OT: For those teaching themselves Greek....this is a very good resource.

Robert Pavich

As one who has been teaching himself Greek for far too long...

I'd like to post a resource that I came across that seems to be useful.

It's a set of online flash videos by Ted Hildebrandt, teaching the basics of Koine Greek.

It's interesting and in my mind, worth going through. For those who know this stuff it will be a snooze fest....

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/New_Testament_Greek/Video/00-GTLearnVideos.html

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Bert Barnes

t's a set of online flash videos by Ted Hildebrandt, teaching the basics of Koine Greek.

Hildebrand also has a computer based program that goes through the exercises and lets you drill the facts home. I am busy using it at the moment as well as the animated lectures mentioned.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91947#Comment_91947

Hildebrand also has a computer based program that goes through the exercises and lets you drill the facts home. I am busy using it at the moment as well as the animated lectures mentioned.

Bert,

Yes...that's a great app.."Parsons Greek Tutor"....I love it....well worth the 29.00

Terry Poperszky

It's interesting and in my mind, worth going through. For those who know this stuff it will be a snooze fest....

Actually it was fun Robert, took me back many years to a room full of people chanting the parsing forms of the omega verbs. [:)]

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91956#Comment_91956

Actually it was fun Robert, took me back many years to a room full of people chanting the parsing forms of the omega verbs.

My wife laughed pretty hard when she heard me doing it... [:$]

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91973#Comment_91973

Robert, did you notice this link to the textbook that accompanies the lectures?

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/New_Testament_Greek/Text/MNTGTextbokWorkbook/MNTGTextbokWorkbook.html

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92218#Comment_92218

Robert, did you notice this link to the textbook that accompanies the lectures?

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/New_Testament_Greek/Text/MNTGTextbokWorkbook/MNTGTextbokWorkbook.html

Oh wow! No I didn't!

Thank you so much Terry....that's great!

Now if this stuff could just magically stay in my brain.... [:$]

Nord Zootman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92324#Comment_92324

Looks pretty good! I think I will promote this at our church. There are a couple of folks that I think would benefit. Thanks for the link.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92362#Comment_92362

Looks pretty good! I think I will promote this at our church. There are a couple of folks that I think would benefit. Thanks for the link.

And don't forget the "drilling software" it's great..

http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Tutor-Parsons-Technology/dp/1572643528

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92366#Comment_92366

I agree with the suggestions concerning these other products, and I understand they were given to help others out, but I must confess, I certainly do not understand the rules concerning being able to mention other resources and linking to them.

I did something like this last week and some of the older members of the board said it broke the rules of posting, was bad manners and it was taken down.

I mentioned a free product by name just like this post has, and just like this post Logos has a product that this free product could be said competes with it. This product on this page competes with all of the Logos products that teach languages, and to make things worse this product has a link to it.

I see nothing wrong with doing this and I understand the motive is to help others, but I have been trying to understand the gudelines and now I don't understand if this type of post is alowed or not, in my post I asked for someone from Logos to rule on a post like this, and I got no answer other than my post was taken down.

Once again I would ask Logos to explain if these types of posts are allowed or not, I think they should be, they mean no harm and can help a lot of people but they could cause Logos to lose a sale.

In Christ,

Jim

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92446#Comment_92446

I agree with the suggestions concerning these other products, and I understand they were given to help others out, but I must confess, I certainly do not understand the rules concerning being able to mention other resources and linking to them.

Jim, for me the part of the rules that I focus on is "competitor" If a software does something that Logos does, then it is a competing product and I won't mention it, or whine at other posters when they do. For me, what Robert pointed out, is not competition, if anything it enhances our ability to use what Logos provides.

I see nothing wrong with doing this and I understand the motive is to help others, but I have been trying to understand the gudelines and now I don't understand if this type of post is alowed or not

Jim, this IMHO is a grey area, and as with all those types of areas, we must use our own conscience. I have posted some things that I thought were innocent and ended up having to duck and run for cover. Other times I actually called Logos because I thought that something was so blatant that it needed to be removed, and was politely told to chill. Be convinced in your own mind/conscience and get ready to be bombarded by people who both agree and disagree with you.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92450#Comment_92450

Hmm...

I don't know...maybe I don't understand the rules either...

