Lexham English Bible: What do you think?
Hi folks.
Many of you know that Logos Bible Software has been working on an English translation of the Bible called the Lexham English Bible (LEB). The New Testament is currently available in Logos 4 and we have commenced work on the Old Testament as well.
What you may not know is that I’m the Product Manager for the Lexham English Bible. With that hat on, I’m asking you to please consider evaluating and, if you’d like, offering a short blurb/endorsement for the LEB. We’re planning to launch an informational web site about the Lexham English Bible some time in the next few months, and these blurbs will be listed there and perhaps in other media (press releases, other web sites, and the like). If you have something positive to say about the LEB and are comfortable with Logos using it in such contexts, we would appreciate it.
We see the primary use of the Lexham English Bible as a complement to one’s existing Bible reading and study practices. The LEB is an outgrowth of interlinear editions that Logos Bible Software has created over the past seven years, so the relationship between the original language text and the LEB is relatively transparent. Because of this, the LEB is also easy to use alongside the original language text.
We’re not looking to replace pew Bibles, change introductory Bible course requirements, or supplant one’s carefully chosen primary reading translation. We think the value of the LEB is complementary, especially when working word by word or phrase by phrase through the text.
If you choose to respond with a blurb or endorsement, please respond to this thread and make sure to:
1. List your name as you would like it displayed along with any titles/degrees conferred, etc.
2. List your institution/affiliation(s) as you would like it displayed with the blurb
3. Respond by February 28, 2010.
If you have further questions about the LEB, please respond to this thread as well.
Thanks!
PS: Further info I just thought of: In case you're wondering, the LEB NT is a translation of the UBS/NA Greek text. The OT will be a translation of the BHS text.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print
Comments
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Rick,
I see little information about the LEB -- there is no front matter in the resource, and little mention at Logos product pages and blog.
Rick Brannan said:We’re not looking to replace pew Bibles, change introductory Bible course requirements, or supplant one’s carefully chosen primary reading translation. We think the value of the LEB is complementary, especially when working word by word or phrase by phrase through the text.
What are the goals of LEB? What does it attempt to provide that other translations don't have, so that it would complement them?
Is there concern that providing such information will set-off a translation battle? (joking, well, sort of)
Thanks in advance,
Scott
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Hi Scott.
Thanks for the questions. We don't have all of the front matter together yet, but the translation for the NT is there for users and can be evaluated. Basically, the copy you have in Logos 4 right now is like a beta. It's together and functioning, and relatively solid, but we haven't got all the pieces together yet. The final pieces before a formal release will include the front matter you're talking about. We have a draft of the preface, I'll see about posting it or excerpts from it, on this thread, when I'm back in the office on Monday.
The goals? The goals tie in well with our mission, as stated at http://www.logos.com/about/mission. We're about studying the Bible, and the LEB is one more tool toward that end.
The complementary nature I think of has to do with the transparency of the translation, especially if you're using it in Logos Bible Software with other Lexham tools like the interlinears. Because we basically "show our work" with the path from original language text, to interlinear, to English translation (and back again with the reverse interlinear) you can tell where things come from. This type of information, used in concert with whatever your primary reading Bible is, can be helpful when you want to dig down a bit deeper.
I see this in a few ways. First, the style of the translation is fairly literal. For the NT, if you know some Greek, you can look at the Greek NT and the LEB NT and say, "oh, that's where that came from." However, as with any translation, there are times where you need to use a little elbow grease to get something to work in the translation language. In the LEB, we're fairly careful to mark these things. Supplied words are noted with [brackets] (this will change to italics in a later release). These are words in English that are typically implied by English style or structure; or are grammaticalized from the original language. Additionally, there are idioms which are noted with {curly braces} (these will be lower-corner brackets in a later release). Idioms are things that when translated literally they don't convey to us what they would've to the original reader/hearer. Like Mt 1.18, "in the belly having" is an idiom to mean Mary is pregnant. There are other places where the Greek or Hebrew is overly complex and a smoothed over version is presented as an idiom.
