Sermon Published without my permission
I woke up this morning to find that whilst I was asleep my unfinished sermon was published to soundfaith without my permission. I was asleep at the time and so I know there's nothing I did. I have also never used soundfaith before.
Comments
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There's a check box at the bottom of the Sermon header information to pubilish it automatically to Soundfaith. I think this was new in 7.5. I make sure it's unchecked every time, as it somehow got checked on one occasion. I suspect if you check your Sermon document you'll find this box is checked.
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Thanks Greg.
Shouldn't be that easy, I think a button would be more appropriate. It's like one of those opt in email things.
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Sean McIntyre said:
Shouldn't be that easy
I agree... mostly. It should be that easy for those who want it to be so, but it should be an OPT IN and NO ACTION should be required on the part of those who don't want to participate.
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Thanks for the feedback.
Unchecking the checkbox sets a preference that will apply to all future Sermon Editor documents. In other words, you only need to uncheck it once.
Additionally, the sermon that was published can be deleted by updating the publish state on soundfaith.com
My apologies for the unexpected behavior, we definitely want to leave control of your content up to you.
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I echo Alabama's suggestion. It should require opting in, although the current behavior is the next best thing. Also, since the website seems to use the sermons as a selling point for its premium service, I'd suggest that Faithlife be careful about these sorts of issues.
Unlimited access to an ever-growing library of practical tools for sermon prep, including sermons from other pastors, text illustrations, and over 6,000 motions and stills for only $19.99/month!'0 -
Scott Alexander said:
Unchecking the checkbox sets a preference that will apply to all future Sermon Editor documents. In other words, you only need to uncheck it once.
This doesn't seem to be how it works for me.
On the left is a sermon document I was working on yesterday and - as you can see the publish box is unchecked. On the right is a sermon document I have just opened and publish box is checked
I am running 7.6 beta 1 but believe I saw the same behaviour on the stable 7.5 release
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Graham, I'm not able to reproduce this behavior.
The checkbox remembers the last explicit value choice. (Which can be different from the value from your last sermon, say if you check it, and then delete that sermon.)
Are you sure the last choice you made was to uncheck it, and then a new sermon started with it checked?
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Jacob and Scott
Why cant the default be that the box is unchecked, and if one wants to opt in, they have the option to check the box and up in?
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Mark said:
Jacob and Scott
Why cant the default be that the box is unchecked, and if one wants to opt in, they have the option to check the box and up in?
Mark, there was much discussion internally around this change. SoundFaith has proven itself to be a valuable sermon archiving resource and its integration with Sermon Editor makes it possible to utilize without any extra work. Most people won’t change the defaults and we really want people to get to use this feature. However, we understand it’s not for everyone and so we send a notification email after the first auto-publish event, ensuring that everyone knows about the change.
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Scott Alexander said:
Mark, there was much discussion internally around this change. SoundFaith has proven itself to be a valuable sermon archiving resource and its integration with Sermon Editor makes it possible to utilize without any extra work. Most people won’t change the defaults and we really want people to get to use this feature. However, we understand it’s not for everyone and so we send a notification email after the first auto-publish event, ensuring that everyone knows about the change.
I compared it to an email opt-in vs opt-out box for a reason. It is always very irritating to the customer. Giving us a choice means that you will have to work a little harder to promote and educate about the product but is more respectful to the customer.
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Scott Alexander said:Mark said:
Jacob and Scott
Why cant the default be that the box is unchecked, and if one wants to opt in, they have the option to check the box and up in?
Mark, there was much discussion internally around this change. SoundFaith has proven itself to be a valuable sermon archiving resource and its integration with Sermon Editor makes it possible to utilize without any extra work. Most people won’t change the defaults and we really want people to get to use this feature. However, we understand it’s not for everyone and so we send a notification email after the first auto-publish event, ensuring that everyone knows about the change.
Thank you for the context, Scott! That's helpful to know. The OP pointed out that he hadn't even finished the sermon that got published without his knowledge. I'm sure he won't be the only one to whom this happens, given the current functionality. SoundFaith could end up with numerous unfinished documents that will frustrate not only the authors, but those who come to SoundFaith for the content. Given the fact that the simple publish checkbox is on the same window as the rest of the basic sermon info, it only takes a fraction of a second to select it for publication. I would greatly prefer the checkbox to be blank for each new document, so that a momentary, yet conscious, decision is required for publication. And someone who chooses to publish one sermon won't find the next one he starts gets unintentionally published simply because he forgot to "uncheck" the saved publish setting.
