NA28 w/Critical Apparatus Hebrew Equivalent?
The NA28 with the critical apparatus seems like an outstanding resource. Is there an equivalent for the Hebrew Old Testament?
Alex
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Alexander Fogassy said:
equivalent for the Hebrew Old Testament?
If you already own NA28 you should also check the different German Bible Society bundles that contain both BHS and NA28:
https://www.logos.com/product/55088/stuttgart-scholarly-editions-core-bundle
https://www.logos.com/product/55086/stuttgart-scholarly-editions-old-and-new-testament
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I just remembered that there is a useful product guide that lists the different Hebrew Bible texts available in Logos:
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Adding to HJ and for more in-depth:
- Keep in mind the NA28 and UBS5 apparati approach the problem differently; indeed each apparatus picks and chooses by necessity.
- Logos has a NT apparatus PB file (free) from LaParola.net that is good, especially with the fathers.
- The BHS apparatus is kind of loosy-goosy; it does touch base on more significant varients. If you get lucky on Quinta (HJ's Logos' page), much better. But more often then not, running parallel using Gottingen often works.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise,
Can you expound? My understanding is that Quinta is not out yet.
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The Quinta is already out in parts (fascicles). It promises a more extensive apparatus.
At the current rate of progression, it might see completion in 2020.
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Adding to Lee, this page has a nice discussion: https://www.logos.com/resources/LLS_BHQCAPP/biblia-hebraica-quinta-apparatus-criticus
The product page isn't accurate: https://www.logos.com/product/17823/bhq-with-critical-apparatus-including-minor-prophets-and-proverbs
So far, they actually have Deu, Jdg, Ruth, Cant, Qoh, Lam, Esther, Ezr, Neh, plus the minor prophets.
I (personally) don't have much need for the histories. If they completed Jos, Isa and Jer, that'd be fine! Gen maybe. But pretty good so far, The Logos formatting is pretty wild, but so it goes.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Okay thank you. So the BHQ would have all the features of previous editions? I.e. morphology, etc.
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and is there any competition with the BH series or is that pretty much the be-all end-all?
I wonder if there is a resource that goes over the differences, philosophies behind different works, etc. I'm new to this field.
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Alexander Fogassy said:
Okay thank you. So the BHQ would have all the features of previous editions? I.e. morphology, etc.
BHQ doesn't include morphology (similarly NT editions with apparatus don't include morpholgy). The primary value is the apparatus. 'Previous editions' is pretty open; most work off of a very narrow manuscript base.
Alexander Fogassy said:and is there any competition with the BH series or is that pretty much the be-all end-all?
I wonder if there is a resource that goes over the differences, philosophies behind different works, etc. I'm new to this field.
Within Logos-land BHQ is as good as you get (apparatus). Of course, commentaries expand, and then if you're fluent in especially hebrew, you have another major world to work with.
Going back to your original query, and something decently close to your NA28 experience:
But his big brother is much better, to include the LXX apparatus and BHQ. It also has the latin (Vulgate) apparatus, which periodically is a clue.
https://www.logos.com/product/55084/stuttgart-scholarly-editions-old-testament
The latter is dynamic priced, so getting the former, can lead to the latter. Though my own opinion, save your pennies up and get the latter. You'll learn much more, just in familiarity.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Alexander Fogassy said:
I wonder if there is a resource that goes over the differences, philosophies behind different works, etc. I'm new to this field.
Forgot to answer. That's a REALLY wide-ranging question. I know what you're wondering, but I've never seen it. Sort of an A to Z on how everything got here. Mss's, translations, morphs, differences, etc.
The best on the hebrew side:
https://www.amazon.com/Textual-Criticism-Hebrew-Bible-Emanuel/dp/0800626877/ It's quite affordable; not in Logos, and worth every penny.
https://www.amazon.com/Textual-Criticism-Hebrew-Bible-English/dp/0800696646/ Its more expensive twin.
I don't know of something similar on the NT side. Lots (and lots) of little in-depth pieces, or broad-brush over-simplifications.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Okay, great Denise that is all very helpful.
What do you mean that there is "another world" for those skilled a biblical Hebrew? I thought that's what these works were fore...