In other words, with interlinears and reverse interlinears, we're showing you how we made the translation and where the rough points are. It's this sort of information that can be helpful when working through a passage: Links back to the original langauge, understanding of how the translation got there, and some information on where the tough spots are.
Hope this helps. Thanks again for your questions, and I'll see about getting the preface or some excerpts from it posted here as well.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick I noticed the LEB after I upgraded and was intrigued by it. One of the uses I see is for people that want to see under the hood of the translation process without actually learning the original language. It allows them to see how the influences of the translators affected what they normally read. Much of the same type of information is available in more main stream translations, but it isn't a "in your face" as it is with the LEB. I personally plan on using it with an adult inductive BS that teach.
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Rick,
Thanks for the Leb.. Since the upgrade it is my #1 bible. I love how you have shown where there was translation difficulties such as idioms. I have done a demo video on Logos 4, and promoted it in my video a few weeks ago. Unfortunately I am a mere seminary student, and offer no creditable title behind my name to endorse the Leb. I appreciate the logic behind the translation it was not readily available in the Leb itself. I look forward to the Ot translation, I have been waiting eagerly. Thanks for all your hard work..
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Hi Rick,
Thanks for this project of yours. I like the idea of LEB very much. As you said with the LEB one can come closer to the original--it's a very good tool of first approach to the original. I guess that working with interlinears and reverse interlinears changes the mindset after some time, and some of that can be seen in the LEB. The LEB then makes you hungry to get more of the original...
One suggestion: There already exists "The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint". Please also do a translation of the LXX besides the BHS. I have noticed that Logos has realized the importance of the Septuagint and has made available good resources and works on even more at present. The LXX as part of the LEB would be very nice, too.
Joakeim
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The LEB is a helpful aid to Bible study, in that translator's notes are exceptionally complete, giving transparency from the original language to the English text. As such, it's a wonderful complement to my preferred translation.
Rev. Bill Stonebraker
2002 M. Div, Fuller Seminary
1992 MBA-Executive, Friends UniversityGrace & Peace,
Bill
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Hi Folks
I earlier wrote:
Rick Brannan said:We have a draft of the preface, I'll see about posting it or excerpts from it, on this thread, when I'm back in the office on Monday.
A draft of the preface is below; it may change between now and when it appears in the resource. Hope it helps.
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With approximately one hundred different English translations of the Bible already published, the reader may well wonder why yet another English version has been produced. Those actually engaged in the work of translating the Bible might answer that the quest for increased accuracy, the incorporation of new scholarly discoveries in the fields of semantics, lexicography, linguistics, new archaeological discoveries, and the continuing evolution of the English language all contribute to the need for producing new translations. But in the case of the Lexham English Bible (LEB), the answer to this question is much simpler; in fact, it is merely twofold.
First, the LEB achieves an unparalleled level of transparency with the original language text because the LEB had as its starting point the Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament. It was produced with the specific purpose of being used alongside the original language text of the Bible. Existing translations, however excellent they may be in terms of English style and idiom, are frequently so far removed from the original language texts of scripture that straightforward comparison is difficult for the average user. Of course distance between the original language text and the English translation is not a criticism of any modern English translation. To a large extent this distance is the result of the philosophy of translation chosen for a particular English version, and it is almost always the result of an attempt to convey the meaning of the original in a clearer and more easily understandable way to the contemporary reader. However, there are many readers, particularly those who have studied some biblical Greek, who desire a translation that facilitates straightforward and easy comparisons between the translation and the original language text. The ability to make such comparisons easily in software formats like Logos Bible Software makes the need for an English translation specifically designed for such comparison even more acute.
Second, the LEB is designed from the beginning to make extensive use of the most up-to-date lexical reference works available. For the New Testament this is primarily the third edition of Walter Bauer's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG). Users can be assured that the LEB as a translation is based on the best scholarly research available. The Greek text on which the LEB New Testament is based is that of NA27 (Novum Testamentum Graece editio XXVII). Often referred to as the “critical” text, this is the most widely used Greek text of the New Testament in use today.