That change could help maintain the integrity of the content quality on SoundFaith, minimize frustration for Sermon Editor users, and help reduce some trepidation among those who are looking forward to trying the Sermon Editor for the first time. And that can be done with no major inconvenience for Sermon Editor users who wish to publish everything.
Thanks for your consideration.
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It would also pose issues related to coptright. If I am using a sermon this week originally written by a third party and borrowed (legally) from another source, having it published without the consent of the original author might leave Faithlife or SoundFaith open to a lawsuit.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Are you sure the last choice you made was to uncheck it, and then a new sermon started with it checked?
Fairly sure - but I can't reproduce it now either. I'll keep an eye on it
Thanks Jacob
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Mine published too, but the Scripture references don't show. The sermon is in Spanish so that may have something to do with it!
DAL
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This thread encouraged me to check my soundfaith....
I noticed the publish tick and before I started writing the sermon, made sure it was unchecked. But still it was published...albeit draft...multiple times. If it's unchecked, it should never go any place except my own documents...even in draft state.
This bothers me for some reason. I feel strongly that my data is trusted to stay in one place. And, is logos profiting off of the intellectual work of their users? Did user agreement change regarding my data? Will other data be shared on other sites that I will have to police to make sure it's not published?
If I delete from soundfaith on that website, does it delete on documents.logos.com?
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Scott Alexander said:
Mark, there was much discussion internally around this change. SoundFaith has proven itself to be a valuable sermon archiving resource and its integration with Sermon Editor makes it possible to utilize without any extra work. Most people won’t change the defaults and we really want people to get to use this feature. However, we understand it’s not for everyone and so we send a notification email after the first auto-publish event, ensuring that everyone knows about the change.
This approach makes sense if it's limited to cloud-based backup of my sermons (what most people thinking of as "archiving"). It's very disturbing to me if it extends to making a sermon publically available. Archiving by default can provide an extra layer of security. Publishing or distributing without explicit permission is a very different matter.
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[Y]
Brad said:Scott Alexander said:Mark said:Jacob and Scott
Why cant the default be that the box is unchecked, and if one wants to opt in, they have the option to check the box and up in?
Mark, there was much discussion internally around this change. SoundFaith has proven itself to be a valuable sermon archiving resource and its integration with Sermon Editor makes it possible to utilize without any extra work. Most people won’t change the defaults and we really want people to get to use this feature. However, we understand it’s not for everyone and so we send a notification email after the first auto-publish event, ensuring that everyone knows about the change.
Thank you for the context, Scott! That's helpful to know. The OP pointed out that he hadn't even finished the sermon that got published without his knowledge. I'm sure he won't be the only one to whom this happens, given the current functionality. SoundFaith could end up with numerous unfinished documents that will frustrate not only the authors, but those who come to SoundFaith for the content. Given the fact that the simple publish checkbox is on the same window as the rest of the basic sermon info, it only takes a fraction of a second to select it for publication. I would greatly prefer the checkbox to be blank for each new document, so that a momentary, yet conscious, decision is required for publication. And someone who chooses to publish one sermon won't find the next one he starts gets unintentionally published simply because he forgot to "uncheck" the saved publish setting.
That change could help maintain the integrity of the content quality on SoundFaith, minimize frustration for Sermon Editor users, and help reduce some trepidation among those who are looking forward to trying the Sermon Editor for the first time. And that can be done with no major inconvenience for Sermon Editor users who wish to publish everything.
Thanks for your consideration.
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DAL said:
Mine published too, but the Scripture references don't show. The sermon is in Spanish so that may have something to do with it!
DAL
Thanks for the report DAL, we'll take a look.
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John Fugh, Jr. said:
This thread encouraged me to check my soundfaith....
I noticed the publish tick and before I started writing the sermon, made sure it was unchecked. But still it was published...albeit draft...multiple times. If it's unchecked, it should never go any place except my own documents...even in draft state.
This bothers me for some reason. I feel strongly that my data is trusted to stay in one place. And, is logos profiting off of the intellectual work of their users? Did user agreement change regarding my data? Will other data be shared on other sites that I will have to police to make sure it's not published?
If I delete from soundfaith on that website, does it delete on documents.logos.com?
