Where would a new user start?
I am assuming that all of us are beta testing as existing users of 3.
One of the things that I have been wondering is: Would someone buying version 4 with no prior knowledge of Logos know where to begin with the current interface? What do you guys think?
Comments
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There are several Mac users here, but I think most have experience with v3. I personally ditched v3 completely and only use the Mac 1.0 (flaws and all)
First impression, OVERWHELMED with no idea where to start.
I have made several suggestions to help rectify that, but we will see which ideas were good or useful.0 -
RodneyPrickett said:
I am assuming that all of us are beta testing as existing users of 3.
One of the things that I have been wondering is: Would someone buying version 4 with no prior knowledge of Logos know where to begin with the current interface? What do you guys think?
Wether or not I'd seen 3.0 I'd be overwhelmed because it is not like any application I have ever used. If I'd never seen 3.0 I'd think more highly of it since I wouldn't know how much is missing from this version. Not that I don't think highly of it, but it does loose marks for not having things in 4.0 that I paid for in 3.0.
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Hello Andrew.
How do you know that you have not got some 'things' you paid for(I assume you mean resources/books) in Logos 4 that were in Logos 3? I had the impression that the 30 or so books I have short in V4 will eventually be reinstated when they are 'upgraded' to be compatible. I am sure that someone said this to me earlier on in the blog. Do you know something that I don't on this one?
Tony
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RodneyPrickett said:
Would someone buying version 4 with no prior knowledge of Logos know where to begin with the current interface? What do you guys think?
I think a new user would be completely lost. When you look at the home page, it doesn't look anything like Bible study software. Hopefully, at some point, a new user would notice the very faint words "enter passage or topic" up in the white box by the go button. Presumably the interface is similar to the web so that they would know to press "go." If they entered a passage and clicked "go," they'll find lots of interesting things on that screen.
But where to go next after that? Nothing really tells them how to make another search for a passage, topic, or word. If they like to snoop around in a program and try to figure it out, they'll certainly start to find these things. But many users aren't like that - if it's not clear to them, they get flustered and quit.
So, bottom line, I think v.4 is wonderful for power users, but it is going to need some very clear basic training for new users. Here's my best idea - a short animated or video tutorial of the basics that begins automatically (though it can be cancelled) when the program is installed for the first time. Several other software programs do this, and I've always been thankful for it when I was a brand new user.
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Specifically refer to addins rather than resources, while it has been indicated these will be backat a later date, its still a bit disappointing that they are going to be offline for an unkown time. Yes I can still use them in 3.0 alongside 4.0 but we have no idea when we will see 4.1, 4.2 or whaever version they make their return (I expect Logos doesn't have any defintie dates on those sort of things either, maybe only rough target dates and so don't expect them to give a date ) Also I do feel a bit ripped off that the interlinears are no longer separate resources I don't find the new format helpful and won't be using them much if at all in 4.0.... so I'm being forced over to Georges way of thinking.....but not quite there yet George, I'm still lamenting the situation... In terms of resources I have about 1300 offline at the moment as I was directed to do things this way by Logos but that is not really an issue at this point as one would expect things like that in a beta.
Visual markups in particular were a selling point of 3.0 and a fairly regulary used item for me. I also will particulary miss sentence diagrammer whilte its not there. If the missing features were going to be in a later beta of 4.0 then that would be fine but they are not so I well and truly have my customer's hat on , when it comes to these particular points.
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TimothyLovegrove said:RodneyPrickett said:
Would someone buying version 4 with no prior knowledge of Logos know where to begin with the current interface? What do you guys think?
I think a new user would be completely lost. When you look at the home page, it doesn't look anything like Bible study software. Hopefully, at some point, a new user would notice the very faint words "enter passage or topic" up in the white box by the go button. Presumably the interface is similar to the web so that they would know to press "go." If they entered a passage and clicked "go," they'll find lots of interesting things on that screen.
But where to go next after that? Nothing really tells them how to make another search for a passage, topic, or word. If they like to snoop around in a program and try to figure it out, they'll certainly start to find these things. But many users aren't like that - if it's not clear to them, they get flustered and quit.
So, bottom line, I think v.4 is wonderful for power users, but it is going to need some very clear basic training for new users. Here's my best idea - a short animated or video tutorial of the basics that begins automatically (though it can be cancelled) when the program is installed for the first time. Several other software programs do this, and I've always been thankful for it when I was a brand new user.
I agree and would after the intial things you suggest like windows postioning and layout needs to be focused on as this is an application about resources, one needs to feel in control of positoning and arranging windows and layouts for that matter. These are things I have totally struggled with working out. I did not find it intutitive at all and if this was a program I was not familar with, and was trialling a demo, to be honest I would have ditched it by now.
Once a user has that under their belt they need to understand preferred resources... I am a seasoned user who apprecaited keylinks and resource associations but haven't got there wiith prefered resources at yet... that's my priority for the next day or so, hoping I dont' find too many other interesting things to distract me from that
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In the past, Logos has put out a CD with helpful videos. I am connecting this with that little Microsoft Office guy that pops up for first time users and gives hints when a new feature is used for the first time.
Could v.4 use a feature like this to help guide new users and maybe there could be a little "Help" option to watch a video instead of just reading a text file???0 -
TimothyLovegrove said:
When you look at the home page, it doesn't look anything like Bible study software.
Well, that was our goal. :-)
This feedback is very helpful; we'll also be trying the product out on new users.
