How do you use Logos? How can we improve it?
Comments
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Scott Spinola said:
My point was that that preference was not a solution to the problem of layouts not auto-saving
What you have to recognize is that I DON'T want a layout autosaving - it would screw me over royally. But I do understand why some people want autosaving - and there is a workflow that meets their requirement. An autosave feature would not have a workflow that met my requirement but would require the addition of an override switch. The difference is that I rarely use Logos to work through a resource sequentially - I work on lessons and lectionary based liturgy which rarely has me using resources sequentially.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Scott Spinola said:
I can't imagine a scenario where starting in then exact same place is worthwhile and don't really need to. To each his own. If that's something people want to do (as you said you do), a simple preference called "Auto-Save Layouts" would do the job. But it ought to default to be on, since I think that makes the most intuitive sense to people.
I would think that auto-saving would be an annoyance in general, since it puts the "housekeeping" burden on the user who has to remember to close any tabs they wouldn't want to automatically open again, before quitting the program (or close them the next day, when they open if they forgot to previously close them).
I also would think that any notion of "auto-saving" layouts would have to be configured on a layout-by-layout basis, rather than a global preference. Determining whether a layout should or shouldn't auto-save doesn't seem like a simple notion that someone would intuitively understand. It merely adds additional complexity to the layout UI, which already has a per-layout "Update to current snapshot" option.
Personally, I never save any layouts before closing, and wouldn't want any layout I use to ever auto-save, as I've almost always opened other specific tabs in the course of the day that I wouldn't need to open again for the next day.
Here are a couple of examples where the "exact same place" is useful:
- The Home Page layouts (e.g., Bible Reading Plan) is a perfect example of a layout that adjusts to today's reading, without ever needing to "auto-save" to remember where you left off.
- (Mobile Ed and) the Courses tool also start in the "same" place. The Courses tool remembers where you left off in a course, not the layout. (I want the course's layout to open in the exact same initial way (e.g., with this particular arrangement of notes, passage lists, etc.), but don't want every recommended reading from a previous session to also open.)
Andrew116 said:
the way it currently works is exactly how I assumed as a new user and exactly how I want it to perform
in the process of study I often make a mess of things, opening lots of windows. But I like being able to start fresh with a new clean workspace each time
[Y]
Plus, there's the benefit of it opening much more quickly, as it only has to open the initial workspace, not every other window you left open.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Scott Spinola said:
I can't imagine a scenario where starting in then exact same place is worthwhile and don't really need to. To each his own. If that's something people want to do (as you said you do), a simple preference called "Auto-Save Layouts" would do the job. But it ought to default to be on, since I think that makes the most intuitive sense to people.
My very first use case for layouts was to design a layout for Greek Bible study and another for regular Bible study. Thus, each of these customized layouts was a starting point for a new session. It would be very distressing for these "starting" points to be auto-saved!
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Furthermore, I go down a lot of rabbit trails. So I like explicit control of my current layout. I can wander off wherever I want. If I like where I am, then I can save the layout. On the other hand, if it is a dead end, or something off the main track of study, then I can easily revert.
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Scott Spinola said:
1. Layouts are difficult to use and unintuitive.
- Layouts don’t open where you left off last: If I have my Bible in the layout, logic would suggest that if I stopped reading yesterday at the end of Mark 3, opening the layout tomorrow should open right where I stopped reading but it doesn't. It returns to whatever state it was in the last time I took a snapshot last week or last month. The places in the resources, the arrangement of panes, and which tabs are active should appear where I left off. The only way to do that is to drill down into the “Layouts” menu (which means nothing to a newbie), hopefully click exactly on the tiny little hidden arrow that you can’t even see until you point to it, and select “update to current snapshot” (again, to a newbie, that means nothing). I had to find out all of this in the forums after tearing my hair out in frustration at why it wouldn’t just open where I left off, which one would expect it to do.
Quick Start Layouts in Logos 7 and Verbum 7 opens to Bible's last location. Default Devotional Quick Start Layout opens to Today's date in your highest prioritized Devotional plus changes Bible to first verse in Today's Devotional.
Logos 7 and Verbum 7 show Active Layout name in Title along with check mark in Layouts menu. Also has "Update active" with keyboard shortcut:
Logos User Voice suggestion => make 'save location in resources' optional in saved layouts. has 3 votes.
Scott Spinola said:The software adds resources to layouts on its own: After finally, carefully putting together a layout with all the resources and tools I want at hand to do my Bible study, it’s frustrating when I click on something in the home page and it opens in a seemingly random tab in my carefully constructed layout. Open them in a new window.
