Logos 4 Philosophy
Our goal is to help more people do more and better Bible
study.
The leading Bible software products available today
(including Logos 3.x) are powerful tools designed 10-20 years ago. I believe
that all the top commercial Bible software companies were started in a day when
every single user owned a screwdriver for opening their computer case, and most
of us had flipped DIP switches or moved jumpers to install something.
Our customers were "pastor geeks." Our software
was designed for people who liked technology, were comfortable with it, and
wanted to have fine-level control over it.
Now that wasn't everyone who wanted to study the Bible, but
it was pretty close to everyone who wanted to study the Bible and owned a
computer.
Today everybody has a computer, and lots of them are not
computer-geeks and don't want to become them. The majority of
"everyone" has something else they want to do -- from Bible study to
photography to cooking to water skiing -- and a computer is just one more tool
in their life for doing whatever it is they want to do. They just want it to
work.
(There are "geek" minorities in every area of interest,
and many of us move across the spectrum over time. In software I've been moving
from geek to user. I used to disassemble software. Now I just want it to work.
In cooking I'm going the other way: I used to microwave plastic food, now I
hand grind spices.)
As computer ownership has changed from being a reliable
indicator of computer-geek status to the equivalent of owning a toaster our
customer base has changed. There's interest in our tool for Bible study from
people who don't have any interest in technology. And we want to serve people
who want to do Bible study -- all of them. Not just the people whose interests are
both the Bible and computers.
To serve them well, we need to get the technology out of the
way.
(There are still open questions of what to simplify, what is
and isn't more powerful, what's easy, what's hard, what settings are and aren't
needed. We won't get that perfect in the first pass, or ever, but we'll keep
adjusting it based on feedback and experience.)
The Mac vs. Windows argument is a great example of what's
happening in computers. The Mac has been around since 1984, and long derided by
"real computer users" as a silly toy that didn't have the power and
control we needed. And it was (and remains, in some ways) true. People
literally open up their PC's and modify them with hardware, add-on cards, special
drivers, connectors, software, etc. Nobody took a soldering iron to a Mac, but many
PC users of the 80's made their own circuit boards. Because if you were
spending $3,000 on a computer, in 1985 money, you had "serious computer
needs."
20 years later the Mac is an overnight success. :-) It's
winning the mind share, it's converting people, and people are praising how
"it just works."
Sure, it's gotten a little more flexible and powerful, but
for the most part the criticisms justly leveled against it in 1984 are still
true. It's a closed system that simplifies things. You're constrained to one hardware
vendor. What's changed isn't the Mac, it's the world. Computers aren't huge
investments by people who really need or like technology. They're toasters;
common household appliances used by everyone.
I know people who like to tinker with cars. Most of them learned
to do that because they had to; the cars required the tinkering to keep
working. Even I was pretty familiar with what was under the hood of my first
car.
Today I drive a car that recognizes my key in my pocket and
opens with a touch, starts with a button, and turns on the headlights and
windshield wipers automatically. I never open the hood. It alerts me when it
needs an oil change. The only way it could be better for me is if it radioed
the dealer about the oil change, sending its GPS location and historical
pattern information suggesting where it would likely be parked for 2+ hours so
the dealer could come and change it in the parking lot while I'm at work. Or,
better yet, if they made an engine that never needed an oil change. Or oil.
Maybe you change your own oil. Maybe you like changing the
oil. Maybe you go out of your way to have an older car you can tune and tinker
without a special programming chip. More power to you; I get it. I don't have
to hand grind spices, I just want to.
But you are no longer the majority of car buyers, and I am
not the majority of spice consumers. People want them pre-ground. Or just
cooked into the packaged plastic food. :-)
I'm not asking you to change, or to stop loving total
control over the technology. I'm just explaining what's happening, and how it's
affecting us. I would encourage you to step back and think about it though. Sure,
you're used to changing your oil. You like the hands-on involvement and the
ritual of it. You did it with your dad or your son.
But really, wouldn't an oil-free car be nicer for everyone?
Does the next generation want to mess with it?
At Logos we spend approximately $1 million per year on customer
service and technical support. The majority of that expense goes to supporting activation,
installation on more than one machine, and "where are my book files / my
book files are out of date".
So in Logos 4 we tried to eliminate as much as we could of
all those things. We're replacing activation with an email address and password,
even if you rarely/never use email. We're simplifying multiple machine
installation by simply synching all your settings and data. We're avoiding
missing/old resource files by having the software automatically download
missing and updated resources and manage them for you.
Are some people going to hate it? Yes. Some people refuse to
have an email address. Some people want to manage every file on their system.
Some people use filters to control every byte in and out of their machine to
the Internet. Some people open up Logos 3 XML data files and hand-hack the
contents.
And maybe that's you. If so, I've got two questions: Do you
think it's the majority? (I'm guessing not. Well, not guessing. I've got the
data, the feedback, and the frustrated calls to tech support on my side.)
And secondly, do you really care? Or are you turning
something we did because we had to into something we want because we've always
done it that way?
(I used to be forever deleting files and pruning my
directory tree because my hard drive ran out of space and I had to do backup on
floppy disks, and I needed to organize files to find them. My kids save
everything, throw it all in one directory, and use search when they want to
find it. We don't use half the hard drive, and they get bigger each year.)
We're always stepping up to higher levels of abstraction.
You want to control where your files go, but do you really? Do you know that
the operating system breaks your 1 meg file into lots of chunks and scatters
them around the hard drive? Do you care? I used to. I used to run checkdisk,
undelete, and defragmenters all the time. I worried about contiguous chunks and
wrote software that was disk-sector-size aware. Now I let the OS deal with it,
though I still organize my folders.
What if you bought a new computer at BestBuy, took it home,
turned it on, and after entering your name and password found that it brought up
every application, photo, video, and music file from your old computer. Would
that be cool?
Well, it'd be scary, to you and me. How did it work? How did
it know? Did it store it on the server or use wifi to take it off the old
machine? Is it secure? etc. But what about our kids? Would they get nostalgic
for a null-modem cable and manually moving every file between systems? Would
they worry about whether moving an application directory brought over the
settings and registry keys?
Or would they just think "well of course, it should just
work, and it did."
With all that said, I know we need to make it work. We need
your feedback to know what's a good streamlining and where we need to leave
some user control. It's clear we can't assume your C: drive has enough space;
but I don't think that means we need to bring back the Location Manager report
and tell you file sizes and version numbers.
And we need to respect the fact that some people want to
tinker with their car, and some people want to "reveal codes" in
WordPerfect, and some people want to write JavaScript macros on their Logos
custom toolbars.
That's why you can buy and keep an old car, and that's why
we very intentionally did not make Logos 4 replace Logos 3. You can keep Logos
3, and every feature that worked there is still there, just as it was. We're
even ensuring it keeps running on Windows 7, etc.
Logos 4 isn't a mandatory replacement, and it doesn't take
away anything you have invested in. It's an optional new product that works
with the content you've invested in. I hope you'll like it, and I hope you'll
help us make it better. But if not, I hope you'll still realize that it has
value for a new, different user, and that, correctly done, it can help even
more people get into better Bible study.
(Last analogy: digital cameras. Early on they didn't offer
the power and flexibility of analog cameras. But they took photography from an
intentional activity that required expertise to something people do all the
time -- off cell phones! And as they improve they're offering even better
customization and power. But the funny thing is, people are caring for that
power less and less. Did you really want to mess with the exposure? Yes? Okay.
