Still using L3? Prefer L3?

Just curious...

Anyone out there who is finding it hard or even impossible to bring themselves to adopt L4?

I am using L3 about 99+% of the time. I open L4 every once in a while, but I usually regret doing so because it just reminds me of what it's not. Not just that's it's not L3...but that it lost so much of what I love (i.e. use) about L3. In fact, I sort of resent L4 precisely because the few minor changes that could make L3 exactly what I want and need are essentially buried along with the whole "L3 improvements drawing board".

I acknowledge L4's potentially greater power, but the disappointment factor consistently overwhelms me every time I try to wade back in. It almost never does what I want it to do. I have a sliver of hope that things will improve, but I heard Bob say with his own mouth, and in a couple of instances in one-on-one conversation, that certain things that console me are gone.

Does this strike a chord with anyone else? I'd like to hear the reasons you feel this way.

Oh, all you L4 apologists and fanatics...this isn't your party. Thanks. (Btw, this is in the L4 thread on purpose, because I'm talking to people who have L4.)

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Terry Poperszky

Anyone out there who is finding it hard or even impossible to bring themselves to adopt L4?

I use L3 for the features that haven't been implemented in L4 Vocab lists and Verse lists. Other than that, the answer to your question is no. I am using L4 more on a day to day basis than I ever used L3, but that has little to do with any failing of L3, L4 is more Mac like in it's implementation and as such I am drawn to it and as you mentioned, it's potential is greater.

Does this strike a chord with anyone else? I'd like to hear the reasons you feel this way.

Your question is phrased to illicit answers from people who agree and disagree with the question. Yet this next phrase

Oh, all you L4 apologists and fanatics...this isn't your party.

Tells me you are possibly only seeking answers from L4 Haters, since I do not put myself in any of those categories, I will risk answering your question honestly.

John Nerdue

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93910#Comment_93910

I don't hate L4 but do dislike it. I might have hatted it when I first got it but that has changed. I use L3 all the time and only rarely even start up L4. I am comfortable with L3 and like what I can do with it plus there are things missing from L4 also L4 seems to run very slow for me.

But again I don't hate L4.

Wayne

I have adopted the use of Logos 4 slowly. I had a reading schedule that I only recently moved over to L4. The videos have been a big help to me to make the transition. I have watched most of the videos made by private users as they show how to bring the various aspects of Logos 4 together at one time. It has been a month since I have opened version 3. I never hated Logos 4, it was just difficult for my to adapt in part to the speed of my system and download speed.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93941#Comment_93941

I bought the L4 cross-upgrade, tried it out and eventually uninstalled it. But I am impressed how emotional people get over the software (vs Bible study). I think Bob's blog that intro'd L4 was both clear and honest ... the company wanted to go in a new direction and made a decision. Nothing wrong with that. I also made a decision prior to that, that I wanted a PC that could stay on battery for long hours, and that meant a low-power chip. So as a user, priorities have to be weighed and L3 does a solid 95% of L4. The cross-upgrade was great; I wanted to resources and they run in L3. And I ended up buying a bunch more resources from reading the L4 forum. I still think L4 will be a bridge to the iPhone/iPad approach, which is much more supportable by Logos. I personally doubt the L4 model is sustainable across so many PCs with so many potential problems. So, I like L3 but I'm also impressed with Logos management as well.

Chuck P.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93941#Comment_93941

When I write my Sunday School lessons I have L3 up beside L4. I use
the parallel passages in L3 since they will easily copy and paste into my Word
document. It can be done in L4, but Word treats them as cells which is a little
cumbersome to work with. I use 3 versions in the parallel and L3 makes it so
simple to copy and paste.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93968#Comment_93968

I purchsed L4 the first week it came out and within a couple of weeks found myself using it far more on a daily basis than i ever used L3. The more I learn about it and see the potedntial of this program the more I like it. It is not perfect yet but I see it as being an infant that needs to be supported and raised up so that it can become what we want it to be. After joining in the 4b beta family and seeing the progress there (probably to be an RC soon) I have removed L3 from my computers.

Wes Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93968#Comment_93968

I too agree with the original post. I bought L4 early on, and have accomplished nothing with it except to try several times to jump over the new learning curve, which hasn't worked and has cost me many hours, just trying to use basic features which apparently are intentionally not functioning properly yet. I spent over an hour trying to make the copy bible verse tool work properly one day, and it still does not. If you try to format it, it copys the actual words [full book name] instead of actually doing the book name. That is a big tool for me because I do A LOT of bible study, where I go through the whole bible or NT and look for passage that have to do with topics and then copy paste them all in word documents so that I can go back and study that topic. So I would like them formated in an easily readable format, which I had come up with in L3, but is not reproducable in L4.