Concur opening something appears somewhere. Personally puzzled by panel selection for new tab. Dreaming of way to influence panel selection for tab creation. Windows allows right click option for dragging to desired location while OS X needs to create tab in a panel mysteriously chosen followed by dragging to desired location.
Logos User Voice suggestion => Assign panels a resource type for opening resources has 45 votes.
Scott Spinola said:You can’t open more than one layout at a time: I don’t know what kind of thing is happening on the back end, but why not just open each layout in its own window so we can flip back and forth between them?
Observation: a saved (named) layout can have more than one window.
Logos User Voice suggestion => Floating window layouts has 90 votes.
Scott Spinola said:There's no direct way to create a new layout: There should be an obvious way (a “New Layout” button or menu option) to create a new layout. Since there doesn’t seem to be that clear way, I end up closing all the resources in my meticulously created layout — fearing that my layout will be lost in the process — then open new resources, and click Save As Named Layout. Again, it took a trip to the forums to even figure out what all that meant. None of it is intuitive or easy to figure out.
Personally dragged command "Close All" to create a shortcut:
When want to close all resources, can click shortcut, which is much faster than closing every tab individually.
Scott Spinola said:2. Searching is overly complicated and incomplete.
Scott Spinola said:Basic searches require obscure codes: To find, for example, all the passages in my resources that I have highlighted with a specific style (say, “Saint Quotes”), I have to open a search tab and type {Highlight palette name/style name} — I had to go look that up again just now because it’s not intuitive or easy to remember. I should be able to right-click on style and click, “Find All” or be able to create a new document from a style like I can with a palette.
+1 [Y] Concur right click on a highlighted word should have search options for that style. After using search code, an option is saving search in Favorites for future use.
Current implementation of highlighting in Notes documents leaves a bit to be desired. When highlighting was converted to being stored in Note documents, a development design decision was the title should be a fragment of highlighted words.
Logos User Voice suggestion => Amend / Fix the highlighting functionality which causes only fragments of highlighted text to be stored in the Annotations (or Notes) file. has 40 votes while => Highlighting view has 13 votes.
Due to document design decision, personally have avoided highlighting. Instead have used visual filter highlighting (saved searches) extensively.
Scott Spinola said:3. Creating a reading list of any appreciable size is a hassle.
Scott Spinola said:Auto-generation of reading plans is too limited: I appreciate that there’s an auto-generate option for creating a reading plan, but it’s limited in what it creates, with dates being the only focus. It should provide options like, “1 chapter per day” or “two chapters per day” and not be restricted to a specific time frame.
Reading Plan generation has chapter and pericope options while finishing has "date" expectation.
Finish date is a bit challenging to choose when not know how many chapters so adding an option of # Chapters per day would be appreciated (allow Finish date to be calculated).
Thankful for Faithlife adding => New Bible Reading Plans for 2017 plus asking for more => Predefined Bible Reading Plans
Scott Spinola said:In the desktop app, the scroll bars are a mess. All the dashed lines for highlights make them impossible to use as a regular scroll bar, and I can’t see how they’re useful for what they’re intended for. A highlights menu or slide out drawer that lists all the highlights in a resource would be much better.
Help includes information about Program Settings (dashed lines can be turned off):
Scott Spinola said:Let me just upload a PDF into my personal books. Sometimes I don’t care about all the crazy functionality, I just want to be able to read the PDF and highlight it. Having to export a PDF to Word then import it is a hit-or-miss affair and way more trouble than it’s worth. I don’t even use this feature anymore.
Portability of PDF works well for printing. Document format allows text and/or images to be in file. Images of text can humanly be read (and highlighted on printed paper), but needs conversion to digital text for use in Logos, which includes highlighting and searching. Image conversion provides opportunities for many discussions. Thread => PBB - Converting pdf and epub to docx has longer discussion.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Scott Spinola said:
Also, the way it's designed now, to create a new layout, you first have to have everything in place before "save as named layout" even makes sense. How do you start to do that if you have a layout open? You need to remove things from your current layout and add new ones. If I create a new thing in any other software I don't start by taking apart another thing. That's not very intuitive. A "Create New Layout" option would be far better. It would close the current layout (and save it if that's the preference setting) and open a blank one.
I'm having a bit of a problem understanding your concern here ... when I wish to create a new layout I either (a) start from a blank workspace having used the command "close all" to create the blank workspace OR (b) I am deliberately building a new layout based upon another layout in which case I close and open tabs as you suggest OR (c) I had no intention of creating a new layout but in following a rabbit trail I hit upon a layout I wish to preserve to continue the rabbit trail. In all three cases, I tend to use "save as named layout" either when the layout is complete, as you suggest, or if I get interrupted to save the intermediate layout. In the later case, I then use "update active" to preserve the final layout. Whenever I wish to preserve position within the workspace, I again use "update active".