I was under the impression that if it was a product that either Logos sells and you mention a cheaper place, then you take money out of Logos' pocket or you mention a directly competing product where someone might have bought Logos' product but they would be pursuaded to buy a competitors product, then that was bad...

But to my knowledge, they don't make any Greek drilling software.....

I'm not the final word but that's the way I understood it....

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92450#Comment_92450

Terry, one of the current problems that I see, is the way this rule is being enforced currently, a few "old timers" appear to decide what is right and wrong rather than Logos deciding, by simply making the policy clear this would be done away with. To me this makes Logos look bad.

I do not intend to hurt Logos, but rather desire to see more people helped, such as was the purpose of this post.

Personally I have seen way too many people attacked for doing a simple act of kindness, because some one else thinks it will damage Logos.

I can certainly see not allowing advertisement of other companies, but to rule out free resources to help those that can not afford something that Logos sells, appears to be petty.

For example there are a lot of free public domain resources, made to work in free bible study programs made just for publlic domain resources, but it is considered wrong to point others to these resources because they might cause Logos to lose a sale.

I in fact take advantage of the free public domain resources so that I can spend more on my Logos copyrighted resources. but on top of that I also have a community pricing bid on every one of the public domain resources that Logos has!!! Why??? Because if it is in Logos the resource is more useful, and I know that from having the public domain book in a less useful format for some other program. But I am still thankful to have public domain books in a less useful format than none at all!

And yet some of the "old timers" have decide it is not polite to mention there is a work around for those that do not have unlimited resources...free programs!

Is Logos really threatened by such resources or do they actually end up helping Logos in the long run???

I know from using free programs that I would love to have all my public domain books in Logos, but I have over 5000 such books even at only 5 dollars each I can not afford that! But I will work towards that goal as Logos comes out with the books, but mean while I still have many of those books in a program that is way better than nothing!

However is such free resources actually hurting Logos like some believe, than I would gladly not mention those resources on this site, but if they actually help Logos in the long run, like I believe they do, I want to mention them!

In Christ,

Jim

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92465#Comment_92465

Robert, I understand your point, but I hope you can understand my point, for example let's not even talk about if Logos has a product that competes with the free product you mentioned, the guidelines clearly state:

1. Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc.

This product does not appear to fit these guidelines, since it is not a Logos product in anyway!

However, it is a great product and I think others should know about, but if I understand the first guideline it doesn't appear to be with in that guideline.

In Christ,

Jim

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92465#Comment_92465

I can certainly see not allowing advertisement of other companies, but to rule out free resources to help those that can not afford something that Logos sells, appears to be petty.

I agree, especially when Bob speaks positively of e-sword (freeware) as meeting a market that Logos currently doesn't target (or doesn't even want to, it seems, because of the support costs):

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/9906/83901.aspx#83901

That sounds to me like freeware and Logos are non-competitors.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92465#Comment_92465

It is not like Logos (historically) to squash conversation about complementary or even competing products. It has only been in the last few months that policies have been implemented. And I think that as long as we all play fair and our intention is to help one another they policy will not be strictly enforced. If we start complaining and fighting about policy with each other, that might be another matter.

This is a helpful post, and I would be surprised if anybody from Logos (except may Dan :-)) has an issue with it.

Bob (CEO) has historically been hands off about these types of things. Let's just be thoughtful and not malicious towards Logos and I bet the policies will not have to be enforced to the letter of the law.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92465#Comment_92465

Terry, one of the current problems that I see, is the way this rule is being enforced currently, a few "old timers" appear to decide what is right and wrong rather than Logos deciding, by simply making the policy clear this would be done away with. To me this makes Logos look bad.

Jim, all I can say is follow your conscience. If the "Old Timers' (or New comers for that matter) disagree, consider whether they have a point. If they have a point, fine. If in your opinion (based on what Logos has requested) they don't, then gently state your case and then ignore the firestorm of controversy that will follow [:D] . Now if Logos comes back and says you stepped over the line, that is a different matter entirely.

For instance, now that you mention it, I can see where Robert's post (and mine) violate the rules as written, and you may well be correct. But with that said, I don't think that it does violate the intent of those rules. Now I may be wrong, and if I am, I am more than willing to accept correction from the writer of the rules (i.e. Logos). I am doing what my conscience dictates.

