Logos Now and Faithlife Connect: The Why

135678

Comments

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    danwdoo said:

    Are these connect tiers like the base packages where the books are periodically switched out for new ones with new versions of Logos?

    Yes, which is one of the reasons it's hard to dynamically price them... they will be changing as our contracts change, as our base package libraries change, etc. (Just as which movies Netflix offers is changing every month.) We believe this to be a benefit, and hope you'll generally see the value grow, not just change. 

    With that said, I don't expect the changes to be frequent, or massive. They may more often follow major changes in our base packages.

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    m wilson said:

    Let's suppose your dream came true and the entire church used FL software: then what? Where will you get the new customers and new revenue streams that you WILL NEED since, your business model requires that you can never stop growing? When is enough ever enough?

    This is a classic problem for all businesses; the answer is generally 'adjacent markets' -- hence Faithlife TV, Faithlife Proclaim, etc. (Sometimes it is demographics -- the country is growing too, and the population continues to increase....)

    It would be nice to say "my business is done, and we can freeze at this size" -- and some very tiny businesses do that. (Restaurants, a flower shop, etc.) But that's harder when you're bigger or where you employ in categories where people's skills (and payroll expectations) grow more quickly than your pricing does. When you hire, say, software developers right out of college, you need more than 1% revenue growth just to meet their increasing pay expectations as they gain experience. A restaurant can just 'always hire the same person' at the same wage by having 100% annual staff turnover -- skills requirements are low, recruiting is cheap, and training is short. It's harder to do in our business.

    And then add into all that our maturing (in years with us, not age!) customer base, which I described earlier, which spends less over time while keeping most support costs constant... 

    You're right -- we have to keep growing.

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    Thinking said:

    Notice that Bob is no longer saying that a subscription only model won't happen, he is now saying he doesn't "plan" for it to happen.

    I'm sorry if I created confusion; I didn't mean to change any phrasing or plan... I do think it's a bad idea to say 'never' -- we hope to be here a long time and we have no idea what the future holds 20+ years out -- but we are not planning / hoping / designing for a subscription only world. In many ways the transactional world is much better for us; our business works better with larger amounts up front. But it's getting harder and harder to sign up new customers for that larger initial purchase, and even the technology platforms are moving to designs that discourage downloaded desktop software, which creates ongoing support / update costs even if users would have been happy to just 'stay with what worked'.

    But we want to offer both, and nothing I said here was meant to signal any change in that plan.

  • Dave Thawley
    Dave Thawley Member Posts: 621 ✭✭

    HI Bob,

    Thank you so much for taking the time to explain your companies decision to introduce this.  My concern is the way that everything is lumped together which I know your e-mail touches upon with an analogy.  It sounds like the reason for the product introduction is to keep revenue flowing in order for you to develop the product, run the business and make a profit.  This makes sense total sense from your side of the fence and I can understand why as a business you want this. From my perspective as a customer I want this too, if only to see the product develop and be available in 20 years time so we are on the same page there.   I would also like to thank you for the "break in" period and I have to say I feel you have looked after me personally over the next year so thank you for this.  My criticism is the bundling of features which we may or may not want seems unfair.  For example I have a lot of the books in the bundle you are including but I have to effectively pay for these again (month after month). How about doing something smart and including books we don't already own, or giving us a discount for stuff we already own. Also I love Mobile Ed but I want to own the courses for future reference so renting them for 6 months is for me pointless - how about letting us buy the courses as a very much reduced rate or even giving us them as part of the subscription.  What you have suggested  may be workable but I think you need to be customer driven and not revenue driven - aim for customer satisfaction and you will hit your revenue targets - aim for revenue targets and you are likely to miss both.

    Please consider applying this product in a better way :-) 

    Thanks

  • Mark
    Mark Member Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭

    Contents of the collections will change over time as we're able to negotiate different terms, as we get usage data and history, etc.

    If you know you're going to be a 20 year user, then you probably do want to purchase content

    Bob

    You have just convinced me that once again, my thinking is correct and I have a right to be confused by what you are doing.  Mark Barnes' question is the similar to what I had and posted on another thread introducing Faithlife Connect.  What if I want 10,000 resources?  FLC does not offer such a deal. Currently I have 18,500 resources, some which are no longer sold because you no longer have a license to sell them. 

    Some people want specific books.  Can they rent specific commentaries, books, resources?  It seems by your answer that purchasing is always going to be necessary, and thus a hybrid is the only possible way to go. 

    If your statistics say that many do not own for 20 years, I think you may be reading the statistics wrong.  There will clearly be a crowd that will own for a few years as they go through school.  But have you considered the possibility that the customer is not long term because the program is confusing, has a huge learning curve, expensive and changes like this that you are now presenting causes customers to be wary of what is going on. 

    People want to build a library.  There are books I have collected which I do not need now but will need later and I want them in my library.  There are books you no longer have a license to sell which are in my library.  The subscription model has a place for a particular target audience and should be developed.  But I think you underestimate the desire of many to build a library.  How does offering 2737 books in the ultimate plan fulfill the desire of someone to build a library of their choice?  Perhaps if you offer a package where the subscriber can CHOOSE what 2737 would be in his plan....that would make it an attractive deal not just for ultimate, but for all the plans.

  • Bootjack
    Bootjack Member Posts: 752 ✭✭

    Andre, do you actually save by waiting till Logos 8, especially if you're back to Logos 5 or 6. Personally, I had Logos 6 before hurling myself into LN. I figured I might as well buy Logos 7 and it will lessen the cost of 8 a little bit at least. What say ye? 

    MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home

  • PetahChristian
    PetahChristian Member Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭

    Bob, do you expect Logos 8 to be released before our Logos Now subscription expires (November 2018)?   Otherwise it would be hard to know whether we should use our credit to buy the Logos 7 Full Feature set or to wait for the features that will come with Logos 8.

    I haven't seen anything official about when L8 will be released, but Phil recommended that it would be better to wait for L8.

    Bootjack said:

    I figured I might as well buy Logos 7 and it will lessen the cost of 8 a little bit at least. What say ye?

    According to the Phil's post, it works out better to wait. L8 introductory pricing would be one reason for the savings. Not sure what other factors make it cheaper to hold off.

    Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    Don Awalt said:

    The crux of the issue is that FL has developed a lot of extra stuff that is not profitable.

    Don, this would be a great analysis, except that one thing is reversed: those 'extra things' aren't the unprofitable part... it's the 'free' Bible software that's unprofitable. Selling it in a bundle model (bundled with books, and now other stuff) is what made the whole thing profitable.

    Don Awalt said:

    more ancillary products, services, offerings have been bundled in - and by necessity the price is doubled

    Saying we should drop the ancillary stuff so we can keep the cost lower is a bit like saying the car dealer should not offer the free weatherproof floor mats, and just drop the price of the car in half. The floor mats weren't what was taking the price up.... :-)

    At the root of this problem is that our component prices aren't lined up with our component costs.

    When we build a bundle, of 'software + books + other stuff', we can price that bundle to cover the costs. And (for old and historic reasons) we acted like the cost to you was 0% for software, 100% for books, and 0% for other stuff.

    That was never true -- the software got subsidized by the books. Now our costs are changing (need to code for multiple tech platforms, increased cost of software development, and more) while we've gotten better at books (they cost us less to make).

    And at the same time, the market is changing: long-time customers want more books, want more attention on software development that while important, attracts fewer new customers (new customers notice new features; experienced customers want more performance and polishing), and less other stuff.... and the market is changing where publishers want higher royalties on the books and competitors (with different structures and costs) are pushing the price of ebooks down... and in-app purchasing on mobile (growing platform) wants a 30% cut of revenue, not profit...

    So now we've got a cost structure for software + books + other stuff that may look more like:

    80% + 10% + 10%

    and users are saying "hey, I just want those software updates...maybe even just the free ones...and I have enough books and don't need that other stuff... so I'm willing to pay you 10% of the old bundle price -- just don't give me more books and other stuff I don't want."

    Which sounds very generous if you think our costs are 0% + 80% + 20%. But they aren't.

    I suppose one solution, as suggested here, is to force everyone to start paying for the software upgrades at a level that will cover their costs. But this is difficult for technical reasons (Apple doesn't let you update some mobile users and not others, and some updates are hard to gate to just some users without massive complexity)...

    And in light of the firestorm we see here for annoying the (tiny!) percentage of users who bought Logos Now, how much greater would the firestorm be if we changed the long-promised 'software updates are free' model? I think people would burn down our buildings....

    And this change doesn't break promises -- it just disappoints expectations. (We're delivering what we promised -- we just aren't continuing to offer this package in the future.) Changing the whole model to paid updates or your software goes stale / doesn't work on new operating systems would be actually breaking a promise.

    Sure, other companies 'bake in' these future costs, but they have smaller software, generally sell subscription-only, and don't have 25+ years of legacy (and size) to support... and I'll guess they'll have abandoned their product / shipped completely new things long before 25 years pass....

  • Brian Huddleston
    Brian Huddleston Member Posts: 77 ✭✭

    Bob,

    Thanks for the post.  I am like several others who chose LN as a way to support development efforts and use new features before they were offered in a package.  When I renewed this year, I wasn't thinking about a 6 week release cycle but about the features that I would likely use this year.  

    If the lowest offering had the Sermon Editor and a few other features that I use in LN, I'd maintain a subscription.  Since FL has sent a discount code towards the purchase of a package that would get me those features, there's no reason for me to be upset.  You've been more than fair and we've seen a better web product and feature sets along the way.  

    Wylie, TX

  • Donnie Hale
    Donnie Hale Member Posts: 2,036 ✭✭✭

    Bob,

    Thank you very much for the extended, detailed explanation behind the new direction. You don't owe us that, but I definitely appreciate it.

    Despite all of the data that you have gathered, I think there's an incorrect premise in your explanation. It's not that we wanted new features every 6 weeks - it's that we wanted to have the easiest possible way to make sure we always had all available features (including datasets). If you had rolled out significant new features annually, that would have been fine - I know that I'd have them.

    What I (and many others, based on all the threads) wanted was a known, fixed cost that ensured I'd have all the features. There are two reasons this is important: 1) I don't need any more large package book purchases; 2) FL's long-standing policy of not releasing feature-only upgrades on the day of major upgrades. As I said in another thread, if I knew for sure that I could upgrade on the day of release for the equivalent of $99/year, I'd be content. But we don't know what the day-of-release offerings are going to be, let alone the price. LN gave me predictability at an easy to swallow price point. That's disappeared.