I think part of the difference in approach is I don't see "create new layout" as my goal - I see layouts as "save a useful layout". As a result many of my layouts are targeted towards very narrow tasks. I also like clean layouts with few resources open - depending upon parallel resources and links to access my resources.
One of the problems Faithlife faces is that what is an "intuitive" interface depends upon the software interfaces the user commonly uses. I had to resort to manuals and internet search more frequently for Microsoft Word than for Logos because I am very poor at guessing which of the heading categories MS thought something belonged under. Logos has only a couple of features hidden where I'd never expect them - expand/collapse all sections of a Guide being an example. Another problem Faithlife faces is that its users have been taught quite different workflows to create the same end product. This means that there is no "industry standard" workflow for them to design to. So they have designed a system that is far more language oriented rather than reception history oriented, far more single text oriented rather than a bundle of related texts oriented, far more individual reader oriented rather than corporate worship oriented ... which means that Logos is in many ways a total mismatch to my needs. But it is the best I have available and I can bend it to come reasonably close to what I really need.
I have tried putting Verbum into the congregation without a great deal of difficulty. I wrote short start-up instructions which included building a single layout and basing the group on a very small library. The three problems that I found that needed to be addressed by Logos:
- the ability to share layouts (and guide templates) rather than make newbies follow detailed instructions for a task they will not be using again in the group
- the ability to define a library (including datasets) as "my total library" so that those with many resources can demonstrate tasks for the new users - getting results similar to what they get
- a better integration of the Faithlife group tools into the Logos environment so the average user can do everything they need to participate in a class and ask questions in a single piece of software
There is no simple right answer - what we need to do is insure that Logos hears a variety of voices with a variety of needs and opinions. You have done a good job of that.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
users have been taught quite different workflows to create the same end product. This means that there is no "industry standard" workflow for them to design to.
I imagine you're correct on this. This is natural in any software system, but I maintain it's due more to the fact that the interface is obtuse. Nothing really says exactly what the reader ultimately wants to do, only something to do before you do what you want. The result is that you need prior knowledge of all the steps involve, which is a bad thing to expect of users. "Close all" isn't the same thing as "Create New" it means close all. Then what do I do? Especially if — like me when I first started using — you have no idea if you're current layout will be saved. I can't tell you how man layouts I lost because of this.
Applications commands should match the users' ultimate intent, not what you might want to do after you use the command. Make it say "Create New Layout." It's a simple, direct command to create a new blank layout to start adding resources to.
And I don't see why a simple user preference to allow users to auto-save layouts would affect anybody who doesn't want to do that. Set to yes, it auto-saves. Set to no it doesn't. I don't understand the problem with having options for how people use the software.
MJ. Smith said:I don't see "create new layout" as my goal - I see layouts as "save a useful layout"
I don't understand how these are different. If you want to create a layout that's not the current layout then you're creating a new one by definition. If you're saving a revision of the current layout then give us a "Save Current Layout" command. Coupled with a preference to auto-save (which I would have turned on) I wouldn't even need to save the current one. With you having it turned off you would have to select "Save Current Layout". That would provide very clear indications of user intent. Commands like are clear and obvious. None of the existing ones are.
And I wouldn't use Microsoft as an example of user interfaces, Theirs have been historically awful.
I probably won't be spending any more money on this software anyway since the last thing I want be is aggravated with the software while I'm doing Bible study. If Logos doesn't want to implement my suggestions that's their choice.
I've said all I want to say and don't see much point in continuing my part of the discussion. I hope you guys get the software you want.
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Scott Spinola said:
I don't understand the problem with having options for how people use the software.
There is no problem except that each option increases the complexity of the software and interface.
Scott Spinola said:Applications commands should match the users' ultimate intent
What I tried to say was that the ultimate intent is not the same among the various users. Logos is simply a tool that provides us with data that we will use in different ways and therefore wish to see in different ways.
Scott Spinola said:I probably won't be spending any more money on this software anyway since the last thing I want be is aggravated with the software while I'm doing Bible study. If Logos doesn't want to implement my suggestions that's their choice.
I am genuinely sorry that you feel this way. Few people never get the "hang of" using Logos. Yes, it is very frustrating when you expect it to work one way but it works another ... and it takes a while to get your expectations to match what it actually does. And, yes, I have a few pet peeves where I think the design of Logos is downright wrong.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Scott Spinola said:
And I wouldn't use Microsoft as an example of user interfaces, Theirs have been historically awful.