Frankly, I am surprised at how well this forum functions given that it is populated by self professed sinners who are being forced to operate under grace.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92474#Comment_92474

1. Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc.

This product does not appear to fit these guidelines, since it is not a Logos product in anyway!

However, it is a great product and I think others should know about, but if I understand the first guideline it doesn't appear to be with in that guideline.

In Christ,

Jim

Jim,

Actually you are correct..that was my mistake....I had forgotten about the latest guidelines....

I was in the wrong for bringing it up....

But that does bring up a good point....could there be an OT forum where we could tout "non-competitive" products to help make us better bible students?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92465#Comment_92465

current problems that I see, is the way this rule is being enforced currently, a few "old timers" appear to decide what is right and wrong rather than Logos deciding, by simply making the policy clear this would be done away with.

I'm sorry that you see it this way. It is common for forums to request self-governing when the company does not employ a forum moderator. I don't see ambiguity in the guidelines. I suspect what you are seeing is the result of individuals making choices as to whether it's their responsibility to point out a post is called out. I pick and choose which posts I respond to because I don't want a reputation as an "enforcer"; however, I feel an obligation to step in when there is a blatant re-offender.

To me the guidelines merely state what is common courtesy and normal practice in forums. At times, we treat the forums as chat rooms which causes most of the difficulties - hence, we received formal guidelines. And as a minor correction, I am not an "old timer", I am merely old.[:D]

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92520#Comment_92520

I was in the wrong for bringing it up....

errrrr. Robert I want to post a jab like the olden days so badly, but I am resisting the urge. I will edify...I will edify.

You have been a true and consistent help to many in these forums. God bless ya. If you ever convince Logos to start an off topic forum please let me know in case I miss the thread :-)

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92529#Comment_92529

Robert, thanks for your comment, I am glad to see that you notice a problem.

I certainly am glad you brought those resources up and I see nothing wrong with it, and I doubt that Logos does, but according to the guidelines this is not a matter of doing what our conscience dictates or a matter of common courtesy. It is clear what the policy states, but I doubt that is the real intent of the policy.

I like your idea of OT forum that would relate to bible study resources that are free, I believe this would be very helpful to the Logos community, and I would not be shocked to see some of these free things lead to future sales for Logos. The free programs you have mentioned are helpful in learning Greek which could lead to more sales of Greek grammars and Lexicons. Or Logos could look at it like you sent others that , instead of one of our courses.

I know as a company Logos must make money, but until recently I have never felt that was their sole purpose, and I do not believe it is! I have spent 1000's of dollars on Logos products the last few years and much of it was because I thought Logos cared about me and others and because I had used free programs and now I wanted something better, and those free programs showed me my need for Logos!

Of course such an OT site should not be used to do harm to Logos or to promote commercial sites or products, it should only be used to provide a means of helping those in need of some free support.

I would vote for your suggestion, and I really would like to know where Logos stands on this issue, I don't plan on butting heads with Logos.

In Christ,

Jim

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92529#Comment_92529

errrrr. Robert I want to post a jab like the olden days so badly, but I am resisting the urge. I will edify...I will edify.

Philip,

Consider that a "stealth Jab"...

Brother, thanks for the kind words and I do miss your jabs...really I do... [:D]

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92520#Comment_92520

I was in the wrong for bringing it up....

I disagree [:D]

IMHO, you weren't.

I wrestle with Logos original language tools on a daily basis. A couple of times you have recommended resources that are helpful, don't compete with the Logos products and aren't worth spending money on [;)] My language training was 25 years ago, I have been out of the pastorate for 13 years, and it is extremely frustrating trying to remember the things I once knew and used and I am not getting full value out of my Logos investment because of it. I don't see you pointing out these resources as any different than Bob pointing out that e-sword is an excellent example of free bible software and that Logos is not competing in that market.

BTW, I am not upset with Jim for bringing this up, nor you for rolling over so easily (HUMOR). Nor am I upset with Logos for the way in which it has enacted it's policies. [:P]

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92548#Comment_92548

I want to second the idea that I am not upset with anyone about this subject, I am just at the point where I would like to better understand what the policy really is and means.