But what if the camera picked for you? What if it guessed, but then backed
itself up by taking every photo simultaneously at 15 exposure settings and letting
you pick the best result anytime later? Isn't that better? For some experienced
photographers, even that will probably never beat having "control".
But for most people? Simplicity backed up by power....)
Comments
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Bob,
Thanks for your explanation. IMO it is a little patronizing in places.
However, I think I speak for a lot of folks in this forum by saying that adding some user control would please many of us and you could still avoid expensive service calls by having default settings that automate everything that is costing you too much. Those who will never mess with their default settings will then stay out of your hair and the rest of us (who probably cost you very little in terms of service calls) will know what we are doing when we change a setting.
Let me give you another analogy, since you like them. Detroit. Sometimes I feel like Bellingham is becoming more and more like Detroit: telling us what we will like and what you are going to do and we the consumer better like it. I hope this is not generally felt and is not in fact what is happening. But it ismy observation and feeling.
Respectfully,
Mark
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Bob,
I'm glad you took this time to "rant" and give the Logos side of things. I'm sure it must seem like we users are pretty picky and whiny at times....and we can be.
We really appreciate the fact that you allow us to be "in on" the design process of your software and thank you for the amazing effort it must have taken to make such a good product right out of the chute!
I know that I've had to adjust my thinking a few times while using V4; the library tagging method being one, the layouts being another...they were just "different" and "foreign" but now I see their logic and I've come to appreciate both features and I think that they are great. I'm sure that this will happen as you progress down this path; I will see the logic in certain things that escaped me in the beginning. I know that when I began in V3 there were also certain things that I said "What? It won't do what?" but you learn to use the software and work with it...not against it...and now it's my "model of comparison" to V4!
So take things with a grain of salt, and know that we appreciate what you've done.
Thanks for the explanation,
thanks to the Logos team.
bob
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Bob,
Does the continuation of the Logos 3 option mean you will continue to sell version 3 alongside version 4? Future resources will be useable on both? Will Morris Proctor have to work double time?
To continue the availability of and support for 3 would seem to me to be the answer needed by those (like Dale) who are worried we will lose the familiarity and features of 3.
So far I've appreciated the look of 4, but there is a lot I haven't explored yet to know how it compares with what I've used before. So far my most hoped for improvement doesn't seem to be there, but maybe it's yet to come (see my post about handouts).
So for this beta have you been able to bring in any testers who have never used Logos before? It would be interesting to see how they respond to the user interface having never grown accustomed to an older version.
A couple of years ago at the International Conference on Computing and Mission (www.iccm.org) some of us were discussing Bible software. One of the younger participants (not only younger, but from California as well) said all the Bible programs were essentially taking the same approach to the Bible. What is needed, he said, is a completely new paradigm. We (and he) had no idea what that would be, just that it would keep up with the way people now seek and manage information. It sounds like that is what you are trying to do. Let's see how it develops.
Dave Housholder
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Thanks for the outlook Bob. Much as I like the control etc of the old days, I think you're on the right track. If we settled for the old ways we'd still be in the DOS days. At first I missed using the keyboard short cuts and using the BAT files to speed and simplify everything, but now with mouse and menus etc, one hardly even thinks about it, much less miss all the tinkering and time spent customizing everything.
Keep it up. I think you're on the right track for the future.
Alex.Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.
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Thanks for letting us know the direction we are headed. It would be great if we could keep version 3 & 4. That way what version 4 misses we could use in 3.
Like you, I once tinkered in the os, looking at the registry in Windows 95 & 98 just for the experience and hopefully knowledge. Now, I only delve deep into windows when I have to. I tend to be more interested in getting work done.
All I ask is that you keep as much of the functionality of the existing product, allow imports, and continue to improve on the new version.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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As I understand it, Lynden, Logos4 is intended to work along with Logos3, not replace it. I don't know how this is going to effect new resources though. Are they going to work only with the specific version?
Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.
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Thank you Bob for giving that insight into your philosophy and direction with Logos. IMHO it is needed direction and most of the things I really like, especially visuality, simple fresh look etc. It reminds me my changing of the Pocket PC PDA Phone for iPhone. I was so much involved in tweaking the Windows Mobile system, tuning and playing with the performance more than I really used the phone. Then I just tried iPhone. First 2 week I was almost every day ready to come back to my MDA. Where is the way how I tweak it? In one hour I knew everything about it and I thought It can't work with me. Well, I have it today and I love it. I just use it. It has all I need, it does not have half of the tweaking abilities of the former phone but who cares? I think it will be similar with the Logos 4, I hope.
However. Having said that, I am afraid of one thing. Back to my analogy. iPhone first OS really missed some very vital tools. Like cut and paste, and few more. I am afraid we will not only loose some unnecessary complicated settings and file management, but some really vital features.
My suggestion to you is the way MS went with their OS (sorry guys for the example). With Vista you can exist without even knowing there are some disk, or system management tools, all you need is to just use your computer. But for guys like me, and surely Dale [:)] there should be some management console where you can change the things basic users have no need even to know where to find them. In windows you can even hide the console and you do not see it. Or you can hide the system files (I never do, I want to see them all). So I think (and I know it might be a lot of additional work) we need Logos to be as intuitive, visual and flexible as possible. Then you can go "under the surface" and you should be able to have much bigger possibility to change the settings, if you know what are you doing. That's just how I see it.
Bohuslav
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Mark A. Smith said:
Bob,
Thanks for your explanation. IMO it is a little patronizing in places.
However, I think I speak for a lot of folks in this forum by saying that adding some user control would please many of us and you could still avoid expensive service calls by having default settings that automate everything that is costing you too much. Those who will never mess with their default settings will then stay out of your hair and the rest of us (who probably cost you very little in terms of service calls) will know what we are doing when we change a setting.
Let me give you another analogy, since you like them. Detroit. Sometimes I feel like Bellingham is becoming more and more like Detroit: telling us what we will like and what you are going to do and we the consumer better like it. I hope this is not generally felt and is not in fact what is happening. But it ismy observation and feeling.
Respectfully,
Mark
I have to agree with you Mark. I respect Logos has a business model and a target audience that is not at question and it is a great goal to want to be able to reduce support costs and if that can be acheived even better, I don't think anyone would even be questioning that, but I do believe there could be and should be more control available to those users who would like it, for those users who are thinkers and want to go the extra step, and don't want the decisions of someone sitting in an office in Bellingham completely controlling their bible study experience.. And we should not be made to feel as we are wrong with wanting that or somehow behind the times or not being supportive of Logos just because we don't want to be part of the crowd - just because it exists doesn't make it right for me to follow it, but it maybe right for the next person. I don't want to tinker with registry settings or have to write scripts to fill in the blanks that my bible software is not meeting - Logos 4 has made some wonderful inroads into things that have cause other to write external tools to support Logos 3 shortcomings - but at the end of the day if I want to know where my files are stored or how much space they take up or be able to control when my passge guide starts generating then that does not make me any less a person than the next who does it simply makes me an individual - yet sometimes Logos do give the impression and say things that you are less of a person because you simply want a little bit more control over you bible study software than they are willing to give.
