Complaining about Logos

WARNING!!!

This post contains the opinion of the writer and is not intended to convey the thoughts, beliefs or opinions of anyone employed by Faithlife. I am not an employee of Faithlife.

With the disclaimer out of the way...

Before I comment on the complaints I want to say thank you to Faithlife and the folks who produce Logos.

THANK YOU AND GOD BLESS!

I read a string of complaints recently regarding the pricing of Logos books and the updates that come out every so often for which Logos users are charged. To be straightforward about it I was really bothered by this. Folks, do all of us work for free? Do we expect others to work for free? Thank you Logos for the recent version 7 data update!!!!!!!!!!

The issue I see is the complaining itself. (If you use Logos and are not a Christian please disregard as I am addressing the household of faith) If you take the word of God seriousely please consider the passage below:

Phil 2:14-15
¹⁴Do all things without grumbling or disputing, ¹⁵that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world.

This would include the purchase and use of Logos as well as our interaction with Faithlife. These are people and we must not think that we can grumble and complain against them and have the Lord Jesus be OK with it. As I said they are not volunteers, they are a company and they do produce a product that helps us all do what we do.

I for one use Logos every day and could not do my ministry as well as I do without it. I work a full time job so that I can pastor and Logos enables me to do this. I thank God for the software and all of those who have worked so hard to make it what it is. I am currently in a payment plan with them for a recent purchase so I am doing business with them and will as God enables continue to do so.

I would also add a comment about our witness to the employees of Faithlife. Brothers (and sisters!) we claim the name of Christ. What do we think our complaining and grumbling looks like to those who work at this company? Do we think that Christ is glorified with our complaining? Do we thing that God is pleased?

There are less expensive programs available for your Bible study but in my opinion they are not as good.

If all I had to go by was the string of complaints I read I would wonder if there were any Christians using the software at all.

Pastor Alan Harris

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Comments

scooter

Lets say I have an issue, Alan. Would you say I am complaining if I bring it up? How, then, in your opinion do I bring it up?

If I list ''just the facts,'' am I complaining? If I mention how unhappy I am, am I complaining? If I see it as a long standing issue + hit it a little harder, then what?

Sean

EDIT: Never mind, I'll withhold the snark.

If all I had to go by was the string of complaints I read I would wonder if there were any Christians using the software at all.

Reporting this post for abuse. FL, do you really want to let your customer base be abused like this?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883497#Comment_883497

I think scooter has a good point. How should anyone cry foul? Alan also has a good Jesus question visa viz some Christian traditions' expectations. And Sean abuse-ing the Christian guy for abusing the Christians ... that certainly can be found in the Paulines.

It must be Monday morning, and way too much rain on the American west coast (neutral subject).

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883494#Comment_883494

Lets say I have an issue, Alan. Would you say I am complaining if I bring it up? How, then, in your opinion do I bring it up?

If I list ''just the facts,'' am I complaining? If I mention how unhappy I am, am I complaining? If I see it as a long standing issue + hit it a little harder, then what?

Not answering for Alan, but if you have an issue, please bring it up! It's how you bring it up that's the difference for me personally.

Why just complain, when you can make a suggestion? Why settle for just saying what's wrong with something, when you can be a part of getting it fixed? Often it's as simple as stating "the facts" (in a fair way, of course) and then asking a sincere question "Is this how it's supposed to work?" (or something like that).

I've seen both, and often for the same or very similar issues. The "suggestion" strategy, as far as I've seen here, is simply more effective, in addition to being a more pleasant approach for everyone.

Just my 2 cents.

Alan Harris

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883497#Comment_883497

Brother,

Thank you for withholding the snark. This is as it should be.

How is it abusive to muse about the possible thoughts of someone reading some of (NOT ALL!)
the complaints that frankly were out of line? I say SOME because there were some that were
expressed well and were not the subject of the post. Take me to the Scriptures and offer the correction that I
seem to need from the word of God brother.

Quote: "Reporting this post for abuse. FL, do you really want to let your customer base be abused like this?"

It's OK to be abusive to the FaithLife staff but certainly not to the customer!