    Further, if LN users only make up 1.8% of revenue - you admitted it wasn't as widely adopted as you'd hoped - what makes you think that Connect will have any better adoption rate? As I look at the price points, a new customer could buy packages that he/she would own for the annual cost of a subscription, which would disappear if the subscription is not renewed. It's not clear to me how Connect provides more incentive to adopt than LN.

    One last point: You made it clear that you're trying to ensure that you can have an appropriately profitable company - completely understandable. But the extra "benefits" in Connect Essentials surely cost something. So the price point for Essentials has to cover the costs for all Logos features plus 2 courses plus TV plus other resources plus whatever other "benefits" are included. What's the objection to offering a Logos-only subscription which doesn't have to cover those costs. As I read all the threads, the majority of respondents state that those benefits have been lightly used at best in LN and aren't actually of interest.

    I suspect your response will be: "That's all understandable, Donnie. That's why you can still buy the feature sets." That would be a perfectly fair response, but it would still miss my main point: The purchase price point for feature sets when major releases come out is unknown and unpredictable. $99/yr solves that problem for me (and I think many others).

    Thanks again for responding and answering so many questions. It's generous of you.

    Donnie

  • Paul Strickert
    Paul Strickert Member Posts: 335 ✭✭

    One trend I've seen in my part of the U.S. (and others have reported elsewhere) is a drop in regular church attendance.  Those who do attend, in my experience, seem less interested in serious Bible study.  To be honest, I'm alarmed that people show little interest in becoming more biblically literate.  I cannot help but wonder how this affects Bible software companies, especially Logos/FL, which caters to the pretty serious student of Scripture.

  • Stephen Steele
    Stephen Steele Member Posts: 707 ✭✭

    Forcing people like myself who have paid 10k, and have 10k still being paid off are on the short end of the stick when it comes to subscriptions.

    I don't have access to your individual email credit offer at the moment (I'm on the road), but I know that we're paying particular attention to users with significant investments in the purchased resources. If you've spent $10k with us, that's a significant investment we appreciate, and the difference in price between the two subscriptions is small in comparison. This should already have been addressed, or will be soon.

    Bob, I appreciate you taking time to address these concerns.

    I have invested over $19,800 in Logos but have been shunted onto Faithlife Connect Starter (which I have no interest in) and been given a coupon towards L8 which I'm confident won't cover the full feature set. I don't feel that in my case you are 'paying particular attention to users with significant investments in purchased resources'.

    Up until L6 I bought base packages, and only changed that pattern because we were led to believe that Logos Now was the future. I appreciate that hasn't worked out the way you had hoped, but now I feel that my only option is to revert to the purchase model. However if I do that and buy the L7 full feature set (which my credit would just about allow me to do), I'll be missing out on features brought out since L7 was released which I've become accustomed to using under Now membership.

    Even if I buy 8 I'll be missing out on ongoing new features for 2 years at a time until the next base package is released unless I pay for a subscription which is over twice the price of Logos Now. But even if I was starting again I wouldn't go down the Logos Connect model due to the paucity of quality resources even at the highest level.

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    Mark said:

    Some people want specific books.  Can they rent specific commentaries, books, resources?  It seems by your answer that purchasing is always going to be necessary, and thus a hybrid is the only possible way to go. 

    Maybe, at some point. But you're correct, it'll always be a hybrid, just as my video consumption from Amazon is -- I get lots of video in the subscription, the content of which constantly changes, and I also buy some specific titles that aren't available in subscription, or which I want to ensure I'll have future access to.

    Mark said:

    If your statistics say that many do not own for 20 years, I think you may be reading the statistics wrong.

    Only a small (vocal! and much appreciated!) minority of our customers use our software for 20 years. Many buy it and don't use it much after the first few months. Others buy it to get through school, and then their use fades. New subscriber customers may behave like other subscription models, with church as high as 2% per month.

    Some people know they're in for the short term, and subscription is best. Others know they're in for the long term, and they should purchase.

    Mark said:

    People want to build a library.

    Some people do. Just as some people still buy DVDs and organize their collections, or purchase the music they like. Other people own zero movies, zero DVDs, and just subscribe to Netflix and Spotify.

    We're trying to serve both audiences, and they are very, very different. (Another reason Logos Now particularly confused/frustrated new customers: it was half of each model....)

    We know that some people do want to build a library. But we're running into many other people who just want 'tools to help me' and ask 'what's the monthly cost?'

  • scooter
    scooter Member Posts: 781 ✭✭

    Bob, I am just amazed that you'd ask me to shell out $200 a month for access to less than 3,000 resources (Connect Ultimate).

    I very much appreciate, Mark, you taking the time to write an extensive reply [that I could not get to be quoted in its entirety].

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    What I (and many others, based on all the threads) wanted was a known, fixed cost that ensured I'd have all the features. There are two reasons this is important: 1) I don't need any more large package book purchases;

    Well, if you do subscribe to Faithlife Connect, you can still have that predictability, just at a higher cost. Because you're kind of making my point... we were pricing Logos Now in a way that still anticipated we'd get revenue subsidy from book purchases. But you have (understandably) become an "I don't need any more large package book purchases" customer, which means we're getting less revenue than was expected/needed to support the feature development you expect.

    Further, if LN users only make up 1.8% of revenue - you admitted it wasn't as widely adopted as you'd hoped - what makes you think that Connect will have any better adoption rate?