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I too am wondering about the question if v. 3 and v. 4 will actually be able to move forward. The statement that you don't have to upgrade is true, but if we want new Logos resources I would bet that will change and we will have to upgrade to get them to work.
If you really want to have a Mac direction, then why bother with a windows version of 4.0? You could very easily discontinue the Windows development of Logos and stick with Mac side and become the Mac software developer. I think the answer is that you suspect or maybe fear that what you say about the direction the world is going is not really true. Market share of Mac increases but the vast majority of PCs have and will for a very long time be Windows based. To say we are going this way and you don't have to upgrade is I think a poor business decision.
There is a lot to really like in v. 4. If you get the interface performance back to the speed of 3.0 then I will be happy. That improvement will keep me as a Logos 4.0 user. But I sure wish it looked more like a Windows program.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
That's why you can buy and keep an old car, and that's why we very intentionally did not make Logos 4 replace Logos 3. You can keep Logos 3, and every feature that worked there is still there, just as it was. We're even ensuring it keeps running on Windows 7, etc.
Personally I don't want to keep 3.0. I want to be able to move foward but one question that remains, in terms of keeping 3.0 is will users of 3.0 be able to continue to purchase resources i.e. will the resources be backwards compatible ? If a user does keep 3.0 and 4.0 runninig will there be a seamless install and unlock in both systems. Will 3.0 users be able to continue to purchase resources via download or will they be required to purchase by CD-ROM to get a custom install that handles the activation process that you say is being removed (which I think is a good step foward).
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hiI really like the concept of the new version 4
I have a few questions
Is Libronix going to be supporting version 3 with new resources?
Will version 3 still be supported with new add-ons ?
Will version 4 be marketed as an upgrade, or will it be classed as a totally new product?
Will version 3 be classed as the professional version
and version 4 a light version
On the forums people are asking when version 4 is coming out will they be disappointed
as they are very familiar with version 3 layout and expecting improvements on the speed issues etc
mick
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To me, another way to view this is similar to shift or a transition period from more "primitive technology" to more advanced technology. The shift will occur; it is certain. It's all about how it will occur and how long it will take to occur. There was a transition from cassette to cd and it took place over a rather lengthy period of time. Some people jumped right in and others were much slower. What seems to be key is how the transition is managed. People will "warm up" to the next version and having one "alongside" one another may be one of the best ways to proceed--not necessarily both versions on the same system but learning about the newer version in a piecemeal fashion. Given new resources will work on both as a caveat. I hope this comes across as positive and helpful.
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I just installed v. 4 from the dvd and have seen the interface and some of the menu displays and I can say that if I had never used other versions of Libronix, I would love what I see and want more of it. However, I have [:)] and I have so much time invested in learning previous versions, that it is hard to let go and re-learn. The re-learning part, viewing tutorials etc., asking questions in forums-will be so time consuming and yes, frustrating. I want to study the Bible, not learn how to use a software program, all over again. Now, that was a gut-level statement and it is precisely where I am. One foot in each camp.David Housholder said:So for this beta have you been able to bring in any testers who have never used Logos before? It would be interesting to see how they respond to the user interface having never grown accustomed to an older version.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Our goal is to help more people do more and better Bible
study....My understanding of Mac philosphy is that when you turn it on for the first time, you know exactly what you need to do within a very short time period. I must admit I didn't have that feeling right away. Now I like to play with the software and learn every conceivable feature, but most people, if they can't get it and feel at home within 2 minutes, will loose interest. Actually in today's commercial driven society it has to be sold to them in about 30 seconds.
The first thing I would have them see is the below picture...obviously decorated and appealing. Whatever they would select would open to the right and the window below would become a "want to take that further?" window If they open the library the buttons would change to things like help me find a resource, show me information about the book, etc. reading a passage would give options like "what other translations are available? how do I study this passage? etc. You have to hold the back of the Bicycle long enough for them to take off on their own. Otherwise they won't be interested in learning how to ride
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Philip Spitzer said:Bob Pritchett said:
Our goal is to help more people do more and better Bible study....
My understanding of Mac philosphy is that when you turn it on for the first time, you know exactly what you need to do within a very short time period. I must admit I didn't have that feeling right away. Now I like to play with the software and learn every conceivable feature, but most people, if they can't get it and feel at home within 2 minutes, will loose interest. Actually in today's commercial driven society it has to be sold to them in about 30 seconds.
The first thing I would have them see is the below picture...obviously decorated and appealing. Whatever they would select would open to the right and the window below would become a "want to take that further?" window If they open the library the buttons would change to things like help me find a resource, show me information about the book, etc. reading a passage would give options like "what other translations are available? how do I study this passage? etc. You have to hold the back of the Bicycle long enough for them to take off on their own. Otherwise they won't be interested in learning how to ride
I like the thinking Philip. One could debate forever and a day over what actually should go there - and one day we will have eterntiy to do so.. .although at that point all this will be moot by then ;-)
I am glad you didn't put 'Where do you want to go today?' in your opening message that's been used before along with 'Start me up!' but the idea is good and not-threatening. I have to adult users in my house who use the computer limited time, simly because we only have the one computer and it sits on my desk. The Logos 4 interface as it stands would be intimidating to them. This is a much softer approach I think they would find more useful than the newspaper in your face layout dominating the home page. Maybe this page could have another button to say 'Read some excepts from my books' that would open up the newspaper interface. Another one might be 'Catch up on the latest Logos Blogs'
Bob please consider a softer approach to the home page in order to better reach those people whom you say you are trying to reach. The newspaper layout while I personally don't find visually appealing at the moment (I'll do a separte post on that so not to clutter this one and make it become like the newspaper.) The newspaper approach to me is really more geared to the serious bible study user than the new user. Having a softer approach like this would introduce them to it when they are ready rather than shoving it in their face as the current approach does.
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AndrewMckenzie said:
Bob please consider a softer approach to the home page
First impression is very important and you sorta had this going in the Logos 3.0 homepage. However it seemed like you held the hand for the first step so you could toss them in on the second. It needs to be more of a gradual letting go of the bike then a "I'll swing you back and forth on your bike, count to three on on three push you as far as I can and hope you get far enough to count a success." The extra assistance has to go beyond the homepage. I like andrews suggestion about having the current homepage content as options to suggest.
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Bob,
Appreciate the comments. Thus far I'm one of those very happy with version 4. I'm a long time computer user who has built more computers than I've bought, done computer programming in different venues, and have spent quite a bit of time working with and using Linux over the years. Gentoo has been my favorite Linux distro precisely because of the degree of customization.
That to say, I like options. But options can often get in the way. When it comes to Bible software I want something that works. With Logos I don't have to dig in if I don't want to. It is simple enough to do work without a huge time investment to just learn the software. But there are more complex things well worth learning, giving more control over the software. Despite my love of tweaking things, I never went real deep with Logos 3. I learned the software fairly well and was satisfied with that.
From where I stand Logos 4 gives more control, not less, to people with my sort of approach to Bible software. There are a few exceptions but some of those I think are glitches that will be fixed along the way. Thus far I'm very pleased. Some things turned me off at first (can we say collections?) but as I've learned more about them (which did not take long!) I really like the changes. Some tweaks are still needed (we really should be able to move around multiple resources in a collection at once) and a number of bugs are left to fix but this power user says great job!