Logos and Verbum has its own user interface style, which is a bit different than Windows and OS X (along with some annoyances).
Thankful Logos 7 and Verbum 7 user interface is similar to Logos 4
Scott Spinola said:... since the last thing I want be is aggravated with the software while I'm doing Bible study.
Concur since do not like frustration. While dreaming of option so can choose when to use search assistance, have found a set of parenthesis () does not have search assist pop-up. Composing a list of words for INTERSECTS has quicker entry inside a set of () compared to typing ( followed by trying to type a comma separated list with many search assistance pop-ups and spinning cursor delays.
Thankful for Faithlife creating free Bible Study Training => https://www.logos.com/bible-study-training that includes example software usage within a study framework of Observation, Interpretation, and Application.
Intriguing improvement could be sermon preparation training (on a variety of topics) to illustrate various work flow steps, which could include Proclaim (for practice and service use).
Personally not know of any other Bible software that can highlight range of Greek morphological usage. Logos wiki has => Examples of visual filters
Thankful for Faithlife enabling free sharing of documents (would like layouts added to sharable list).
Scott Spinola said:I've said all I want to say and don't see much point in continuing my part of the discussion.
Thankful for your valuable contributions. If you think of more improvement ideas or encounter points of frustration, please share.
Personally learned to click and wait for Logos 4 Alpha releases, which has some similar tendencies back in Logos 7 and Verbum 7. From a blank layout, opening one Bible with visual filters enabled has no visual clue of visual filter search progress, but click on "+" for a New Tab waits for visual filters to complete before showing list of Bibles with verse reference.
Everything Search recently changed to show 1-100 results in Library section, which is a bit distracting (would rather just see the first 100 results without 1-100 status message, prefer total number of results found).
Also dreaming of option to allow result set to have more than 10,000 (recent search of Greek Illiad for nominative case had more than 10,000 results)
Thankful for many friendly forum discussions: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I took the survey too.
Better searching ability that didn't take a Ph.D. to figure out. (But no surprise there!) [;)]
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Cynthia in Florida said:
Better searching ability that didn't take a Ph.D. to figure out. (But no surprise there!)
I can confirm that even with a PhD in Software Engineering, I struggle with searching in Logos. Although I can understand the syntax, I cannot remember it.
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Armin said:Cynthia in Florida said:
Better searching ability that didn't take a Ph.D. to figure out. (But no surprise there!)
I can confirm that even with a PhD in Software Engineering, I struggle with searching in Logos. Although I can understand the syntax, I cannot remember it.
It's difficult to understand (the reason for) it, so you're doing better than many of us.
I imagine that more and more got crammed into a design that wasn't meant to support as much as it does today. I suspect if the developers redid it completely, we'd have something far easier to use that we wouldn't have to struggle to understand or remember.
I wish that FL would see an improved search UI as a marketing benefit (instead of focusing exclusively on new features), but they probably would lose out on search training video revenue.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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PetahChristian said:
I wish that FL would see an improved search UI as a marketing benefit (instead of focusing exclusively on new features)
I consider both the Bible broswer and the Morphy query document as improved search UI. Am I missing something?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I consider both the Bible broswer and the Morphy query document as improved search UI. Am I missing something?
When I think "search," those tools don't come to mind, probably because I'm not a power user.
I've never used Morph Query at all. The right-click menu lets me search for a lemma (and I've never had to do anything more complex than that), but I'd have no idea how to construct such a search string on my own, if it wasn't for the program doing it for me.
I've probably opened the Bible Browser twice, and once was this evening after you mentioned it. It's interesting, but I can't see the search it's performing behind the scenes, so I don't know if it's doing what I think it's actually doing or not. For example, I assume it's using "AND" rather than "NEAR."
Don't get me wrong. I like being able to "filter" things and I think that's preferable for those types of searches. But when I think of performing a search, I've mostly been doing it through the context menu, and occasionally by the search box/bar. In that context, an "improved search UI" would have to do with the search box/bar (syntax and/or UI), rather than an alternate tool for searching.
If the Bible Browser is everyone's new/improved search they've been asking for, then I'd suggest it suffers from "out of sight, out of mind" by being hidden on the tools menu. I don't think of using it, or learning how to use it.
In terms of the menus, I open Documents about 90% of the time, Guides about 10% of the time, and rarely open Tools. I'd be hard-pressed to name 1/2 the tools on that menu, and probably only open it for Settings now (because Factbook, Highlighting, and Courses tools are already open for me).