Naturally, when these two factors are taken into consideration, it should not be surprising that the character of the LEB as a translation is fairly literal. This is a necessary by-product of the desire to have the English translation correspond transparently to the original language text. Nevertheless, a serious attempt has been made within these constraints to produce a clear and readable English translation instead of a woodenly literal one.
There are three areas in particular that need to be addressed to make a translation like the LEB more accessible to readers today, while at the same time maintaining easy comparison with the original language text. First, differences in word order have to be addressed. In this regard, the LEB follows standard English word order, not the word order of Koiné Greek. Anyone who needs to see the word order of the original Greek can readily consult the Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament, which contains a sequence line which gives this information. Second, some expressions in biblical Greek are idiomatic, so that a literal translation would be meaningless or would miscommunicate the true meaning. The LEB uses lower corner brackets to indicate such expressions, with a literal rendering given in a note. Third, words which have no equivalent in the original language text must sometimes be supplied in the English translation. Because the LEB is designed to be used alongside the original language texts of scripture, these supplied words are indicated with italics. In some cases the need for such supplied words is obvious, but in other cases where it is less clear a note has been included.
Finally, the reader should remember that any Bible translation, to be useful to the person using it, must actually be read. I would encourage every user of the LEB, whether reading it alongside the original languages text or not, to remember that once we understand the meaning of a biblical text we are responsible to apply it first in our own lives, and then to share it with those around us.
W. Hall Harris III
General Editor
Lexham English BibleRick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Where do I find the translators' notes others have referred to? Are these footnotes in the usual way, or can they be viewed alongside the text?
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You can see it by pointing to the text or the power lookup
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Richard Lyall said:
Where do I find the translators' notes others have referred to? Are these footnotes in the usual way, or can they be viewed alongside the text?
They're partly footnotes. Pick a section... wave your mouse over the footnotes... Brackets show an interpolation, a footnote gives the literal text & explains the translation ==> translator's note.
Help?
Grace & Peace,
Bill
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Rick Brannan said:
We’re planning to launch an informational web site about the Lexham English Bible some time in the next few months, and these blurbs will be listed there and perhaps in other media (press releases, other web sites, and the like). If you have something positive to say about the LEB and are comfortable with Logos using it in such contexts, we would appreciate it.
Rick Brannan said:If you choose to respond with a blurb or endorsement, please respond to this thread and make sure to:
1. List your name as you would like it displayed along with any titles/degrees conferred, etc.
2. List your institution/affiliation(s) as you would like it displayed with the blurb
3. Respond by February 28, 2010.I've been enjoying the LEB since I first discovered it in Logos4. It is a very helpful resource to me in my sermon and Bible study preparation because it is such a literal translation. As an expository preacher, I pay a lot of attention to literal meanings (among other things), and find that the LEB gets it right, without adding much for English readers. While I wouldn't use the LEB for devotional reading, or in a worship setting, it is a very useful tool for Bible study.
The LEB uses BDAG (the most widely respected lexicon currently available) as it's primary source for translation. As it translates, every added word, (implied in Greek, but required in English) is bracketed. For Greek idioms that don't make much sense in English (e.g. Greek: "the things with me" translated "my circumstances" Eph 6:21), these are bracketed and the literal idiom footnoted. The LEB seems to go the extra mile in being literal, while still translating into understandable English. Although I do have some facility in Greek, I'm sure the LEB will be especially helpful for non-Greek students of the Bible.