Alan Harris

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883508#Comment_883508

Well said! With kindness as well.

Yes, issues should be raised is they are legitimate issues but are we going to say that simply having an issue gives us license speak on a forum any way we so choose?

(Spelling edit)

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883508#Comment_883508

These are all legitimate questions. Similar questions arise in the church, in our marriages, and in life in general. How do we honestly resolve problems without tearing each other down in an unloving way? I have no special wisdom on this. It does seem to me that:

It is legitimate to express our concerns to FaithLife (or to any other company, or a spouse, or a friend, for that matter);
We shouldn't make our concerns out to be greater than they really are;
Viewed dispassionately, our concerns may not really be as great as they may seem in the heat of the moment;
We should not assume bad faith on the part of FaithLife (or unfettered greed, callousness, disregard for customers, etc.);
FaithLife can (and should) benefit as a business from candid, constructive criticism;
Offering as many facts and potential solutions as possible can make our feedback more effective and useful; and
Sometimes no one solution will work well for everyone.

If 34 years of marriage have taught me anything, it's that when it comes to relationships being "right" won't save you if you say it wrong. I think that's generally true whenever we deal with other people on anything but the most trivial matters.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883515#Comment_883515

Complaints I would say are wanted by Faithlife, no not the kind ones where you are just bashing the company for no other reason than being a business, but constructive criticism is very helpful to a company. If FL does something that even a large minority doesn't like I am sure FL would rather hear it voiced and offered a chance to answer things than those customers walking away and going to another company. I do not think words like "this is unchristian" or any other judgmental comments are useful, however as a customer if FL wishes to keep me as a customer I should feel I have a right to voice my concerns without being attack by so called "fan boys" who treat FL as some anointed prophet who must to be questioned (I am not thinking of anyone in particular but I have heard of people who have felt attacked when some MVPs have come to FL's defence, in one case I can think of I would have definitely said the complaining person seemed very out of line and overly sensitive to the response). I do not want to see any one or FL attacked, but complaints can be constructive criticism that can be exceptionally valuable to FL. So I say please complain... but ALWAYS be kind and don't assume the worse about FL or individuals.

-Dan

Simon’s Brother

The issue I see is the complaining itself. (If you use Logos and are not a Christian please disregard as I am addressing the household of faith) If you take the word of God seriousely please consider the passage below:

Rev Harris, for me the biggest issue I see on these forums is customers who judge other christians, they love to point the finger (and in doing so have more pointed back at themselves),and some to justify their actions by adding a single scripture to their put down. But the ones that really pride themselves on their judging of their fellow christians love to name call people names in addition to telling them they are not Christians because they have complained about the business practices of FL. Some even think they have the right to question their fellow customers faith.

Personally while I'd love to see, and I think we all would if we were honest, cheaper prices, I respect FL is a for profit business and its employees do deserve to be paid. So I generally refrain from making complaints about prices being too high but at same time don't point the point and quote ad those that do - their beef is with FL, not me so I take no offense, even if I dont' agree with them.

But I will, much to your dislike raise complaints about issues where I see FL letting me down as a customer, and where I see their business practices, particularly their marketing inappropriate, or I believe their customer service is lacking or they have made poor design choices in the software.

So Rev Hall because of that, without ever having met me you are deciding I am not a Christian simply because I am prepared to be honest with a business that I have entered into a financial transaction (many transactions) when I believe they have let me down as a customer.

As I mentioned earlier whenever you point a finger at someone else you actually have more fingers pointing at yourself. The fact is none of us are perfect, we all sin and fall short of the glory of God each and every day, whether we want to be honest about it or not.