John, are you using Proclaim? When you send your sermon to Proclaim we automatically create a sermon document in draft mode on SoundFaith.com. The draft sermon is only visible to your account. We do this so when/if you publish your audio recording from Proclaim to SoundFaith the Sermon Editor metadata is preserved and updated, instead of overwritten.
More information about sermon audio recording and publishing in Proclaim can be found here.
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Brad, the date field in the auto-publish setting is designed to prevent auto-publishing prior to a sermon completion.Brad said:The OP pointed out that he hadn't even finished the sermon that got published without his knowledge. I'm sure he won't be the only one to whom this happens, given the current functionality. SoundFaith could end up with numerous unfinished documents that will frustrate not only the authors, but those who come to SoundFaith for the content.
On new documents this value defaults to the upcoming Sunday but you can set it to whatever you like. If that doesn't complement your workflow you can uncheck the auto-publish setting and publish manually when you're ready, using the Export > Post to SoundFaith option.
Thanks for the feedback!
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I have no interest in being negative. Please understand that. I want to see the success of the Sermon app. But I have not used it and this thread makes me not want to use it because I do not feel enough has been done to ensure the privacy of my notes and sermon write ups and ideas. I would love to use the tool to see how it can help me. But I am not interested in the kinds of glitches that may produce a published sermon whether done or not when I do not want that to happen.
A question: If a sermon is published by mistake or by my permission, and in the future, I wanted to delete it. Is it possible to permanently delete?
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Mark said:
A question: If a sermon is published by mistake or by my permission, and in the future, I wanted to delete it. Is it possible to permanently delete?
SoundFaith supports a "soft delete" -- the item is marked as deleted and can only be seen by the owner. Any previously public links to the resource will no longer work.
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Mark said:
I have no interest in being negative. Please understand that. I want to see the success of the Sermon app. But I have not used it and this thread makes me not want to use it because I do not feel enough has been done to ensure the privacy of my notes and sermon write ups and ideas. I would love to use the tool to see how it can help me. But I am not interested in the kinds of glitches that may produce a published sermon whether done or not when I do not want that to happen.
There are two features in LOGOS 7 that draw my interest - though I have not yet bit the bullet. One of these features is/was the sermon editor - but as I have read this thread, I am becoming less and less excited about its existence. I do have LOGOS 7 Basic and continue to enjoy the features of LOGOS 6, but still see little need to upgrade to LOGOS 7 or LOGOS NOW.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Scott Alexander said:
SoundFaith supports a "soft delete" -- the item is marked as deleted and can only be seen by the owner. Any previously public links to the resource will no longer work.
Soft deletes are good and bad. While it's good that you can still recover something you inadvertently deleted, you also end up with a growing number of soft-deleted cloud documents that FL doesn't let us permanently delete. It becomes unnecessary clutter.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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This does not fix the issue at hand. The main issue is that your internal discussion decided to profit extra off of your users by opting us in automatically. An explaination email doesn't fix the issue. It is ALWAYS wrong to automatically opt someone in. The email should be and should have been to let people know this is an option. It should not be, hey this is what we did to you because you want to pay for this service but you can undo it if you want.
The software is amazing so we as consumers put up with the exorbitant prices from Logos. It is the price we pay to have the best. However, that doesn't mean you should also profit off of what we do/create. And then, you expect us to pay $20/month to use the same service.
I am sorry if I sound a little harsh but this was very irritating.
Robert
Missionary in Bolivia
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iMac - Macbook Air - iPad - L7 Baptist Portfolio - Logos Now
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Can you imagine the outcry that would happen if Microsoft started publishing everything we wrote in Word? Especially if they charged others to use your writings? I have been using sermon builder and have had mixed thoughts about it, trying to decide whether to continue using it as it matures. This makes the decision easy. I am going back to Word and Powerpoint and publish my sermons when and where I decide to do so.
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Scott Alexander said:
SoundFaith supports a "soft delete"
It is good that something we inadvertently deleted can be undeleted. BUT, we should have the right to permanently delete files, even personal books after sometime...OR after sometime, deleted files should automatically be purged.
And as others have pointed out, it is not right to automatically opt us in. At this point the sermon editor is not something that interest me as this thread has given me no assurances.
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Scott Alexander said:
Brad, the date field in the auto-publish setting is designed to prevent auto-publishing prior to a sermon completion.On new documents this value defaults to the upcoming Sunday but you can set it to whatever you like. If that doesn't complement your workflow you can uncheck the auto-publish setting and publish manually when you're ready, using the Export > Post to SoundFaith option.