The difficult trick is to balance the needs of existing users (many of whom are "power user" -- especially in this beta) and make the product attractive to people who aren't already users, too. I figure that power users will turn off the Home Page and start right up in their last workspace. But we've heard from a lot of users whose biggest question isn't "How do I set up parallel resource associations?" :-), but rather, "I want to spend more time in the Bible. How do I start?"
The (not yet) finished Home Page is our attempt to meet those users closer to where they are, to help them get to the point where they can turn it off. :-)
Our inspiration is the iPhone, which I know is both loved and hated. When I got an iPhone, the first question I had was "where are the photo files? what format are they? How do I manage them and where they're stored?" I also wondered how I could explicitly turn off applications to get better performance, the way I did on my Windows Mobile device.
Of course the iPhone doesn't let you manage your files (which I didn't like until I realized that I didn't care, and it did it well), and you don't turn off running apps because it's only ever running the one you're looking at. That costs something -- you can't have a GPS app running in the background, and if you switch apps there's a penalty to return to the previous one -- but it makes for a great experience all the time, without hidden performance penalties that you have to become an expert user to understand.
(My wife literally could not place a call with my Windows Mobile phone. She does email, calendar, web, and text messaging on her iPhone -- all features I had on my Windows Mobile, and which were useful to me but simply inaccessible to her, since she wasn't willing to be a power user.)
We're definitely going in the iPhone direction with Logos 4. We are listening to your feedback and will do everything we can to make sure you can have an even better experience with 4.0 than with 3.0.
We have all kinds of users, and I expect that some of you will prefer 3.0 forever. (We have users today who prefer Logos 1.6 (1992) and the LLS (1995), and refuse to upgrade.) We know people who still use WordPerfect. (Sorry, Dale! :-) )
And we want the honest feedback you're giving us -- really. This is great.
I hope some testers will step back, though, and try to look at 4.0 with fresh eyes. Try to use it the way it works, rather than the way 3.0 works, and see if that changes how you see it.
For example: We very intentionally put no 3.0 import features into Beta 1. We may actually include some by the time we shipped, but we wanted to "force" everyone to try query based collections instead of importing old manual collections. We wanted to force you to explore the new shortcuts and favorites functions instead of importing your familiar ones. We wanted to see if whole-library searching changed the way you used collections, or if draggable shortcuts changed your use of customizable toolbars. We wanted to see if the (still forthcoming!) built-in-default resource prioritizes reduced the need for setting KeyLinks by data type for most users. We wanted to see if Clippings changed how you use Notes.
We'll have time to add what is really missing from 3.0; this is our only chance, though, to find out what legacy baggage we can leave behind in a way that actually makes the product simpler and easier to use. So I hope that many of you will spend some time in 4.0 "as-is" before putting too much effort into recreating exactly the same configuration / notes / highlights / settings / layouts you had in 3.0.
Thanks for helping us with that, even if it's a bit frustrating! :-) And please keep the feedback coming.
Also, I'm happy to consider your immediate family members as covered under your non-disclosure agreement, assuming you and they agree. If you've got a spouse or child who is not already a Bible software user, I'd love to hear about your experience watching them try to use it.
Thanks!
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HiI really like how easy it is to start studying without messing around with the program
I have really bad dyslexia I have to use speech recognition software to write any of my notes, e-mail
I am definitely getting more out of the Bible text than I ever did with the previous programme[:)]
I'm not a power user,
I am missing the pronunciation tool for the Greek {I like to hear the pronunciation)
This is how I started using the program
Create a reading plan, have the Bible Explorer open and the information window open
and away I go amazing information at my fingertips
I don't know if this is possible but sometimes I may not need to have the information window synchronising all the time
is there a way I could switch this on or off in the toolbar
mick
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I have to agree with you. My wife never uses Logos 3 because she finds it too confusing. She much prefers E-Sword with its simple interface. Logos4 would be even more confusing for her and she wouldn't even give it a chance. Sad, but true.
Personally speaking, I have found it an adjustment. I know what Logos 3 does so I have certain expectations and I find myself wondering how to do what I always did before with ease. Once I learn the new system things are fine. New users won't have to worry about that. Remember how MS Office users complained about the new look and ribbon?
Personally I think there should be a simple mode which has Bible, dictionaries and commentary. Instead of making their own layout new users could chose from set designs and then once they are advanced they can learn how to do it themselves. I think that Logos is becoming the PhotoShop of Bible software. Most people think that PhotoShop is the best photo editing software out there and professionals (always) use it. The average user is happy with Adobe Elements or something else simpler and cheaper (or even free).
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Bob,
Thanks for your excellent explanation of the theories and reasons for doing as you have done. This is a significant departure from 3 and one of the things that I kept saying to people to whom I would recommend 3.0 to was the fact that any idiot could open it know what to do with little searching of help files, which I hate to do when I first fire up a new program.
One of my fears is the comment you made about the "iPhone direction". A phone is something totally different than a PC. Microsoft missed the boat because they didn't realize that and tried to make WinMo like a PC in your hand. I hope you are not making the same mistake going the other way. I love my iPhone by I'd hate it if my PC worked that way.
I think I would love the Home screen if it was what it is now, plus the guides. Also it would be helpful if it was organized or categorized more. Like a column for a bible excerpt, a column for a different devotional, a column that opens to a random commentary, one for Bible dictionary, one for general books, and so on. And taking the iPhone metaphor, a way to swipe form screen to screen using the mouse (mouse gestures) or your finger if you have a touch screen device like a tablet or one of the HP touchsmarts.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
I hope some testers will step back, though, and try to look at 4.0 with fresh eyes. Try to use it the way it works, rather than the way 3.0 works, and see if that changes how you see it.