What follows is a selected example of how the LEB helped me. While preaching through Ephesians I noticed that the LEB considers Eph 6:14-20 one sentence, where all other translations break up that sentence into smaller, more manageable ones, some even into multiple paragraphs. While I don't challenge the need to break up this Pauline sentence for English readers, it helps me as I'm studying to see the sentence as a unit, intended to be taken together. I had not noticed how tight was the connection between standing against the enemies of the Gospel (v.14) and standing in prayer (v.18), nor how this is connected to praying for Paul (vv.19-20). Application points between the pieces of armor and prayer begin to drip from the text when such a literal connection is made plain.
Serious students of the Bible will enjoy the LEB as a very helpful tool for understanding even better the original meaning behind the text.
Rich DeRuiter (M.Div.)
Pastor, Alger Community CRC
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Thanks to everyone who has responded. This is great! Glad to see the LEB is helping you in your study.
I should clarify why I specified name/institution/etc. in the first note.
Rick Brannan said:If you choose to respond with a blurb or endorsement, please respond to this thread and make sure to:
1. List your name as you would like it displayed along with any titles/degrees conferred, etc.
2. List your institution/affiliation(s) as you would like it displayed with the blurb
3. Respond by February 28, 2010.We would love response from anyone using the LEB in any capacity. Devotional reading. Exegetical study. As a diglot help while reading the Greek NT. I didn't mean to exclude anyone who didn't have institutional affiliation, I just added it to get an idea of the range of folks who are using the LEB.
If you haven't checked out the LEB yet, fire it up in your Logos 4 and give it a test run on your favorite NT passage. Let us know what you think. And if you feel comfy writing a sentence or two to sum up your experience, please post it here to let us know. It'll help us as we work on the OT portion of the translation.
Also, someone asked about translating the LXX as part of the Lexham English Bible. We're pretty focused on translating the Hebrew Bible/OT right now. We need to finish up the LXX interlinear first (there are a few items remaining). Once we're done with the LXX interlinear, and well under way with the Hebrew Bible/OT, we'll definitely consider a similar translation project with the LXX. But that will be just a ways down the road.
Thanks again. Looking forward to see how folks are using the LEB!
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Mr. Brannan,
I was curious what the theological basis being utilized by the translators at Logos for this bible. As you know, the translators' theology drives translation, especially of controversial or difficult passages.
Any light you can shed would be helpful. Perhaps, even a doctrinal statement by the translators would be useful regarding their stance on core Christian tenets.
Thank you.
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Pat Flanakin said:
I was curious what the theological basis being utilized by the translators at Logos for this bible.
Here we go again...
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Hi Pat.
Pat Flanakin said:I was curious what the theological basis being utilized by the translators at Logos for this bible. As you know, the translators' theology drives translation, especially of controversial or difficult passages.
Any light you can shed would be helpful. Perhaps, even a doctrinal statement by the translators would be useful regarding their stance on core Christian tenets.
We're not looking to be purveyors of any particular theological system, and there is no underlying theological stance that the LEB attempts to reinforce through its translation. We do not have a doctrinal statement for the translation and we do not require the translators to agree to any particular theological or doctrinal statement.
Instead, the translation process itself is rather focused and transparent. We've "shown our work" through developing the translation by the means of an interlinear process, and then again through a reverse interlinear alignment with the translation. At any point, one can work from the Greek NT to the LEB, or from the LEB back to the Greek NT.
What I would instead ask is that you examine the LEB New Testament for those passages you consider controversial or difficult, compare what the LEB has to what is included in other translations and what is found in standard lexical resources (BDAG, Louw-Nida, etc.) and in commentaries, and see what comes up. I'd like to hear what you find.
I don't say this to be dismissive; I'm genuinely interested because we built these resources to help work through these sorts of questions. We've taken great pains to transparently anchor the translation in the original languages and also ensure that users of the LEB and the Lexham interlinears in Logos 4 can follow that trail again and wrestle with the tough issues, hoping everyone will benefit in their study — whether they ultimately agree with the choices of the LEB translators or not.