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Thanks Bob, I don't see anything patronizing. BTW, I am one of the "don't know what's under the hood, but I can sure drive it (and the faster the better)" group.
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As a seminary student there is one feature which I am starting to use more and more as I forego paper books for e-books: markup tools. I was shocked that this was not available and to hear that it probably wouldn't be. I do a lot of reading in Libronix and use the highlighter a lot. Even a simple highlighter (like what happens when you attach a note to selected text in v. 4) would be very much appreciated.
My guess it new users will like it as much as new users have liked version 3, but version 3 users (in the same way as many here) will moan over having to completely relearn the interface. Especially those who paid for Morris Proctor's seminars.
Beyond that I completely understand Logos' strategy and I think it will be good for a majority of people. I can tell you the vast majority of seminary guys at my school that have Logos are using outdated versions of v. 3 (or older), and have never thought to update the software or resources. I am glad that this is going to be done automatically.
I would be curious to hear from those who use BibleWorks or other packages whether v. 4 leaves out exegetical features that non-Logos software have that would prevent students and professors from converting.
In the end, once Logos gets training videos up for v. 4 and we get used to the new way of doing things we'll look back at version 3 the same way we currently look back at the original Libronix version.
Laptop: Windows 7 Professional x64, Intel Dual-Core, 2GB RAM, Radeon X1600
Home: Vista Ultimate x86, AMD Quad-Core, 4GB RAM, GeForce 8400 GS 512MB
Work: Windows 7 x64, Intel Dual-Core, 8GB RAM, Radeon X1300/X1550
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Hey Bob, thanks for the perspective. I'm not a MAC guy, been dealing with PCs much like Chris and have built more then I have purchased. I just loaded up off the DVD yesterday and was shocked at the interface, but there were aspects that I liked and as you put it non-geek users may like as well. Although I am just getting started on investigating how v4 will perform - I am not looking at the speed at the moment knowing that is still being tweaked (which is a good thing [:)]) - but the functionality.
I don't know how many others use the highlighting capabilities but I did use them often and with great results. In small groups I would use LOGOS and be able to highlight and make notes right on the system so I hope I will not lose that capability or the time/work already invested. The other is my journal notes that I have made - again I have an extensive listing of verses with personal annotations - and don't want to lose them either.
As for collections, I jsut started playing with them - I have quite a few of these as well - and it seems like the new tool to create collections is definitely going down the right path. It's fast and gets a lot of what I am looking for especially if I am preparing a study.
To me my bible software needs to be an extension of my hardcopy sword I take with me when I am not carrying my notebook. I am willing to put in the time to learn the software as long as I see that it makes my bible study time more efficient and gives me the chance to spend more time digging into the Word then tweaking.
Working for a software company, Logos will never make everybody happy, but if the true intent is to live up to their mission statement of being a conduit to help more people dig deeper and grow spiritually then that will be the true sign of a successful release.
I have been reading as many posts as I can and listening. There are issues/concerns out there, but this is a BETA program. I am interested in seeing how v4 grows from this release as it moves to a general release.
In Christ,
Ken
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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I was just about to post this reply to Bob’s post and saw that yes Bob you are asking for things that are missing and that you will work with us. Thank you, That will render a part of this message obsolete, but at the same time this is also rational for our concerns. I have used Logos products since the summer of 1997 because they are the best… Please keep it that way! Also please consider what I say here about a dual platform… I believe that it serves both types of users. I am sorry for the length of this post, but maybe it too shows that I/we are concerned about a great product and keeping it that way for I mean nothing negative about you or Logos, I just pray that it gets even better!
Bob, you state that we don't need to upgrade... and that we can keep 3.0. Yes, that is true of any program, but unless development continues with that product, when the next OS comes out, the program dies in the water. Maybe it lives for a second OS, but that is it. Now, if you are doing an Adobe thing with Photoshop Elements and Photoshop CS and running the two programs side by side, having different resources for both or making them intercompatable but less features on one, that is fine. I would fully support that and say that yes your direction is fine and even good for a majority of users... however; I use a computer for three things Email, Bible Study/Sermon Writing, and Digital Photography. I use 16... yes 16 individual hard rives on my computer, plus my backups. Why 16, because I need reliable storage space. I could get by with fewer HD's if the larger units were more reliable, but alas, they are not. Instead, I use 250 to 500 gig HD's that are reliable and then I back them up so that I don't loose my images or other data. I currently have over 5 TB's of HD space on line at this moment... Am I a computer geek... well only if I am so by virtue of having built my last computer and needing to put my Logos data on a specific HD for safety and storage purposes.
I love it when I don't have to waste my time to get things installed, working, and the like... but realistically, we are not there yet. HD's are way too unreliable for those who have thousands of dollars of data on the computer to just let the software provider put things willy-nilly on the system... we still need a "reasonable" amount of control of where it goes. I don't have to be able to set the program in such a way that the program is installed at HEX address xxxxxx, rather I need to be able to install it at M drive, or drive R. I know that I am not the normal computer user, but I am not that far out there. Do we make up 80% of the market, no; but I suspect that we make up close to 10% of the market. We got your product in the first place from Logos, because it gave us more control than the others, not just location wise but also resource wise.
I wrote an email the other day on the forum, asking about renaming my C drive to X drive and then putting in a new C drive leaving the OS on the X drive... I did not say X because I was leaving the actual name to be determined later... it was because I was working backwards in my drive structure... I already have Drive's Y and Z in use. No, I am not a geek, but I still have needs that have to be met.
As far as the auto synchronizing is concerned, hey that is great. Back when we alpha and beta tested Libronix 1, I asked for a way to determine what books were licensed to me that were not on my system, because I was over 1200... some 8 years later, it sounds as if you are doing something about it. I am greatly pleased... all the way up to when I have to be connected to the internet to use the product. (yes, we can chose to work off line… but for how many days until the software ceases to work and requires us to hook up to the internet?) I use my laptop in many locations that either do not have internet or where they charge unreal fees for it, such as while I am out shooting images in the wilds of the US or in other countries, or in the deepest darkest part of Hartsfield airport in Atlanta GA.
Two years ago, for my 30th anniversary, my wife took me to Costa Rica for 2 weeks on a photo expedition. Did you know that in much of Costa Rica they do not have internet? And Costa Rica is not a 3ed world country! While I was on that trip, I had to work on my sermon for when I returned... Logos/libronix V4 with its need to Sync... Could have been useless to me on that trip with a need to be Synchronized... then I would not have gotten one thing done... am I a geek? No, but as a pastor, I have needs that have to be met by the software that I use.
Again, if you are talking about having a dual platform as I mentioned above, then I can support Version 4... Nevertheless, unless a dual platform is what you are saying, how could I support a new platform that takes away the functionality of a program that I am heavily invested in, and make it so that my arms are tied behind my back and now makes using that same software harder in some cases and impossible in others? I fully understand that no software programmer wants his work stolen and used on more computers than it is licensed for... as a photographer... I do not want my images on any computer that has not paid for them as well... but making it so that we have to have the machine connected to the internet is not the way to do it... hey, it even kills mission work.
