PRE-PUB in Danger--fortress studies on passages in the gospels

https://www.logos.com/product/52352/fortress-studies-on-passages-in-the-gospels

I am not going to give an impassioned speech just an economics one:

These three books on Amazon Kindle will run you $75.74, Logos prepub price is $43.99..... This is a bargin I would hate to see go as I do not know when or if we ever would get a chance to own them in FL format if this goes bye bye next month.

-Dab

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Comments

Glenn Crouch

You convinced me, Dan - order placed [Y]

David Carter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883126#Comment_883126

You convinced me, Dan - order placed

Ditto [Y]

Vincent Chia

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883148#Comment_883148

Dan, I just placed the pre-order. Hope it goes through.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/883159#Comment_883159

Seeing we have under a month to get this under contract I am going to try to bump it ever 5 days....

-Dan

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/884076#Comment_884076

BUMP

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/884801#Comment_884801

Bump, we are up to the almost there. This set is a good set of books and being offered at a bargain price, often PP have been less than a bargain...not so here, please consider getting this small set as we only have a few days left before losing it from Logos ecosystem.

-dan

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/885382#Comment_885382

Okay, you got me too!

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/885384#Comment_885384

I believe we only have to March 19th to get this under contract:

Endorsements (Please note I have not included identical ones from the FL product page but I have included ones that are expanded beyond the form listed on the FL product page):

Jesus' Sermon on the Mount: Mandating a Better Righteousness

"Jack R. Lundbom writes with passion and power as a Christian rabbi and prophet. He not only draws upon the Old Testament and rabbinic sources to exegete Jesus' Sermon on the Mount but also interprets the Sermon in light of centuries of Christian insights, so as to proclaim the mandate of holy living for our generation today. A highly academic yet readable and practical book."
—K. K. Yeo
Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary

"Drawing deeply on the author's seasoned scholarship, and remarkably accessible to the general reader, the book offers a fresh and engaging study of the Sermon on the Mount. Jack Lundbom places the teachings of the Sermon into the broad context of the Bible, ancient Jewish teachings, and the history of interpretation for the sake of clarifying the sometimes perplexing, always challenging, pronouncements of the Sermon. Moreover, he draws upon hymns, devotional literature, and pastoral experience to illustrate how the teachings of the Sermon can be applied to life in the present. The book is an excellent resource for the preacher, teacher, and any student of the Bible who is looking for solid scholarship and insightful application for service to the church and for personal reflection."
—Arland J. Hultgren
Emeritus, Luther Seminary

“Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount is a gold mine of Old Testament and ancient Jewish texts used to interpret Jesus’ programmatic statement of how to live a holy life. Devotional and realistic regarding the challenges of following Jesus, the study at times softens, yet always sharpens how the words of Jesus apply to today. Lundbom’s work also places the Sermon in dialogue with others who have learned from it over the centuries—from early church authors to reformers such as Luther, Calvin, and Wesley, and from Kierkegaard to the hymns of Swedish Pietism.”
—Walter F. Taylor Jr.
Trinity Lutheran Seminary

“It is a great privilege to have the thoughts and reflections of a wonderful Jeremiah scholar on the Sermon on the Mount. Jack Lundbom has done a great job in signaling out its many echoes from the Jewish Scriptures. He convincingly shows that the Sermon of the Mount does not constitute an unattainable ideal, but that its views need to be lived out in the imitatio Dei.”
—George van Kooten
University of Groningen

My Flesh Is Meat Indeed: A Nonsacramental Reading of John 6:51-58

"In comparing John's Gospel to Hellenistic romance novels, Warren has drawn attention to intriguing parallels regarding divine-mortal relationships and their relevance for understanding Johannine Christology, particularly the incarnation of the divine Word. She also poignantly reminds Johannine (and New Testament!) scholars that they neglect Greco-Roman sources at their peril."
—Benjamin E. Reynolds
Tyndale University College

“Warren’s study offers a refreshingly new approach to centuries-old debates around the Johannine Jesus’ humanity, divinity, sacramentality and sacrifice. I dare say that the argument for a Christological reading of John 6:51c-58, judiciously informed by a comparison of literary tropes from contemporaneous Greco-Roman novels, is well worth chewing over.”
—Colleen M. Conway
Seton Hall University

The Disciples' Prayer: The Prayer Jesus Taught in Its Historical Setting

"Jeffrey Gibson takes the praying of the Lord's Prayer so seriously that he wrestles with what pray-ers of the prayer are actually praying for. He frames his answer in terms of discovering Jesus' intention for the prayer and argues that it concerns discipleship, and that disciples of Jesus pray it to secure God's aid to assist them in being faithful to God’s ways. This is an insightful and stimulating contribution."
—Warren Carter
Brite Divinity School, Texas Christian University

"One could be forgiven for thinking that, when it comes to such familiar and oft-studied words as those of the Lord's Prayer, little new could be said, and any new proposals would most likely be wrong, if not indeed far-fetched. Yet in his book, The Disciples' Prayer, Jeffrey Gibson not only offers new and compelling interpretations of the prayer and its background but even suggests that the very designation we have been using for the prayer is off target and has led to us misunderstanding it in important ways. As if that weren't enough, he manages to do this with a focus that is exegetical and scholarly, and yet also keeps an eye on what it means for Christians to actually pray this prayer. Gibson's book may revolutionize not just New Testament scholarship's understanding of this famous prayer, but the prayer life of the contemporary church as well."
—James F. McGrath
Butler University