PS Rev Harris:

I work for a business and we encourage people to complain, their complaints are put up on a TV screen in our office where everyone can see the complaints raised - do we as business always feel the complaints are fair - of course not and we do prefer to see their positive comments, but the complaints do help us identify where we might be missing customer expectations, help us see to identify areas where we can improve as a business that we might have otherwise missed because we are too busy in our office playing business. Complaints, although not pleasant and not always fair, are an important part of customer engagement and the two way transaction between a customer and the business. A business who truly want to engage with its customers, a business that is customer focused with welcome and take note of customer complaints and use that information to shape how it does business with its customers in the future. So not only do I believe it inappropriate for you to make a judgment call on other people's faith simply because they raise a complaint on these forums, I think you are showing a lack of understanding of business by your comments as well as setting yourself up as someone who has the right to make a judgement call on the faith of other people that you have never met.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883542#Comment_883542

I sense that we're talking past each other here. I'd offer up a couple of questions in the hopes that they might be useful.

Is there a difference between constructive feedback (a.k.a. a justified customer complaint) and "grumbling or disputing" as used by Paul in Phil 2:14-15?
Should there be a difference in the way Christians provide customer feedback and the way the average non-Christian might react in the same situation?

My personal answer would be "yes" to both.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883542#Comment_883542

doc, that's interesting about your workplace.

My general experience from inside businesses is they tend to be inward focus'd ... customer good-comments (we're great!), and customer bad-comments (nutty customer!) One time I responded to a hotel post-survey, suggesting they needed more parking (construction dept). It got passed to the manager and she tried to nail us with pets (I guess their technique). Anyway, no more post-surveys.

Noting the return of 'prices', I don't accept ' they need profits!!' when competitors can offer better prices and as good functionality (to a customer). And Christian-wise, the high prices mean less-affluent pastors need not apply. If indeed it helps pastors (Faithlife claim), then its absense reduces gospel effectiveness. Else hobby-ist software.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883551#Comment_883551

Noting the return of 'prices', I don't accept ' they need profits!!' when competitors can offer better prices and as good functionality (to a customer).

It's not unusual for companies in the same industry to have very different internal cost structures.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883550#Comment_883550

I sense that we're talking past each other here. I'd offer up a couple of questions in the hopes that they might be useful.

Is there a difference between constructive feedback (a.k.a. a justified customer complaint) and "grumbling or disputing" as used by Paul in Phil 2:14-15?

Should there be a difference in the way Christians provide customer feedback and the way the average non-Christian might react in the same situation?

My personal answer would be "yes" to both.

The answer is yes we should, the reality is we are all fallen creatures who fall short of the glory of God each and every day. My concern is how we respond to one another when we do inevitably fall short and from what I see on these forums it as at times absolutely disgusting the way people talk to one another and must grieve God no less than the inappropriate way someone might have raised the complaint. And I dont' believe questioning peoples faith is any more an appropriate response than is calling people names, or MVP's telling customers they are wasting the precious MVP's time, or quoting a single scripture out of context and scolding a person for raising a complaint simply because you don't see the issue in the same light as them, or telling people they should not complain about any of the shortcomings of Vryso because its just 'hobby' business.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883559#Comment_883559

Now, EastTN ... that's gobbledegook ... even Cadallac is subject to the same managerial demands for efficiency ... but low volume, high margin is their equation. And nothing to do with the cost structure (or premium cost structure) of the gospel businessmen It's the latter, that's the curiousity.

Now, before you get mad at me, I only pose the issue of NJB. (No, not my preferred). Then note the Logos pricing apologetic arguments apply equally to Brill.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883573#Comment_883573

Now, EastTN ... that's gobbledegook ... even Cadallac is subject to the same managerial demands for efficiency ... but low volume, high margin is their equation. And nothing to do with the cost structure (or premium cost structure) of the gospel businessmen It's the latter, that's the curiousity.

Now, before you get mad at me, I only pose the issue of NJB. (No, not my preferred). Then note the Logos pricing apologetic arguments apply equally to Brill.

Mad at you? Never! [:D]

But I don't think it's gobbledygook (well, not completely, at least). You mention a particular business strategy, low volume, high margin. That strategy has implications for a company's balance sheet and income statement - and for they way they manage their finances. A high-volume, low margin business will have a different balance sheet and income statement, and will manage their finances differently. Neiman Markus and T.J.Maxx both sell clothing - but they aren't managed the same way and their margins won't be the same. You get the same sort of differences in the restaurant business. A trendy, high-end restaurant in New York will likely have a different pricing strategy than a Domino's pizza in rural Tennessee. I don't see why we would expect anything different in the Bible software industry. Some companies will be Neiman Markus, some will be Lord and Taylor, some will be J.C.Penney, and some may be T.J.Maxx.

