After reading the product guide, I realized that I want to buy a theological dictionary:
Unabridged Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Kittel) Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (3 Volumes) Theological Lexicon of the New Testament (3 volumes)
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Harris, Archer and Waltke) TheologicalLexicon of the Old Testament (3 volumes) The New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis (NIDOTTE - 5 volumes, under development)Could you suggest one each for OT and NT (can be out from the list)?
Thanks!
What base package do you have?
Something you might like to consider is upgrading to the Scholar's Library.
That will give you both Kittel and TWOT, and many other books as well, so it may be the most cost-effective solution long-term.
Compare the list with what you already have.
I got an error when trying to click on the above Compare link in Allen's post. Hovering over it popped up the correct URL: http://www.logos.com/comparison
But the status bar showed that where it really was going to try to go when I clicked on it was: http://community.logos.com/forums/AddPost.aspx/
Bizarre. Anyway, the correct link is: http://www.logos.com/comparison
After reading the product guide, I realized that I want to buy a theological dictionary: Unabridged Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Kittel)
Unabridged Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Kittel)
In an earlier posting I thought you said you have the TDNT.?
I like the TDNT. I think it is more comprehensive. I just compared the TDNT and the EDNT. The TDNT has a lot more information on Aaron qnd some comparison with Christ as priest. The information on Aaron from the EDNT was a little common. I do not have the third lexicon listed.
I will let another person help with the OT.
After reading the product guide, I realized that I want to buy a theological dictionary: Unabridged Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Kittel) ... Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Harris, Archer and Waltke) In an earlier posting I thought you said you have the TDNT.?
After reading the product guide, I realized that I want to buy a theological dictionary: Unabridged Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Kittel) ... Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Harris, Archer and Waltke)
...
Yes, here's the post where you said you own Scholar's, which already has TDNT and TWOT:
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/12198/95622.aspx#95622
I know you were particularly concerned about not buying duplicate resources in the past (http://community.logos.com/forums/t/11869.aspx). I also see that you were having some problem with TDNT not showing up in your library even though you owned it already: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/11372.aspx. Make sure you have fully resolved that issue (and check to be sure you've got TWOT too; you should have it) instead of going out and buying them now.
When in doubt about what you should have already, check www.logos.com/comparison.
Rosie
Do you ever sleep? [|-)]
Rosie Do you ever sleep?
Do you ever sleep?
I'm beginning to think that Rosie has an IV feeding coffee directly into her veins by her computer. [C]
Um, not enough. I go through waves of getting only 4-5 hours a night (sometimes even less) and then I go through stretches of catching up and being really good about taking care of myself. Right now I'm in one of those bad waves. I thought I'd committed to staying on a healthy work/sleep schedule starting at the beginning of Lent, but a deadline to get an article finished (which I've been procrastinating on -- by continuing to check the Logos forum for any new posts about every 5 minutes!) and the Olympic Fever which has hit Vancouver have been making it really hard for me to keep my commitment. But hey, at least I got to see the USA-CAN Hockey game yesterday, and it was awesome! But I still haven't finished that article, and the editor is breathing down my neck... It was due Friday. I love Logos, but I've got to stop playing with it. It is really killing my work!
I'm beginning to think that Rosie has an IV feeding coffee directly into her veins by her computer.
Close. Diet Coke. I go through 3 to 4 20-oz. (591 ml) bottles a day.
My wife absolutely loves diet coke. She gets a 7-eleven Super Big Gulp every day on her way to work. Its her "coffee."
Regarding Kittel, one should be aware of certain "issues" and not swallow everything he says with out discernment. Below is a summary Prof. Mark G. Vitalis Hoffman wrote concerning Kittel, which can be accessed under his October 19th blog post (http://bibleandtech.blogspot.com/search/label/lexicon) concerning Greek English Lexical resources (it is a hyperlink to a word document when you click "drawbacks" in his post about the TDNT). Here is what he wrote:
Kittel, Gerhard and Gerhard Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
1. Kittel and Friedrich’s work is a monumental corntribution to NT studies, and took about 30 years to complete in the original German.