"One might be forgiven for questioning the need for yet another book on the Lord's Prayer, but that question is answered confidently by Jeffrey Gibson's book, The Disciples' Prayer. His analysis of what is most likely the original setting of this prayer is both exhaustive and impressive. Gibson's interpretation of 'The Disciples' Prayer' as a part of Jesus' efforts to instruct the disciples in maintaining faithfulness to God deserves a wide readership."
—David Crump
Calvin College

"Jeffrey Gibson brings years of experience as a careful biblical scholar to analyze this famous prayer. The Disciples' Prayer will no doubt become the standard, go-to work on this much-debated topic. This will be deservedly so, for it is an excellent and reliable resource for both scholars and students."
—James Crossley
University of Sheffield

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/885384#Comment_885384

I placed my order just in case it might get saved. Being almost there should keep it off the list...won't it?

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/885894#Comment_885894

Being almost there should keep it off the list...won't it?

I wouldn't count on that but I think there is a fair chance we might make it through... The one book feels somewhat a weaker of the three... but that said the other two look stellar and as the one on the Lord's prayer is being labeled as "the standard, go-to work" should mean it is one most everyone should hope to have access to in their library. God willing they will make it under contract. $45 is not too much for 3 quality books, but I do realize you have to want them to order them. I also realize there are hundreds of books many people want, these volumes feel very highly applicable and of a seemingly good quality. I for one will be getting the Sermon on the Mount and Disciple's Prayer in Amazon Kindle if I can't get them in Logos, but this will end up costing me significantly more than the cost of the 3 book set in Logos. I see valuable grain to feed my soul but others may well see only chaff. Hopefully enough will see the grain.

-dan

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/885906#Comment_885906

Confirmed that the morning of March 20th those not with enough numbers will removed.... Lets do our best to get this under contract. I am pretty sure no one will regret adding these books to their library.

-dan

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886228#Comment_886228

Thanks everyone it has gone green.... every who didn't still a chance to get in on a pretty interesting set.

-Dan

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886553#Comment_886553

Thanks everyone it has gone green.... every who didn't still a chance to get in on a pretty interesting set.

-Dan

Sorry, Dan, it still needs a few more orders. There was a slight calculation mishap on the back end.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886555#Comment_886555

I'm not in on this one. And this post isn't directed at the brave one (Ben). But I really wonder about calculation errors. I assume when a prepub gets close, that's when they wonder if maybe it needs a re-check. And the numbers have to be exact. 'A few more needed...'.

At the heart of the issue is Faithlife accounting ... customers?? Versus live customers that want the book (in Logos). The issue is rarely a good deal anymore. Just get the book. If it fails prepub ( and the all important recalculation), the customer is out of luck.

My two Brill hebrew/greek encyclopedias were on the brink of 'in Logos!'. Then suddenly 50% disappeared. No explanation. I still have the money. But I only prepub about-to-ship. Don't trust them.

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886560#Comment_886560

I'm not in on this one. And this post isn't directed at the brave one (Ben). But I really wonder about calculation errors. I assume when a prepub gets close, that's when they wonder if maybe it needs a re-check. And the numbers have to be exact. 'A few more needed...'.

At the heart of the issue is Faithlife accounting ... customers?? Versus live customers that want the book (in Logos). The issue is rarely a good deal anymore. Just get the book. If it fails prepub ( and the all important recalculation), the customer is out of luck.

My two Brill hebrew/greek encyclopedias were on the brink of 'in Logos!'. Then suddenly 50% disappeared. No explanation. I still have the money. But I only prepub about-to-ship. Don't trust them.

Your question is completely understandable (I knew this question would be coming and almost tried to address it in my initial post).

There are a lot of reasons costs can change on a product (cancellations, increase in production costs, etc.). In this case, it was a box that hadn't been checked on the back end. This resulted in the product page showing that the product was funded when, in fact, it was not.

I'm having the team go through all of the pre-pubs to cancel list and ensuring we have the correct costs in place and the correct boxes checked.

I'm sorry for the confusion.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886567#Comment_886567

I'm sorry for the confusion.

No backsies... [:P]

Will try to convince more but not sure it will happen but God willing we will get it through.

-dan

RRD

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886568#Comment_886568

Ben has posted a PrePub cancellation list with a disappearance date of March 20 for those failing to reach full development funding. All of the PrePubs on the list have a certain number of pre-orders at the published discount price. What if the failing PrePubs were cancelled on March 20th and immediately reposted for one week with a new Pre-Order price reflecting the full development cost divided by the number of previous orders received for the respective resources. Motivated customers would then have final opportunities to save resources from cancellation by placing pre-orders at the higher prices.

I would certainly pay a few dollars more for this thread's specific resource to save it from cancellation.

Not exactly on topic, but I'd be willing to pay $4 more (full regular price) for another of Dan's recommendations https://www.logos.com/product/53053/the-new-jerusalem-bible-the-complete-text-of-the-ancient-canon-of-the-scriptures

just to get it into development.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886579#Comment_886579

Roger, not disagreeing with your intent. But you'd have to kick in $15 extra, not $4. And therein lies the problem. The price would exceed ethical behavior.