The issue I have with L4 is that it doesn't do basic things L3 did well, like a pop up with for Greek in the NAS. I am fine with adding the new information window, but why not have a few options that allow me to do it the old way too? I like to have minimal information on my screen, normally just one screen with the Bible up. I don't want information boxes or anything else open. And then not coming up with a note importing tool that works seems to be inexcusable. I teach my discipleship groups from my laptop withLogos open, and I have spent a lot of time making notes so that I can help others know God's word better. And I am not willing to sacrifice all that research that is in L3, but now not in L4.

All that said, L4 does seem like it has a lot of potential, but it also seems quite unfinished. You would think for the $1,000 or more for a piece of software, that it would come ready to really use and would be a clear upgrade from L3.

tom

Just curious...

Anyone out there who is finding it hard or even impossible to bring themselves to adopt L4?

I am using L3 about 99+% of the time. I open L4 every once in a while, but I usually regret doing so because it just reminds me of what it's not. Not just that's it's not L3...but that it lost so much of what I love (i.e. use) about L3. In fact, I sort of resent L4 precisely because the few minor changes that could make L3 exactly what I want and need are essentially buried along with the whole "L3 improvements drawing board".

I acknowledge L4's potentially greater power, but the disappointment factor consistently overwhelms me every time I try to wade back in. It almost never does what I want it to do. I have a sliver of hope that things will improve, but I heard Bob say with his own mouth, and in a couple of instances in one-on-one conversation, that certain things that console me are gone.

Does this strike a chord with anyone else? I'd like to hear the reasons you feel this way.

Oh, all you L4 apologists and fanatics...this isn't your party. Thanks. (Btw, this is in the L4 thread on purpose, because I'm talking to people who have L4.)

I too use L3 99.99% of the time, and for the same reason - what L4 does not have - usable notes. Currently L4 does not import any of my information from L3. It does not bring in my collections, it does not bring in my notes, it does not bring in my preferences, it does not bring in my workspaces.

The most important part of any software program is the user's data. If Logos does not support or import our L3 data in L4, why should I spend the time to redo all of my work and support Logos because Logos wants to go in a new direction and not bring me along with them?

FYI... I do have the beta version of L4 so that I could import my notes, and the note function is not, in my eyes, what Bob said they were going to do with it.

Bob said on July 4, 2009,

Let me start by saying we ARE improving notes in the next release, and implementing many of the most commonly requested features.

So far, I have not seen any improvements with Logos' notes.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93987#Comment_93987

I use L3 when L4 crashes on my machine which so far, is most of the time. L4 is either updating, indexing or crashing. I had an update notice yesterday, did an update, did an index and then when I opened L4 again, had another update to download (I did not download it yet but it annoyed me greatly). When I try to use L4 (and I love L4), I find that I cannot use it for searches without a crash. So I go to L3 when I need a stable program.

William Darius Myers

It has not been impossible to bring myself to use L4.

It has simply been impossible, so far, to use L4--except after 20+ hours of waiting for the program to finish what IT wants to do. I think I might eventually be able to learn where they've put everything, if I had days available to sit and wait and watch my computer screen spin those wheel-less spokes. (Is that subtly symbolic that we're going nowhere, staring at the screen for the next question to be answered?)

I understand the criticism above regarding those whose emotions run higher for software than for Bible study--but at this point, all I have to go on is the experience of having to play with the software that no longer allows me the Bible study. I have yet to make the program functional on my reasonably fast, well-RAMmed, and stable-XP operating system computer.

In the first two of the three times I have attempted to use the software since installing it, I have spent a day without use of my computer as the process of "downloading updates" (of 132.6M most recently), "preparing library" (for about ten minutes), "indexing library-calculating time remaining" (fourteen minutes this last time), and finally "indexing library - 20 hours remaining." I have allowed it to complete the process the first two times. This morning I finally aborted this most recent attempt, and once again sought for information among the multiple FAQs, blogs, boards, and other information abounding (primarily on the advantages of purchasing the upgrade). But I have found no help here. I may have missed something in nearly an hour of searching. But most of the discussion have to do with actually USING the software, which I have yet to accomplish successfully.

So, then, it's probably just me. It's a unique experience related to some obscure idiosyncrasy of my hardware, or other software, or a virus, or a trojan. Therefore, no purchasers should be dissuaded from using L4 on the basis of my experience.

But if I had known that purchasing the upgrade to L4 would result in far more attention to the software than to the scripture (which had been the beauty of L3), I could have found far better uses for that portion of this pastor's limited resources.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93988#Comment_93988

I am using L4 most of the time now - mostly because I had a system crash (since repaired under warranty).

The reinstall of L3 was delayed when we had a planned trip (New Orleans for Congress on Evangelism) and a family emergency (Northern California) which kept me away from home for all but four days in January. I finally began the reinstall L3 on Wednesday night.