    Because Logos Now was (by definition) something we sold to people with a base package, and those base package customers turned out to (mostly) not care about it.... and it confused the messaging to new customers. Faithlife Connect is a clearer story (and a good value) for a new subscriber who isn't tacking it on top of a base package sale, and who may not be a 20-year user. And there may be many, many more people in the church who are willing to subscribe at a lower up front cost because their need is different. (Someone who signed up to be a small group leader this year... and who might not want to make a permanent, multi-hundred-dollar library purchase, or a student who wants to have extra tools to get through this semester...)

    We still offer full purchase, and even payment plans, to make the permanent licensing accessible too, but we're realizing there are different customer profiles.

    We may be wrong, in which case we'll adjust things again... but we're pretty certain there are people out there who aren't 'base + Now' customers, who want something simpler.

    The purchase price point for feature sets when major releases come out is unknown and unpredictable. $99/yr solves that problem for me (and I think many others).

    I know, and I'm sorry that particular option is going away... but it wasn't solving the problem for the costs to support it.

  • Kiyah
    Kiyah Member Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭✭

    As someone about to graduate from seminary, I was thinking that Now would have been an affordable way to stay up to date on the software without adding to my library. I didn't think I'd be able to afford the feature only packages going forward, and I've pretty much gotten my library to where I want it with the exception of some "nice-to-haves" that I probably won't end up buying.

    I don't think the primary value of Now was new features "every six weeks" so much as just up-to-date software without massive financial outlay. You could have been on an annual or semi-annual update schedule and it still would have been valuable.

    But if some people thought that "cool new features every six weeks" was the most important aspect of Logos Now, they had a lot of help coming to that conclusion...because that's how you marketed the product. You aggressively marketed this product, and one of the main talking points was new features every six weeks without having to wait for the next major update. I mean, you did name the offering Logos NOW, as in I can have new features NOW instead of waiting two years. You marketed Logos Now in every way imaginable. Many of your Logos Pro training videos are basically extended length advertisements for Logos Now, since you always made sure to include menu options that people didn't have unless they had Logos Now. That added to people's confusion because they would try to perform the actions in the training videos to discover they didn't have the feature that was being demonstrated, and it wasn't always explicitly called out that it was a Logos Now-only feature. My very detailed oriented mind (I was an accountant/financial analyst in my former life) means I automatically look for those little details, but not everybody thinks that way. They assume that if you show them something on a training video, they will be able to do it in their software.

    My point is that Faithlife creates a lot of their own problems through their own aggressive marketing/communication tactics. I see it over and over again every time you have a new product/service release or promotion. Every time, there is some level of confusion (usually mass-confusion) that can be directly traced back to vague/misleading communication or even out-and-out overselling of products offerings or promotions (meaning pretty much overstating or playing up offerings to the point that customers consistently think they're getting more than they actually are). You pretty much do have to have an accountant's or lawyer's eye for detail and precision to see what is really being said and what's not being said, and I see why the average person may get confused. You need to focus on clear communication in advertising going forward, or you will continue to have these problems.

    As many have said, the greatest value you offer is the actual software itself with all of the wonderfully helpful features. It has been indispensable during my seminary education. I love the software and the powerful tools it offers, and I hope to have a reasonably affordable way to keep my software up to date going forward. I know you need to make money, and I want your to business to be sustainable. One major reason I chose Logos over Accordance is that I thought you were more up to date on the latest technology trends in software, and thus would be more sustainable going forward since I was making a big investment in the future of any bible software program I chose. Keep up the good work and remember to continue to focus on what you're good at. Sorry for the long post, but I've wanted to say this for a long time but never felt like typing this much before and thought it would be overkill. [:)]

    Live long a prosper, Faithlife...seriously, live long and prosper.

  • Randy W. Sims
    Randy W. Sims Member Posts: 2,272 ✭✭✭

    it's the 'free' Bible software that's unprofitable.

    Stop developing free software. Sure, develop the engine, keep it tuned and running. That's what has been promised. Not all features have to be part of the base engine, do they? What if you kickstart features? Take all your feature ideas, uservoice ideas, write them up in a special area of CP and let people pay for the ones they want. 1) You get paid to develop it. 2) We get a say in what gets developed and the priority. It seems like this might have been mentioned before but I can't find it and don't remember the pluses/minuses that I'm surely missing.

    RE: Faithlife Connect. I wish, instead of starter, we had Logos Now (or something with a better name than starter) at the lowest tier. Fine, raise the price to $12.99. No FTV, No digital books. Two pluses: Those of us who like see features as they develop would continue to have access. We might complain about the price, but we all know it's got to go up eventually, and it's small enough to stomach; 2) It narrows the price gap to the next level while increasing the feature gap which should hopefully tempt a lot of people to make that leap. It's a very worthy leap to those who can afford it.

  • abondservant
    abondservant Member Posts: 4,796 ✭✭✭

    Thinking said:

    Notice that Bob is no longer saying that a subscription only model won't happen, he is now saying he doesn't "plan" for it to happen.

    But we want to offer both, and nothing I said here was meant to signal any change in that plan.

    Thats good, I sorta felt like a guy on a sinking boat that was watching the captain leap into the sea.

    L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,

  • Sojourner
    Sojourner Member Posts: 20 ✭✭

    danwdoo said:

    Are these connect tiers like the base packages where the books are periodically switched out for new ones with new versions of Logos?

    Yes, which is one of the reasons it's hard to dynamically price them... they will be changing as our contracts change, as our base package libraries change, etc. (Just as which movies Netflix offers is changing every month.) We believe this to be a benefit, and hope you'll generally see the value grow, not just change. 