Basically, Logos has a fairly narrow customer base, and can't take a chance on a Bible. True.

RRD

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886580#Comment_886580

I don't understand the $15 extra. I simply subtracted my $15.99 prepub price from the published $19.99 regular price = $4 - unless I'm misreading the regular price.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886586#Comment_886586

I think Denise meant to get the NJB into production we would need to double the price. since its currently at 50% or there about..

-Dan

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886588#Comment_886588

Roger, sorry to confuse! Even if all the bidders kicked in $4, you'd still soon be on the prepub deathlist.

I really don't understand Logos. And I'm not even remotely Catholic. But not long ago, I received a stack of Bibles from Logos, all badly translated (except for Julia Smith's, of course). But NJB sits and sits. I'm just glad I don't work at Bellingham HQ. They have an odd set of priorities. (Yes, business, but fairly well regarded 'Bibles'?). And, yes, I have a nice collection of Logos prepub'd resources denying Exodus, YHWH, and so forth, all lovingly approved for production and sales.

Ok, let's get back to what's important. Basketball!!

David Carter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886567#Comment_886567

I'm sorry for the confusion.

And I'm sorry that this is just pathetic

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886606#Comment_886606

I'm sorry for the confusion.

And I'm sorry that this is just pathetic

It would be really poor form of FL to pull this title now given their error in the calculation and that other resources no where near as close as this title is to making it will not be pulled on the 20th March.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886613#Comment_886613

What I find interesting to s that FL is trying a more typical business approach offering two offerings from fortress press with no guarantee that they will sell enough to recover costs, yet we have nearly enough to cover costs here and may not get them, personally the books chosen to try out none prepub have no interest to me, yet these three deeply interest me. Faithlife will do what they feel is best, but if this set gets pulled I can already see there will be hard feelings. NOT BY ME -- I want these books I am disappointed that it went under contract briefly giving me hope, but realize things go wrong. If FL doesn't want to sell me these books it is their business, but they are the only hurting themselves in the end, I recently saw a new user at least to the forms asking for an availability date for his Bible, but seeing there was absolutely no red at all in the line did my best to explain the system and that there was no guarantee that it would ever be out. The system that has worked well for FL in the past may in the end be its downfall. When I can get the book I want right away in Kindle why wait years for it in FL. Yes integration is nice but you need it when you need it sometimes. Several times I have seen Accordance or Olivetree release a book while FL books sit in Limbo of PP. and often these companies are having introductory pricing that is far lower than FL PP pricing. For me NJB full edition is the perfect candidate for development now as it could easily be added into every single LogosVerbum 8 library package offered. This is how many CP books finally got made. In the end FL knows their business but sometimes their actions seem less than ideal or wise to me, but then again I am not in a position to know half of what the situation is at FL..

-dan

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886568#Comment_886568

I'm sorry for the confusion.

No backsies...

Will try to convince more but not sure it will happen but God willing we will get it through.

-dan

It's really close again. I think with a little push we can get this over before 3/20.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886691#Comment_886691

While at 96% https://www.logos.com/product/52352/fortress-studies-on-passages-in-the-gospels I would hope it gose through people give it a chance, remember like all Logos purchases if you decide you don't want it return it it within 30 days is an option. But I do think most will enjoy these books from what i have seen.

-dan

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886691#Comment_886691

I'm sorry for the confusion.

No backsies...

Will try to convince more but not sure it will happen but God willing we will get it through.

-dan

It's really close again. I think with a little push we can get this over before 3/20.

There is no FL in 'we' of this effort Ben, it has been Dan doing all the hard work. FL will only be remembered by customers as the grinches who removed this offering when it was so close if Dan's efforts don't get this set over the iine.

Where are the regular blog posts highlighting the value of these titles that FL are set to execute ? Those blog posts will potentially reach a customer audience beyond the forums that Dan on his own can not reach, not only vai the web but they will appear on the home pages of users who have blog posts turned on in the software.

FL are not in a position to be claiming 'we' when they have done very little to actually get this or other titles over the line that they are going to remove from the prepub page very soon.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886708#Comment_886708

I have a feeling 'we' is Ben, not Faithlife. If it's like most companies, the rule myseriously floats down from the sky.

Plus the blog is political hot-topics. They're busy saving the cosmos.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886721#Comment_886721

I have a feeling 'we' is Ben, not Faithlife. If it's like most companies, the rule myseriously floats down from the sky.

Plus the blog is political hot-topics. They're busy saving the cosmos.

I was trying to avoid directing my comments at Ben as an individual because he is on these forums on an official company account acting as a spokesperson for FL. But you are right Denise, unless the company's legal eagles have told Ben what to write, the comment did arise with the individual and not the company.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886728#Comment_886728

A Different Look at the Lord’s Prayer

By Loren Rosson

Loren Rosson When Christians pray the Our Father, they are usually praising God and asking for blessings.

But when Jesus’ disciples prayed it, they were asking for protection against disobedience–for God to keep them on a difficult straight-and-narrow.

“The Disciples’ Prayer: The Prayer Jesus Taught in Its Historical Setting” by Jeffrey B. Gibson is available from the library in paperback.