Having used L4 for all of January, I am becoming more familiar with it. However, I will be using L3 for

formated copying into Word, OneNote, and TheJournal - a must have, if I am going to leave L3 behind - with footnotes or endnotes
printing - since I do most of my printing from the three programs mentioned above, this is less critical
Greek and Hebrew assistance - given the usefulness of Strongs numbering (i.e. CWSB - which is non-functional in L4)

By the way, I was asking myself the same question late last night and was planning on posting a similar question.

Blessings,

Floyd

Sharon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93998#Comment_93998

I put L4 on a new laptop. L3 is still on my older computer. Can I install my L3 on my new laptop? What would I need to do?

Thanks in advance.

Sharon

Logan Hall

Oh, all you L4 apologists and fanatics...this isn't your party. Thanks. (Btw, this is in the L4 thread on purpose, because I'm talking to people who have L4.)

Not an apologists or a fanatic, so I sense a freedom to join the party. I use L4 100% of the time. Not only that, I use it much more frequently than I even did L3. I actually totally uninstalled L3. Having said that, I am anxiously anticipating future releases that will make a wonderful product even better. My conclusion, we are all different and have a diversity of different needs and approaches to a tool and features that assist in Bible study. To some L3 will appeal more... to others, like me, L4 will appeal more. I am therefore very pleased with the direction that Logos is taking.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94026#Comment_94026

I really enjoy studying the bible!!! There I said it, I enjoy studying the bible, not studying bible study programs.

I bought Logos 4 on the first day it came out, and spent nearly a month totally hating it. But then got both the new manuals and figured things out and started loving it.

But it is not complete and although I really love the program as far as it goes, it does not go far enough. I know the other functions are on the way, but for right now I am tired of waiting, I am tired of all the downloads-indexing-slow performance-you need to wade through the forums to find the information to fix the latest fix, stuff. I am just tired of it!

So I have gone back to Logos 3, with all my new resources and to a place where I can study the bible rather than study bible programs.

So I don't have to be frustrated with Logos 4, I will wait until they get the features out and the fixes in, and then go back to it, but they need to get their thoughts together about the note taking feature or I will end up using Logos 3 most of the time. The funny thing is at Camp Logos 1 and 2 they teach you good ways to use your notes, and give you ideas that will forever change your view of the notes function, and then Logos 4 comes along and makes those ideas harder than ever to accomplish!!!

In Christ,

Jim

Geneva Smith Krag

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94047#Comment_94047

I purchased L4 because of the raw potential of the program. I have read through parts of the forum (thank you all for participating!) and watched the videos. I am planning to acquire a laptop which will have power sufficient to utilize L4 in my class teaching. I think I like the program. I think I do.

Okay, not having the NASB77 available as a Bible was an initial barrier to using L4 for my personal devotions. That has changed with the recent update. I give Logos and Bob credit for making that problem for me go away. (Thank you!)

I am a creature of habit, and I am used to L3. I do most of my work in L3. (I still find Bible Speed Search to be more useful than the L4 search function. That is probably a familiarity issue on my part.)

I believe that there will come a day when my use of L4 will be greater than my use of L3 (and I look forward to that day), but L3 does the job for me right now.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94093#Comment_94093

I use Logos 4 for most of my study, sermon preparation and even devotion. I open Logos 3 only when I need to use my Czech and Polish PBB Bibles. The day Logos 4 will implement PBB support I am going to uninstall Logos 3. Am I fanatic? No, just happy with all the new ways of working with Logos.

Jerry Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94129#Comment_94129

I'll join and say that I use L3 for my "work" and L4 for what it does exceptionally well, e.g., search. With all my notes, hyperlinks, favorites still wedded to L3, it can't be abandoned for "work"! Not "if," but "when" L4 catches up with L3 it will most definitely be my main piece of working software. Come on L4!

Edwin Bowden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94209#Comment_94209

I waited until near the end of the special discounts to upgrade to L4. The main reason that I wanted the upgrade was to add the additional resources moving from L3 Gold to L4 Platinum.

I still work primarily in L3, but like some of the new features of L4. I have followed all the discussions on the forum and have watched some of the videos. I just haven't had the time to really devote to learning how to fully use L4 yet.

I haven't had any crashes, etc. It seems to function fine.

It's the operator that isn't up to speed yet. [8-)]

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93910#Comment_93910

Does this strike a chord with anyone else? I'd like to hear the reasons you feel this way.
Your question is phrased to illicit answers from people who agree and disagree with the question.

Um, no, Terry...it isn't phrased that way. Not even remotely so. I'm amazed you feel you could say something so...untrue...in a public forum.

I asked specifically if anyone has the same reservations as I do. I DIDN'T ask if people don't have those reservations...I know many don't. I said very clearly that I wanted to hear reasons why folks might have reservations or dissatisfaction with the program.