Well, I have gone on long enough here... but I know that you are a smart man, and you get my point... whether you agree with it is another issue. However, this I leave with you: I have invested many hundreds of Dollars, even to the point of it equaling enough to buy a very nice car... I would not want to loose it because the company that promised us free engine upgrades forever, "dumbed the program down" so far that they took out the functionality of said product. If said company comes out with a new product and it runs side by side with the power product, then I can be very happy with it... we have lost nothing, and gained much because now maybe many more people are able to get into the Word of God, but just to get more into the Word of God, at the expense of those who need as much of the product as they can get... shame on that company for taking it away...
As I close, I give you an analogy that has blown Michigan away... In the year 2008 we had a governor's race going on here in Michigan... one of the political ads that our governor ran had this punch line... "If you think that we have done a lot already... just wait until you see what we will do in the next 4 years." You know, today, Michigan's economy is virtually the worst in the nation... it has only been 2/3’s of one year since the election... and I am blown away! Our governor wants to increase our personal income tax as well as business taxes… blown away… you bet by the insanity of our governor. My congregation can no longer pay for the heat and light bill, let alone my salary, and our Governor wants to take more money out of the pockets of our parishioners to support the state government.
I love the libronix product, it has revolutionized my sermon writing and saves me many hours of work because the information is at the tips of my fingers, please don't make me go back to doing things the old way... as then I would never get to see the sick and shut-ins.
Thanks for listening to my concerns Bob... yes, to some extent, my concerns are self-serving... I do not want more work on my plate... but I also do not want Logos/Libronix to go under because we both loose... somewhere there has to be a compromise... even if it means that it comes in the form of an add-in to give us back the tool bar and heaven forbid... a location manager and such.
By the way, Bob, it is not about my not wanting to change... I love good changes... but change for the sake of change in a good product is not good change. I really do not want to see Libronix go under because of what I believe is a bad business decision in a very poor economic environment.... fore then we both lose!
Pastor Kelly Todd
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Yes Bob, I understand the analogy of cars and camera, etc. I have long since quit looking under the hood of my car -- I get in, I turn the key, it starts and I'm off or I call the dealer. There's just nothing under there that I can work on any more, although 45 years ago I rebuilt cars, pulled engines, dropped in new short block, and had a ball doing it. I have a digtal SLR and yet would prefer my 35mm because it gives me the control over the imaging that I want. Depth of field, exposure control, are very important to me, and yet 21st c. digitals have gone back to the age of the box brownie -- every one has one, and every one thinks they're a photographer, when in fact there are really few of us out there [8-|]
Don't worry, I'm not abandoning Logos -- I've got a more than a few $ pointed toward the pre-pub program.
But, I'd just like to be able to do a little more tweaking with Logos. A lot of folks still walk into Wal-Mart, or Best Buy and walk out with a computer. My last two desktops have been custom built, and even my last two laptops have been ordered from Dell with a whole lot of customization -- simply because I don't want someone telling me how they think I should do my computing. But, I love ya man -- so please be patient with me (us) and we'll get through this together.
Blessings Bob
Dale
Blessings,
Dale Durnell
Coming to you from Henryetta Oklahoma (45 miles south of Tulsa, and 85 miles east of OKC)
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Bob Pritchett said:
We need
your feedback to know what's a good streamlining and where we need to leave
some user control.I think it's too early to know all the answers here. I've just had this a few days and am still trying to make it fit how I worked with version 2 ;-) (slight exaggeration there). It took me a while to get used to 3 and it will take me a while to get used to version 4. Give us some time to vent our initial frustration and discover the gems that (I'm sure) are still hiding in some unexpected places.
I understand the Mac analogy, but don't forget the Vista analogy. Macs are designed to be easy to use - and they are. Vista was designed to be easy to use - and it isn't (I just got Vista and find it both confusing and annoying).
All my favorite programs offer a customizable interface. It's one of the reasons I like Firefox more than IE. And those who prefer to customize their interface tend to expect customizability from the best programs on the market - and almost all of them avoid Macs for that reason. Customizability realizes that different people want things to work differently. I don't want to figure out how to use the program the way it was intended, I want the program to work the way I intend it to work. The best programs are designed to do this.
Beyond the interface:
That said, I have always thought that Logos would support those who invested in the extras, e.g.'s PBB's and the SermonFile builder. I know these are not the most used features, but Logos' philosophy here seems to have shifted, since we see no promise to continue to support those functions in version 4. I don't have the PBB, and wouldn't buy it at the price it's offered now. But I do have the Sermon File builder and have been surprised at how helpful it's been for me, even though I still have about 10 years of sermons to put into the thing! The PBB program always seems to have been somewhat tentative, but I never heard that about the Sermon File builder.
On the other hand, I've been using Logos products for a long time. I know and admire your company. I'm sure your philosophy and business sense will put both the PBB and the SermonFile addin back in, at least in terms of compatibility with resources, if not continued support of the programs themselves. That's who you are as a company. That's why LLS resources still work with vesion 3 (after how many years?). End the PBB program, if you have to, but don't shut down those who have invested time and money into it. Let them at least keep what they've produced.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
Customizability realizes that different people want things to work differently. I don't want to figure out how to use the program the way it was intended, I want the program to work the way I intend it to work. The best programs are designed to do this.
Amen.
I'm struggling to think of any windows program that doesn't offer users a great variety of customisation options. It may well be that the majority of users do not take advantage of these possibilities, but does that mean that those who do seek to make the program function according to their preferences should be denied the possibility of doing so.
I would be interested if any correlation has been done between "power users" (the 10% who use data-types) and purchase of additional books. It may well be that you attract many new users to buy base products but how many of these then buy extra resources compared to those of us who tinker under the hood?
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AndrewMckenzie said:
Bob please consider a softer approach to the home page in order to better reach those people whom you say you are trying to reach. The newspaper layout while I personally don't find visually appealing at the moment (I'll do a separte post on that so not to clutter this one and make it become like the newspaper.) The newspaper approach to me is really more geared to the serious bible study user than the new user. Having a softer approach like this would introduce them to it when they are ready rather than shoving it in their face as the current approach does.
I've added my specific thoughts on the newspaper layout here
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AndrewMckenzie said:
I like the thinking Philip. One could debate forever and a day over what actually should go there
I like the thinking of Philip and Andrew. The default "newspaper" will not succeed as it is a pure Logos "push". If it is switched off then the blank screen challenges you where to go next. So put up the suggested selection pane e.g. go to a decent Home page OR one of many non-blank default layouts OR a saved layout.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Hi, I am the wife of a user and I am a novice at this. I am not interested in "dropping the engine" out of the car and putting in a new transmission, or whatever. Talking tech doesn't interest me, I don't visit the forums or anything like that. I just wanted to say that I am very impressed with the new Logos, the little bit I have seen. I like the SPEED of the searches, compared to Logos 3. Great job!![:D]
Thank you,
Leigh
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Bob -
Thanks for sharing. I see nothing at all patronizing about anything you said. I have read through the post carefully twice. I am THRILLED with the direction of v3. I will post a detailed review soon, but I am really digging the program.
I think your philosophy will pay off, business-wise. I hope I am right. For me anyway, this is a welcome change of direction for the software and I can't wait to see the finished product.
BTW, how long is the Beta testing expected to last? Do you have a target date, or is it more like "when it is done."
100% encouragement and support - - I am more excited than I ever have been about the best reason to own a computer: Logos!
Jerry
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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Pastor....
I'm HOPING you meant "I'm thrilled with the direction of V4" and not "...V3"
[:P]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Yes Robert - thanks for the catch!