So says Jeffrey Gibson in his hot-off-the-press analysis of what we call the Lord’s Prayer, but which he calls The Disciples’ Prayer since it was the disciples who prayed it. It’s an historical analysis that puts the prayer in its original context.

Gibson asks intriguing questions: Which version of the prayer is more reliable, Matthew’s (6:9-13) or Luke’s (11:2-4)? (He thinks Matthew’s). Did Jesus inherit the prayer from John the Baptist? (He says no.) Was the prayer like other Jewish future-looking prayers? (Not quite.)

The prayer emerges not so much as a plea for God to make his kingdom come, but to help the disciples maintain an obedience which the kingdom required.

To say “Our Father” was a confession of God’s lordship that pledged disciple loyalty whatever the cost. “Hallow your name” asked that the disciples not dishonor God through disobedience, even at the cost of their lives. The plea for “forgiveness” was about the principle of nonretaliation and the constraint to love enemies.

Loving enemies is always a tall order, but martyrdom (especially pacifist martyrdom) is terrifying.

There were Jewish resistance groups in the first century whose messiahs or leaders effectively preached, “an eye for an eye, with a rock through the head, too.” When the disciples were told to turn the other cheek, they weren’t being taught a cute Sunday-school metaphor, but rather to be merciful and even to succumb to martyrdom if it came to that.

The Disciples’ Prayer is a fascinating historical investigation, even for secularists like me. For Christians it carries the bonus of offering an alternative way of thinking about this famous prayer. Perhaps it was less about “praying down” the kingdom of God, and more about keeping oneself constrained to be worthy of it.

About Loren Rosson

Loren Rosson heads up the circulation department at the Nashua Public Library. He's worked at the library since graduating from Lewis and Clark College, with the exception of the two years he spent in Lesotho with the Peace Corps, teaching high school.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886741#Comment_886741

BOOK REVIEW
Warren, Meredith J.C., My Flesh Is Meat Indeed: A Nonsacramental
Reading of John 6:51-58 (Minneapolis: Fortress, 2015). 304 pp. Pbk.
USD44.00.

Meredith J.C. Warren completed her doctorate in New Testament and Early Judaism at McGill University in 2013, was a postdoctoral fellow at the University of Ottawa, and is now Lecturer in Biblical and Religious Studies at the University of Sheffield. In this revised version of her doctoral dissertation, Warren examines Jn 6.51-58 from the view of the cultural expectation of cannibalism in the heroic tradition throughout Hellenistic literature in general and Greco-Roman romance novels in particular. The subtitle, ‘A Nonsacramental Reading of John 6.51-58’, suggests part of its aim. To counter the sacramental reading of scholars such as Rudolf Bultmann, Warren proposes a christological interpretation of Jn 6.51-58 ‘in light of the tension throughout the Gospel between the divinity and humanity of Jesus’ (p. 2). Warren considers Greco-Roman romance novels ‘as a window through which to view the Weltanschauung that to some extent shaped John’s approach to identifying divinity in Jesus’ (pp. 8, 246). Noting that these novels were probably composed after John’s Gospel, Warren suggests that they preserve a way of thinking about how divinity is conferred on extraordinary humans, a way of thinking that seems, from its prevalence dating back to the Homeric texts and continuing in popularity in the novels, to have survived and thrived through the time period in which John was writing (pp. 8, 246).

Warren examines the development of literary tropes for identifying divinity in Hellenistic literature and compares these tropes with Jn 6.51c-58. Complementing her approach with theological interpretation and cultural expectation, Warren argues ‘Jesus’ exhortation to consume his flesh and drink his blood represents the contemporaneity of literary death and heroic cult aition in the same way that this reference to sacrificial death functions in the romances’ (p. 248). Furthermore, it is in this statement of consumption and death at God’s behest that Jesus and God are identified, in the same way that first in the epics and later in the novels, the antagonistic gods become associated with heroes through the consumption of the cultic sacrificial meal (p. 248). This book consists of an introduction, four main chapters, and a conclusion. The introduction includes four sections: aim, method, main themes, and outlines. Its method contains two assumptions. First, John’s Gospel is a literary whole. And second, it is legitimate to compare the literary tropes and devices of John’s Gospel and the texts produced in the Greco-Roman world, as they are all part of Hellenistic literature. A brief definition of four main themes follows (1) ‘Ritual in Ink’ refers to a ritual that exists in a text but is not a real historical event; (2) ‘Contemporaneity’ is a term used by Bultmann and picked up by Warren to describe ‘the peculiar quality of Johannine time. John has no future: everything that occurs takes place in the present moment’ (p.10); (3) ‘Simultaneity’ is an ontological term proposed by Warren ‘that points to the intersection of multiple identities within the same being’ (p. 11); and (4) ‘Cannibalism and Anthropophagy’ usually describe ‘the consumption of human flesh by other humans’ (p. 13). Warren suggests that these themes ‘serve as a demarcator of social boundaries between right/insider and wrong/outsider’ (p. 13) but not of historical reality. The introduction ends with an outline of the book that is slightly different from the actual content. For greater clarity, it could have included an explanation of how the four main themes relate to each other and to the individual chapters.