Your response is akin to the thick students I teach who are so intent and focused on themselves that they have to mouth off whenever they perceive the slightest provocation. If during a test I say, "Anyone who is talking will have their paper taken up and receive a zero," they immediately respond, "I'm not talking!" I of course respond, "You are now," and take their paper. I might have made the comment specifically to curtail a different student who is about to speak, but the first student, otherwise harmlessly engaged in the test, suddenly perceives a challenge (where none was issued) that he or she feels unable to ignore.

Whether a person "hates" L4 or not is not a concern of mine, although I would like to hear why they do hate it if they do. I am trying to give voice to those who are, for whatever reason, not satisfied enough with L4 to migrate to the new platform. I anticipated there would be those who, like you, would (for reasons I can't really understand...it just seems bizarre) feel compelled to jump into defense (attack?) mode. I noticed very soon after beginning to post on this forum that nearly any dissatisfaction or frustration expressed w/L4 was almost instantly crushed beneath a collective jackboot, a la Stalin or Mao. It's happened to me and I've seen it happen to others. Actually, I don't perceive it to be an organized move of the company in any way, so a better analogy would probably be the Basij, the volunteer militia that helped crush the uprising after the rigged Iranian elections.

You will of course say you have done no such thing...but by capitalizing the word "Haters" you certainly have purposefully attempted to "blackwash" anyone who might consider responding to my query. You then justified doing so by insisting something was true that patently was not, twisting my words to suit your purpose and intentions.

For the record, I don't hate L4...but even if I did, what concern is that of yours? It isn't...period. If there are people who have spent hundreds or even thousands on this program who find it isn't performing as it should for them, they have every right to say so on this forum without being berated, castigated, harangued, or scolded for their lack of satisfaction. People have a RIGHT to express their frustration if their attempts to effectively use the software are consistently frustrated. And there is no reason they should have to mollycoddle the hairtrigger sensibilities of either Logos cheerleaders or "niceniks" who grossly confuse dissatisfaction with a lack of loyalty to Logos (an odd notion, regardless) or worse, a lack of Christianity.

Do you want to cheer for Logos? Fine, be my guest and more power to you--let me introduce you to the button called "Write a New Post".

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94212#Comment_94212

David, I have a certain nostalgia for L3, but I have switched to L4. I agree that some of the uses L3 still seems to have an edge on L4 (notes and printing, and PBB--although I never made use of that one) really "hurt" full conversion to L4. And I suppose ones preference for L3 over L4 is in direct proportion to one's use of those features.

That said: while I was an excited fanboy about L4's release, it seemed that it took a month or two for me to really convert. I was burdened by a new work flow, a semi slower XP running machine, and overall unfamiliarity with L4. At times I really just wised it would go away.

I don't have that feeling anymore. While some things (lack of printing) annoy me, soooo many other things have captured my attention and made me enjoy study within L4. Clippings is one feature. A much better library (graphically and search-wise). Better pane/window management. Power lookup. etc.

I like it. Glad it is here. WIsh I had an iPad. And about 5K for my pre-pub wish list and another 5 K for books I don't own that are already published.

I still want improvements.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94232#Comment_94232

Um, no, Terry...it isn't phrased that way. Not even remotely so. I'm amazed you feel you could say something so...untrue...in a public forum.

ahh the nuances of communication. By the way, if I felt it was untrue, I wouldn't have said it whether in public or in private.

our response is akin to the thick students I teach who are so intent and focused on themselves that they have to mouth off whenever they perceive the slightest provocation

This admission on your part about your feelings for your students says it all, but not about your students.

o you want to cheer for Logos? Fine, be my guest and more power to you--let me introduce you to the button called "Write a New Post".

As you pointed out, this is a public forum and anyone may post as long as they don't violate the guidelines of the forum. If you feel that I have done so, and I am not being receptive to your "gentle" rebuke, then I suggest you use the abuse button and report me. I answered about the ways in which I still used L3.

MJ. Smith

Does this strike a chord with anyone else? I'd like to hear the reasons you feel this way.

Not exactly but sorta ... because unfortunately, the functions I used the most are among the "forthcoming" items. So, yes, I have returned to using L3 more than I would like but retain my "half-glass full" optimism that this is temporary.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94264#Comment_94264

Certainly, MJ, my fervent hope is that enough forthcoming changes will tip my attitude toward L4, at least to the point that I am making significant use of it, even if I never adopt it completely. I think it clearly won't ever adopt all of my desires--Bob as much as said so...though I suppose things can change. I am thus cautiously optimistic...or maybe I should say "hopeful".

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94232#Comment_94232

For the record, I don't hate L4...but even if I did, what concern is that of yours? It isn't...period. If there are people who have spent hundreds or even thousands on this program who find it isn't performing as it should for them, they have every right to say so on this forum without being berated, castigated, harangued, or scolded for their lack of satisfaction. People have a RIGHT to express their frustration if their attempts to effectively use the software are consistently frustrated. And there is no reason they should have to mollycoddle the hairtrigger sensibilities of either Logos cheerleaders or "niceniks" who grossly confuse dissatisfaction with a lack of loyalty to Logos (an odd notion, regardless) or worse, a lack of Christianity.