For example: We very intentionally put no 3.0 import features into Beta 1. We may actually include some by the time we shipped, but we wanted to "force" everyone to try query based collections instead of importing old manual collections. We wanted to force you to explore the new shortcuts and favorites functions instead of importing your familiar ones. We wanted to see if whole-library searching changed the way you used collections, or if draggable shortcuts changed your use of customizable toolbars. We wanted to see if the (still forthcoming!) built-in-default resource prioritizes reduced the need for setting KeyLinks by data type for most users.
I've stepped back a fair bit and I'm still trying to pick myself up! I responded elsewhere (can't search[:(]) to this Q of yours by suggesting Logos provide a few query-built collections to get newcomers going. Whole library search speed has affected my need to have extensive collections in v4, but the Prioritize feature does need a decent design review (see elsewhere for detailed comments) but the hidden builtin defaults for keylinking, parallel associations and serial associations may carry most users for a while. I would caution about sanitising lexicons by stripping them of multiple data types for keylinking eg.retain Original Language and Strong's in the Swanson DBL's as I don't want to be forced to use Strong's Lexicon for Strong's numbers! I see that some fields have already been stripped from some resources eg. GenNote in the NET bible allowed me to search for footnote identifiers. DBL Greek lists two fields in v4 although I can still search on lemma and gloss!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bob Pritchett said:TimothyLovegrove said:
When you look at the home page, it doesn't look anything like Bible study software.
Well, that was our goal. :-)
This feedback is very helpful; we'll also be trying the product out on new users.
Our inspiration is the iPhone, which I know is both loved and hated. When I got an iPhone, the first question I had was "where are the photo files? what format are they? How do I manage them and where they're stored?" I also wondered how I could explicitly turn off applications to get better performance, the way I did on my Windows Mobile device.
We're definitely going in the iPhone direction with Logos 4. We are listening to your feedback and will do everything we can to make sure you can have an even better experience with 4.0 than with 3.0.
iphone... no wonder I don't relate to this.... nothing aginast the iphone cause I've never seen one, let alone used one, or a mobile device for that matter....just don't have the need for anything like that......but my mobile phone, well it lets me make and receive phone calls and send sms, I wouldn't know whether or not it has a calendar and alarm funtion, it has an FM Radio reciever but I never use that cause you need to be wear the headphones to work that and well I never use the headphones....definetely no camera (so don't need to worry about photos), document reader, mp3 player etc. etc... I just need a mobile phone so people can get me when they need to or I can reach them if I need when I not near a landline......my mobile phone may be very plain but it does what I need it to do...
I'm still trying to work out how I can do what I need my bible study software to do with Logos 4.0.....
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TomReynolds said:
Logos4 would be even more confusing for her and she wouldn't even give it a chance. Sad, but true.
Really? Can you try it with her?
Because we thought we'd made 4.0 infinitely easier for new users (though, by definition, confusing to experienced 3.0 users). 3.0 had windows that could hide other windows, put data on miscellaneous fly-out menus off the Tools menu, had a My Library you could lose, offered multiple search dialogs that disappeared before the results showed up, etc. (ugh! what were we thinking? :-) )
Our thought was the 4.0 would offer a lot of "places to start" to new users right away, and that the simple three button interface in the upper left -- home, library, search -- would be easy to understand quickly.
In 4.0 even the Passage Guide is smarter; it auto opens multiple Bibles, opens the first commentary, etc. It seems to be just what you're calling a "set design."
Please, if you get a chance, do have your wife try it, and let me know where she gets lost.
Thanks!
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Bob Pritchett said:
In 4.0 even the Passage Guide is smarter; it auto opens multiple Bibles, opens the first commentary, etc. It seems to be just what you're calling a "set design."
Apologies for jumping in on this one but how does it do that...I have found when I run passage guide it doesn't open any bible for me. I have to go to my libary and manually open a bible and navigate it to that reference if I start with passage guide first..
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Bob Pritchett said:
Thanks for helping us with that, even if it's a bit frustrating! :-) And please keep the feedback coming.
Also, I'm happy to consider your immediate family members as covered under your non-disclosure agreement, assuming you and they agree. If you've got a spouse or child who is not already a Bible software user, I'd love to hear about your experience watching them try to use it.
I'm the type of person who always likes to play with something new and fresh. Therefore I was more then willing, even anxious, to try out software that was completely different from 3.0. Here has been my thought development throughout my testing so far.
initially when I opened the program and started playing around it felt like a stripped down version of 3.0. I'm saying that not because of the user interface but because of the missing addons and features that were not immediately obvious. For instance, where was sentence diagramming, verse list, etc under the Files tab. It felt kinda empty.
As I played I started really liking the layout. realizing that windows floated, layouts were saved, Once I realized that verse lists were not just hidden somewhere obscure but simply was not included in the beta allowed me to move from seeing it as empty to viewing it as clean. Even though I initially loved the reading mode I find myself liking it even more and more as I go along. Rather then continually messing up my window sizes to get more involved with a book I can simply switch to reading mode. Please please please give this feature a keyboard shortcut!
Continued interaction found me absolutely loving collections. Had I not been prejudiced by 3.0's method I think I would have picked up what was going on right away. Collection management, including the ability to tag and mark favorites, is a big leap forward for the ease of the software in my opinion. Having dynamic collections really simplifies the process of adding resources to the library as I no longer have to think "what collections do I need to put this in so I don't loose it."
