Bug?: Some problems with NOT INTERSECTS (possibly limited to Deuterocanonicals)

I was running some tests on the new Reverse Interlinear RSVCE 2nd edition, and had some difficulties with this NOT INTERSECTS search, which doesn't seem to be working properly (especially in the Deuterocanonical books).

Problems seemed especially present in the RSVCE 2nd Edition, where about twice as many hits are given for this search (most of them false hits?) compared to the RSVCE 1st edition, or the NABRE.

Although I also saw what seem to be false hits in those volumes as well in the Deuterocanonicals. One example:

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Andrew Batishko

Is your indexer currently running? If so, please wait until it finishes, and try again.

Dave Hooton

In the NABRE there are problems with "the Lord" NOT INTERSECTS <Person God>

Sirach 1:21 - the English-Greek Interlinear is missing for v.21
(Sirach 33.3 - "the Lord" has no Greek MSS and "Lord" is not tagged as <Person God>)
Sirach 45:25 - "the Lord" has no Greek MSS but "Lord" is tagged as <Person God>
Sirach 46.13 - "the Lord" has no Greek MSS but "Lord" is tagged as <Person God>

Comparing NRSV & NABRE

Sirach 1:8,14 - there is a Greek MSS but "Lord" is not tagged as <Person God> in NRSV
Sirach 1:21 - the verse is missing from the NRSV
Sirach 39:7 - "The Lord" is ascribed to <Person A Scribe>!
Sirach 43:9 - "Lord" is not ascribed to <Person God> whereas "God" (NABRE) is

The Greek MSS appears to be different between the versions, and/or the alignment is different (e.g. 1:21, 2:10, 16:11, 17:22, 26:19-27) - there are many more unaligned "Lord" in the NRSV. But the tagging in NABRE 45:25, 46:13 does not come from the Referents database, hence the search result.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

I was running some tests on the new Reverse Interlinear RSVCE 2nd edition, and had some difficulties with this NOT INTERSECTS search, which doesn't seem to be working properly (especially in the Deuterocanonical books).

Replicated Search issue using Logos 7.10 RC 2 (with indexing complete):

Noticed "the" did not have <Person God> so matched NOT INTERSECTS criteria, but Lord has <Person God> so phrase being found feels buggy.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Annoyance was unchecking Visual Filters in menu still had Logos 7.10 processing them for three RSV resources, which delayed screen shot since Right Click would not populate while visual filter searching in progress.

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/930291#Comment_930291

Is your indexer currently running? If so, please wait until it finishes, and try again.

The indexer had finished. This morning my RSV2CE updated, and I reran the search after the indexer finished, and same problem.

This search makes evident some problems:

Person, place, and thing tagging in the Deuterocanonicals seems sporadic and incomplete. I haven't checked other types of tagging, but my guess is that any other tagging done for Deuterocanonicals together with the Person, place, and thing tagging probably suffers from the same problem.
As Dave's post pointed out, the tagging in the Deuterocanonicals varies widely from one translation to another... a very strange situation compared to how stable Faithlife tagging is in the Hebrew canon and NT, where the original Greek and Hebrew tagging is simply carried over to the translation. These two points don't give me confidence that I can use Faithlife's tagging to do research on the Deuterocanonical books.
The NOT INTERSECTS search does not seem to be working correctly with "phrases in quotation marks". KS4J pointed out that in many of these cases, the word "the" in English is not tagged with the <Person God> tag, while the word "Lord" is. In and of itself, that is not a problem. But in that case there is still an "intersection" between the phrase and the person tag, and the result should not appear in a NOT INTERSECTS search. Any sort of intersection should be enough, without requiring every word in the phrase to have a tag. EDIT: Although it could be this is a totally separate problem. Judith 4:15 and others return an incorrect hit with both "the" and "Lord" tagged as <Person God>.

Philana R. Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/930385#Comment_930385

Fr Devin,

Thanks for letting us know. I'll alert the appropriate team.

Andrew Batishko

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/930385#Comment_930385

I worked through a number of results from the "the lord" NOT INTERSECTS <Person God> search. I didn't find any indication that NOT INTERSECTS is broken.

Judith 4:15 correctly is left out of the results.

All other hits seem correct based on the tagging (with the exception of Sirach in the RSV2CE, which seems to be a different issue caused by being entirely unable to search for <Person God> in that book.

Remember that right-clicking may show the tag as existing on an English word, but if the word is one that was inserted by translators, and is not actually backed by an original language word, then right-clicking is not an accurate representation of what the search engine sees. Do a search for <Person God>, and I suspect you'll find that all the places you thought were wrong with the NOT INTERSECTS search are actually just a problem that <Person God> is not tagged where you thought it was.

Please let me know if you find otherwise.

Rick Brannan (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/930385#Comment_930385

Person, place, and thing tagging in the Deuterocanonicals seems sporadic and incomplete. I haven't checked other types of tagging, but my guess is that any other tagging done for Deuterocanonicals together with the Person, place, and thing tagging probably suffers from the same problem.