Do you want to cheer for Logos? Fine, be my guest and more power to you--let me introduce you to the button called "Write a New Post".

David,

I'm certain God is using your post here to teach me patience under the most unreasonable circumstances...

So thank you.

Bob Schlessman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93997#Comment_93997

I am still using both versions of the software mainly because my laptop computer doesn't have the horsepower or the RAM to handle L4. Thus L3 is the software of choice. However, on my desktop I have both installed and at times fall back to L3 to do some of the tasks with which I am most familiar and haven't had the time to figure them out on L4.

The one feature I miss the mpst is the customizable toobars but again it may just be lack of familiarity. L4 has a lot of features of which I haven't even scratched the surface. All in all I am very pleased with L4 and recognize there is a pretty steep learning curve. Quite honestly I doubt that I ever used the full potential of L3, but it did (does) what I wanted and is a tremendous tool for sermon and lesson preparation. My prep time is a small fraction of what it used to be when I was limited to the hard cover editions of my library.

John Hapgood

Just curious...

Anyone out there who is finding it hard or even impossible to bring themselves to adopt L4?

I'm finding it hard but I'm doing it. I want to learn all there is to know about it so, despite the problems (like it not responding for a few seconds at a time while I type text into a box), I continue to use it every day and only launch L3 if I absolutely have to. But yes, it is a little hard . . . but not enough to grumble about.

I post my problems and get all the help I need and await patiently the perfected product. God is GOOOOOD!!!

What I grumble the most about are my sore eyes from looking at this screen all day every day. And I wish I had my youthful energy back that I had when I was in my teens and twenties so I could concentrate on the subject I'm studying. BUT . . . I'm looking forward to that upgrade as well )

Bob Schlessman

I am reminded of my resistance to Office 2007. I held out until early 2009. I was comforatble with Office 2003 and disliked all of the differences between the 2003 and 2007 user interfaces. Essentially Office 2007 was a complete rewrite of the software. But I took on a long term sub-teaching assignment and the school was using Office 2007 so I had to take the plunge. Now a year later I can't imagine going back to Office 2003.

I suspect I will eventually find myself in the same position with L3 and L4 especiallt given that there will eventually be no new resources or updates for L3. But for the ow and I suspect for many months to come I will be using both for the reasons stated in my previous post.

There is a learning curve for any major software upgrade. Sometimes it is steeper than other times as is the case with L4. And as I have found out since becoming a pastor, most people don't like change and tend to resist it, myself included.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94298#Comment_94298

I am reminded of my resistance to Office 2007. I held out until early 2009. I was comforatble with Office 2003 and disliked all of the differences between the 2003 and 2007 user interfaces. Essentially Office 2007 was a complete rewrite of the software. But I took on a long term sub-teaching assignment and the school was using Office 2007 so I had to take the plunge. Now a year later I can't imagine going back to Office 2003.

I suspect I will eventually find myself in the same position with L3 and L4 especiallt given that there will eventually be no new resources or updates for L3. But for the ow and I suspect for many months to come I will be using both for the reasons stated in my previous post.

There is a learning curve for any major software upgrade. Sometimes it is steeper than other times as is the case with L4. And as I have found out since becoming a pastor, most people don't like change and tend to resist it, myself included.

Well said Bob. I feel ya on the change in the church thing. Have you heard something like "we've always done this" or we've never done it that way before"?

Roger Feenstra

Does this strike a chord with anyone else? I'd like to hear the reasons you feel this way.

Yes, to some degree it does strike a chord, but I keep plodding through the program in hopes that tomorrow will be a brand new day.

The reason people get their hackles up when this program is criticized or challenged in any way is because "Where your treasure it, there your heart will be." Many have thousands of dollars invested and they're not about to let some newbie who just bought the Christian Home Library rub the problems in their faces. Of course, I've spent over a thousand, but I'm relatively happy and I don't mind change. I know that change always takes some getting used to. The more I use L4, the more Iike it. Furthermore, I also use the alpha 13a version on my Mac and I like it better than the PC version (sans the notes features and a bunch of other stuff that doesn't work yet on the Mac).

Folks need to calm down. It will be okay, I promise.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94372#Comment_94372

I continue to use version 3 because it is comfortable for me and I don't want to spend any more money on Bible software than I have too. Lets hope each new generation (18 months or so) of interface doesn't orphan previous versions on the way to a subscription based library system...i.e. you pay more and more for less and less on your computer....each year.

William Darius Myers

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94339#Comment_94339

Have you heard something like "we've always done this" or we've never done it that way before"?

Ah, the sweet sound of the Seven Last Words of the Church. Almost worth building a tenebrae service around, isn't it?