Continued interaction
also found me not loving so much the prioritization. I like minutia control. the prioritized list makes me feel like my options are 1,2,3,4 etc. I prefer 1, 1.a, 1.b, 1.c, 2.a, 2.b.3.r.w.s.f, etc. If you make the prioritized list more visually discernible (e.g. different colors for different resources) and filterable (e.g. allow me to filter the list using the same syntax as a collection) it might grow a bit on me but as of right now I feel very little control with the current prioritized list. If you could make a way for 1,2,3,4 to be sufficient but 1.a, 1.b, 2.a, 2.b to be possible I think you would be closer to the Iphone feel which I view as great on the surface, greater under the hood.I continue to be amazed at how simple it initially looked to me yet how in depth it is for those interested in looking and using creativity. the only missing feature that I am overly concerned about right now is the importing of 3.0 highlighting and notes. I truly hope either this is in the initial 4.0 release or following in an update within 2-3 months. I would rather you focus on getting the platform right now and the additional features to match later. I am willing to miss the verse list temporarily in order to divorce the software from IE.
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Andrew,
I think you'll find this is a reference to running the passage guide from the home page.
Whether there is a benefit to this before preferences are set is debatable. Mine opened the one bible I set from the home page and then the ASV followed by three foreign language bibles. The commentary was from the Ancient Christian Commentary series.
I'm more and more convinced of the need for an installation or first-run dialogue allowing for the setting of some of these preferences.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Please, if you get a chance, do have your wife try it, and let me know where she gets lost
I have a church with people who have no interest in Bible software but love Bible study. If I didn't tell them what they were looking at (e.g. a secret beta) they would have no idea and wouldn't know how to describe what they were seeing if they did. My wife has used 3.0 and would be of the mindset "I already know how to use Logos, i don't want to relearn it.", but they would have no experience at all with it. If at some point you want me to try a beta out on them let me know.
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Bob,
I think I understand what you are getting at. I think I also understand the frustration of some who thought 4.0 would be a souped-up 3.0.
One suggestion I would have, as a new DVD installed user (about an hour ago):
Provide some simple instructions on how to do some basic helpful things. I know you want beta users to "play around" with the software to find out what is useful, easy to find, etc. But the problem from my end is that there is no easy place to begin.
Let me use your iPhone analogy. One of the best things Apple did was to set up very brief, screenshot and word (NOT videos, even short ones) that show "How To" do basic things. Not the super complex things, but basic things. That allowed may to get "comfortable" with the OS and features, and begin to fish around for more things. It spawned more exploration. As I look at 4.0, I'm not sure where to begin. It would help to have some starting points. To continue the analogy - just knowing something is possible, without knowing how, is even MORE frustrating than not having a feature. I was incredibly annoyed with iPhone OS 3.1 when Apple gave a one-line comment about being able to use Voice Control with a bluetooth device, and gave absolutely no idea how to do it. I tried for a couple of minutes to find an intuitive way to make it work, and then gave up in frustration because Apple should have told me. Dozens of people agreed (at least their posts in Apple's forums said so).
So I think it would be a big help to have a couple of basic features basically described and let that start the experience.
EDIT:
The thread on infographics is a good example of this. I would have NO idea about this (potentially) useful feature without Bob's post.
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA, Katy, TX
Windows 10 64-bit; Logos 7.1 SR-2 (Reformed Platinum)0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
I hope some testers will step back, though, and try to look at 4.0 with fresh eyes. Try to use it the way it works, rather than the way 3.0 works, and see if that changes how you see it.
Bob,
Thank-you so much for the explanation of some of the thought patterns behind this new release. It certainly helped to re-focus my testing. I will say that this type of explanatory definition would be very helpful in testing any new area of the software. Other software vendors that I Beta-test always provide a full "Release Definition" document to it's testers before installing the software. This helps us get our heads around some of the philosophies used in the new release. We still gripe about missing features, etc ... but it really helps focus us so we don't try to undo everything you are trying to do.
I was having a very hard time liking a lot of things in the new layout...hoping I would eventually figure out "how to do what I used to do." Your explanation makes perfect sense, and has given me the kick in the pants I needed to look at the software with fresh eyes ... and really begin to see the potential.
Just make sure you leave in enough tweaking access for power-user flexibility.
Thanks again,
PS - I am missing the text markup and notes.
Laptop:Vista Business SP2 32-bit OS / Intel Duo Core P8400@2.26Ghz / 3-Gigs RAM
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Bob,
One more example (that would really be helpful to me): what is a "query based collection" ? I have no idea. Can't find it in the help, and even though there might be a thread in the forum, it probably can't be found.
I'd love to give that a whirl, and see how useful it is (compare to 3.0 type collections). I actually partial to a new method of collections, since I don't use the current 3.0 collections much. But again, I don't know where to start.
(If you help me, I'll really work at it for you!) [;)]
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA, Katy, TX
Windows 10 64-bit; Logos 7.1 SR-2 (Reformed Platinum)0 -
Fred Greco said:
what is a "query based collection" ?
Sorry -- that's just my description of the new collections in contrast to the old ones. It's just Tools | Collections; they happen to be built more by queries than manually.
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I never really got into the 3.0 tools. To me, they were just a jumble of disconnected tools thrown together as good ideas came along.
Someone said, hey, lets give people the ability to diagram sentences... new tool
Let's do something with looking up bibliographies... new tool.
Lets make puzzles.. new tool.
Verb river... useless tool.
etc..
etc..
But there was no real integration.
When Mac 1.0 came along, I quite honestly was glad to be done with all the 3.0 clutter.
I like 4.0 much better, for reasons I have written about in several places.
So I am thinking that the difference may be in learning styles of different people. Logos 3 appeals to one kind of learning style, v.4 to another?