    With that said, I don't expect the changes to be frequent, or massive. They may more often follow major changes in our base packages.

    Just trying to brainstorm some other ways to make this work better. Right now, I can only see this subscription as discouraging purchases. Would it be possible to pick the library we are subscribing to? For example, I own Standard Platinum. If I subscribe to FC, could I choose P&C rather than Standard? Assuming that going forward, FL will continue to keep the different denomination bundles. Could I be given a chance to change my subscription library every 6 or 9 months? This would allow me the ability to treat the subscription different mentally and provides less impact to dynamic pricing. I am assuming that most of your market purchases a Standard library. Rather than renting books I may own, my subscription would be to preview books I may buy.

    It's not ideal. There is no "ideal" solution based on what I have read so far. I'm trying to think of ways that could make this more palatable and encourage purchases.

  • Donn Arms
    Donn Arms Member Posts: 167 ✭✭

    Please answer a "but how does this affect ME" kind of question. I signed up for Now rather than upgrade to Logos 7. My thinking was that at $89 per year Now was a better deal than upgrading every two years. Had I known that Now would last less than two years I would have upgraded. So now, when L8 appears, I will not be upgrading from L7 but from L6. Am I better off upgrading now to the L7 "Starter feature set" (I do not need any more books) for my dynamic price of $50.20 and then to L8 at that time, or should I wait until L8 appears and upgrade then from L6? My email informs me I will get a $200 credit/coupon code.

  • PetahChristian
    PetahChristian Member Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭

    Donn Arms said:

    Am I better off upgrading now to the L7 "Starter feature set" (I do not need any more books) for my dynamic price of $50.20 and then to L8 at that time, or should I wait until L8 appears and upgrade then from L6?

    Phil recommended that it would be better to wait for L8.

    Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

  • Daniel Bender
    Daniel Bender Member Posts: 90 ✭✭

    I think you are completely wrong about the "primary value" of LN. The reason so many were sold on the membership is that it was an alternative to purchasing features. Users could "buy" books and have an inexpensive means to keep "up to date" on features. In your words, "just a few dollars each month."

    This is exactly why I joined LN

  • James Taylor
    James Taylor Member Posts: 1,408 ✭✭✭

    If you didn't get an email, ... contact us. We'll make it right.

    I hadn't received the email so I contacted customer service yesterday specifically asking about an email containing a coupon which I had read about on the forums, and 30 minutes later I received a generic customer service reply:

    Dear James,

     Thank you for contacting us! The information about Faithlife connect as you can see we have a lot of forums   https://community.logos.com/forums/p/160514/956980.aspx and information comes here https://connect.faithlife.com/ https://connect.faithlife.com/logos If you are a Logos now member, don’t worry you’re not losing anything actually you’re winning a lot more

    Here https://www.logos.com/compare/feature-sets shows you what are you winning

    Sincerely,

    Andrea Cruz
    Faithlife Support Department
    800-875-6467 | 360-527-1700 | UK Callers: 0(871)218-1700

    www.Logos.com/Support - Logos Support
    www.Logos.com/Videos - Training Videos
    You study with Logos, now present with Proclaim.

    There was no coupon or anything about credits or sales or special offers specific to me (and I would think I fall in the "handful of customers" who have spent over $20,000 on this investment over the last 7 or 8 years). And I will say I have been very impressed with Logos and Faithlife, but I would like to receive this email/coupon you've referred to. I just don't know who else to contact.

    Logos 10  | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 11 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone 13 Pro Max

  • Gregory Lawhorn
    Gregory Lawhorn Member Posts: 984 ✭✭✭

    Bob, thanks for explaining the situation so clearly. Obviously, no software company, Logos included, can continue to develop next year's product on last year's sales. The $18k I've spent was for the product that I downloaded and have used since, NOT for indefinite future releases. Paying a comparatively small amount for the feature set upgrade every couple of years (about $150 for Logos 7) is a really inexpensive way to make sure that my Macbook Pro and Logos continue to get along. I don't have to purchase the same books over again, so I don't see the problem. 

    Logos Now cost more to develop than it ever earned in subscriptions, and was adopted by so few that keeping it going made no sense. Purchase sales have flattened to the point where some kind of subscription model is necessary if Logos is to continue to function in the future. 

    Got it. 

    Thanks again for explaining it!

    Greg Lawhorn

  • William Gabriel
    William Gabriel Member Posts: 1,091 ✭✭

    Thinking said:

    We also need to support the pure transactional model for people who want to 'buy it, own it, and not have to pay again.' That's what we've always offered, and what we plan to continue to offer.

    That is a very worrisome statement. It is far less assuring than statements you have made in the past.

    I'm sorry -- I didn't mean it to be any different than past statements on the subject. We have no plans to discontinue the transactional model.

    Don't forget that you're on a forum of exegetes. Every word you say will get dissected for meaning, context and inference. Ironically, your software helped train us for that in part. Anyway, I'm going to fire up a couple of Logos Guides on this thread so that fully understand what everyone here is saying...

  • William Gabriel
    William Gabriel Member Posts: 1,091 ✭✭

    danwdoo said:

    Are these connect tiers like the base packages where the books are periodically switched out for new ones with new versions of Logos?

    Yes, which is one of the reasons it's hard to dynamically price them... they will be changing as our contracts change, as our base package libraries change, etc. (Just as which movies Netflix offers is changing every month.) We believe this to be a benefit, and hope you'll generally see the value grow, not just change. 