Edward hyndman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94391#Comment_94391

Notes is the big reason I still use L3. I expect to continue using L3 when import of notes is available since the L4 notes may still need further tweaking. I like some things about L4, but would have been quite happy not to have had it for another year or two while it was all completed.

I have stopped buying resources for it though, because at some level I don't really like using L4. I don't mean in comparison to L3, I mean in its own right. The work-flow is "awkward" or something. Wish I could put my finger on that. Suffice to say, if there was another option out there for this scale of library study, I might be swayed to it.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94710#Comment_94710

Notes is the big reason I still use L3. I expect to continue using L3 when import of notes is available since the L4 notes may still need further tweaking. I like some things about L4, but would have been quite happy not to have had it for another year or two while it was all completed.

I have stopped buying resources for it though, because at some level I don't really like using L4. I don't mean in comparison to L3, I mean in its own right. The work-flow is "awkward" or something. Wish I could put my finger on that. Suffice to say, if there was another option out there for this scale of library study, I might be swayed to it.

I too will be using L3 until the note function of L4 because at lest as useful as L3.

At first, I was thinking that L4 came out 9 to 12 months too soon. Based on what I have seem, the updates Logos has provided so far, and the number of issues people are having, I am thinking it came out 18 to 24 months too soon.

Michael Birney

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94232#Comment_94232

L3 is not nearly the bible study tool that L4 is, they just don't compare. What a difference L4 has made in my study and hunger for the scripture in last few months. So to answer your OP, no, what you say does not strike a chord with me at all.

Also, just because someone has found a tool that really works in their life does not mean that they value the tool over the Word - insinuations to the opposite are a bit out of line. And none of the above makes me an apologist, just my experience.

Hoping we can keep this thread civil, maybe a little editing above would help that.

Wesley Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94728#Comment_94728

Still using L3? Well, yea there are some things I still have to use L3 for that L4 doesn't have YET my prayer list is all important to me, and the ability to import sermons, and I do occasionally need fuzzy search. But all these will be coming to L4.

Prefer L3? I did, but after learning to use L4 I have found it to be a wonderful tool for sermons and Lesson making as well (especially when I am "strapped for time") [:$].

I will admit, I do have to learn to work it, but I also am a little slow on Windows 7 which is still new to me too!

Shawn Drewett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94753#Comment_94753

Sometimes L4 is overwhelming for me. Of course I never mastered L3. It is definitley a pro-con equal situation. It would be like me buying a piano!

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94796#Comment_94796

After I read of the many problems caused by new downloads to L4, indexing and re-indexing and merge indexing problems, I just use L3. It's not because I do not want to learn L4 or even use it-I don't want to struggle with the maintenance of the program itself. As much as I'd like to get every update when it comes out, I'll wait until releases are stable and not buggy. ( I don't have time to waste deleting a file or two to see if I can get the index right, for example.) I want the "new" very much but not until it proves itself to be easier to maintain.

Jim

Just curious...

Anyone out there who is finding it hard or even impossible to bring themselves to adopt L4?

I've been using Logos since it came out on 3.5" disks and currently use it almost every day. I don't say the following with any animosity.

L4 has damaged Logos' reputation in my eyes. Not because its fails to advance the technology or provide a better product (though I can't really say one way or the other since I can't make it do anything productive yet) but because they continue to make the barrier to productivity so high despite the competitive proliferation of free web-base Bible study tools that must be eating into their market share of low end package products.

I worked as a product developer and manager in the high-tech industry for a long time. I am experienced in developing hardware and software products that interface with people. Logos is a company that has never been very effective at developing user-friendly/intuitive interfaces, help information or customer education. If it weren't for Morris Proctor, I would have abandoned Logos long ago. I had hoped it would be different this time around, but the fact remains that real price of the L4 upgrade is the money paid to Logos plus the price of one or more of Mo's seminars, plus the time to wait until he comes to our state. Don't get me wrong. Mo does an absolutely fantastic job. In fact I can't see how Logos can exist without him, but he's necessary because the user interface for Logos is quite obtuse.

Of course Logos is going to say, "we have videos!". But the L4 videos are like buying a complex VCR and getting a free video that shows you how to plug it into the wall, turn it on and set the time. For some that's enough either because they don't need much more, or because they can figure the rest out on their own, but suppose the VCR includes features that involve ways of doing things that no one has seen before? Then what would you think of the video?

So, I have L3 set up with custom toolbars and I know exactly how to get complex tasks done quickly. Every week or so I open L4, let it update itself, stare at it for a few minutes, try to do something useful, fail, and go back to L3 so I don't waste my time. I don't mind learning, but trial and error gets old - and I'm old enough that I don't have too many years left to waste. Furthermore, there is no use in going very far until I can port my notes over. In fact if Logos fails to make the notes backwards compatible, it may be a real long time before I can use L4, because I don't envision a sudden-death transition from L3 to L4.

If Logos had some videos that explained how to set up L4 to accomplish what I do in L3, then I could make the switch. But that might compete with Mo's seminars, so I don't see it happening.