Maybe not, but that is my impression at this time.
I have already shared above what I feel are the shortcomings of the interface to new users, so I wont repeat that.
In short though, I like the direction of v4.0 -
Jacob Carpenter said:
F11 = Reading mode
Singing..."You make me so....very happy. I'm so glad you...came into my life...."
Thanks [:)]
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Well Bob I am happy to say I did get my DVD today and have been busy getting started. Yes the new Home page is overwhelming at first glance but I think I like the direction you are heading. The only question is will v4 be able to import my Journal file I created on v3. It has lots of links to various verses that I do want to keep. Or have you folks come up with something better that I haven't had to to explore
.BTW: I know its been mentioned but the autorun didn't work for me either. Minor hiccup and will be quickly wied from memory as I get into digging. Thanks to you and the entire Logos team for being such a blessing.
In Christ,
Ken
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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Because we thought we'd made 4.0 infinitely easier for new users (though, by definition, confusing to experienced 3.0 users). 3.0 had windows that could hide other windows, put data on miscellaneous fly-out menus off the Tools menu, had a My Library you could lose, offered multiple search dialogs that disappeared before the results showed up, etc. (ugh! what were we thinking? :-) )
Bob,
So glad to hear you say this because I have found the new edition to be confusing. I was expecting 4.0 to be an extension of 3.0 but instead it feels more like an Apple application in a windows shell. I had thought this and wanted to say it, but then when I read your reference to the iphone I said ok I was right. I think then the genius of the new format is that without dumbing down the content you are bringing the user up to a greater level of indepth bible study.
I have to confess that I like how some of the features work in 3.0 and miss some of them. Maybe after the learning curve in 4.0 is vaulted I will have a greater level of confidence in the new approach. Right now I'm struggling.
I put the new beta on my wife's laptop tonight. She is a complete newbie. I will let you know her reactions.
God bless,
Pastor Chris McFarland0 -
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That's a good idea. We are planning to do a welcome video.0
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DamianMcGrath said:
I think you'll find this is a reference to running the passage guide from the home page.
Thanks Damian.....
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cool. It occurred to me that every time Microsoft comes out with a new OS, they always have the intro videos on new features that help first time users, lean how to run it. That is what v4 needs. A slick intro with some options to learn for first time users. I personally feel like I would benefit from it!!!!0
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Welcome videos are good but I also recommend training videos too.
I did not start to use v3 effectively until I had gone through all the training videos that became available online. Up to that point I had not used any Bible program software so it was new to me, but I knew it had great potential. I was almost about to give up when I discovered the training videos.
I strongly recommend having training videos (online or otherwise) to help the new starter because the software is too complicated without a basic knowledge of what it can do and more importantly how the features can be used in the real world.
After all the objective is to dig deep into the Word of God to gain understanding, not to dable / play on computers.
You may have guessed, I don't play games on my computer. It is a tool and a great slave, but a tyranical master to work for! [:D]
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Honestly I did not fully understand how to use 3.0 until Mo Proctor broke it down for me. While I think the world of him, I was hoping that 4.0 would not need as much step by step training.
I WANT Logos to be used by the masses, but I think in order for that to happen, SOMETHING is still missing at start-up.
Comparison has been made to I-Phone. Am I right that the visual side of interfacing with I-phone is ICONS? If we are looking to be intuitive for new users, where does this fit?
One last thing related to getting Logos out there. Why has my local Lifeway stopped carrying anything but a few LifeWork Collection? They have no base packages. I know that is off topic, but in my mindt these issues all work together, if the desire is to increase the number of users.
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I will definitely take my wife who never used 3.0 and place her in my chair for a bit. (If my DVD ever gets here).Bob Pritchett said:Also, I'm happy to consider your immediate family members as covered under your non-disclosure agreement, assuming you and they agree. If you've got a spouse or child who is not already a Bible software user, I'd love to hear about your experience watching them try to use it.
Thanks!
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Overall I am finding version 4 much easier than 3. It took a long time (like years) to figure out some of the features in versions 2 and 3.
My biggest frustration in version 4 is not being able to do some of the things I did regularly in version 3 - That aside coming from version 1 to 2 was far more intimidating than from 3 to 4 for me.
My biggest hurdle with version 4 was "what do I do with this homepage" To me the homepage should be a place to lead you into what ever you are opening the program to do (study, read, etc.). it should be simple and informative - The home page looks nice, but is overwhelming (My eyes still don't know where to look).
Some simple non technical options would make more sense to me: Read a Book (takes you to your library to select a book - remembers the last book you were reading) - Start a study (opens either as exegetical or passage guide or word study - remembers your last study) - Be Encouraged (takes you to your daily reading with devotionals, etc.) Read the News (takes you to the current "home page")
You could take up most of the screen with these 4 simple items with a pleasing graphic to go with each one. This way the homepage would be a helpful part of the program, something that leads you into your task.
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A couple more ideas for making the program more user friendly to new users.
I often recommend logos to people in my church and every single person that I have recommended it too no longer uses it. I have recommended it to other clergy, missionaries etc. who have appreciated it, but not so much the average Christian.
From talking to ones that have tried it and given up, the main reason seems to be "its to technical" - Words like lemma, morphology, etc. make many people think "this is over my head".
What if in V4 there was a beginner mode that you could select on your home page. In this mode there would be tool tips that would show up briefly in certain situations. For example when you open a bible with an interlinear - a tool tip would come up pointing to where the interlinear toggle is, and a brief explanation of its functions.