Chapter 1, ‘“The Word Was Made Flesh” (John 1:14)’, starts with a discussion of Jesus’ divine and human identities and Christology in John, particularly in John 6, and narrows it to the controversial issues in 6.51-58 regarding whether the passage is an insertion and whether it is related to the Eucharist. Warren argues against both premises, opposing scholars such as Bultmann, Clark-Soles, Kümmel, Ruckstuhl and Dune. In view of Jesus’ identity as Son of God, she proposes to compare the antagonistic relationship between Jesus and God and between human and divine identities with what is experienced by heroes and heroines in heroic literature. She quotes Gregory Nagy who says that ‘antagonism between a hero and god in myth corresponds to the ritual requirements of symbiosis between hero and god in cult’ (p. 60).

Chapter 2, ‘“Second Only to Artemis” (Leucippe and Clitophon 7.15)’, presents four relevant Greco-Roman romance novels: Chariton’s Chaereas and Callirhoe; Xenophon of Ephesus’s An Ephesian Tale; Achilles Tatius’s Leucippe and Clitophon; and Heliodorus’s An Ethiopian Story. Warren examines the development of the romance and the trope of divine epiphany to show how the heroines are described as goddesses in light of their associations with the classical heroes of the epics and the deity.

Chapter 3, ‘“Her Viscera Leapt Out” (Leucippe and Clitophon 3.15)’, elaborates Nagy’s understanding of the hero–god relationship in Homeric literature and cult. Warren argues that human sacrifice and cannibalism in the cultural imagination achieves the climax of the association between the heroines and the deity to realize the ultimate antagonism and the identification with the divine. Thus, the chapter’s content is formed by topics such as ‘antagonism between heroes and gods’, ‘sacrifice in Greek and Roman religion’, ‘the sacrificial meal’, ‘human sacrifice in the Greek imagination’, ‘the function of cannibalism in antiquity’, ‘human sacrifice and implied cannibalism in the novels’, and ‘sacrifice and simultaneity’.

Chapter 4, ‘“My Flesh is Meat Indeed” (John 6:55, KJV)’, concludes the findings from the previous chapters and argues further the identification of Jesus’ divinity upon the cannibalistic statement and the antagonistic relationship between Jesus and God. This antagonistic relationship is shown through the trope of antagonism, in that it was the intent of God to send Jesus down to earth to die on behalf of others. She borrows Lawrence Will’s literary comparison between Life of Aesop and John’s Gospel, which attempts to show the similarity between Aesop and Jesus regarding the pattern of alienation from the community, the expiatory death and the use of the antagonistic tropes (e.g. pharmakos), to demonstrate this antagonistic relationship. She concludes that Jesus’ divinity is identified simultaneously and contemporaneously in the conflation of Jesus’ literary death and God’s glory through the temporal convergence of Jesus’ literary death and cult aition, the anthropophagic statement. This statement also functions polemically as a boundary marker of factionalism but reverses the negative connotation of being barbaric (outsider) to being positive (insider), marking those who belong to Jesus. In the conclusion, ‘“Equal to God” (John 5:18; Iliad 20.447)’, Warren introduces two books to sustain her argument. First is Wayne

Meeks’s Prophet-King: Moses Traditions and Johannine Christology. Warren aligns her Hellenistic view of Jesus’ dual characters, human and divine, with Meeks’s Jewish view of Jesus as prophet and king, to point to John’s Christology. However, this comparison seems misplaced. Besides the difference between characters, Meeks’s Christology is drawn from Jesus’ titles as prophet and king in the overall structure of the Gospel in Jewish tradition, but Warren focuses on Jesus’ humanity and divinity corresponding to Hellenistic heroic tradition. Another book she uses is Kasper Bro Larsen’s Recognizing the Stranger: Recognition Scenes and the Gospel of John. Warren associates her assumption with Larsen’s that John participates in the literary world of the ancient Mediterranean, and they both endorse ‘the interaction of Johannine Christology with the workings of the divine-mortal relationship in Greco-Roman religion’ (pp. 251-52). These correlations, which seem to ‘transfer’ the possibility of using the trope of the recognition scene (recognizing God through Jesus) to the trope of sacrifice as a divinizing act (identifying Jesus’ divine-mortal identity), are misguided. Even though Warren tries to benefit from Larsen’s work that examines a popular trope that occurs in both Greco-Roman and Jewish literature and is discussed in Aristotle’s Poetics (Larsen, pp. 20- 21), their differences in function make their usage text-specific rather than general. Whereas the trope of the recognition scene unveils the hidden identities, sacrifice as divinizing act identifies heroic divinity. Even though both tropes are about identification, their characteristics do not allow ‘transfer’ overall.

The strengths of this book are several. Observed within the multicultural milieu of John’s Gospel, Warren’s attempt to deviate from both Christian and Jewish traditions and explore the human–divine relation through Hellenistic literature demonstrates her innovation in Johannine scholarship. Her investigation of tropes for identifying divinity from Homer to Greco-Roman romance novels arouses the awareness of a broad spectrum of religious texts in Hellenistic literature around Jesus’ time. Her study of ritual function in literature widens our understanding of it in literary culture. Several critiques need to be considered, however. One of the implied assumptions of the book is that all co-existing works of literature in the Greco-Roman world would be equally able to influence the development of John’s Gospel despite disparate ages, accessibility, authority in public or religious education, genres (classic epic poetry, entertaining romance novel, philosophy, etc.) and compatibility of belief (monotheism or polytheism). In fact, these constraints limit the influence of other works on the shape of the Gospel. The influence of Greco-Roman romance novels needs first to overcome these constraints to secure the assumption.