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Alexander Fogassy said:
What do you mean that there is "another world" for those skilled a biblical Hebrew? I thought that's what these works were fore...
For hebrew, the jewish world, the books much centerred in Israel. And the german offers another world as well for text critical, etc.
Logos english tends to reflect 'fully-digested'. I joke too much.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Interesting. Too bad we can't have access to all of it all at once
. Do you think the "big brother" bundle you mentioned represents top-tier scholarship that won't be rivaled?
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Won't be rivaled? Scholarship does advance, albeit slowly.
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Alexander Fogassy said:
Do you think the "big brother" bundle you mentioned represents top-tier scholarship that won't be rivaled?
In Logos, I doubt they’ll go beyond BHQ; there’s another one being worked, but I forget its name.
For LXX, the apparatus is ok-ish. Gottengin (in Logos.com) is the goto, but for very few Logosians, realistically. If you do OT-greek, it’s worth it.
For the Vulgate, it’s all we’re likely to see. It’s also ok-ish; handy.
Bottom-line: the ‘big boy’ is a good fit. Again, assuming you enjoy NA28’s apparatus.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Okay well NA28 aside, what in your opinion is the best Greek and Hebrew resource?
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Okay, well NA28 aside, what in your opinion is the best Greek and Hebrew sources?
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Sources? Apparatus, lexicons, ...?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Both
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That's easy; Logos isn't a cornaecopia of choices in this area.
Hebrew:
Lexicons; HALOT. Some mention DCH, maybe because more concise for quick use. TDOT is a good supplement.
Apparatus: Big-boy as above; you need the basic one for coverage; Quinta for more depth.
LXX:
Lexicons: LSJ to get back to that general time period, but always guessing.
Apparatus: Gottingen, easy.
Syriac:
Lexicons: Compendious/Paine
Apparatus: Leiden
Latin:
Lexicons: Lewis & Short
Apparatus: no critical editions
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Okay great thank you so much. I have been thinking of HALOT...right now I only have BDB. I'm about to go into my second semester of Hebrew, so perhaps my knowledge is too limited to really appreciate either.
You say Logos isn't the greatest when it comes to choices...what are some titles you wish they offered and I thought that this kind of thing was Logos "bread and butter"?
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If you scan Accordance, the two are pretty much the same choices these days, ignoring price.
And at this point, your subject area defines your 'outside-Logos'. Which journals. Which POV's (I mentioned Tov earlier). Logos tends to not stray too far from either the early 1900s, both OT and NT. The jewish-side (understandably) doesn't stray too far from pre-LXX. So, you're on your own, elsewise.
I arrived from the sceptic (fundementalist apologetics) and technologist side. So, I leave the train fairly early, absent data. I wrote software to evaluate the authorship, and timing of the hebrew. Then, likely redaction layers and from whense. Ditto the OT/NT greek, pseudepigrapha, and early fathers.
I would not be a good opinion for you!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I don't know why you aren't a good opinion.
Do you think your training in this area has cast doubt on the reliability of our manuscripts?
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'Reliability' depends on comparing to something else. And therein lies the problem. Take, for example, 'Paul' from a writings perspective. Who is he?
You can take the Paulines, feed it into your neural software, and have it learn how to write 'Paul'. But is that really 'Paul' or several Pauls (the 'signature')? So, you scan each writing (and section) and see if the neural had trouble reproducing 'Paul'. And indeed, the neural has trouble with 1 Tim, Titus, but not 2 Tim. And 2 Thes is error prone, but 1 Thes isn't.
And so on. Eventually, you arrive at degrees of consistency and easy matches, vs more difficult. 2 Cor is an easy match to Gal, but not 1 Cor. So, then you start scanning 1 Cor to see where the trouble is. Was it redacted? The Paulines arrived as a package fairly late; not individually. And so on. Choosing manuscript groups can alter the signatures, so they have to be checked.
From a technical point, there's no 'reliability' unless you had the original. And if you did, you'd be done.
The OT is similar. By and large, the neural nets, having no knowledge of hebrew (just gibberish being fed) reflect general opinions about the books. Deu tends to match early Isa but not late-Isa. Late-Isa easily matches the Chronicles and Ezr/Neh. And so forth. But since you don't have an original, it's mainly a series of matches ... very similar to a puzzle.