Are you here talking of Person/Place/Thing tagging (explicit mentions) or referent tagging (pronouns, implieds, etc.)? The referent tagging for the deuterocanon / apocrypha has not been treated as rigorously as that of the 39 OT books and 27 NT books.

As Dave's post pointed out, the tagging in the Deuterocanonicals varies widely from one translation to another... a very strange situation compared to how stable Faithlife tagging is in the Hebrew canon and NT, where the original Greek and Hebrew tagging is simply carried over to the translation. These two points don't give me confidence that I can use Faithlife's tagging to do research on the Deuterocanonical books

Part of the issue is that the deuterocanon / apocrypha is a much more fluid corpus. Most editions versify Sirach differently in not insigificant ways (as is attested above). Divining the best alignment source for other books (especially Tobit) is an excercise in continual frustration. One note: The NRSV (not NRSVCE) is the only deuterocanon/apocrypha that was aligned to texts from Rahlfs; the others are all based on either the primary or alternate (or some strange book-level mix of both) from Swete's LXX. So I'd expect comparing NRSV to RSV, RSVCE, RSV2CE, NRSVCE, LES, or NABRE would have issues (much the same as comparing KJV or NKJV to NIV would have some issues).

Also, the secondary/alternate texts have yet to have Person/Place/Thing tagging and referent tagging implemented, which is what I at present think will address many of the issues reported in this post. That's on the to-do list, but I can't give a timeline for it (though I think its importance just jumped a bit).

Andrew Batishko

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/930482#Comment_930482

The problems with searching in Sirach in RSV2CE should be fixed now with a metadata update. Please restart the application and wait for a minute for metadata to update. Then try searching again in Sirach in RSV2CE.

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/930499#Comment_930499

The problems with searching in Sirach in RSV2CE should be fixed now with a metadata update. Please restart the application and wait for a minute for metadata to update. Then try searching again in Sirach in RSV2CE.

Thanks, Andrew. That fixed almost all the issues.

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/930487#Comment_930487

Person, place, and thing tagging in the Deuterocanonicals seems sporadic and incomplete. I haven't checked other types of tagging, but my guess is that any other tagging done for Deuterocanonicals together with the Person, place, and thing tagging probably suffers from the same problem.

Are you here talking of Person/Place/Thing tagging (explicit mentions) or referent tagging (pronouns, implieds, etc.)? The referent tagging for the deuterocanon / apocrypha has not been treated as rigorously as that of the 39 OT books and 27 NT books.

As Dave's post pointed out, the tagging in the Deuterocanonicals varies widely from one translation to another... a very strange situation compared to how stable Faithlife tagging is in the Hebrew canon and NT, where the original Greek and Hebrew tagging is simply carried over to the translation. These two points don't give me confidence that I can use Faithlife's tagging to do research on the Deuterocanonical books

Part of the issue is that the deuterocanon / apocrypha is a much more fluid corpus. Most editions versify Sirach differently in not insigificant ways (as is attested above). Divining the best alignment source for other books (especially Tobit) is an excercise in continual frustration. One note: The NRSV (not NRSVCE) is the only deuterocanon/apocrypha that was aligned to texts from Rahlfs; the others are all based on either the primary or alternate (or some strange book-level mix of both) from Swete's LXX. So I'd expect comparing NRSV to RSV, RSVCE, RSV2CE, NRSVCE, LES, or NABRE would have issues (much the same as comparing KJV or NKJV to NIV would have some issues).

Also, the secondary/alternate texts have yet to have Person/Place/Thing tagging and referent tagging implemented, which is what I at present think will address many of the issues reported in this post. That's on the to-do list, but I can't give a timeline for it (though I think its importance just jumped a bit).

Thanks, Rick. I appreciate that some of the Deuterocanonicals have multiple versions, and are complicated to align, and probably a ton of work to prepare. I look forward to tat situation improving, and am glad to hear it is on the list! Thanks for your hard work on these!

Even so, I run across a lot of cases in these books where it still seems to me to be a lack of tagging.

So, searching in the NRSV for "the lord" NOT INTERSECTS <Person God>, here are some examples. I am limiting myself to those instances in which the NRSV Reverse Interlinear is lined up to the original Greek kurios:

Sirach 1:8 - "the Lord" is not tagged as <Person God>
Sirach 1:14 - "the Lord" is not tagged as <Person God>
Sirach 42:16 - "the Lord" is not tagged as <Person God>
Sirach 43:9 - "the Lord" is not tagged as <Person God>
Sirach 46:3 - "the Lord" is not tagged as <Person God>
Sirach 50:20 - "the Lord" is not tagged as <Person God>

That is the book of Sirach, but as best I can tell there are similar examples in pretty much all of the Deuterocanonicals, even in the NRSV, which I am guessing may be in better shape than the others.

EDIT: I checked the RSV2CE, and none of these tagging problems from Sirach were present, with all the hits coming from the text not being aligned. So, that's good news. However, in the RSV2CE some of the other Deuterocanonicals do have problems with this particular search. Searching The Song of the Three Young Men, for example, gives over 30 hits (both in the NRSV and the RSV2CE) where "the Lord" is aligned with the Greek, and should have the tagging <Person God>. (And, of course, pronoun tagging is even more lacking).