I am THRILLED with the direction of V4!
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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I think by the time 4.1 is here we wil all look back and wonder what the fuss was about, I am looking forward to using v4 for everyday use, being a software developer myself I know how hard it is redesigning a fully working program from scratch, and think Logos is headed in the right direction.
We gripe and groan cos by nature we hate change, but then we adapt.. human natire at its best..
I think the "problems" seem huge in the beta, cos its so new, but the more I play whe more I like it, I would disagree that v4 isnt a madatory replacement, IMO I think it needs to be.
Logos 4 is definitely the the way forward, albeit with a couple of wrinkles now, but the future looks bright, I look forward with excitement to the final release of 4.0 and the extras bits (hopefully) promised by 4.1.
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Bob Pritchett said:
With all that said, I know we need to make it work. We need
your feedback to know what's a good streamlining and where we need to leave
some user control. It's clear we can't assume your C: drive has enough space;
but I don't think that means we need to bring back the Location Manager report
and tell you file sizes and version numbers.Bob, we asked and you gave us a better Library Management. We also asked, but now you don't want to give us a better Resource Management because you figured that Cloud Management was what we really needed!? Please don't go the Vista route and learn the bitter lesson that MS lost sight of the "user perception/experience". I've learned not to hark back to v3 for my Collections and Logos is early enough in the beta process to give us the Windows 7 solution to Resource Management [I've dealt with the Mac analogy elsewhere].
Specifically, I thought to download v4 whilst waiting for the DVD to arrive in Oz. I thought I could manage 640 MB out of my budget of 4 GB for the month. There was a glitch during downloading and my usage meter told me I used about 1600 MB. So now I've used 55% of my budget in 39% of the month! Then you want me to accept unconditional downloads of missing and updated resources, and put up with 6 hours of re-indexing! I agree it solves a problem from your end, for which you have the statistics from v3, but please consider the stats at my end. Further, many of my resources are deliberately missing as I have no intention of ever using the Targums files. I've also got several versions of the Merriam Webster dictionary, and BHS Westminster bible. I'd like Resource Management to assist me in dealing with these issues as I don't necessarily want to remove them nor update every time a typo is fixed. I'd like it to move my resources to another location without the drawbacks of v3 e.g. all updates will be stored at my non-default location, especially if it continues to store what appear like data files in the v4 resource location.
Please continue to provide installation DVD's with periodically updated resources.
Bob Pritchett said:Are some people going to hate it? Yes. Some people refuse to
have an email address.Some people don't have an internet connection, but desire to use the program. Are they going to be disadvantaged, even if a friend can act as an intermediary?
Bob Pritchett said:Logos 4 isn't a mandatory replacement, and it doesn't take
away anything you have invested in. It's an optional new product that works
with the content you've invested in. I hope you'll like it, and I hope you'll
help us make it better. But if not, I hope you'll still realize that it has
value for a new, different user, and that, correctly done, it can help even
more people get into better Bible study.I could rephrase that as "if you don't like what I give you in v4 then stay with v3"!
Bob, you need to give us more time to adjust, perhaps remove some of your pre-conceptions about what I'm asking even now to "help make it better". I'm truly impressed with the product, that you took full advantage of the new windowing technology of .NET, finally got to use database technology, and listened to most of what we asked for 4 years ago - - when we also knew the technology that was available but you had the vision to take it a step beyond most of our expectations. I just ask that you continue to listen.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
Then you want me to accept unconditional downloads of missing and updated resources, and put up with 6 hours of re-indexing! I agree it solves a problem from your end, for which you have the statistics from v3, but please consider the stats at my end. Further, many of my resources are deliberately missing as I have no intention of ever using the Targums files. I've also got several versions of the Merriam Webster dictionary, and BHS Westminster bible. I'd like Resource Management to assist me in dealing with these issues as I don't necessarily want to remove them nor update every time a typo is fixed. I'd like it to move my resources to another location without the drawbacks of v3 e.g. all updates will be stored at my non-default location, especially if it continues to store what appear like data files in the v4 resource location.
Agreed Dave. I would like to delete the abbreviated version of TDNT and middle LSJ.
I would like to store my resources on the
partition of my netbook and not on the C: partition (this is what I have done with Logos 3.0 which thankfully allowed for the easy install of Logos 4.0)Microsoft, Antivirus programs, regular other programs all allow automatic updates, scheduled updates or the ability to turn off updates (for manual updating at a desired time). I'm sure that all of these other companies have made these options available for very good reasons. I know that those of us who make use of them do so for good reason.
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Bob,
I too appreciate you taking the time to explain the philosophy behind this version and I can understand the desire to go forward in this development.
When I first installed V.4, I was a little taken back due to it being so vastly different. It is true that it was like going from the older Word versions to Word 2007 with the "dreaded ribbon."![:)] It took some getting use to, but in time it became easier. (But there are still things that I like better in the older versions, as it was quicker to accomplish certain tasks.)
While it is true that most households now have a computer, I am not sure what the percentage is of internet connection. Also to keep in mind is the type of internet connection. Recently I returned to the States, to take care of my step-father after multiple surgeries. While there I only had "dial-up" connection to the Internet!!! As a result, my time on the internet was vastly reduced. I even tried to establish a fast speed connection at my parents's house, and discovered that there was nothing availalbe at this location! So, we are not even talking about 3rd world countires. We are talking about those who live in the rural areas of the United States. They would be unable to use this "cloud computing" concept. And then bring in those who do live in foreign areas and this also diminishes the possibility of using Logos software, which is sad to even consider.
So, I guess what I am trying to say is that I do believe that there is a need to go forward in developing, always taking advantage of the latest technology, but at the same time, remembering the masses who do not have this technology.
Give us the improvements, but also allow us to have flexibility in changing things. I have used your software almost from the beginning (the days of CD Word!) and it has enabled me to have access to so much more information, at such a faster rate as I have prepared to teach of the Word of God. But I want to keep the focus on teaching the Word, and not having to do things more slowly for the benefit of "future technology."
And I would be greatly disappointed if PBBS were not included. I was just at the point that I was considering buying this program, as I have a lot of things I would like to put in a book format, that could be used by Logos, when I hear that PBBS would not be included. I do ask that you reconsider this.
I do appreciate all that Logos has given us and am looking foward to the continued improvements of the software.
Thanks for all of your hard work,
Charlene
Charlene
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I plan to adapt version 4. But since this is only Beta 1, I plan to adapt slowly. I prefer to let others find the best ways to set up the system. I do like the search speed. I am starting to understand and like the collections.
I don't miss 65 data types. But I do wish that we could prioritize our books in sub groups. I am thinking of groups such as: Bibles, language resources, commentaries, dictionary, general works, etc. I would keep in broad as there is a fair amount of overlap in many resources. For example you will not find information on the historical development of the doctrine of Christ in Bibles or language resources. But you might find such information in commentaries, theology books, dictionaries, etc. Instead of putting my favorite books in one pile, I would like them on 4-5 piles on my desk. I think that even the non geeks would do okay with such a change. The program could be set up with a default mode that remembers previous book choices for those who don't like to tinker.
I thought that management of Greek resources was difficult in Logos 3. There are 9 data types that are Greek related. It needed to be made simpler. There needs to be a way for someone to manage Greek resources without having to go through the whole library.