Thanks for the feedback!
Thank you, Scott! Yes, the Export button is likely the best choice for many of us. My current workflow includes development of several sermons, in various stages of completion, at any given time. If I accidentally have the "automatically publish" box checked, defaulting to the following Sunday, and did all of my prep through the Sermon Editor tool, I would end up with a variety of published "sermons" ranging from completed sermons, to outlines, to simply scripture texts with or without observations, illustrations etc. That would be a real "published mess." Perhaps more of us would jump in with both feet if FL simply eliminated the "automatically publish" check box and steered us to rely on the intentional "Export" button. It might result in less content on SoundFaith, but the content would be of higher quality, and we might have more users willing to engage the benefits of the Sermon Editor Tool without the fears of unwanted side effects like blasting our rough ideas and rough drafts before they are "ready for prime time."
We appreciate you working through this with us, Scott. Thank you again for the thoughtful discourse.
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Brad said:
we might have more users willing to engage the benefits of the Sermon Editor Tool without the fears of unwanted side effects like blasting our rough ideas and rough drafts before they are "ready for prime time."
We appreciate you working through this with us, Scott. Thank you again for the thoughtful discourse.
Brad said:Perhaps more of us would jump in with both feet if FL simply eliminated the "automatically publish" check box and steered us to rely on the intentional "Export" button.
[Y]
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Mark said:Brad said:
we might have more users willing to engage the benefits of the Sermon Editor Tool without the fears of unwanted side effects like blasting our rough ideas and rough drafts before they are "ready for prime time."
We appreciate you working through this with us, Scott. Thank you again for the thoughtful discourse.
Brad said:Perhaps more of us would jump in with both feet if FL simply eliminated the "automatically publish" check box and steered us to rely on the intentional "Export" button.
[Y][Y]
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Why would anyone ever want automatic publishing... this is daft in my opinion. Publishing something is a deliberate act when you feel that something is worth publishing... you wouldn't even have this feature for a forum post... something as important as a sermon should never wind up published in draft... this is a terrible bug!
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Wait a minute, I just noticed I have 7.5 version and the check box for automatically publishing to sound faith is not showing on my sermon editor. Any idea why? Is that feature still in beta? My Spanish sermon published to soundfaith which I don't mind, but it'd be nice to have the option which one I want to publish and which one not.
DAL
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DAL said:
Wait a minute, I just noticed I have 7.5 version and the check box for automatically publishing to sound faith is not showing on my sermon editor. Any idea why? Is that feature still in beta? My Spanish sermon published to soundfaith which I don't mind, but it'd be nice to have the option which one I want to publish and which one not.
DAL
OK, so it's showing on a new sermon when I open a blank sermon document, but the option is not available when I click on the edit sermon link on previously created sermons. Now what? How do we fix this to unpublish and publish back and forth?
Thanks!
DAL
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DAL said:
but the option is not available ... on previously created sermons
This is by design. Sermons created before the introduction of the autopublish feature do not have any autopublish options. If you'd like to publish those to SoundFaith, you can use the "Export... > Post to SoundFaith" option to manually publish.
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DAL said:
but the option is not available ... on previously created sermons
This is by design. Sermons created before the introduction of the autopublish feature do not have any autopublish options. If you'd like to publish those to SoundFaith, you can use the "Export... > Post to SoundFaith" option to manually publish.
If the option to publish a sermon to SoundFaith is already available in the Print/Export, then what is the purpose of the auto publish button option? Why not simplify things and take the auto publish button out?
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Lonnie Spencer said:
what is the purpose of the auto publish button option
The typical workflow for Sermon Editor is creating a new document at the start of the week; working on it throughout the week; delivering it on Sunday; and then starting a new Sermon the following week.
In this typical workflow, there's not a convenient time to publish the completed Sermon after delivering it on Sunday. Auto-publish is a convenient way to schedule publishing and not have to remember to open last week's sermon to publish on SoundFaith while working on this week's sermon.
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In this typical workflow, there's not a convenient time to publish the completed Sermon after delivering it on Sunday.
Of course there is. It's at 8:15 on Monday morning, right after you've poured your first cup of coffee and fired up your computer, and right before you open a new document for the following Sunday.
Opening a document and selecting "publish" just isn't that hard.