2. Like Brown, it focuses on theologically significant words, and is arranged by root, so, sometimes, a word may not be where you think it would be, particularly if it has a prepositional prefix (such as sun).
3. It is in 10 vols., with v. 10 containing a prehistory of the TDNT, full names and brief bios of the contributors, including the contributed articles, and indexes (Greek, English, Scripture).
4. An abridged, 1 v. edition, based on the English terms, has also been issued.
5. The TDNT is very reliable for Greek (Classical and Hellenistic), LXX and NT word usages.
6. Do NOT rely on it for what it says about Judaism.
a. Especially in the editions edited by Kittel.
b. Kittel was an urbane, sophisticated and intelligent man, whose father, Rudolf Kittel, edited the Biblica Hebraica.
c. He was also a Nazi, and wrote some vicious anti-Semitic tracts during the war (I know, I cataloged one)
d. Indeed, he was imprisoned by the French after WW2, and died in his 50’s in about 1947 I believe. See the book, Hitler’s Theologians.
7. There has also been some disagreement on the method of a theological lexicon such as the TDNT, since words meaning are important in context (see J. Barr, Semantics of Biblical Language, 1962).
a. That is, no word contains all possible ramifications when it is used, as we know from the term “awful” which used to mean to be full of awe or awe inspiring.
b. When we use the word, we seldom think that an “awful” experience is one that inspires awe, but dread.
8. Yet, despite reservations, the TDNT provides important insights in how words were used both in the NT as well as its contemporary environment and the LXX.
Regarding Kittel, one should be aware of certain "issues" and not swallow everything he says with out discernment.
Michael, a couple of questions. Have you researched the academic credibility of Mr. Hoffman? Are his view points supported by other academics in the field of biblical linguistics?I notice that while he says Do NOT rely on it for what it says about Judaism." but he gives no specifics or evidence that TDNT promotes an anti-semitic agenda. Have you seen any?
BTW, please don't read any adverse emotions into this post, I just found the referenced blogger's arguments unconvincing and incomplete, especially when he ended his review with "I find that I don't check it that often, because I don't have time to read through the oftentimes very lengthy entries! ". His major concern seemed to be one of time, not bias.
Michael, a couple of questions. Have you researched the academic credibility of Mr. Hoffman? Are his view points supported by other academics in the field of biblical linguistics?I notice that while he says Do NOT rely on it for what it says about Judaism." but he gives no specifics or evidence that TDNT promotes an anti-semitic agenda. Have you seen any? BTW, please don't read any adverse emotions into this post, I just found the referenced blogger's arguments unconvincing and incomplete, especially when he ended his review with "I find that I don't check it that often, because I don't have time to read through the oftentimes very lengthy entries! ". His major concern seemed to be one of time, not bias.
Anti-Semitic biases of Kittel and some other contributors to the TDNT have been well documented and a wide-spread opinion within scholarship. A Google search for Kittel and Anti-Semitism will give some examples of articles and books that been written. I have not personally read a catalog of questionable statements in TDNT validating this claim but I have read this judgment from sources I trust.
Personally, I use Kittel sparingly because of these concerns and the methodological weaknesses (in my view) of the theological dictionary approach.
Kevin, I wasn't disputing Kittel's anti-semitic bias (or activities.), what I was talking about was the assertion without evidence of that bias within the TDNT. Now if he had referenced M. Casey, 'Some Anti-Semitic Assumptions in the TDNT',NovT 41 (1999), or a similar work, You wouldn't have heard a peep out of me. Just because someone says something, doesn't meant it is true. I was simply asking whether the poster had researched the blogger's statements or was taking them at face value. Then I commented on the lack of consistency within the referenced blogger's own arguments.