    With that said, I don't expect the changes to be frequent, or massive. They may more often follow major changes in our base packages.

    This frustrates me about Netflix. I cannot tell you how many shows I started watching to have them yanked out from under me. I nearly made it through Columbo and then it was just gone. Annoying, yes, but ultimately harmless since it's just entertainment.

    This is a completely different game. If someone is using a resource for study or research and it suddenly disappears, that could be catastrophic for them. They could just buy it if it's important to them, but I could see the irritation encouraging them to buy it elsewhere and start pulling them away from the Logos ecosystem. I'd simply encourage you to be careful about cycling through resources in a rental model.

  • Pastor Michael Huffman
    Pastor Michael Huffman Member Posts: 449 ✭✭

    I signed up for Logos Now to stay up to date with the latest features, that was the best value for me. Faithlife TV has become less and less desirable because there are the "same ole' programs and so many programs on there now  you have to purchase; so that is very little value to me. I will not be renewing and have been looking at Accordance Bible Software. To me, do not raise the prices on current customers. The problem that I have and I think that others are having is that they see the price being raised for no more benefits, and I did not see in the long explanation of Bob where the "extra" value is at this time. I appreciate the fact that you have given 9 months notice, but the fact remains that it is double the money for no more benefit. As customers we expect that you "did your homework" on price before you publish it and if you feel that you need to raise the price, it should be for more benefits if you are going to raise it that much. I believe that Logos is going to find that a lot of people will use the "credit" (which I do appreciate) to purchase the full feature set and not renew their faithlife Connect subscriptions (so I see that as Logos losing money). And unless you can add value to the increased price, more and more people will not renew. 

  • danwdoo
    danwdoo Member Posts: 584 ✭✭✭

    danwdoo said:

    Are these connect tiers like the base packages where the books are periodically switched out for new ones with new versions of Logos?

    Yes, which is one of the reasons it's hard to dynamically price them... they will be changing as our contracts change, as our base package libraries change, etc. (Just as which movies Netflix offers is changing every month.) We believe this to be a benefit, and hope you'll generally see the value grow, not just change. 

    With that said, I don't expect the changes to be frequent, or massive. They may more often follow major changes in our base packages.

    I understand this but do admit it's still a bit of a struggle for me. I completely get that price increases are needed and I am fine with that. I want the program to continue to improve and as I find it an invaluable resource, I am willing to pay for that. It's renting books that give me pause personally. I would rather have 14 books I get permanently rather than 140 rentals that may change, albeit infrequently. Perhaps I am in a small minority in this. I am totally fine with the other bundled features such as TV, courses, etc as they are ways to get the price where you need it to be and yet allow you to offer more than just the software for that additional price. It may be that I will just need to switch to a download package. I do admit I would really miss the free classic book if I did that. I always look forward to that search for a gem each month. It is a little hard that we have to wait with the uncertainty of all this for a while until we have the full details on Logos 8, though I understand why you had to announce this change now based on Now subscriptions ending.

  • Keith Pang
    Keith Pang Member Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭

    Don‘t use Greg’s suggestion of making people pay for the new engines that’s not smart. You will lose pretty much a huge part of your customers. Instead how about just giving the new engine with no features so it runs but people will pay for features

    Keith Pang, PhD Check out my blog @ https://keithkpang.wixsite.com/magnifyingjesus

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 33,127

    Instead how about just giving the new engine with no features so it runs but people will pay for features

    This has been standard practice in the past - but typically about three months after the release of the major upgrade.

    This is currently available - for example - with Logos Basic

  • Keith Pang
    Keith Pang Member Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭

    Instead how about just giving the new engine with no features so it runs but people will pay for features

    This has been standard practice in the past - but typically about three months after the release of the major upgrade.

    This is currently available - for example - with Logos Basic

    I know, but Greg threw out the idea of changing that to Bob and I am just saying that will not be a good idea if they choose to go that route in the future. I think it will make it worse.

    Keith Pang, PhD Check out my blog @ https://keithkpang.wixsite.com/magnifyingjesus

  • William Gabriel
    William Gabriel Member Posts: 1,091 ✭✭

    Early on nearly every email from Logos was about the new version features.

    Yes, it became the tail wagging the dog almost immediately, especially for existing transactional customers... which wasn't our hope or plan, but is what happened.

    We'll keep looking at the options... though one of the points I'm making is that the pace of new features may be more irregular, or 'lumpy', which makes those in-between releases harder to sell, and has other side effects....

    I've been mulling this over the last couple of days. I don't have skin in the game right now (I did subscribe to Now when it was monthly and stopped when it switched to yearly), so I'm not emotionally invested, but I'm not sure that this aspect of Logos Now was thought all the way through. I concur with everyone on the forums that the primary draw of Now was the cutting edge updates--that's how it was advertised. I do suspect that there is a correlation among forum regulars and this benefit of Logos Now, so I'm not saying I see the whole business picture, but it probably explains the outsized weeping and gnashing of teeth in these threads.

    Logos Now was sold as a way to participate in the funding of continual development in exchange for keeping up with the cutting edge, and it was sold as a way to get updates without needing to buy the big upgrade with each release. Kevin and other users have clearly communicated this, and I agree that this is how the community saw it. This leads me to two thoughts:

    1. Saying that it was the tail wagging the dog almost immediately tells me that you did not think the business plan all the way through. You wanted the business to go this direction by introducing Now and selling it a certain way, but you apparently regretted the consequences almost immediately. You had to know it was going to be the main driver of development, and I'm sorry it didn't grow to become the dog you wanted it to be, but the workflow out of creating Logos Now would have been no different whether small or big. 