Having said that - no, I don't understand all of the decisions that FaithLife makes. Some completely baffle me. But the universe of things that baffle me is vast, so I just try not to worry about it too much.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883515#Comment_883515

are we going to say that simply having an issue gives us license speak on a forum

Apparently it does for the OP.

Or does complaining about people complaining not qualify as complaining?

Am I the only one who sees the irony in a thread created to complain about people complaining?

I would wonder if there were any Christians using the software at all.

I would be curious to know how a person that judgmental functions as a pastor. Seems like it could be a bit difficult.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883588#Comment_883588

Doc ... your final point would merit a book.

Now, EastTN (just helping the OP get as many views as possible). Believe it (or not), I've worked on the analytics for most of your examples (competitor research). But let's ignore that. Because: Gospel economics is a maximize function. Not an optimize function. Now, some will argue quality (optimize) over quantity (maximize). But if you read your NT (OT was optimizing), you'll note the principle of maximize (quantity). Souls. Sitting around trying for high-quality souls was never the goal. And for good reason. The end was at hand.

This, I believe, is where Logosians get mixed up. Faithlife is an optimizing company. Bucks, not souls. Imagine, if they priced books as their competitors (OT, BigA, etc), and then literally charged for the features at full cost. Pastors could buy inexpensively as needed. And feature-itus people would be faced with the obvious; value?

scooter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883597#Comment_883597

some will argue quality (optimize) over quantity (maximize). But if you read your NT (OT was optimizing), you'll note the principle of maximize (quantity). Souls. Sitting around trying for high-quality souls was never the goal. And for good reason. The end was at hand.

This, I believe, is where Logosians get mixed up. Faithlife is an optimizing company. Bucks, not souls. Imagine, if they priced books as their competitors (OT, BigA, etc), and then literally charged for the features at full cost. Pastors could buy inexpensively as needed. And feature-itus people would be faced with the obvious; value?

Is not FL, then, a maximizing company, maximizing bucks by their robust prices? As they see it. If I read U right, an optimizing FL would have lower prices + more customers.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883605#Comment_883605

scooter, I think we're mixing up normal economics with souls economics.

In the former, you're probably right. But presuming the latter (essentially the book of Acts), Faithlife would maximize relative to the intermediate variable ... pastors' souls maximization. At that point problems occur ... quantity vs quality (two theologies, one 'go ye into the world, vs the righteous remnant pre-selected or not).

This sounds like gobbledegook (apologies to EastTN), but I suspect it's why the forum gets tangled up on pricing. What's the ultimate goal.

scooter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883609#Comment_883609

scooter, I think we're mixing up normal economics with souls economics.

In the former, you're probably right. But presuming the latter (essentially the book of Acts), Faithlife would maximize relative to the intermediate variable ... pastors' souls maximization. At that point problems occur ... quantity vs quality (two theologies, one 'go ye into the world, vs the righteous remnant pre-selected or not).

This sounds like gobbledegook (apologies to EastTN), but I suspect it's why the forum gets tangled up on pricing. What's the ultimate goal.

I understand what you are saying, Denise. Gonna think about your theory + FL.

Paul

If all I had to go by was the string of complaints I read I would wonder if there were any Christians using the software at all.

Pastor Alan Harris

It's a sad reality there will on occasion be complaints or contributions to the forum we do not like. This will be so whether Christians or non-Christians are writing. When people are frustrated, angry or worried and this comes across in what they write, surely these are times when we need to give them some space to express themselves? Some of their 'vibrant' language or expressions may even give life and vigor to the forums. Certainly, an angry person may overstep and begin to abuse, but in my reading of many posts over a long time, that is really a very small minority. In fact, most times over the years, I've seen people treating each other with courtesy and many times seen heroic patience beeing shown in solving problems.