I apologize if this comes across as a bit harsh - I'm not trying to be combative. I'm just not seeing any significant user benefit here - certainly nothing that would outweigh my concerns about Logos publishing my work by default unless I explicitly tell them not to. That seems fundamentally backwards. I want to be able to trust my software tools. If they may do things that I don't expect - especially things with potentially public consequences - it's unsettling. And the last thing FaithLife should want would be for users to feel safer doing their work with other tools in part simply to be more confident that they can control if and when that work is published.
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EastTN said:
Opening a document and selecting "publish" just isn't that hard.
EastTN said:I want to be able to trust my software tools. If they may do things that I don't expect - especially things with potentially public consequences - it's unsettling.
I am thankful for this thread. My concerns are not alleviated. And until they are, I cannot and will not use the sermon editor.
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Use it or don't use it, nobody cares. This is why we can't have nice things.
Your precious sermon isn't that precious. I used to be a preacher. I hated gatherings with other preachers because all they talked about was how to save money (cheat) on taxes, what was wrong with their churches, and why they deserved better. It was quite disillusioning for a young preacher boy. This is just an extension of the same old thing.
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No, Randall, this is not an extension of the same old thing. This is positively hilarious (no offense to the victims). I'm just surprised a company that says pastors are their bread and butter, would rationalize this. Part of their workflow these days, I guess.
Next will be the Faithlife prayer editor, complete with auto-publish from the pastor's contact list.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Randall McRoberts said:
Use it or don't use it, nobody cares. This is why we can't have nice things. Your precious sermon isn't that precious.
I am confused... Are you "for" or "against" auto publishing? For the record, I am not against it... I just think that it should be an "opt in" rather than "opt out." There are many legitimate reasons why someone would not want their sermons published. One popped up in the forums recently... Missionaries in "limited access" countries can have their visas revoked... or worse.
We have a few regular "privacy hawks" on the forums. Although I don't fully agree with their position(s), I am sensitive to their desire/need for privacy. Companies that don't listen to their customers, even if they are in the minority, are tone deaf. I love FL and am regularly accused of being a "homer," but they are really wrong on this one.
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I couldn't possibly care less. It isn't auto-publishing. The man told how to avoid publishing your sermon. Just follow instructions and go on your way as usual.
Additionally, if people don't like it they don't have to use it.
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Randall McRoberts said:
It isn't auto-publishing.
With respect, mine did publish automatically with the box unticked.
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Software sometimes has bugs. Logos is good about fixing stuff quickly. I haven't bothered enough to read every post, but I'm pretty sure a way to make it not public has been given.
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Randall McRoberts said:
Software sometimes has bugs. Logos is good about fixing stuff quickly. I haven't bothered enough to read every post, but I'm pretty sure a way to make it not public has been given.
I agree...and...they will fix the bugs. What is not being said is what they will do with the opt-in option rather than the opt-out default.
BTW, it may be made "not public" but the document will not go away.
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And why is that a problem? I thought you didn't want it published. If it isn't public it isn't published.
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alabama24 said:
.
We have a few regular "privacy hawks" on the forums. Although I don't fully agree with their position(s), I am sensitive to their desire/need for privacy.
I'm offended at this statement ... hawks? I prefer eagles.
After the recent decision to give the world all the Americans' data and then some, I tried out Onion Browser, figuring the user servers would be only gigabytes away from crashing. The Logos sites refused Onion. I'm sure there's a reason but it was funny too.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Randall McRoberts said:
And why is that a problem?
Forgive me...I didn't make myself clear. It was published. I wouldn't have known that it was automatically published (the box was unticked) unless this thread brought it to my attention to check. I went to soundfaith and clicked delete. It's not deleted but hidden, which may not really mean it is deleted. It's an entirely other matter whether or not something is hidden if this is still considered "published" (which I will let others parse).
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Randall McRoberts said:
Additionally, if people don't like it they don't have to use it.
That's absolutely correct. And there's value to FaithLife in explaining why you might not use it - especially if the fix is simply changing a default setting. They may, for a variety of reasons, choose not to change that setting. But at least they'll have a better idea of why they aren't reaching a segment of their user base.
There's another aspect of this that hasn't been discussed. Authors have certain legal rights to their work. This is not my area of expertise, but I'm surprised their attorneys gave them the permission to do it this way. If I were in effect the publisher of sermons, I'd want to have explicit permission from the authors before publishing anything. There may be some legal language covering this in the fine print somewhere, but they would seem to have a much better defense against someone saying "I never intended to give you permission to publish that" if this were an opt-in rather than an opt-out.
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