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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At the moment the Bible browser gives you access to:
1. Either a pericope or a verse search unit (Bible search gives you only verse; basic search gives only chapter)
2. Predefined Bible text spans (less flexible than Bible search)
3. Factbook searches: Person/People; Place, Thing, Event, Topic, Sense (limited), Literary typing,
4. Labeled data searches: Reported Speech
5. Search extensions: Speech acts, Figurative language, Miracles, Parables, Intertext, Discourse, Propositional Outlines, Grammatical Constructions, Syntactic Force
Yes, the UI currently does not support logical operators or proximity operators but it does provide a basic search requiring no search syntax knowledge for a broad swath of searches - including the powerful searches based on specialized datasets. One uses it's faceted selection much as a common user builds a Google search.
No, I'm not saying it is the final answer to improving the search UI ... but it is a major step forward and strong evidence that Faithlife is aware of and working on solutions to the problem. I also consider the running of preset searches through the Context Menu to be part of the solution to the search UI - you merely need to click on the item to run the Search ... you don't need to know how to build the search. I often use it to save time in entering the search argument even when I do know how to build the search especially when "SECTION" may or may not be appropriate (I haven't adjusted to all the changes this entailed).
Your sequence of learning features does not match mine which dived in initially on Guides then added in the tools that provided what the Guides did not ... documents was (and still is) the poor step-child - but I know I am not a typical user. I agree that directing people to the correct resource or tool is a major problem. How many threads do we have on the forums asking for NT use of the OT for which the answer is "Open the interactive and slect on facets ..."? And trust me, I've given a great deal of thought into how one might built a decision tool to guide one to the correct tool or resource.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I wish: "No new features for a year, only speed, speed, speed".
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(my emphasis)PetahChristian said:Armin said:Cynthia in Florida said:Better searching ability that didn't take a Ph.D. to figure out. (But no surprise there!)
I can confirm that even with a PhD in Software Engineering, I struggle with searching in Logos. Although I can understand the syntax, I cannot remember it.
It's difficult to understand (the reason for) it, so you're doing better than many of us.
I imagine that more and more got crammed into a design that wasn't meant to support as much as it does today. I suspect if the developers redid it completely, we'd have something far easier to use that we wouldn't have to struggle to understand or remember.
I wish that FL would see an improved search UI as a marketing benefit (instead of focusing exclusively on new features), but they probably would lose out on search training video revenue.
I wouldn't doubt the issue of loss of training revenue, though to an early agreement to contract it out.
And I'd suspect rationalizing said training and no-manual-policy, along with ask-the-forum as the primary UI, drives the intended difficulty in their designs.
Trotting out two new tools and calling it an improved UI design (no offense to MJ) looks a whole lot like Libby in her final days. 7 years later, I think there's 4 searches in Libby, all small varients of each other and all poorly designed (even at the time). I can never remember what each does that required a new varient.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Survey done.
Many have responded. You should have good feedback. For me, I do not need more bells and whistles. I would like improvement of what already exists...drop down menus to improve interface, easier way to organize library....
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Armin said:
I can confirm that even with a PhD in Software Engineering, I struggle with searching in Logos. Although I can understand the syntax, I cannot remember it.
My contention is that I, effectively, do not want to have to learn another language. And the taskmaster is harsh!! As in, I might have the right squiggle but not the correct # of spaces before or after it. With this schmozzle, I'm under the hood. I do not want to be under the hood, but I want to be still understood.
I do not want to have to remember it, nor populate a cheat-sheet in honour of its recalcitrance.
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scooter said:
I do not want to have to remember it, nor populate a cheat-sheet in honour of its recalcitrance.
scooter said:My contention is that I, effectively, do not want to have to learn another language.
I agree 100%. This MUST be improved. Or you lose the interest of a lot of people in the program. I wonder if anyone would disagree.
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Everything Search recently changed to show 1-100 results in Library section, which is a bit distracting (would rather just see the first 100 results without 1-100 status message, prefer total number of results found).
It sounds like you may have enabled the (experimental) new search engine. Please read the release notes and known issues for it here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/133612.aspx
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Mark said:
I wonder if anyone would disagree.
I think you have to separate casual use (easy, menu-driven, visual) from serious use. The latter wants no confusion, and so, by necessity, must be a precise language ... just like coding. And its power is in its complexity ... simple preciseness usually isn't the goal.
The former (support for casual use) is the missing piece. Oddly, that's the part that impresses humans ... not precise gobbledigook. Somehow, Logos doesn't sell that (without a subscription, of course).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
(support for casual use) is the missing piece. Oddly, that's the part that impresses humans ... not precise gobbledigook. Somehow, Logos doesn't sell that
Lesser priced competitors sell (or give away) that. I think that is the cheapest fastest thing FL could do to get more customers and make gobs of customers happier. Given the apparent drive for FL to appeal to lots of new, small buyers, wouldn't the option of a squeaky clean, zoomin' fast interface, not bogged down by the internet, make sense? Does to me. That goes for mobile apps as well. I know the younger generation well enough to know that if you hook them on the mobile app, you got 'em, hook, line and sinker.