One interesting thing about the forum is the number of times issues raised (even in complaints) have been translated by Faithlife into adjustments or improvements to the software, the supply of new resources, changes in webpages, alterations in marketing direction and so on. Faithlife has demonstrated that it listens to its customers especially those who complain. In other words, there is value in the "complaints" for Faithlife as a business and ourselves as users.

You raise a good point and quote a relevant Scripture as to how Christians should treat each other and people generally. Yet in many churches people are not taught or encouraged to raise issues that concern them ('complaints') about the conduct of services, sermons, the behavior of elders, ministers and so on. To be silent despite discontent is often seen as a virtue, but most often it solves nothing. What an excellent thing it would be if such churches were courageous enough to create a forum where people could openly express themselves (even sometimes badly) and church management take notice. Faithlife is a business, but perhaps it may have something to teach churches today in sensitively addressing their customer/member issues.

In your post you mention that you work at a full time job so you can do your pastoral ministry. You should be applauded for your 'tent making' life, like the apostle Paul. It cannot be easy for you. As an ordinary worker, I have great respect for ministers who take that path. May you and those you minister receive an abundant blessing for what you are doing. Take care Paul

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883597#Comment_883597

Now, EastTN (just helping the OP get as many views as possible). Believe it (or not), I've worked on the analytics for most of your examples (competitor research). But let's ignore that. Because: Gospel economics is a maximize function. Not an optimize function. Now, some will argue quality (optimize) over quantity (maximize). But if you read your NT (OT was optimizing), you'll note the principle of maximize (quantity). Souls. Sitting around trying for high-quality souls was never the goal. And for good reason. The end was at hand.

This, I believe, is where Logosians get mixed up. Faithlife is an optimizing company. Bucks, not souls. Imagine, if they priced books as their competitors (OT, BigA, etc), and then literally charged for the features at full cost. Pastors could buy inexpensively as needed. And feature-itus people would be faced with the obvious; value?

Denise, I think what you're saying is that FaithLife is a business, not a church. Hence "bucks, not souls." Absolutely! And by saying that, I don't mean that they're evil or unethical - just that they're in business to make money. Does Bob want to make money in a way that can help the church, and is consistent with a Christian life? I believe so. But still - it's how he makes a living. So, yeah - at least one primary goal is "bucks." It's a business. And businesses can choose different market strategies.

And that's o.k. If a competitor chooses a strategy that clearly serves the market far better, FaithLife will have to adapt or die.

P.S.

Thanks for the stimulating conversation!

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883609#Comment_883609

I have not read from anyone that there is no place for legitimate complaints.

I have read a reminder to watch for inordinate, disproportionate, and excessively and frequently aggressive complaints.

I have also read in the text, but more importantly in the subtext of this thread, concerns about how fellow customers communicate among themselves on the forum.

I have come to one inescapable conclusion: it is time for all of us to head straight for the nearest mirror, look in our own eyes without flinching, and chant "I am right... I am right... I am right".

Emphasis on "I". "Because," as L'Oréal puts it "I deserve it".

Adam Borries (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883638#Comment_883638

Thank you, Alan, for your comments, and everyone, for a really great discussion. These forums are for Logos users to encourage and educate each other, and I appreciate the overall tone of this debate.

There have been a couple of posts, however, which border on personal insult. People can have strong feelings about Faithlife--good, bad, and sometimes both at the same time--but let's remember to respect each other even when we disagree.

And on behalf of the company: Thank you for your complaints. No, seriously. Honest, constructive criticism from our users is something we highly value at Faithlife. Of course, it's always encouraging for us to hear how the things we make have a positive impact on your work and lives, too. Keep them both coming!

--Adam

JessicaL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883605#Comment_883605

some will argue quality (optimize) over quantity (maximize). But if you read your NT (OT was optimizing), you'll note the principle of maximize (quantity). Souls. Sitting around trying for high-quality souls was never the goal. And for good reason. The end was at hand.