    2. When it's all set up for people to buy the subscription for the software instead of buying the package upgrades, and then taken away about one software cycle through the offer, you've got to understand that this will make people absolutely livid. It's clear now, but it should have been anticipated. You said we could keep up to date through monthly fees, allowed a big update and then took it away. That makes this whole thing come across as if it was a really hollow promise, and that's why so many people are ticked off and lose trust in the company.

    PS on these thoughts: When I reflect on my own decisions regarding Logos Now, I suspect some of the difficulty it encountered was when it switched from a monthly to a yearly commitment. Instead of everything remaining small and incremental, it became a big commitment again. A $99 yearly payment feels awfully close to buying a big package again (a "half-package"). Yes, it's the same as $8/month, but so is spending $200 when the new version of Logos comes out in 2 years. I know you had to switch to yearly so that people wouldn't pay for a month of Now, upgrade to 7 with the discount and then cancel immediately, but I have a feeling Now could have been successful with a few different decisions along the way. I think you're right to  clear up the confusion between Now and Cloud, but I feel bad for both the company and the users of Now for needing to go through this exercise. I do wish you success and hope this new direction works for you.

  • SineNomine
    SineNomine Member Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭

    Bob, thank you for your very lengthy, very clear, very level-headed post. This is excellent customer service, as is giving nine whole months of notice before making the switch. Nine months should be more than enough time for people with strong emotional reactions to calm down and get used to the idea. It also gives you more time to tinker with/improve Faithlife Connect, which is also good.

    (NB: I have not read all of the responses to your post, just the first page.)

    For my part, I think that what you are doing largely makes sense, and I myself am glad that Verbum Now is sticking around because it meets my present needs better than the present Faithlife Connect offerings do. Perhaps some of the people who want to keep 'old Logos Now' should subscribe to Verbum Now!

    “The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara

  • Matt Hudson
    Matt Hudson Member Posts: 28 ✭✭

    No. This is not like a magazine. You all said yourselves this is your "online service". It's not understood by the users to have an expiration date in the same way paper magazines do. That's not how any other online service works. At all. Anywhere.

    Think instead if Amazon Prime renamed, dropped half their services, and told every subscriber they could have it back for twice the price. Or if Netflix did the same. That's the proper analogy.

    This is shady. And giving a 9 month head-start doesn't change that.

    Adding tremendous new features to justify a new tier at a higher price or choosing a more modest price bump would have been standard practice (for companies without a moral compass).

    I am just so very, very disappointed. As someone who has been a loyal user for years, invested thousands of dollars, I did not expect so little from Logos. I have had my view of your business significantly altered through this.

    There's an answer. Walk it back. This is does hurt you. And it violates a trust we put in you.

  • EastTN
    EastTN Member Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭

    I appreciate Bob's explanation.  The one thing that disturbed me about it was the suggestion that FaithLife would prefer to be on a pure subscription model. Personally, I prefer an ownership model.  I understand Bob's point about users wanting new features.  But...that's not where I am.  While I do want the software to be maintained and kept reasonably up-to-date with evolving platforms, it already has way more features than I'm ever likely to use.

    For me personally, it really is about the books. Instead of renting access to a generalized library, I like building my own.  Right now I'm working full-time in a corporate job, and can afford to do that. It won't be too many years before I retire from that corporate job, and when I do I'd like to be able to continue using the library I'm building now.

  • SineNomine
    SineNomine Member Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭

    EastTN said:

    I appreciate Bob's explanation.  The one thing that disturbed me about it was the suggestion that FaithLife would prefer to be on a pure subscription model. Personally, I prefer an ownership model.  I understand Bob's point about users wanting new features.  But...that's not where I am.  While I do want the software to be maintained and kept reasonably up-to-date with evolving platforms, it already has way more features than I'm ever likely to use.

    For me personally, it really is about the books. Instead of renting access to a generalized library, I like building my own.  Right now I'm working full-time in a corporate job, and can afford to do that. It won't be too many years before I retire from that corporate job, and when I do I'd like to be able to continue using the library I'm building now.

    I appreciate his honesty about how, were he founding Faithlife now, he'd probably go subscription only. I'm also glad that he's keeping the buy-and-own model that customers of his like you and me prefer.

    “The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara

  • Bootjack
    Bootjack Member Posts: 752 ✭✭

    Donn Arms said:

    Am I better off upgrading now to the L7 "Starter feature set" (I do not need any more books) for my dynamic price of $50.20 and then to L8 at that time, or should I wait until L8 appears and upgrade then from L6?

    Phil recommended that it would be better to wait for L8.

    I've been lead to believe, that if one skips for example, from Logos 6 to Logos 8 (not buying Logos 7) then Logos 8 is going to cost much more. The recommendation to wait till L8 is ok but there is no specific reason given to do so other than a recommendation. 

    From what I understand, barreling out of LN and having had L6, it would be about the same cost-wise for me to presently buy Logos 7 and when Logos 8 comes down the tubes, yes, I'm going to pay but not as much as if I had remained with L6. 