It is not just for my sake, I have seen some folks mention things and just get knocked about by this rule and then the next person can say nearly the same thing and it is allowed. That gives a certain appearance that I don't think Logos needs, so I am trying to understand what is going on.

And I agree with Terry, Roberts comments were helpful, as were the comments of others that took some heat! But being helpful or not does not fit into the guidelines. Or do they? I hope they do.

In Christ,

Jim

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92562#Comment_92562

Guys,

I'm not upset but I DID forget the stated rule that it's only Logos products to be discussed so yes...I was wrong...

I'm hoping that Logos will go ahead and make an OT forum for this stuff because it's valuable....as Terry said.

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92529#Comment_92529

You have been a true and consistent help to many in these forums. God bless ya. If you ever convince Logos to start an off topic forum please let me know in case I miss the thread :-)

I too would like to be apart of this new forum. Personally, I think the new policy is a bit much but I can understand it. I would have to be an extremely angry, upset, and frustrated customer that just never got any help from anyone to post flaming threads in order to burn the line connecting other users.

(Logos has never once even made "me" think of it. In fact, they have some extra lee-way from the Last-Chance offer thread. That was truly fantastic customer service.)

I mean after all we are bible readers and I would hope bible followers; (see Matt 7:3)

In Christ's Peace an Love,

William

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92520#Comment_92520

IBut that does bring up a good point....could there be an OT forum where we could tout "non-competitive" products to help make us better bible students?

Hi Robert,

Right on! I would love to have just what you suggest. How do we go about to get such a forum? (You and Phil and others are MVP's-don't you have some kind of pull? [:)] )

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92820#Comment_92820

Right on! I would love to have just what you suggest. How do we go about to get such a forum? (You and Phil and others are MVP's-don't you have some kind of pull? )

Alas....no pull here...[:'(]

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92820#Comment_92820

That does bring up a good point....could there be an OT forum where we could tout "non-competitive" products to help make us better bible students?

I would love some Logos comment on this. Because that is exactly one of the functions that the forum has served for years. The vast majority of our discussion is about Logos, how to use it, suggestions, tips, etc. And there are some extremely helpful discussions of software (and nonsoftware) that we use outside of Logos to help make us better more efficient students of the Bible. This was never a problem until very recently, and I think that the only real issues that Logos has had recently are people trying to sell off portions of their library (directly competing with Logos), pointing to other sites selling Logos resources cheaper than Logos.com (direct competition, but I wish they wouldn't care on this one), and talking about direct competitors (again, totally disagree that this should be banned unless we are pointing links).

Bob hates policies and this is why; I hate them too. Let's just be thoughtful and freely post on things that are helpful and not direct competition (like don't post on the greatness of BibleWorks. This isn't the place). I bet if we're all thoughtful and respectful , even if we're in violation of the letter of the law here, we'll be fine, because we are well within the spirit of the law.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93060#Comment_93060

This isn't the place). I bet if we're all thoughtful and respectful , even if we're in violation of the letter of the law here, we'll be fine, because we are well within the spirit of the la

Jacob, if we had all been thoughtful and respectful, Dan wouldn't have won the argument with Bob about policies for the forum.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93064#Comment_93064

This isn't the place). I bet if we're all thoughtful and respectful , even if we're in violation of the letter of the law here, we'll be fine, because we are well within the spirit of the la

The problem is that there IS a policy now and as Christians...we don't get to follow or not follow based on how it suits our goals...right?

We honor Logos' rules while in the mean time respectfully asking them to give us a forum to discuss products and things that will help us, while not posting direct competition links...

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93400#Comment_93400

We honor Logos' rules while in the mean time respectfully asking

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93407#Comment_93407

Terry,

I got a bounce-back on your email.

how about you contact me?

rpavich at gmail

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93400#Comment_93400

he problem is that there IS a policy

I have been following this thread and at this point I would like to make a few comments:

1. Robert, you are correct. There is a policy and thus we are to stick to it. At times someone will break the rule. My personal opinion is that we should not pounce on people very quickly. If we notice that the rule is broken by someone who has posted their first post or their first 50 posts, that person might not be aware of the policy and the whole thread can blow over quickly without much of a problem, or a gentle reminder (not a harsh one) that the forum discourages links and mentioning competitive products.

2. This thread reveals (not to my surprise) that many dont like the policy and it is right to suggest a change or compromise and this has been and will continue to be done.