Once the interlinear is open a tool tip would appear over it telling you how clicking on a word in the bible will correspond to the highlighted word in the interlinear. It would also tell you how to turn on or off parts of the interlinear.
When you mouse over the words MSS, Lemma, Morh, etc. The brief simple definition that is in the help file would come up in a tool tip.
There is already a little bit of this in V4 (for example mousing over the top bar initiates a tool tip stating "drag recourses or tabs here to create shortcuts" This would take it to another level.
This would make it so you do not have to watch a video, or read a tutorial to get going - no matter what level user you are the software would walk you through your task as you learn the ropes of the new software.0 -
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-->Bob Pritchett said:we thought we'd made 4.0 infinitely easier for new users (though, by
definition, confusing to experienced 3.0 users).Our thought was the 4.0 would offer a lot of "places to start" to new
users right away, and that the simple three button interface in the upper left
-- home, library, search -- would be easy to understand quickly.Please, if you get a chance, do have your wife try it, and let me know where
she gets lost.Bob, my wife spent about 30 minutes with v.4 last
night. She has a fairly good grasp of basic Bible study (has a Bible college
degree, uses a commentary each day in her Bible reading). She is no techie, but
she does use the computer quite a bit. She has never used any Bible software.I tried not to give her any preconceptions about the
program. I just asked her to think of some ways Bible study software might be
useful for her (commentaries, word meanings, looking up historical things
mentioned in the Bible), and then I watched as she started playing around with
v.4. She's reading in II Peter right now, so she had some things from II Peter
3 she could try to look up.First
steps - the big buttons When she was looking at the home page, I asked
"What do you think is on this page?" She said "Stuff they want
me to buy. It looks like a page from a CBD (Christian Book Distributors)
catalog."Then she went up to the top of the page and moused
over the library and search buttons. She clicked "library," but was
completely baffled by the pop-down box with the first few books in the library
listed. She had no idea how that would be helpful for her, so she moved on.I think it's extremely important to note that neither the library nor search icons were any help to her. Basic, Bible, morph, syntax? That stuff meant nothing to her, and she couldn't figure out how to find what she needed in either one. So I think this is a big problem - the two most obvious places to go, the two biggest buttons, may need some more work to be helpful for non-power-users.
So after giving up on both of those, she looked briefly at the file, guides, and tools
drop-downs. You could tell she was seeing some things that might be helpful,
but I was fascinated that she chose to keep going and mouse over the resource
shortcuts I had placed on the toolbar. That's where she first opened a Bible
and looked up II Peter 3.Trying
to find helpful information She eventually did try
out one of the guides, and started to make some progress with that. One of the
major things I noticed was that she had a very hard time figuring out the tabs
and windows. It seems to me that you have intentionally shrunk the navigation
elements to leave as much room as possible for the actual workspaces. But the
navigation elements are so small that she never even noticed them.Examples: she did not notice the tabs that showed
her the name of the current resource, and allowed her to switch back and forth.
She is used to using a tabbed browser, so in theory she should have been able
to figure it out. But she said the tabs were so small and the colors so similar
that it didn't catch her attention at all. Other elements, like the
"x" for closing the window, were hard for her to find. There was no
way she was going to find the little marker on the vertical scroll bar - it was
way too faint. I could tell she didn't even know it was there - she kept using
the mouse wheel to scroll up and down. Even the different sections in the guide
were separated from one another in such subtle ways that she really didn't
notice the different sections.Typing a topic in the "go" box on the home
page was not helpful at all. It brought up a large list of library search
results, and she quickly gave up. She was trying to find info on the Nicolaitans.
With a bit of help from me, she did find the "biblical people" guide.One thing that was very useful for her was the
information that popped up on a mouse-over. She depended on this, almost to an
extreme (she wouldn't click and open the resource - just read whatever was in
the popup).Trying
v.3 Then
I showed her v.3. Again, I tried not to give her any preconceptions. I just
asked her thoughts on that interface, compared to the v.4 interface. She
immediately said "Oh, this is much simpler," and started playing
around much more quickly and confidently.After we were done, I asked her to rate her
experience with v.4 on a scale of 1-10. She gave it a surprisingly high score -
7 or 8. I asked why, and she said "There was a lot of information there.
It was just hard to get to." She gave the home page a much lower score,
and obviously felt the v.3 interface was more conducive.So is v.4 "infinitely easier for new
users"? Maybe once they've had some coaching and training on the basics. But
from my wife's perspective, v.3 was definitely easier for getting started.I'm trying to be helpful for you!!
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I just did something that Timothy Lovegrove did. Instead of my wife I put my 15 year old son who is not a Bible software user at all. He has used e-sword when we were homeschooling him, but not a lot and probably doesn't even remember much of it.
I asked him to study John 3:16 and learn more about it using this new Bible software I have.
First thing he did was look at the screen with a glassy look, like "huh?" But then he did what I expected. He right for the search box on the toolbar without me prompting him. He entered John 3:16 and it a quick search finding a bunch of references to John 3:16 in the results. He looked at the list and being a neophyte had no idea what to do with it. I helped him and said, "Did you hit a dead end?" Yes. "Start over."
This time he got it right and typed in the box below the Logos logo and got a lot. But he still didn't know what to do with it.
My point is that if you are trying to make it easier for the new user, you have a way to go. Might I add a suggestion. A simple sentence above the GO box saying "Type bible references here". In the Search box put something that says, "Search for words and phrases here."