If indeed, you can 'nail' a writing to a time period, and for several time-points, then you can measure style-shifts. And then match against the texts to locate possible redactions and maybe when.
Hopefully you can see the computing problem.
'Doubts' don't exist, except relative to a claim. That's why I'm a 'literalist' ... deal with what's there. Everything else is guesses.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Interesting thoughts. I wonder if you are familiar with the works of Dr. Michael Kruger. He has done some really good work in this area.
Back to the topic: do you have the BHS with morphology? (I guess there's only one, looking at this one https://www.logos.com/product/27271/biblia-hebraica-stuttgartensia-with-werkgroep-informatica-vrije-universiteit-morphology).
If so, could you post a screenshot of what "goodies" this product gives you? The Logos page talks about "verbal pointing" and enhanced morphology in Logos...but there's no video. I'd love to see exactly how it presents itself.Thanks!
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Denise said:
Some mention DCH, maybe because more concise for quick use.
I think it's also possible that DCH also includes more sources than HALOT, because of the publication of more DSS manuscripts in the intervening years?
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Mary-Ellen said:Denise said:
Some mention DCH, maybe because more concise for quick use.
I think it's also possible that DCH also includes more sources than HALOT, because of the publication of more DSS manuscripts in the intervening years?
That's true! And why I got DCH, when it was prepub'd.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Alexander Fogassy said:
If so, could you post a screenshot of what "goodies" this product gives you? The Logos page talks about "verbal pointing" and enhanced morphology in Logos...but there's no video. I'd love to see exactly how it presents itself.
Sorry, been on vacation; no PC. I was going to upload screenshots of the 7 choices, but the forum software server not accepting. I really wish Logos could learn how to sell their own resources. It's been mysteryland back to 2005 at least. Buy and return.
Some notes on each:
1. Lexham Hebrew. The advantage here is it crosses all the Logos resources. Gets updates. The morphs are standard and include glosses. A separate interlinear uses these morphs. Used to use Andersen-Forbes morphs (below).
2. BHW 4.18. Standard morphs; no glosses. But probably the most non-Logos up to date, in Logos.
3. BHS 2.0. Standard morphs, though the glosses are more specific. 5th corrected;1997
4. BHS/WIVU. 4th corrected. The morph popups similar to BHW. Primary value is the structural tree diagrams, and syntax queries. See product page for more detail.
5. BHQ. No morphs; apparatus only. But the text itself will be useful (and apparatus).
6. Andersen-Forbes Analyzed Text. I guess my favorite. They expanded the morph-tags. Structural trees. Syntax search. In Libronix, they included videos on how to use.
7. BHt. A 'recent' delivery and has a very involved tagging (and display). Primary value is in involved searches.
Bottom-line: everyday use, LHB with or without interlinear. After that, depends on your needs.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Interesting. Thank you Denise.
As I research more and more what Faithlife offers (various critical apparatus, so many Church Father works, and I just discovered Noet -- untold philosophical research just waiting to be done) I find myself wishing I had an unlimited amount of capital to just buy it all up as I pleased.
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Denise said:
7. BHt. A 'recent' delivery and has a very involved tagging (and display). Primary value is in involved searches.
The cryptology of BHt points to https://www.logos.com/product/27275/biblia-hebraica-transcripta
It is a transcription, which means an augmented transliteration. It has more information than just a transliteration.
Searches find words, roots, and morphology, but with some ingenuity can be used for syntax and clause searches. Good for language nerds.
Some screenshots:
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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I came across this, may be an interesting book although it is not the answer for the original question. I guess it will be many days before it is available for the users in Logos.
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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Veli Voipio said:
I came across this, may be an interesting book although it is not the answer for the original question. I guess it will be many days before it is available for the users in Logos.
I was a little queasy about another intro book. So I checked on the Hosea peshitta book. I was all ready to order, and then I saw ‘Brill’:
https://www.amazon.com/Translation-Translator-Monographs-Institute-Amsterdam-Studies/dp/9004288309
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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