Thanks again for the question, Pat, and if you do check out some of the passages you have in mind, please let me know. This goes for everyone else out there too.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan said:
We would love response from anyone using the LEB in any capacity. Devotional reading. Exegetical study. As a diglot help while reading the Greek NT. I didn't mean to exclude anyone who didn't have institutional affiliation, I just added it to get an idea of the range of folks who are using the LEB.
Rick,
I find the LEB VERY useful, I set it as my preferred bible; and use it to lookup NT references in my NKJV (preferred reading bible) and others. I find using it in this way, a great way to discover the usefulness of having a literal translation as close to the original text as possible. Especially since I do not read greek...I am hoping that the OT will be out soon. As my skills in the area of original language study increase, I'm sure the LEB will be even more helpful; to this layman.
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Anthony Etienne said:
Rick,
I find the LEB VERY useful, I set it as my preferred bible; and use it to lookup NT references in my NKJV (preferred reading bible) and others. I find using it in this way, a great way to discover the usefulness of having a literal translation as close to the original text as possible. Especially since I do not read greek...I am hoping that the OT will be out soon. As my skills in the area of original language study increase, I'm sure the LEB will be even more helpful; to this layman.
Thanks, Anthony! Glad you're finding good use for the LEB!
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
I didn't realise I was sitting on such a useful resource. I often seek out the literal\formal equivalents in my own study, so will give this one another whirl.
Useful tip about using the Information Window to display the translator's notes.
Thanks
Richard0 -
Mr. Brannan,
Thank you for your comprehensive answer. With all due respect, I find it disconcerting that those translating (and you are translating when going from one language to another) the Bible from the original within the Lexham group are not required to adhere to a particular theology. This would mean that different sections of the Bible being translated may resolve to one theology (say Covenant Theology), and another section resolved by another theology (say Dispensational or a Lordship Salvation standpoint).
One area that is a major concern for translation is how 1 John is a cornerstone of the Lordship Salvation approach to verification of salvation. The way this epistle is translated does lean one way or another.
I do understand that study bibles are much more influenced by theological stances, vs. version of the Bible, but if a particular translator believes that God's days in Genesis may not be 24 hour days, but could be indeterminate periods of time (as time is defined), this can affect a rendering of the Hebrew.
Thanks again.
Rick Brannan said:Hi Pat.
Pat Flanakin said:I was curious what the theological basis being utilized by the translators at Logos for this bible. As you know, the translators' theology drives translation, especially of controversial or difficult passages.
Any light you can shed would be helpful. Perhaps, even a doctrinal statement by the translators would be useful regarding their stance on core Christian tenets.
We're not looking to be purveyors of any particular theological system, and there is no underlying theological stance that the LEB attempts to reinforce through its translation. We do not have a doctrinal statement for the translation and we do not require the translators to agree to any particular theological or doctrinal statement.
Instead, the translation process itself is rather focused and transparent. We've "shown our work" through developing the translation by the means of an interlinear process, and then again through a reverse interlinear alignment with the translation. At any point, one can work from the Greek NT to the LEB, or from the LEB back to the Greek NT.
What I would instead ask is that you examine the LEB New Testament for those passages you consider controversial or difficult, compare what the LEB has to what is included in other translations and what is found in standard lexical resources (BDAG, Louw-Nida, etc.) and in commentaries, and see what comes up. I'd like to hear what you find.
I don't say this to be dismissive; I'm genuinely interested because we built these resources to help work through these sorts of questions. We've taken great pains to transparently anchor the translation in the original languages and also ensure that users of the LEB and the Lexham interlinears in Logos 4 can follow that trail again and wrestle with the tough issues, hoping everyone will benefit in their study — whether they ultimately agree with the choices of the LEB translators or not.
Thanks again for the question, Pat, and if you do check out some of the passages you have in mind, please let me know. This goes for everyone else out there too.
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Pat Flanakin said:
With all due respect, I find it disconcerting that those translating (and you are translating when going from one language to another) the Bible from the original within the Lexham group are not required to adhere to a particular theology.