I think that it takes a different set up for someone who has 330 books in a Scholars library and someone who has 2,000 or more books. The program needs to be simple enough for a new user to do significant Bible study quickly. But it needs to have enough power to allow someone who has a significant amount of resources to limit and control that which he sees.
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Wayne,
I think that this is easier than you think.
I set up collections not so that they are faster searches but to limit the results to "types" of resources likely to give me what I need...example:
Yesterday I wanted to search a theology question.
I had no "Systematic Theology" collection set up yet so I just took 1 minute and created one like so:
title:systematic ANDNOT andersen
(I had the Andersen Forbes show up in this list...hmmm)
So in 20 seconds I had my search collection.
In another minute I did my search.
So what I've been doing has been on a "need to have" basis...see a need; create a collection for it.
My list is pretty basic:
All bibles
All English bibles
All Greek Texts
All Hebrew Texts
Systematic Theologies
Calvins commentaries
Owens Commentary
BECNT
BNTC
Bible Dictionaries
Bible Histstory and Culture
Archeology
Bible Images
Early Church Fathers
TEGNT
And so on...
That's the way I went about it on V3 and it seems to be a good plan on V4.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Kelly Todd said:
but for how many days until the software ceases to work and requires us to hook up to the internet?
You can run completely offline. In a worst case scenario, we can mail you a custom CD-ROM with your licenses. (We hope this is never, though -- it's a pain!) But even if you only connect once, to activate and sync licenses, you can then run forever offline.
You only need to connect to A) get updates,
get new licenses, C) sync your data. If your system is up and running, you can theoretically never connect to the Internet again.0 -
Richard DeRuiter said:
but Logos' philosophy here seems to have shifted, since we see no promise to continue to support those functions in version 4.
I'm sorry we weren't clear. We ABSOLUTELY intend to support both PBB and SermonFile in a future release. The problem is that PBB in particular uses Internet Explorer for its format and for display. And you've all made it clear how you felt about our reliance on IE, :-), so we need to do some serious work to re-do PBB.
This work will take some time, and the big open question is whether or not we can intelligently and automatically conver the HTML in existing PBB's to our core display engine, and whether or not the inevitable incompatibilities will be acceptable or if we'll need to require them to be rebulit. (My guess is it'll be worth rebuilding/recompiling them.)
The good news is future PBB titles will be built using the exact same format/engine as books we offer, meaning you will get infinitely scrolling books and other important features.
We also intend to have an easy way to share your PBB books with others via the web, but that takes so more code on the server side.
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Dave Hooton said:
Further, many of my resources are deliberately missing as I have no intention of ever using the Targums files.
This is a good example of why we want to help manage your resources. If you mess around with the files directly, you'll "hide" books by simply deleting them from your hard drive. Then you move to a laptop, or a new machine, and the book gets installed again from some CD-ROM, unless you manually copy over your hand-pruned resource directory.
Moreover, if you lose all your systems and call us for a new license file, there's no record of what you'd deleted, so you end up having to do it all over on a clean system.
If we have the software manage files and you use the interface (in the software or on the web) to mark as hiddren resources you don't want, then A) we can reflect that automatically on any system you want, and in your future web browser access to your books, and
we can even keep a record, so if you change your mind and want the targums later you don't have to call us to find the file names and then visit the FTP to get them, etc. You can just look at the list of hidden resources and check them off again.We do understand the need for choosing the right hard drive to install to, and we'll support that. We'll probably not support putting some books on drive 1, some on drive 2, etc. because in a day of 500 Gig drives that introduces a lot of complexity for little benefit.
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Bob Pritchett said:
We ABSOLUTELY intend to support both PBB and SermonFile in a future release.
Good to hear, but I was totally confident that you would.
Maybe, to calm the fears of some, the Beta 1 Release Notes forum article should reflect that commitment.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Bob Pritchett said:
because in a day of 500 Gig drives that introduces a lot of complexity for little benefit.
are you saying that Logos 4.0 will ship with a 500 gig hard drive....please oh please oh please!!!!
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Bob,
You asked us geeks two questions in your post:
- Are we in the majority? Clearly, no.
- Are we "turning something we did because we had to into something we want because we've always done it that way?" Perhaps.
But I want to ask you two questions:
- Can you and your development team accurately anticipate the users' needs--can you figure out what enough people need both now and in the next few years?
- If you can, can you afford the cost of meeting those needs, even those that may be arcane, or those that may not even exist yet?
And because I cannot count, here is a third question: Can you really afford not to meet those remote and future needs?
Look, Bob, on the one hand, I understand the need to simplify for the sake of customer support costs. You need to appeal to the middle in order to capture a reasonable section of the market. You cannot effectively bear the cost of answering thousands of "I lost my password" questions.
I do not believe you can be all things to all men. I do not believe it makes business sense for you to maintain development resources in areas that are beyond your core competencies. You cannot justify building features in areas that do not appeal enough people to warrant the cost. So you have to pull in your sails a bit--to focus on the core.
But, on the other hand, your audience is necessarily made up of geeks of one fashion or another--some tech geeks, but may other theology geeks and Greek geeks and even a few Hebrew geeks. If you appeal to the middle, how will you meet the needs of these very influential fringe members of your constituency? These users with out-of-the-mainstream requirements will often be the ones recommending your software to the vast and profitable middle.
If you compare the geek fringe to "tinkerers," I'm afraid you're missing the point. This isn't simply about tinkering. It's about marketing. It's about gaining a following.
So I have two suggested approaches:
1. The first is technical. Maintain the open API that you had in version 3. Yes, it will cost you to develop it. But an open architecture frees you from having to meet every possible need now and in the future. Let someone else do it. Take the iPhone slogan: "there's an app for that." Open the architecture so developers can build add-ons to address needs that either are not profitable for you or are not within the Logos core competencies.
You talked about this when you released version 3. It is more true now than before--the potential user needs are wider and the technical possibilities are more extensive.
Take the notes system as an example. Logos cannot possibly compete with all the note-taking options available. It would be expensive and futile for you to build the perfect note system. So let someone else do it. Make it possible to connect between your reader and other apps. You did this in version 3. Continue it in version 4.
2. The second is more directed at marketing. Build a community. I suggest you read Bob Garfield's The Chaos Scenario (http://thechaosscenario.net/blog/). The first two chapters are available for free download at his site. You should read this in part because it describes the effects of the digital revolution of which Logos is very much a part. But you should also read it because he gives an example of how one company turned geeks into evangelists and made a lot of money in the process. The company is Lego--the product is Mind Storms. I'll leave it to you to read the example (he gives a preview of it in the free excerpt on his website).
Marketing today is less about display advertising and more about building community--event planning. Logos has already understood this: you conduct "Camp Logos" programs. You listen to us geeks on the newsgroups and forums. You created community pricing. You released this private beta.
But you can gain an even greater marketing advantage by allowing developers to add-on to Logos in a way that meets the needs of the community--mainstream and niche needs alike. Doing so would make Logos even "stickier" than it already is--"I'm going to stick with Logos because Bibleworks doesn't have this app I rely on." It will allow developers to build better add-ons for the masses--note systems, handouts, RSS feeds, mobile apps--apps that will appeal to their own communities. You could even create an add-on store on Logos.com that would showcase these 3rd-party products.