Another problem is the incongruity between the context of a Hellenistic sacrificial trope and the plot in John 6. Jesus’ statement is proclaimed, while he is teaching in the Capernaum synagogue with the Jews. For several reasons, it is unlikely that John would communicate Jesus’ divinity in this way as used in Greek heroines within a Jewish setting, or to expect the reader to retrieve its reference from a Hellenistic romance novel. First, it is uncertain whether John knew this Hellenistic trope because the plot of cannibalism as sacrificial meal occurs only in one novel among the four examined by Warren and is initiated by bandits portrayed as taking out Leucippe’s viscera, but this ends up as a false-death (pp. 170, 190). Secondly, considering that Hellenistic sacrificial cult varied regarding localized heroes, communities and deities, it is more likely that even a Greek would associate Jesus, a Jew, with the Jews’ deity in a local synagogue if sacrificial overtones were detectable. As indication of this, John also portrays some Greeks as wanting to see Jesus in Jerusalem on their way to worship God (Jn 12.20-21). Further, Jn 6.51-58 could hardly trace an antagonistic relationship between Jesus and God. Rather, Jn 6.57 shows Jesus’ obedience to the Father. It would be too abrupt to interpret Jesus’ statement as ultimate antagonism to God. Additionally, the quoted heroic literature lacks the ‘life-giving’ aspect found in Jesus’ cannibalistic statement (Jn 6.51, 53-54, 57-58; cf. Jn 4.50-51, 53). More obvious is that there is no discussion of blood drinking, especially when blood in Judaism has the meaning of ‘life’ and when eating flesh and drinking blood are intertwined in this scene.

Lastly, the legitimacy of applying Bultmann’s concept of contemporaneity to Jn 6.51-58 is doubtful (pp. 10-11, 227-30). Bultmann means by ‘contemporaneity’ the convergence of present and future time within an eschatological event according to the particular text. In Jn 4.31-38, Bultmann interprets the overlapping of ‘waiting for four months’ and ‘now is ready for harvest’ as ‘seed-time’ and ‘harvest’ happening at the same moment as an eschatological event. Similarly, in Jn 12.27-33, the past and future are bound together regarding ‘now’ (v. 23) and ‘hour’ (vv. 27, 31), both of which refer to the hour of death as the hour of glorifying God occurring at the time Jesus calls now. However, Jn 6.51-58 does not indicate any convergence of time. Conversely, Bultmann, in his book History and Eschatology, discusses the eschatological present in John’s Gospel and singles out some verses, such as Jn 5.28 and 6.51-58, as exceptions to traditional apocalyptic eschatology. Thus, Warren’s application is probably flawed.

In conclusion, Warren’s work demonstrates the horizon of heroic tradition from Homeric literature to Greco-Roman romance novels and the preservation of cultural heritage of deity and ritual. Its content puts more weight on examining Hellenistic literature than the Gospel. Some inconsistencies in names occur. Some arguments are subject to interpretation. This book would be one of the resources for those who are interested in heroic romance literature and John’s Gospel.

Tat Yu Lam
McMaster Divinity College
Hamilton, ON

Journal of Greco-Roman Christianity and Judaism

scooter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886744#Comment_886744

One big para.: I thought about reading it, but thought my eyeballs might bleed. So:no.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886746#Comment_886746

One big para.: I thought about reading it, but thought my eyeballs might bleed. So:no.

Sorry it looked better before I pushed post... I think I got it corrected now..

-Dan

scooter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886748#Comment_886748

I think I got it corrected now

Thanks, Dan. Will read now.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886749#Comment_886749

It's frustrating that Jesus' Sermon on the Mount: Mandating a Better Righteousness by Jack R. Lundbom is the book I am most interested in in this set but I have yet to come across a review.

-dan

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886708#Comment_886708

I'm sorry for the confusion.

No backsies...

Will try to convince more but not sure it will happen but God willing we will get it through.

-dan

It's really close again. I think with a little push we can get this over before 3/20.

FL are not in a position to be claiming 'we' when they have done very little to actually get this or other titles over the line that they are going to remove from the prepub page very soon.

Perhaps that was a misused pronoun, I wasn't trying to make an intentional statement. You're right that in this case the success of this collection is largely due to Dan's efforts.

However, I don't think it's fair to say that we haven't done anything to promote this collection (or other collections that we are planning to cancel). This book has been up on pre-pub for almost 2 years. We've promoted it through the same channels we promote every other pre-pub. Further, we posted a notification here on the forum and are sending out some more emails informing customers that if they don't get their orders in this product it will be cancelled. Part of the philosophy of pre-pub is that if we don't get enough orders to produce a book, we don't produce it.

It is in our best interest to get this collection produced. Cancelling it means cancelling the revenue attached to all the pre-pub orders. However, we've learned over the past few years that it's important to not let titles linger on pre-pub for too long.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886765#Comment_886765

If my ruler is correct we are 99% there, thank you for all you have joined in, I hope we all enjoy the books if they make it. For others on the fence please consider them i think they will be a blessing (yes some more than others). We are close to getting them under contract and have about 10 days (or 7 in reality since it was stated on another thread March 16 is the magic date). I know not every offering is able to be saved of the items on the chopping block but this set seems to be one worth it in my eyes.