This, I believe, is where Logosians get mixed up. Faithlife is an optimizing company. Bucks, not souls. Imagine, if they priced books as their competitors (OT, BigA, etc), and then literally charged for the features at full cost. Pastors could buy inexpensively as needed. And feature-itus people would be faced with the obvious; value?

Is not FL, then, a maximizing company, maximizing bucks by their robust prices? As they see it. If I read U right, an optimizing FL would have lower prices + more customers.

scooter, whether or not FL is maximizing their profits by their high prices really depends upon their distribution of their products. Some Bible study software is optimized for use by the general public and can be purchased through outlets like Christian bookstores and Amazon which means they can sell it for less because of such high distribut ion. FL, OTOH, dowes not distribute that way. Logos is a more specialized product with features that are optimized for pastors and Bible teachers. There target customers are not as many in number as say the customer base of a program like QuickVerse that can be purchased in more places by more people. However, FL must still pay for all of the same things that other software companies must pay, like software engineers, sales and marketing and the plethora of other expenses to run a company.

I would say that based on who they are marketing to, FL has a very reasonable price for what their software will do. I think I paid only $356 for the LOGOS 7 software. The rest of my expenses have been tied up in books that are very reasonably priced considering how much effort it must take to make them all completely searchable And linked to each other via the software engine.

Dennis Bledsoe

My issue is I bought Wordsearch and then LOGOS bought what was mine. I use a Mac and was told that I could stream WORDSEARCH , THAT WORKS ABOUT 50% OF WHAT I HAD PURCHASED. I am not happy with what has happen, when a person buys something it is theirs, you would not be happy if your car dealer sold your car and the buyer broufgt yo a YUGO to drive and told you that you would like it better. I do not see how anyone thinks this is a Christian way of doing business, this to me like liberals doings. You take what I give you and you have no choice. Do you think that our Lord would have done business this way?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1160655#Comment_1160655

Welcome to the forums. Hidden on the main page of the forums under Shortcuts is a link to the guidelines Forum Guidelines - Faithlife Forums (logos.com). I am sorry that you are unhappy that Logos bought out Wordsearch. Compare your situation with that of BibleWorks. BibleWorks users can use BibleWorks for as long as they own a computer with an operating system capable of running it -- then they lose all their resources and notes and must purchase a different product to start all over. As a WordSearch user, you can use WordSearch for as long as you own a computer with an operating system capable of running it ... but you have the option of converting your resources and notes to Logos, learn it at your leisure and not worry about starting all over ... you don't lose all your investment. A few minor corrections:

then LOGOS bought what was mine.

Logos did not purchase what you owned - you still own your Wordsearch as fully as ever. What they purchased from WordSearch was rights to distribute certain resources and the rights to maintain licenses for a customer base. Whether or not you ever switch to Logos is your personal choice as is when you do so.

THAT WORKS ABOUT 50% OF WHAT I HAD PURCHASED.

Faithlife has been very transparent on where they are in the conversion process of resources and notes. If you are unhappy working with the mix of converted and to be converted resources currently available, simply wait until the conversion is complete. I would expect that many WordSearch users are doing that.

how anyone thinks this is a Christian way of doing business, this to me like liberals doings

First, in the Faithlife forums we use living room politeness. Please do not insult the liberals in the room. And I, for one, fail to see anything unChristian in the business deal between WordSearch and Faithlife. Direct your anger at WordSearch for failing to produce a sustainable business model for their software, then thank them for sellout rather than leaving you up the river without a raft.

Then, comes the important part, when you get stuck trying to do something -- come to the forums for help - 24/7. Someone will be willing to help your out.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1160655#Comment_1160655

I use a Mac and was told that I could stream WORDSEARCH , THAT WORKS ABOUT 50% OF WHAT I HAD PURCHASED.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand. Before Wordsearch was sold by LifeWay to Faithlife, did you have 50% access or 100% access to your Wordsearch library? If you had 100% before and only 50% now, what changed? If you had 50% access before the sale of Wordsearch to Faithlife, is this a complaint to LifeWay, which owned Wordsearch at the time?

Just in case, have you read through https://www.logos.com/wordsearch?