And beneath all of this stands your elegant and essential foundation: securing your profitable place in this community.
Had I more time, I would extend the rationale for this kind of community to the nature of Body of Christ--this is something we should do as members fitly joined together. But I'll save that argument for later.
Let your people go. Keep the architecture open.
Steven H. Kaminski, Ph.D.
Steven Kaminski
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Bob Pritchett said:
I'm sorry we weren't clear. We ABSOLUTELY intend to support both PBB and SermonFile in a future release. The problem is that PBB in particular uses Internet Explorer for its format and for display. And you've all made it clear how you felt about our reliance on IE, :-), so we need to do some serious work to re-do PBB.
This work will take some time, and the big open question is whether or not we can intelligently and automatically conver the HTML in existing PBB's to our core display engine, and whether or not the inevitable incompatibilities will be acceptable or if we'll need to require them to be rebulit. (My guess is it'll be worth rebuilding/recompiling them.)
I am happy recompiling all mine, for the upside benifit it will be worth the while/wait..
Bob Pritchett said:The good news is future PBB titles will be built using the exact same format/engine as books we offer, meaning you will get infinitely scrolling books and other important features.
Excellent - if that means notes and highlighting thats fantastic news
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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I have never seen a company with as passionate of supporters as Logos. I am one of them. And please keep in mind that it is those same passionate supporters who are asking for pretty reasonable features.
I have personally spent upwards of $12,000 on my Digital Library. I have been personally responsible for more than 30 people purchasing Scholars Library or better, and I offer them hours upon hours of technical support and training because I know just how much this software can help with the study of God's word and the reading of books.
The ones who use all of the features of Libronix and appreciate the power tools and customizability may be a minority but I imagine that this minority is responsible for drawing and maintaining the majority. People don't spend $400-$1000+ on software without some pretty strong personal recommendations. Those recommendations are flowing probably most powerfully and effectively from this group. I know that what you are doing is an attempt to serve us well. Your note that started this off is concerning to me though; please don't forget us...your note makes me and probably many others wonder if that's what you're trying to do. I believe the best, and I again state that I have never been more happy with a product or a company than I am with Logos...
I think that there are more things I am excited about in v 4 than the things I am concerned about, but the concerns are real and they will keep many people hanging back in version 3. That is not something you want to do! Don't fragment your community. This is crucial, and the above note seemed to be telling your most loyal and influential clients: We know Vista has it's problems, don't worry, you can keep using XP. It was at that point that Apple became truly powerfulJacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
This work will take some time...
If you are saying we have two options, 1) wait another year or two for you to have 100% of the old features in place or 2) have the option of a less featured 4.0 now knowing that more goods will follow.... then I gladly take 2.
I guess I'm saying this more as a reminder for us users then for you, Bob [;)] We can always just hold on to 3.X until 4.0 supports the options we require in order to effectively do Bible Study the same or better then we've done it in the past. With that mindset the problem is not the features you offer at initial release but our abilities in patience.
There is only one thing that has my concern and that is the impression that notes and markups in 3.X will never carry over to 4.0. You have earned my trust that if you say verse lists, sentence diagramming, etc. are coming down the pike then I believe you. But to leave us with the option of 1)losing hard investments and work or 2)holding on to an antiquated program indefinitely causes us to ask whether or not our decision to take our library digital was truly a wise move. If we start doubting that, we will not recommend others take the same uncertain path and as another user said, you really do need our recommendations to continue getting new users.
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That 's great to hear Bob! I was looking at the release notes on Beta one and mourning a bit because of all my sermons (and yes all of my 1000+ PBB's!) It appeared there that PBB and SERMON file's were history. So Thanks for this clarification!Bob Pritchett said:I'm sorry we weren't clear. We ABSOLUTELY intend to support both PBB and SermonFile in a future release.
Actually Bob, if you'll keep the same XML format for the lbsupd file I can generate a PBB download script NOW for my website. (I've already tested it).Bob Pritchett said:We also intend to have an easy way to share your PBB books with others via the web, but that takes so more code on the server side.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Bob Pritchett said:Richard DeRuiter said:
but Logos' philosophy here seems to have shifted, since we see no promise to continue to support those functions in version 4.
I'm sorry we weren't clear. We ABSOLUTELY intend to support both PBB and SermonFile in a future release. The problem is that PBB in particular uses Internet Explorer for its format and for display. And you've all made it clear how you felt about our reliance on IE, :-), so we need to do some serious work to re-do PBB.
This work will take some time, and the big open question is whether or not we can intelligently and automatically conver the HTML in existing PBB's to our core display engine, and whether or not the inevitable incompatibilities will be acceptable or if we'll need to require them to be rebulit. (My guess is it'll be worth rebuilding/recompiling them.)
The good news is future PBB titles will be built using the exact same format/engine as books we offer, meaning you will get infinitely scrolling books and other important features.
We also intend to have an easy way to share your PBB books with others via the web, but that takes so more code on the server side.
Bob, you cannot imagine how much you made me happy by your very clear statement about pbb. PBB is very vital for me since it is the only way how to have other than English Bibles in Logos NOW, not in the uncertain future. If you make pbb's even better, more like the full-blood Logos books, wonderful. Visual Markups would be great. Notes - excellent. To be able to make pbb Bible a real Bible (to setup the type of the resource) would be just dream fulfilled.
Thank you for making it clear you plan to keep them. I will be more than happy to compile them again. Thank you again.
Bohuslav
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Philip Spitzer said:
If you are saying we have two options, 1)
wait another year or two for you to have 100% of the old features in
place or 2) have the option of a less featured 4.0 now knowing that more goods will follow.... then I gladly take 2.Phil,
What exactly is so compelling to you about 4.0 that you'd take a less feature-filled version of that over 3.0? I ask because right now my inclination would be to wait for the full feature set to come out and continue to use 3.0 until then. In other words, just the opposite of your choice. Perhaps I am missing a good bit here.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark A. Smith said:Philip Spitzer said:
If you are saying we have two options, 1) wait another year or two for you to have 100% of the old features in place or 2) have the option of a less featured 4.0 now knowing that more goods will follow.... then I gladly take 2.
Phil,
What exactly is so compelling to you about 4.0 that you'd take a less feature-filled version of that over 3.0? I ask because right now my inclination would be to wait for the full feature set to come out and continue to use 3.0 until then. In other words, just the opposite of your choice. Perhaps I am missing a good bit here.
I have to agree with you Mark.... there is way too much missing at the moment to make 4.0 a worthy program for public release. Some more work needs to be done in the area of resource management and releasing wthout a highlight/visual markup tool is just really a huge step backwards for this software.. highlight is something that was sorely missing from L1 and L2, we got it L3 and now in L4 it somehow has gone missing....that's like a corner store not having any cold cans of Coca-Cola in the fridge or a pub with no beer.... I'd much rather go through 12 months of beta testing to get some of these basic requirments back in there then see it out the door in 2 months time half baked... yes financial cycles and timing is vital in when Logos releases this thing but if the pub opens with no beer... the patrons may not stay.....and may not get the rave reviews they are expecting once the hype boils down...
To re-iterate how backwards not having hightlight in there is Quick Verse 4.0 offerend hightighting and that would have been maybe 15 years ago and here we are today and Logos 4 doesn't offer any basic highlight option at all.... go figure....
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