BTW, I found Casey's work by using Google. [:P] (TDNT AND anti-semitic)
"Mr." Hoffman is a Greek/NT professor at Lutheran Theological Seminary.
http://www.gettysburgseminary.org/mhoffman/
He uses and reviews computer Bible software.
And yes, his warnings about the TDNT are accurate, and apply more to the earlier than later volumes. The authors were somewhat guilty of the etymological fallacy, IIRC, which James Barr ( big name in linguistics/Semitics) took serious issue with.
I don't use TDNT since I'm a OT/Semiticist guy, but what he says was common knowledge in my program. Fortunately, by the time they got to the TDOT, the methodology had changed.
For what it is worth, any course on how to research would not utilize Kittel, or similar resources as primary, but secondary, for most reference. A basis for Kittel's conclusions should be examined on any point of research.
. Now if he had referenced M. Casey, 'Some Anti-Semitic Assumptions in the TDNT',NovT 41 (1999), or a similar work, You wouldn't have heard a peep out of me.
Now, Terry, what makes you think that NovT 41 is reliable? Just because it is in print and on a library shelf . . . . (or google result) [;)]
peace.
Anti-Semitic biases of Kittel and some other contributors to the TDNT have been well documented and a wide-spread opinion within scholarship. A Google search for Kittel and Anti-Semitism will give some examples of articles and books that been written. I have not personally read a catalog of questionable statements in TDNT validating this claim but I have read this judgment from sources I trust. Personally, I use Kittel sparingly because of these concerns and the methodological weaknesses (in my view) of the theological dictionary approach.
Thanks Kevin for that information. This bias is very important to me (to avoid) so I am glad you mention that.
But hey, at least I got to see the USA-CAN Hockey game yesterday, and it was awesome!
Off-Topic: ...Rossie, wait for the USA - Czech hockey duel. It will be the proper fight... (at finals?) [H]
P.S. Please guys, I know it is too late to take it back, so please don't kill me... [:)]
Now, Terry, what makes you think that NovT 41 is reliable? Just because it is in print and on a library shelf . . . . (or google result)
I didn't say it was reliable [:P], I didn't even say that I read it. [:P] But at least its focus is the point at hand, and not a bland assertion or guilt by association. Sorry guys, this had nothing to do with Kittel, or TDNT. This have everything to do with not believing something just because someone said so.
On a similar point, I repeatedly encourage my SS classes to check the reference material that the Pastor cites from the Pulpit. But then we all know that a Pastor would never lie, exaggerate or stretch the truth to behind the pulpit, don't we.
BTW, you won't be hearing from me much more. I have hooked up with this gentleman over seas that has a business proposition, he has come into quite a bit of money and needs some one to launder it for him in the states. I just forwarded him my bank account information so he can deposit my initial commission directly in to my account. I AM GOING TO BE RICH and won't have time for the forums anymore.
Yes, here's the post where you said you own Scholar's
5. The TDNT is very reliable for Greek (Classical and Hellenistic), LXX and NT word usages.6. Do NOT rely on it for what it says about Judaism.
How about NIDNTT and NIDOTT? I read some of its sample and found that it seems great. And actually I pre-order it before. And I want to make sure that it is the one I need or not.
And, do you have other suggestions on a theological dictionary (of OT or NT) that is out of the list suggested by Logos but is better?
Hi Terry,
Regarding my post - I can understand your concern about believing bloggers. I was just trying to provide a brief summary of Kittel, which I thought Prof. Hoffman did well. I guess my brevity was too brief.
I have never met Prof. Hoffman, except on forums where he answered some Bibleworks and Logos questions for me concerning lexicons. From the little I know of his theology, I know that there would be major points where we would disagree, but when it comes to his experience with Greek and greek resources, his reviews are quite thorough, and his use and experience of various lexicons is exstensive. I read a much more thorough and academic review of Kittel (which I believe he wrote, but I am not sure) which basically makes the same points the article I quoted previously make. The quote was part of a much larger article that was summarizing the differences - strengthes and weaknesses - of various lexicons. I believe that this particular work was meant only to be a summary for students, and not a scholarly review.