An additional problem I have, is that I'm out of work. The upgrade was a sacrifice. I don't know if I can afford another seminar even when Mo comes to our state.

I don't know how this story is going to resolve itself.

John Graves

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94991#Comment_94991

The real problem i have with L4 is the constant updating and indexing. It seems that every week we have something new to download which for me isnt that big of a problem but it is the indexing that follows that really gets on my nerves. Then you better hope that you don't have a corrupted index or you may have to totally reindex and that takes a while. I think I would rather have slower searches and no indexing. I wish we got the choice.

Other than that I love the program and use it exclusively and am waiting anxiously for the mac version to be complete.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94973#Comment_94973

After I read of the many problems caused by new downloads to L4, indexing and re-indexing and merge indexing problems, I just use L3.

Remember that the people who haven't had problems don't post. The only problem that I have had of this sort is this past weekend on news third party software that works in L3 but I can't get moved to L4. Only a small percentage have had problems. Only a few of those have been severe.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94991#Comment_94991

Just curious...

Anyone out there who is finding it hard or even impossible to bring themselves to adopt L4?

I've been using Logos since it came out on 3.5" disks and currently use it almost every day. I don't say the following with any animosity.

L4 has damaged Logos' reputation in my eyes. Not because its fails to advance the technology or provide a better product (though I can't really say one way or the other since I can't make it do anything productive yet) but because they continue to make the barrier to productivity so high despite the competitive proliferation of free web-base Bible study tools that must be eating into their market share of low end package products.

I worked as a product developer and manager in the high-tech industry for a long time. I am experienced in developing hardware and software products that interface with people. Logos is a company that has never been very effective at developing user-friendly/intuitive interfaces, help information or customer education. If it weren't for Morris Proctor, I would have abandoned Logos long ago. I had hoped it would be different this time around, but the fact remains that real price of the L4 upgrade is the money paid to Logos plus the price of one or more of Mo's seminars, plus the time to wait until he comes to our state. Don't get me wrong. Mo does an absolutely fantastic job. In fact I can't see how Logos can exist without him, but he's necessary because the user interface for Logos is quite obtuse.

Of course Logos is going to say, "we have videos!". But the L4 videos are like buying a complex VCR and getting a free video that shows you how to plug it into the wall, turn it on and set the time. For some that's enough either because they don't need much more, or because they can figure the rest out on their own, but suppose the VCR includes features that involve ways of doing things that no one has seen before? Then what would you think of the video?

So, I have L3 set up with custom toolbars and I know exactly how to get complex tasks done quickly. Every week or so I open L4, let it update itself, stare at it for a few minutes, try to do something useful, fail, and go back to L3 so I don't waste my time. I don't mind learning, but trial and error gets old - and I'm old enough that I don't have too many years left to waste. Furthermore, there is no use in going very far until I can port my notes over. In fact if Logos fails to make the notes backwards compatible, it may be a real long time before I can use L4, because I don't envision a sudden-death transition from L3 to L4.

If Logos had some videos that explained how to set up L4 to accomplish what I do in L3, then I could make the switch. But that might compete with Mo's seminars, so I don't see it happening.

An additional problem I have, is that I'm out of work. The upgrade was a sacrifice. I don't know if I can afford another seminar even when Mo comes to our state.

I don't know how this story is going to resolve itself.

I must be a genius!

I've used L3 and L4 and though they are different...I've been able to use L4 effectively without the need for Morris Proctor or a seminar!

Thank you very much for the compliment [:D]

Mark Watson

Anyone out there who is finding it hard or even impossible to bring themselves to adopt L4?

Yes. L3 is where I get alot of my work done. L4 is mostly for looking around right now.

Does this strike a chord with anyone else? I'd like to hear the reasons you feel this way.

Yes. I can understand the direction change in the Logos corporate world of changing technology. However, I do wander where Logos is going. Personally, I only have internet access at my home and not at church. (No one has access at the church.) So I do not like having to spend my internet time downloading massive updates. Then having to do the whole reindex or merge index thing (which many persons in this forum don't recommend anyway) which slows down my computer completely. I never had a crash in L3 that did not go away after a simple shutdown and restart of my computer. I have on L4.

It seems to me that Logos did jump the gun on their rollout of L4 and this may have been an economic decision. Sales seem to have been good for them. They got another several hundred of my dollars. And just personally, I don't care for any product that is web based only as subscription. Logos has discontinued Lesson Builder (which I liked) and now they have shut down the Seminary Library subscription that they used to offer. (I did not subscribe to this because of the costs.)

Also, I spent time and money buying L3 training manuals from their trainer, quick file disks with all sorts of much needed tricks for L3, flash cards for keystrokes, etc. and even went to Camp Logos 1 (both my wife and I paid to go to this) and was planning to go to a Camp Logos 2 this summer (but that has now changed). I don't even see a discount for L3 Camp attendees to "re-do their training" in L4. So the change to L4 has been a little of a bummer for me. I have more resources, but cannot do more with them than I could in L3.