My kids all have Logos, a nice base package, but seldom use it. Why? They keep saying, "Hey, Dad, when you get back, maybe you can teach me how to use this!" I know the cure.
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Victor Ulloa said:
I wish: "No new features for a year, only speed, speed, speed".
Amen - I'd love to see Logos run nearly as fast as that other Bible program for the Mac...
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I'm another one hoping for performance improvements above anything else. To be able to simply read a single open resource and scroll the text without any pauses or stuttering would be a real improvement.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
We'd like to understand how you use Logos (the desktop version) and how you'd like to see us improve it to meet your Bible study needs better.
Thank you for the survey which I've completed with my feedback.
I use Logos for personal Bible study using the methodology I learned from LearnLogos.com. I agree with the need for program speed and search capability improvements; however, my #1 request would be for Faithlife to create user controlled options which would allow users to customize the appearance of the workspace according to their own visual needs in the following specific areas: Resource Panel Toolbar, Bible book cover icons, and Link Set.
The following paragraphs provide further explanation and are based on UserVoice suggestions I’ve previously submitted:
Resource Panel Toolbar
problem: With each new feature button that is added to the Resource Panel Toolbar, the likelihood increases (depending on a person’s individual eye sensitivities) of one or more of these buttons visually distracting a user from focusing on the resource text below it. This has been the case for me with L-7’s Multiview Resources button which was so distracting to my eyes that I had to return my purchase of the L-7 Full Feature Set and cancel plans to purchase a Logos Now subscription as well as an L-7 base package. The feature itself would have been nice to have but my eyes could not tolerate its toolbar button which visually dominated the panel area and prevented me from comfortably focusing on resource text.
I am aware of the Reading View mode. I often use it when my only intention is to read a long article or passage, but for any other purpose a normal multi-tiled workspace is necessary. Therefore, the Reading View mode does not adequately address this issue.
solution: Provide a user controlled option to hide either the Resource Panel Toolbar or the entire row of Resource Panel elements located beneath the Panel Tab and above the locator bar (Book Cover Icon, Reference Box, Resource Panel Toolbar, Back/Forward Arrows, History Drop-down, and Info Button) while working in a normal multi-tiled workspace (non-Reading View mode). This could be accomplished through a single mouse click on the Panel Tab of any opened resource. A corresponding keyboard shortcut could also be added.
Hiding the Resource Panel Toolbar would be very helpful, but hiding the entire row of Resource Panel elements would be even more helpful because in addition to hiding the visual distraction, it would noticeably increase the panel reading space within a normal multi-tiled layout while keeping the functionality of all Resource Panel elements only one click away.
Bible Book Cover Icons
problem: Several Bible book cover icons that were changed for Logos 6 (especially the ESV and LEB) are so bright and annoying they prevent me from comfortably focusing on Bible text.
solution: Provide users with a program setting to hide or "turn off" all book cover icons (Bibles and non-Bible resources) when a resource is opened. (The Panel Tab already identifies the resource.)
alternate solutions:
- Allow users to add their own Bible book cover icons and to share the icons they add with other users.
- Allow users to individually switch to a generic grey Bible book cover icon if they prefer (such as currently used for several clause visualization resources).
- Allow users to hide the image of a Bible book cover icon and instead select “show label” which would reflect the Bible translation’s standard initials (ESV, LEB) as is currently available for shortcut buttons within the shortcut toolbar.
Link Set
problem: The extreme bright orange color currently used for the Link Set indicator box is very distracting.
solution: Allow users to customize the color of the Link Set indicator box as well as the font color of the letter inside.
alternate solutions:
- Replace the Link Set indicator box with a visual indicator within the Link Set section of the Resource Panel Menu.
- Change the Link Set indicator box's default appearance to a more neutral, less distracting color (such as grey).
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MJ. Smith said:
I'd like to see a somewhat different survey - one on what we need to move Logos into the general congregation.
Yes I agree with you totally MJ.
Even when I reflect on how I use Logos outside of my study.
1) On my I phone I prefer to use e-sword to read the Bible, because it is quick, simple and easy to navigate to different bible books, chapters and change translations.2) If there was a low-cost start up library in the price range of $20-50 this may be all it takes to get people in my congregation to invest into the logos ecosystem.
The other main improvement that would improve how I personally use logos would be speed.