In any case, I was just trying to be brief in my post, hence why I quoted Prof. Hoffman's summary. However your concerns are valid - we should read all things with discernment, especially the internet.
[B] Cheers
Regarding my post - I can understand your concern about believing bloggers. I was just trying to provide a brief summary of Kittel, which I thought Prof. Hoffman did well. I guess my brevity was too brie
Michael, thank you for your post, it made me aware of possible problems with TDNT, for which I have a bias. There is nothing more impressive to a young Christian learning Greek than to see those 10 volumes on taking up a full shelf in his Pastor's office [;)]
The quote was part of a much larger article that was summarizing the differences - strengthes and weaknesses - of various lexicons.
Could you give me the link?
Thanks.
Hi Kolen,
I can't link precisely to the document because it is a word file and I am not sure how to link to hyperlink word files.
The hyperlink to the document is found here: http://bibleandtech.blogspot.com/search/label/lexicon. When you get to the discussion about the TDNT and see the word "drawbacks" underlined - that hyperlink will take you to the article I mentioned.
One caveat I want to mention: the page that describes Lexicons also suggests other books. I, personally, do not agree with all his recommendations - especially when it comes to commentaries. I am a confessional Lutheran, where as professor Hoffman describes himself as a liberal Lutheran. Theologically speaking, there is a great distance between the two. Just to be clear that I am in no way endorising his suggestions. I am just providing a handy reference.
Thanks so much!
Rosie,
I am glad you post on this board. Always helpful.
But hey, at least I got to see the USA-CAN Hockey game yesterday, and it was awesome! Off-Topic: ...Rossie, wait for the USA - Czech hockey duel. It will be the proper fight... (at finals?)
Off-Topic: ...Rossie, wait for the USA - Czech hockey duel. It will be the proper fight... (at finals?)
Oh, so sad. Finland beat the Czech team, so we don't get to see USA - Czech. [:(]
By the way, Czech is the best name for a men's hockey team, because they check all the time. Hee hee![;)]
Finland beat the Czech team
Yea, if only I was quiet. Let us turn the subject [:$]
I hope resuming this post from 2010 make sense.
I love my new buy NIDOTTE, so much that I bought NIDNTT.
Now i'm curious if I should add BDAG, HALOT, EDNT, TDNT (or the concise one), or any IVP.
I've read all the post on the forum, and still I cannot get from people who have some of them, which one would be nice to get. I love TLOT, generally I like DBL, BDB and NASB, but the fact I don't translate seems to push me to use more Theological Dictionaries than Lexical Dictionaries.
So, your opinion, which Theological one can I add to TLOT, NIDOTTE, NIDNTT, and get something more than I already see?
Ps. I am struggling with the issue to decide if I want to buy EDNT or TDNT, and in the second case, if the little kittel would be enough
Here one http://community.logos.com/forums/p/13331/103059.aspx#103059
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/14441/110885.aspx#110885
just hit "space" once after posting a link
or Return
Thx!
Paolo, you're driving us crazy! Normally the standard answer for hebrew/greek is BDAG/HALOT (which Logos packages together to allow saving money).
However I'll admit BDAG and HALOT do their best to confuse, if one is not somewhat familiar with the problem.
Frankly, if I were you, I'd want a basic solid lexicon: my favorite I use in church for quick lookup is AMG Complete Word Studies (there's one for the OT and one for the NT). They're quick, not fancy. And affordable too.
Regarding more theological resources, of course you want TWOT and TDNT. Both are very wordy; definitely more wordy than your new NIDOTTE for example. I rarely use either one, though I have them.
Thanks, I checked https://www.logos.com/product/9438/amg-bible-essentials and looks so promising and rewarding. But there is not mobile version, which I use.
i will consider for later use. TWOT? Logos doesnt sell it anymore :-(
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