Plus I cannot run L4 on my old notebook, which I used for travel.

So for me personally, it has been a love and not love relationship with L4 so far. And I do not plan on taking L3 off of my computers at any time in the future.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95086#Comment_95086

It strikes me that Logos has a big vision that is just now being fulfilled in the next level of evolution in the L4 interface. To me it seems that more and more of what is going on is a push environment that will ultimate lead to a subscription based product on multiple platforms for a flat yearly fee....but this is pure speculation. Honestly Logos has outpaced me in both the technology and the size of the library that that technology uses .

A version L3.5 with further extension of the interface incorporating more push technology at a much lower upgrade fee would have been preferable to what I am reading in multiple threads about L4. Perhaps I just don't get the "big picture" but I do feel more and more that Logos and its products are alienating me as a customer. Although L3 does seem to be a useful interface to access my lowly Scholar Library.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95086#Comment_95086

However, I do wander where Logos is going.

I'll scold myself first (Bad, MJ, bad, bad) before I remark that this is an absolutely wonderful typo. Since you wander where Logos is going, I bet all the features fit your use to the T. Me - I wander all over the place criss-crossing where Logos is going. [:D]

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95001#Comment_95001

After I read of the many problems caused by new downloads to L4, indexing and re-indexing and merge indexing problems, I just use L3.

Remember that the people who haven't had problems don't post. The only problem that I have had of this sort is this past weekend on news third party software that works in L3 but I can't get moved to L4. Only a small percentage have had problems. Only a few of those have been severe.

Yes, I know that. But I am extremely conservative and thus my behavior plays out that attitude. I don't want an iota of an issue; I never had any issues with L3. Not a scintilla. It's my choice. [H]

Mark Watson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95142#Comment_95142

M.J. Smith,

No need to scold yourself. I sometimes I wonder if I am just wandering around in L4! I seemed to at least be able to find a destination (if not my intended one) in L3.

I have chuckled many times over your posts in the past, wondering what type of genius is this liturgical-loving giant who posts with a swift precision and eloquence? Care to work on some Methodist or Wesleyan resources in the future? We use the Revised Common Lectionary by the way...

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95001#Comment_95001

Remember that the people who haven't had problems don't post.

MJ. This is very true, but I did not see so many people posting about issues they were having with L3.

I am not having the software issues with L4 (it could come from the fact that I use L3 99.85% of the time). My issues with L4 come from the fact that I cannot use the data that I entered into L3. I have several hundred workspaces (one for each day in the lectionary plus special services), and Logos has not provided a way to import them into L4. Bob has stated that the two systems are so different that they cannot import them. I personally think that this is nothing but bull 'dingle berries.' A script can be made to import them. Will they look the same because we could have overlapping windows in L3? No, but I would have all of the resources that I use for a particular worship service open to me in a layout that I could use, instead of recreating everything from scratch.

I have lots and lots and lots of notes. Now with the removal of, what I call the "Table of Contents," from the left column, I now must scroll down to find the note that I am looking for. This makes my notes useless in L4.

Anonymous

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95263#Comment_95263

I have downloaded & had a quick look at L4 but the extent to which I use Logos (or any other program) doesn't warrant me spending time delving into it. L3 is more than enough to suit my needs.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95263#Comment_95263

My issues with L4 come from the fact that I cannot use the data that I entered into L3. I have several hundred workspaces (one for each day in the lectionary plus special services), and Logos has not provided a way to import them into L4.

This doesn't make the pain of conversion for you any less, but may I ask a question without antagonizing you? How many people do you think have a layout organization as complex as yours? And this is a related question: Do you think that Logos should be responsible for converting all data from a previous version regardless of the number of people that not doing so affects.

Tom, I am not trying to pick a fight, people here use the programs so many different (different from me, that is) that it blows my mind. One the other members of the forums has created hundreds of collections, which must have taken hours and hours. I can see why he would be upset if those didn't make the trip into a new version of Logos. I like layouts and collections, but I haven't invested the time in them that either of you have.

Jim

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95134#Comment_95134

I don't resist the leap in technology that L4 seems to be capable of. In fact I think it is needed. I see us as really being Beta product testers or more euphemistically "early adopters". My main issue is that it makes sense to help the user base make the transition smoother.

L3 has a lot of customization capability. It can be quite useful without much customization, but you can also become very productive at complex research by taking advantage of the many features it affords. I am quite pleased with how productive I can be with L3 and am humbled to know that there are others who are more proficient than I. I just can't figure out how to transfer all that productivity into my L4 experience yet. When I try things, I get unexpected results and can't figure out how to reverse what I've done. And then some features have not yet been implemented to the same level of functionality as L3.