Second, in the reulting window, what if, when I moue over the word Commentaries in the resulting list, it gave me a popup describing what a commentary is. Same for each of the other ones. Now power users would want to turn this off, but to make 4.0 more friendly to the new user, this would help hold their hand while they are learning. It would also help them learn how to not only use Logos but how to study the bible as well.
I have lots of complaints, but also want to be constructive in my criticism.
Oh, and the mac like interface is not as glaringly ugly to me after a few days.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Thanks! I really appreciate the reports from testing with totally new users!0
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TimothyLovegrove said:
After we were done, I asked her to rate her
experience with v.4 on a scale of 1-10. She gave it a surprisingly high score -
7 or 8. I asked why, and she said "There was a lot of information there.
It was just hard to get to." She gave the home page a much lower score,
and obviously felt the v.3 interface was more conducive.So is v.4 "infinitely easier for new
users"? Maybe once they've had some coaching and training on the basics. But
from my wife's perspective, v.3 was definitely easier for getting started.I'm trying to be helpful for you!!
Thanks for this. I am not surprise by the outcome & the Logos 3 Home page.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Ted Hans said:TimothyLovegrove said:
After we were done, I asked her to rate her experience with v.4 on a scale of 1-10. She gave it a surprisingly high score - 7 or 8. I asked why, and she said "There was a lot of information there. It was just hard to get to." She gave the home page a much lower score, and obviously felt the v.3 interface was more conducive.
So is v.4 "infinitely easier for new users"? Maybe once they've had some coaching and training on the basics. But from my wife's perspective, v.3 was definitely easier for getting started.
I'm trying to be helpful for you!!
Thanks for this. I am not surprise by the outcome & the Logos 3 Home page.
Ted
Thanks TImothy and Kevin, this is what I would have expected also but was not sure if my experience as a user of LL2.0 and LBX 1.0 - 3.0 (along with lots of other bible software - most noteably Quick Verse 3.0 - 7.0) was clouding my judgement.
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Bob Pritchett said:TimothyLovegrove said:
When you look at the home page, it doesn't look anything like Bible study software.
Well, that was our goal. :-)
I would question whether it should have been your goal.
Whether a person is a new user or upgrading from 3.0, we're expecting Bible study software when we start Logos. We're also expecting the interface to be somewhat familiar. The more different it is to things we already know, the more effort we have to put in to learning it and the more likely it is that we'll miss functionality that's there but not so obvious (or give up and buy the opposition's work / stick to 3.0 or paper).
My suggestion would be to make the goal be to have Logos be easy to learn for the beginner or the 'expert'. The interface should be intuitive above all - after all, we're using your software because we want to read books, write sermons and so on and not (usually) because we want to play with the software for its own sake.
Perhaps you could do 'skins' so that 4.0 can look more like 3.0 or more like it's current form. I like the suggestion of different modes (beginner/expert..), too.
In His service,
Nigel
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I am very pleased to be a part of this group, (and I have had no download or indexing problems) but I feel as if I have one hand tied behind my back. Bob, are these "non Bible study people" all going to be versed in command line programming? I'll admit that I missed that lesson back in DOS days. Without specific "how-to" info the new library priority/rating system still makes no sense. (There have been a few helpful suggestions on the forums but they are very hard to find) and on my machine the "draggable" short-cuts are hit-and-miss or glacially slow. If I (as a fairly advanced "Association-collections-keylinks-toolbar" type) person is having trouble making "head-or-tails' of this new approach how is the new "non-Bible study" person to persevere? Or are they just expected to stop at the passage guides? I admit that I am also busy writing sermons and Bible studies and that limits learning time. But I just feel that I can't find or access or "get-at" a lot of my (expensive) resources. New people may find the "news page" interesting but I really wonder if they will be very motivated to buy new resources?
(I will be consulting the help guide - I also don't know if the sluggishness is due to the interminable indexing or if this older P4 2.2 gig machine just can't "cut it.)
Keeping up with ALL the forum posts but already feeling the pressure to get this weeks sermon done.
Thanks, Steve
Regards, SteveF
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"Where would a newbie start?" is a very good question. A corollary is, "Would Newbie continue once he found the starting point?" As someone mentioned earlier, Logos is definitely designed for serious study and concepts like morphology, syntax, lemma, etc. are daunting intimidations to many who want the speed and ease of good Bible software but just haven't had the opportunity to attend Seminary or BCollege.
Logos has sort of addressed this dilemma by pre-packaging various collections of Resources - but always with the same engine.
Maybe the one-size-fits-all-engine is what needs to be rethought.
Perhaps, Logos should look at the wildly successful and ubiquitous Adobe Acrobat model. In other words, offer a very simple, easy to understand Reader which has just the most basic of tools. No Greek or Hebrew capabilities. Lots of eye candy. It would be easy for the casual or non-technical student to get their arms around and get involved in some productive Bible study. But then, just as Adobe has the full featured Acrobat software, publish the full blown L4 for the advanced student.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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The New User and the default English dictionary.
This won't happen to someone with a base package I suppose because they won't have as many resources to choose from but when I first started Logos4 the default English dictionary was Collins Latin Dictionary! How would a new user go about fixing that? I decided they would find an English dictionary in their library and give it five stars. So I faithfully found MW 11th ed and gave it five stars. The results are in and they are puzzling.
It now defaults to MW 10th ed for some English words. Not sure why it is going with 10 instead of 11. BUT when I click on "Savior" or "Thessalonians" or "withhold" or "situation" it goes with BDAG! If I click on "prophet" it takes me to "prophetess" in ISBE 1915 (this dict is quite popular with many words). If I click on "Christ" or "body," etc. it takes me to Yale Anchor. "millennial" takes me to Concise Dictionary of Christian Theology. If I click on "shall" or "phrase" I go back to Collins Latin D. The WINNER for confusion was clicking on "sexual" in 1 Cor 7:2 in the LEB. It took me to "diaspora" in the Dictionary of the Later NT and Its Developments.