3. The product mentioned on this thread IS A COMPETITIVE PRODUCT. The product teaches you NT Greek. LOGOS publishes many resources for the beginner to learn NT Greek. Thus it is a competitive product.

4. This thread reveals that what one thinks is a competitive product, another thinks is not. This would be true of probably 80% of all off topic threads listing other resources from other sources other than Logos. So how do you determine a competitive product if one person simply says that "conscience should be your guide"?

5. I for one am happy that this product was mentioned and for me (as for many) it enhances my studies and does not compete in any way with Logos. But according to the guidelines, if one says this product is not competitive, then there is a real problem. WHO determines what is competitive or not? And Logos will have to add to their policy the names of all competitive products (something I suspect they will not do, and for good reason).

6. So while I am happy with this thread and the links that enhances my Bible study, and while this thread has offered no threat in my opinion to LOGOS, I would also say that when a person suggests a resource that is in another digital format, that would also not be a threat to LOGOS and should not be suppressed by others.

7. I think the policy perhaps should be open to interpretation as it has been on this thread. Perhaps LOGOS means that there are clear instances when there is a violation...when someone is clearly using the forum to sell a so called competitor's product and that would be wrong. But the mere mention of them should not be relegated as a bad word or breaking rules.

8. LOGOS should reserve the right to delete any thread that THEY feel is harmful to the cause of LOGOS. Problem solved immediately.

Perhaps these comments help?

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93428#Comment_93428

I have been following this thread and at this point I would like to make a few comments:

I really appreciate your comments. Our understanding of the guidelines that have been provided to the forum should be tempered with Bob's reluctance to create them. Were they necessary? Unfortunately yes. According to the guidelines (notice they are not called rules) our responsability is as follows.

Please help others follow these
guidelines. If the problems continue after you’ve given a gentle
reminder of
these expectations, please click “Report Abuse” under “More” or send an
email
to forums@logos.com.

As far as i can tell this thread is a perfect example of how this was followed. Our job is a "gentle reminder" Logos job is dealing with abuse. I do not feel this ever rose to the level of abuse.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93435#Comment_93435

Philip, one of my main concerns is that all the people that make this kind of post be shown the same grace that has been shown in this case.

In the past that has not been the case, and I felt that I have noticed the higher your post count the more likely the rules are over looked, and the lower the count the more they are enforced.

I am all for posts like this, it agrees with my ideas, but some would say this is bad manners, since we are on a Logos forum. This idea of good and bad manners can be used as a nice stick to get everyone to agree with our view of what is right and wrong, allowed or not allowed. Posters should not be submitted to such things just because they think that Logos means something different than some else does, and it would only take a minute for Logos to make this area clear.

I have no intention of getting in a fight with Logos, I like the company, but if they want to allow the kind of post, that will help others without any bad intentions towards Logos, it would be nice to know. And if they really do not want this kind of post it would be nice to know.

In Christ,

Jim

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93695#Comment_93695

I felt that I have noticed the higher your post count the more likely the rules are over looked, and the lower the count the more they are enforced.

Is this really true? I'd not paid attention but I certainly hope it isn't.

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93428#Comment_93428

My personal opinion is that we should not pounce on people very quickly.

I was just thinking about this even more.

As a Christian, how are we to deal with erring brothers and sisters.....Take it to them in private. leave them a comment. I have never had a comment not with a return of any sort. this will likely get a change to the posting quietly and everybody and there dog wont see the slam. Like we did this thread and got on this band-wagon.

Now, I would still like a place where we can all meet to say things in general to help us grow as Christians.

William

Mike W

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91949#Comment_91949

Bert,

Yes...that's a great app.."Parsons Greek Tutor"....I love it....well worth the 29.00

Please be advised that this Parsons program is a very old program. It won't install on Windows 7 or Vista. Compatibility mode doesn't work with this program either. (Those complaining about Zondervan should talk to a few former Parsons customers[:'(]).

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94619#Comment_94619

Yes....it's really old and looks very "klunky" but I am using it with a "virtual machine" loaded with WinXP and it works fine.

Just in case anyone wants to run it with Win7.....that's the only way.

virtualbox is free, and I got a copy of WinXP for 20.00.