3) Speed, I have a mid sized library (13,361) and it can be slow loading reports and searches at times.
4) On the amazon kindle web interface there is an option to bring up a hyperlinked list of popular highlights
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Kelvin Niblett said:
2) If there was a low-cost start up library in the price range of $20-50 this may be all it takes to get people in my congregation to invest into the logos ecosystem.
They did this in the past with Libronix may years ago.. I bought half a dozen copies and couldn't give them away at church,
There was also the Thomas Nelson Ultimate Bible Reference Library that went for around $20 and included 60 unlocked resources.
https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Bible-Reference-Library-CD-ROM/dp/0785249958
So this has been done before. Reality is average person in the pew does not get as excited about bible software as us die hard users.
And FL is really missing the point with their current offering...https://www.logos.com/product/55923/lexham-intro-collection , the average person in the pew is going to look at that and say I don't need a Greek New Testament and they have all but admitted that by including everything in this collection except the GNT as part of Logos 7 Basic.
The trouble with Logos 7 Basic is the average person in the pew is going to say I'm not familar with LEB or Faithlife Study Bible. They will want a basic collection that includes either ESV and ESV Study Bible or NIV and NIV Study Bible, as examples, because that is what they know and use, if you are going to have any real chance of getting them interested in bible software. Offer them something they dont' know or seems languages orientated and they are not going to be put off.
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First, I'm not sure about pushing Logos on a congregation per se. I can understand Faithlife doing that. But a Cadallac product line? I'd assume if the product is amenable to group-learning and a tradition, then, most definitely. But Logos literally avoids both. The new Basic will be interesting.
Pew sitters are pew sitters in church. Outside of church, it's a different equation. I notice fellow Christians that I'd never guess, locked into their Bible software. And pastors (most I can see) that can't be bothered (in this area). Even the Bible colleges and seminaries are still locked into the 1500's approach of pouring the weekly Word, similar to a factory.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Having the search prompt you similarly to the way the Visual Filter tool works might help a great deal on removing the search syntax memorization burden.0
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Yes I can understand FL marketing want to sign up whole churches to an a high priced subscription for videos... might be dangerous for the pastors of those said churches..those pew sitters, that at least you and I have noticed Denise, might just decide they enjoyed the mobile Ed. teaching from the comfort of the easy chair in their own home and decide not to go to church on a Sunday morning and they can do it without still needing to open their bibles.
Denise said:First, I'm not sure about pushing Logos on a congregation per se. I can understand Faithlife doing that. But a Cadallac product line? I'd assume if the product is amenable to group-learning and a tradition, then, most definitely. But Logos literally avoids both. The new Basic will be interesting.
Pew sitters are pew sitters in church. Outside of church, it's a different equation. I notice fellow Christians that I'd never guess, locked into their Bible software. And pastors (most I can see) that can't be bothered (in this area). Even the Bible colleges and seminaries are still locked into the 1500's approach of pouring the weekly Word, similar to a factory.
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For some of us, Sunday morning is primarily about corporate worship rather than religious education.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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And so it should be.
MJ. Smith said:For some of us, Sunday morning is primarily about corporate worship rather than religious education.
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MJ. Smith said:
For some of us, Sunday morning is primarily about corporate worship rather than religious education.
[y][y]
I think there is room for both, but certainly corporate worship takes precedence. And if there is not room, it wins.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Thanks so much for this tip. I will really use this.
Susan Murphy
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
how you'd like to see us improve it to meet your Bible study needs better.
By far my biggest gripe with Logos is notes. It's fine for annotations but note taking is so terrible that I generally transfer them to another app. The problem is first of all that they are clunky and just the process of scrolling through the notes distracts me from the text. I feel like I'm fighting with it. The software that I use for notes (Scrivener) on the other hand is just a joy to use.
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MJ. Smith said:
For some of us, Sunday morning is primarily about corporate worship rather than religious education.
Didn't see your note earlier. Personally, I view 'pewsitters' as derogatory, as if there's a pecking order largely measured by dealing with some writings as if an idol (the theory of the OT creation after loss of the Temple/land). That said, best I can see in the the NT, there's quite a bit of latitude surrounding corporating meetings.
To avoid being sent to the ChristianDiscourse bad-girl corner, my Logos point would be a general absence in Logos of behavioral improvement (vs textual worship). I suspect something regarding behavioral improvement integrated into Logos would be VERY interesting. Sort of the next step, after litergical.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I'm in favour of the kind of features and books Denise is suggesting! I was just thinking today and yesterday I wanna include such things in the book I'm authoring and for which I'm searching for a co-author! :-)
But I aim for a release date far away in the future, at A-company forums You can see from my profile what Year that would be.