I respectfully disagree. Translating into a theology is the task of the exegete rather than the translator. To imply that the issues must be worked out in the translation process implies that the Bible is not naturally coherent theologically but must be made theologically coherent.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Pat Flanakin said:
I find it disconcerting that those translating ... the Bible from the original within the Lexham group are not required to adhere to a particular theology.
Hi Pat,
I'm not sure I'm as concerned with their theology as I am that their translation is not influenced by any particular theology... Why? All Judeo-Christian theology points back to the Bible as its source. Yet they differ. So I don't want any of them influencing the translation I'm using, because I want the chance to think through the original author's intent.
To do as you suggest seems to prejudge what the text of Bible SHOULD say, rather than let it speak for itself.
Blessings to you!
Grace & Peace,
Bill
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Pat Flanakin said:
One area that is a major concern for translation is how 1 John is a cornerstone of the Lordship Salvation approach to verification of salvation. The way this epistle is translated does lean one way or another.
Would you explain this point, please, and show in the LEB where it may be leaning one way or the other. I have no idea what the "Lordship Salvation" approach is, or how one's opinion on it would influence a translation. While you're at it, are there other translations that seem to sway the reader either toward or away from this theology?
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Rick Brannan said:
If you have further questions about the LEB, please respond to this thread as well.
I have a question concerning the translator notes that are missing. E.g 1 John 5:2
when I compare the translator notes for the NET I read
However, when I look at the LEB there is no note. It is missing "showing the work"
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Blair Laird said:
concerning the translator notes that are missing
One of us is missing something. Aren't the translator notes of the NET and the LEB independent?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Blair Laird said:
concerning the translator notes that are missing
One of us is missing something. Aren't the translator notes of the NET and the LEB independent?
Yes they are independent. The Leb claims the status of "showing your work" (translator notes). This is one of the main reason that it is set apart from any other english bible. Yet the Net has translator notes that Leb does not have. Both bibles in this sense should have the same translating notes because they ran into the same translating problem. So my question is why the Leb did not show their work in this instance ? The Net showed their translation work....
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Blair Laird said:
So my question is why the Leb did not show their work in this instance ? The Net showed their translation work....
Understood. Thanks.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Typically, Leb translator notes should be just about the same thing as
along with the notes of supplied words etc..0 -
MJ. Smith said:Blair Laird said:
So my question is why the Leb did not show their work in this instance ? The Net showed their translation work....
Understood. Thanks.
Hi folks.
The LEB "shows its work" in its relationship with the Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament. You can track the translation back to the Greek either through the interlinear (which has various levels of glossing) or directly in the LEB via the reverse interlinear. It is in this tight relationship with the original language text, both from the interlinear and reverse interlinear, that the notion of 'transparency' comes from.
Hope it helps.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Hi Rick,
Not sure I follow how this relates to the question Blair & others are asking. As I understand it, here's the substance of their question...
When the Greek itself is ambiguous about whether a clause refers to what precedes or what follows (e.g., 1 John 5:2)? How then does the LEB show its rationale for WHICH relationship was ASSUMED to be correct?
Which assumption apparently makes a theological difference for 1 John 5:2. For LEB to silently assume one of the two choices without a rationale appears to call its transparency into question.
So... if the Greek itself is ambiguous, how does any linkage to the English count as transparency without a note to explain what assumptions were made about the Greek?
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
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Rick Brannan said:MJ. Smith said:Blair Laird said:
So my question is why the Leb did not show their work in this instance ? The Net showed their translation work....
Understood. Thanks.
Hi folks.
The LEB "shows its work" in its relationship with the Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament. You can track the translation back to the Greek either through the interlinear (which has various levels of glossing) or directly in the LEB via the reverse interlinear. It is in this tight relationship with the original language text, both from the interlinear and reverse interlinear, that the notion of 'transparency' comes from.
Hope it helps.
Let me give you two examples of translators "showing their work ". Do you see what my point is ? The Leb's claim to fame is they show their work. But compared to the NET they dont show their work.
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