the past I would not have considered Logos for just "reading." Bob has changed all that with the introduction of the iPhone app and the "cloud" model of having a downloadable library with online access. Logos is now nearly the panacea of Bible software. My hope is to see Logos further expand to include the LOEB library and other "secular" works. btw: The Harvard Classics is on Pre-Pub. http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/3661

Do you know about the Nelson 501 book unlock? http://www.logos.com/products/details/5905
This is a good example of how to mass market the "reading" material. I don't expect to get the same percentage discounted off "academic" or reference titles.

Hi Matthew,

Not sure if you understood me correctly or maybe I am not understanding your response exactly. Like "just be glad some Pre-pubs are discounted and go from there" (I am glad pre-pubs are discounted, and although I expressed that psychologically I might like a few dollars off on Baker's prepubs, I understand what is going on--to a degree--that they are not). Also "don't get mad at Logos for a successfully using an advertising technique". Not sure who that was directed at, nor what it exactly means. (I am not being sarcastic or defensive, i really don't know. Peace, Matthew!)

Dan

Aaron Baldridge

Exactly. It makes no sense to pay full retail price for e copies of books that you can get for 20% or more by using nearly every Christian bookstores minister discount (for those of us that our ministers. Realize that there are many others that use Logos). Often I can save even more by buying from Amazon or CBD. Publishers need to understand that if they want their electronic divisions to succeed that they MUST price them to succeed. That's just the economic reality!

Aaron

J. Morris

Even after all my whining and complaining.... I just couldn't help but jump on this pre-pub.... Looks to good.... (cowering in shame)

http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5990

Edwin Bowden

Even after all my whining and complaining.... I just couldn't help but jump on this pre-pub.... Looks to good.... (cowering in shame)

http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5990

At least you have the opportunity and choice to purchase it in Logos format -- at any price.

If Bob had insisted to Baker that Logos would only publish it if he could sell it heavily discounted, you would not have had that opportunity.

Bill Gordon

Even after all my whining and complaining.... I just couldn't help but jump on this pre-pub.... Looks to good.... (cowering in shame)

http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5990

Thanks for the recommendation. I bought it. It looks like a great book. I will listen to it on my Kindle while I drive home today. No wait and a lot less money.

I would have preferred to have bought the book from Logos so it would be part of my general library. But Amazon got my money because it was only 40% of the cost of the Logos version.

Don’t get me wrong. I want Logos to succeed. I’ve already invested in purchasing nearly 3000 books from Logos.