From my Monday Facebook post You can see how far I would maximally go in dating which is too little according to people. The post is in Swedish but I believe Facebook translates when You click. Also: Should go up North this Summer - there are relatives from the US there and I would like to go to the beach me and the girls: a new girlfriend if I have by then, and those relatives not much younger. The beaches are really nice, only time for that is when it's the warmest period of the Year:Denise said:To avoid being sent to the ChristianDiscourse bad-girl corner, my Logos point would be a general absence in Logos of behavioral improvement (vs textual worship). I suspect something regarding behavioral improvement integrated into Logos would be VERY interesting. Sort of the next step, after litergical.
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Denise said:
Personally, I view 'pewsitters' as derogatory
Interesting - Although I'm more apt to say "pew warmer", I consider it less denominational than "assembly" or "parishioners". I would agree that the NT references a variety of corporate meetings as one would expect in any comprehensive view. For example, in thinking of the Anglican BCP one thinks of 3 separate services.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rosie Perera said:
Make it faster in all sorts of ways. UI responsiveness mostly. Dropdowns, etc.
Search drop down has an annoyance when changing text fields for searching since search runs after one field is unchecked, which is before the next field is checked. Hence have a work flow disruption while waiting for a non useful search to complete.
Another drop down annoyance is automatic assistance for completing a search; dreaming of option so can choose when want assistance OR not. Annoyance is automatic delay while trying to type in desired search.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I'll repeat 2 suggestions I have made before.
1. completely rework accuracy of lemma searches in lexicons, including noting when there is debate about lemma meaning.
2. include "FONT" subsection when right clicking ANY word on screen. Clicking on the FONT subsection shows what default font Logos recommends, and ability to choose other suitable fonts.
Stephen Miller
Australia
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I would say:
1. Make the app look and feel like a native Mac app. Having native controls is what I miss most about that other Bible software. I know it would be an immense undertaking, but I'd love to see a truly native Mac app.
2. Improve performance.
3. Improve notes. They still seem quite clunky. I would also love to be able to change the font on all my notes globally instead of one by one.
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I personally think that Logos development is rooted in greed. They turned good software into a website, just to make sure it's unavailable to those who do not want to bend over for a pricey fee. I absolutely hate your software and have uninstalled it within an hour. You can't improve that, unless you scrap the whole thing and make it an application instead of a cheesy website again, otherwise bye bye.
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Yuriy said:
make it an application instead of a cheesy website again,
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Logos is available as a desktop application, a mobile application, and on the web. The software itself is free as are a few resources to use with it. If you uninstalled within an hour, I can safely say you did not have enough time to explore the software and make an educated decision. That being said, I would not argue that Logos is for everyone.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Yuriy said:
I personally think that Logos development is rooted in greed. They turned good software into a website, just to make sure it's unavailable to those who do not want to bend over for a pricey fee. I absolutely hate your software and have uninstalled it within an hour. You can't improve that, unless you scrap the whole thing and make it an application instead of a cheesy website again, otherwise bye bye.
I am mystified by your post. You also made a similar post here https://community.logos.com/forums/t/46154.aspx?PageIndex=6
What is interesting to me is the following:
1) you only made 6 forum posts. Logos do have a bit of a steep learning curve, but there are many users on the forums willing to help anyone struggling to get to grips. Uninstalling the software within 1 hour implies that you barely evaluated the software.
2) Perhaps you confuse the Home page with a webpage. It does list articles from websites, but it is not a web app (which you imply by stating that you uninstalled it within the hour. It is possible to run Logos over a webpage (https://app.logos.com), which is a brilliant addition to the current Software you can install on your desktop. The web app does give you the flexibility to also access your library when you do not have your pc with you, but you do have access to the internet and a browser.
3) Not sure how you consider it greed as the software is free and there are loads of free books available. You can build a decent and usable library without spending any money. Of course there are extremely expensive options available, but I think most Logos users will argue that they do offer value for money. Logos is a business and they need to make a profit to keep on developing and adding more resources.
4) Referring to your other post (referenced above) where you state that you prefer another Bible Software. Lots of Logos users also use other Bible Software for various reasons. I think that we are extremely fortunate as Christians to have different software that supplement and complement each other.
I do have the feeling that perhaps you did not give Logos Software not a fair chance to prove its worth. If there is any way we as fellow users can help you on discovering more of the true power of Logos, please ask and we will try our best to help you through our experience.0 -
Sarel Slabbert said:
I am mystified by your post.
There is nothing mysterious about it. He's a troll. Don't feed the trolls.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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