-dan

David Carter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886890#Comment_886890

If my ruler is correct we are 99% there, thank you for all you have joined in, I hope we all enjoy the books if they make it.

It's gone green (again!) on my screen. Hopefully it will stay green this time

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886765#Comment_886765

Ben I tried not to make imy initial comment on this issue about you as an individual, another customer brought you as an individual directly into the comment. But now you have come at me as an individual and have been unfair by taking my comments about FL's actions since you announced this title was in danger of being cancelled and suggested I was talking about FL's actions from the time this, and other titles were added as pre-pubs. You don't have to agree with my views but twisting my words is not an appropriate way to respond to our difference of view.

I'm sorry for the confusion.

No backsies...

Will try to convince more but not sure it will happen but God willing we will get it through.

-dan

It's really close again. I think with a little push we can get this over before 3/20.

There is no FL in 'we' of this effort Ben, it has been Dan doing all the hard work. FL will only be remembered by customers as the grinches who removed this offering when it was so close if Dan's efforts don't get this set over the iine.

Where are the regular blog posts highlighting the value of these titles that FL are set to execute ? Those blog posts will potentially reach a customer audience beyond the forums that Dan on his own can not reach, not only vai the web but they will appear on the home pages of users who have blog posts turned on in the software.

FL are not in a position to be claiming 'we' when they have done very little to actually get this or other titles over the line that they are going to remove from the prepub page very soon.

Perhaps that was a misused pronoun, I wasn't trying to make an intentional statement. You're right that in this case the success of this collection is largely due to Dan's efforts.

DAL

It's GREEN!!!! You did it Dan! Now let's hope nobody pulls out 👍

Glenn Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/887005#Comment_887005

It's GREEN!!!! You did it Dan! Now let's hope nobody pulls out 👍

Agreed - good work, Dan [:D]

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/887002#Comment_887002

Ben I tried not to make imy initial comment on this issue about you as an individual, another customer brought you as an individual directly into the comment. But now you have come at me as an individual and have been unfair by taking my comments about FL's actions since you announced this title was in danger of being cancelled and suggested I was talking about FL's actions from the time this, and other titles were added as pre-pubs. You don't have to agree with my views but twisting my words is not an appropriate way to respond to our difference of view.

I'm sorry for the confusion.

No backsies...

Will try to convince more but not sure it will happen but God willing we will get it through.

-dan

It's really close again. I think with a little push we can get this over before 3/20.

There is no FL in 'we' of this effort Ben, it has been Dan doing all the hard work. FL will only be remembered by customers as the grinches who removed this offering when it was so close if Dan's efforts don't get this set over the iine.

Where are the regular blog posts highlighting the value of these titles that FL are set to execute ? Those blog posts will potentially reach a customer audience beyond the forums that Dan on his own can not reach, not only vai the web but they will appear on the home pages of users who have blog posts turned on in the software.

FL are not in a position to be claiming 'we' when they have done very little to actually get this or other titles over the line that they are going to remove from the prepub page very soon.

Perhaps that was a misused pronoun, I wasn't trying to make an intentional statement. You're right that in this case the success of this collection is largely due to Dan's efforts.

However, I don't think it's fair to say that we haven't done anything to promote this collection (or other collections that we are planning to cancel). This book has been up on pre-pub for almost 2 years. We've promoted it through the same channels we promote every other pre-pub. Further, we posted a notification here on the forum and are sending out some more emails informing customers that if they don't get their orders in this product it will be cancelled. Part of the philosophy of pre-pub is that if we don't get enough orders to produce a book, we don't produce it.

It is in our best interest to get this collection produced. Cancelling it means cancelling the revenue attached to all the pre-pub orders. However, we've learned over the past few years that it's important to not let titles linger on pre-pub for too long.

I am very sorry if anything I said felt like I was attacking you as an individual. That was not my intention at all. Please accept my apologies.

DBR

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/887002#Comment_887002

Ben I tried not to make imy initial comment on this issue about you as an individual, another customer brought you as an individual directly into the comment. But now you have come at me as an individual and have been unfair by taking my comments about FL's actions since you announced this title was in danger of being cancelled and suggested I was talking about FL's actions from the time this, and other titles were added as pre-pubs. You don't have to agree with my views but twisting my words is not an appropriate way to respond to our difference of view.

?????

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/887084#Comment_887084

Apology accepted Ben.

Ben I tried not to make imy initial comment on this issue about you as an individual, another customer brought you as an individual directly into the comment. But now you have come at me as an individual and have been unfair by taking my comments about FL's actions since you announced this title was in danger of being cancelled and suggested I was talking about FL's actions from the time this, and other titles were added as pre-pubs. You don't have to agree with my views but twisting my words is not an appropriate way to respond to our difference of view.

I'm sorry for the confusion.

No backsies...

Will try to convince more but not sure it will happen but God willing we will get it through.

-dan

It's really close again. I think with a little push we can get this over before 3/20.

There is no FL in 'we' of this effort Ben, it has been Dan doing all the hard work. FL will only be remembered by customers as the grinches who removed this offering when it was so close if Dan's efforts don't get this set over the iine.