It's also spinning around in Not Responding land and throwing these errors, although this may be the Power Lookup tab:
2009-09-15 23:38:41.8940 27 Error RichTextReference Could not load reference: bible+bhs.44.4.10
2009-09-15 23:38:41.8940 27 Error RichTextReference Could not load reference: bible+bhs.44.23.1
2009-09-15 23:38:41.8940 27 Error RichTextReference Could not load reference: bible+bhs.44.23.4
2009-09-15 23:38:41.8940 27 Error RichTextReference Could not load reference: bible+bhs.44.51.10
2009-09-15 23:38:41.8940 27 Error RichTextReference Could not load reference: tdnt.8.359-60All this to say a new user will be totally confused about simply clicking on an English word and expecting a definition. Starring the MW11 ed seems to have done nothing to fix the problem. What would a new user try next? How about the Help utility...won't find much help on this issue there. How about phoning Logos customer support and asking them.
Tom
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TomReynolds said:
The WINNER for confusion was clicking on "sexual" in 1 Cor 7:2 in the LEB. It took me to "diaspora" in the Dictionary of the Later NT and Its Developments.
You really did take the program out for a whirl!
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Bob Pritchett said:
Our thought was the 4.0 would offer a lot of "places to start" to new users right away, and that the simple three button interface in the upper left -- home, library, search -- would be easy to understand quickly.
In 4.0 even the Passage Guide is smarter; it auto opens multiple Bibles, opens the first commentary, etc. It seems to be just what you're calling a "set design."
Please, if you get a chance, do have your wife try it, and let me know where she gets lost.
Bob,
even though you were addressing Tom, I'd like to chime in if I may.
I'm a tinkerer and a "semi-power-user," I format my machines at least once a year, I keep close track of my files, I'm a "partition head" sort of person...and I did step back a bit and tried to get myself to see the logic of V4.
My impression is that it's a good piece of software. It's NOT like v3; things are done differently, it's a little like getting used to the "new management" who want to do things differently and everyone grumbles because "we've never done it that way"
I have warmed up to v4 and I really like it; there are many features that I've come to like. Having said that; my wife is NOT a power user...she's in the "other" catagory; "I just wanna do my bible study and not mess around"
So my wife and I were sitting at the dinner table and I got her to dive into it and she was impressed. As I said; she is not a tech head, she is in your "non power user" category...she just wants to type a passage in, get all the relevant info and go from there. Right click words; do BWS etc.
So the one thing that really needs to be implemented is what Damian suggested: the "first time user dialogue box" thing....a person like my wife WOULD NEVER figure out what we've been figuring out about setting priorities!
When a first time user fires the app up, he/she should see something like the following to make the setup painless...first impressions are important! If the software isn't set up right...the results will be wrong, and the user will become disenchanted, and tell his /her friends that E-sword was better...not realizing any of the nuances that power users know...
this whole thing should take 10 minutes or less and set all the important things; preferred resources, home page yes or no, whatever...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Bob Pritchett said:
Our thought was the 4.0 would offer a lot of "places to start" to new users right away, and that the simple three button interface in the upper left -- home, library, search -- would be easy to understand quickly.
Please, if you get a chance, do have your wife (daughter) try it, and let me know where she gets lost.
Thanks!
Bob,
I had my 14 yr-old daughter to try v4 and here are both her words and my impressions in watching her.
- Daughter: "What do I do"? My response: "Just look around and get familiar with the program." After a couple minutes she just was so focused on the Home Page that the three icons weren't enough to help her get started.
- I ask my daughter to "play" with the program searching for things to click on that would help her. She clicks on the search icon (with a little guidance from me) and types in "David and Goliath". Because my search had already been used it was preset to "All Passages in NASB95". She didn't know how to set up the preferences to include the whole library.
- By now, her interest in the program has waned because there wasn't much success. I then showed her what could be done (with me all excited and she showing no excitement).
I love the program...she was disinterested after no initial success. I truly think Tom Reynold's suggestion for a couple of predefined "study templates". One example: an initial Bible translation with an easy option to change it to another translation from within that window pane; a commentary - also able to easily change to another; a bible dictionary - able to change; an encyclopedic dictionary - able to change; corresponding maps/graphics. Another example might focus on a word study so they open a "word study template" with certain resources automatically opened. Having all this access from the Home Page - would be a more helpful - IMHO - to get someone started like Tom's wife or my daughter.
Mitch
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.franklinchurchofchrist.com0 -
TomReynolds said:
The New User and the default English dictionary.
The default list of "KeyLink destinations" (as we used to call them in LDLS3) is completely unordered in Logos 4 Beta 2. (It may be alphabetical, it may be in order of internal resource ID, it may be the order in which you discovered the resources; I don't know.) A more sensible default ordering will be established in an upcoming beta.
We'll also be correcting resource metadata to stop Latin dictionaries and Greek lexicons being used as destinations for English words.
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Mitch Davis said:
I had my 14 yr-old daughter to try v4 and here are both her words and my impressions in watching her.
I also had a co-worker test done:
I put him in front of the home page and asked him what he thought he should do with it...and his answer?
"I guess it's like a newspaper....do i just read it or can I do other things?"
so I typed a reference in the box, and showed him what else it did and he said that he'd rather have some helps at the beginning so he at least can get going...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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