Where are the regular blog posts highlighting the value of these titles that FL are set to execute ? Those blog posts will potentially reach a customer audience beyond the forums that Dan on his own can not reach, not only vai the web but they will appear on the home pages of users who have blog posts turned on in the software.

FL are not in a position to be claiming 'we' when they have done very little to actually get this or other titles over the line that they are going to remove from the prepub page very soon.

Perhaps that was a misused pronoun, I wasn't trying to make an intentional statement. You're right that in this case the success of this collection is largely due to Dan's efforts.

However, I don't think it's fair to say that we haven't done anything to promote this collection (or other collections that we are planning to cancel). This book has been up on pre-pub for almost 2 years. We've promoted it through the same channels we promote every other pre-pub. Further, we posted a notification here on the forum and are sending out some more emails informing customers that if they don't get their orders in this product it will be cancelled. Part of the philosophy of pre-pub is that if we don't get enough orders to produce a book, we don't produce it.

It is in our best interest to get this collection produced. Cancelling it means cancelling the revenue attached to all the pre-pub orders. However, we've learned over the past few years that it's important to not let titles linger on pre-pub for too long.

I am very sorry if anything I said felt like I was attacking you as an individual. That was not my intention at all. Please accept my apologies.

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/887091#Comment_887091

Ben I tried not to make imy initial comment on this issue about you as an individual, another customer brought you as an individual directly into the comment. But now you have come at me as an individual and have been unfair by taking my comments about FL's actions since you announced this title was in danger of being cancelled and suggested I was talking about FL's actions from the time this, and other titles were added as pre-pubs. You don't have to agree with my views but twisting my words is not an appropriate way to respond to our difference of view.

?????

That's what I'm saying. There was absolutely nothing in Ben's statement that even remotely sounded like a personal attack. It's this type of manufactured outrage that makes me read the forums much anymore. I don't always agree with every decision Faithlife makes, but people get angry when employees don't respond, and then they get angry when they do respond, even when they just give facts. as Ben did in the response above.

I'm glad this set got into production!

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/886721#Comment_886721

I have a feeling 'we' is Ben, not Faithlife. If it's like most companies, the rule myseriously floats down from the sky.

Plus the blog is political hot-topics. They're busy saving the cosmos.

I suspect I'm the 'It's Ben!' person. My allusion was that Ben has to follow the upstairs rules no matter. Very similar to the no-manuals rule, which various Faithlifers dance around. Which, by the way, the 'Help' resource looks very manual-y with illustrations now. Whoever's doing it, it's nice.

The underlying frustration with prepub is valid. The prepub system is the book chooser in an environment where there is only one source for books (used to be many in the Libby days). And worse, the customers vary by how/if they go to heaven ... it's not a hobby. And the blog is now mainly a software selling tool. That leaves a carot-based list of thousands of books, most of which are deathlist candidates. If you sign up, good luck ... you're on your own, and the numbers are not remotely in your favor.

Some forum members try to push deathlist candidates (NJSB comes to mind). And it's quite frustrating. Does the company care? Ben says 'yes'. But Ben's tools for helping out are almost non-existent. The list. (And no reflection on Ben.)

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/887259#Comment_887259

You end up with situations like this:

http://www.nphdirect.com/nphweb/html/bhol/innerpage.jsp?c=BHOL&cs=NBBC&sc=ELECV&ss=NA&nid=lcol

We are wold the digital volumes can be purchased here... but then you come here and find things like: New Beacon Bible Commentary Upgrade (5 vols.)

So you end up finding the volume you want that should be purchasable in Logos so if you want it right away you need to then go over to Amazon and buy the kindle version.

-Dan

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/887275#Comment_887275

Beacon requires a Mac for Logos. Per the publisher page. I wonder how much disinterest is misinformation. If I read their page right.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/887276#Comment_887276

I am sure there is a lot but when you have pages directing you to FL to be able to purchase I can see some will be disappointed to find out the volumes released 2 years ago are still not yet available in Logos.

-dan

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/887253#Comment_887253

If either of you have put up with years of MVP's on these forums acting out of line and telling people what they are and are not allowed to think, do and say on these forums you would understand where I am coming from but clearly you do not because you both are now being judge and making comment on something that was none of your business and in doing so are acting like the Pharisees who saw themselves as more righteous than everyone else. Neither of you were addressed in this conversation so if you have nothing to say that actually adds value and you only want to look down on people and pass judgement I ask that you keep that judgement to yourselves.

Ben I tried not to make imy initial comment on this issue about you as an individual, another customer brought you as an individual directly into the comment. But now you have come at me as an individual and have been unfair by taking my comments about FL's actions since you announced this title was in danger of being cancelled and suggested I was talking about FL's actions from the time this, and other titles were added as pre-pubs. You don't have to agree with my views but twisting my words is not an appropriate way to respond to our difference of view.

?????

That's what I'm saying. There was absolutely nothing in Ben's statement that even remotely sounded like a personal attack. It's this type of manufactured outrage that makes me read the forums much anymore. I don't always agree with every decision Faithlife makes, but people get angry when employees don't respond, and then they get angry when they do respond, even when they just give facts. as Ben did in the response above.

I'm glad this set got into production!