    Has something changed or am I close to being right. I hope I'm near being right because I jumped the gun yesterday and bought L7. Please make my day and tell me I've made a horrific mistake!  :-/ 

    MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,193 ✭✭✭✭

    EastTN said:

    For me personally, it really is about the books. Instead of renting access to a generalized library, I like building my own.  Right now I'm working full-time in a corporate job, and can afford to do that. It won't be too many years before I retire from that corporate job, and when I do I'd like to be able to continue using the library I'm building now.

    As I watched Now's feature path at $10/mo, my impression was a yawn. I wondered how many pastors sit around counting theophanies .... if you're decently familiar with the text, an exactness I suppose is worth what? On the other hand, so many forum queries on speed, usability, maps (!), and so on. And DAL going gaga over pictures at Another Co.

    Then there's now the dog-wagging tail problem, and the solution as free movies and some books at twice the price. 

    I suspect many will take a harder look at exactly what the software improvements are good for, in their day to day spiritual life.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,193 ✭✭✭✭

    Bootjack, good question. When L7 appeared, I noticed cumulative feature catchup was more than keep-up. The reason was they popped the priced on the earlier features. Logos-inflating-tendenz.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Bootjack
    Bootjack Member Posts: 752 ✭✭

    You yawned Denise but apparently never fell asleep. But you are permitted a wee nap if you do so desire!  :-) 

    MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home

  • m wilson
    m wilson Member Posts: 30 ✭✭

    you have (understandably) become an "I don't need any more large package book purchases" customer, which means we're getting less revenue than was expected/needed to support the feature development you expect.

    Which is why it seems plain as day that FL must end up in a Subscription model for it's features. Companies like Adobe, Microsoft, Intuit and Salsforce all do it. 

    I was in the Adobe ecosytem when they made the change and the outcry was very loud, and yet look where they are now.     

    BUT, what they all offer is a subscription to tools, not content! IMHO, that is FL's biggest issue. You started off operating in reverse of the current trend: Get free tools (functionality) if you buy content (really secondary products) that work with the tools. 

    Now somehow you need to reverse that or at least rebalance it. Of course, the problem is, many of the people who bought into the first scheme and got you to this point are feeling betrayed. Not good:(

    Of course, the flip side is: how many new tools and features does anyone really need? Brother, we are just reading books! 

    Bob Pritchett said:At the root of this problem is that our component prices aren't lined up with our component costs.

    So why not just trim the fat, cut the nonsense, and take the plunge into a full tools subscription and properly convince (basically bribe) your current owners into becoming subscribers. They helped you get here, Make them feel like they are important and in two years everyone will have forgotten about it and FL will have a sustainable model with happy advocates for their product. 

    But, if you think that expanding the business requires all these "adjacent markets" then you better be right about what people want and be able to provide it. Sadly, I don't see as much evidence of that as I do FL trying to do things that they "hope" or "guess" will work. Thus, instead of offering people the tools for subscription, you are offering the tools with a lot of bloatware that no one wants to pay for.  

    Honestly, how many people interested in parsing syntax, searching lemmas or reading 700 page commentaries are tuning into Faithlife TV? And the free books? The list is quite sparse and poor. 

    I do actually think that the Ecourses are a great incentive, but sadly, the list of available choices is again not too exciting. 

    Why not just sell the books and rent the tools, straightup? Give folks a fair chance to stick with a certain tool set at the end of their subscription or pay to upgrade and all is fine. A la carte will let you know what people want and what is a waste of everyone's time and money.  

  • Rob Lambert
    Rob Lambert Member Posts: 156 ✭✭

    [quote]

    This is why I’m not upset about the new announcement.  You are crediting back what I’ve paid to try LN over the last two years and I can use the credit to now “own” the full feature set.  Not many other companies out there would do that.

    I hope Faithlife is successful in your new strategy; however, I strongly suspect that with the announced changes, your subscription revenue is going to decline rather than increase like you are hoping.  If that is the case, there will be of course new changes later down the road.  

    The cost to purchase the full feature set empowering logos 7 is $429.21.  NOT $200 or $100.   You are getting less than half of the cost to get the stuff you are losing.  

    Combine this with the FACT that the commission sales men (and one woman I never spoke with) offered Logos Now as the key to having the cool tools like lemma in passage (which have helped me get much closer to God) at the least cost;....therefore, I was able to put more of my wad toward buying the library I wanted.  I did and rented the feature set by getting Logos Now.

    NOW, I get the privilege of renting not only the books I already own (literally, almost every one at each level) but renting the feature set for 2.4 times the cost of the feature set Logos Now was providing me.  I work in a rainforest and only have internet now and then.  Faithlife TV and the cloud are useless to me.....

    In the old days I was a professor at USC business school.  We called this a "Cram Down"... .a situation where the "cramee" has no choice but to write off his investment or take the medicine.  With the investments all of us have made we can't leave .... and who would want to, no other company has anything like these great tools.

    BUT... Bob, one of the key principals we had at our secular business school was to treat your customers like gold.  I feel like a brick to you.  But, I can promise that "All things work together for good to those that love God, the called according to His purpose."  I also know that Christians reap what they sow.  

    In my mind, this is a horrible way to treat the folks who bought your stuff and deferred vacations and other stuff to have tools to serve God....and felt proud and privileged to give you their hard earned money.

    If I were a young man and didn't own a library full of books I would jump at the ability to rent what I needed and the Faithlife Connect would be just fine.

    I do wonder how you would feel Bob if you were one of your customers who strained every financial muscle in their body to buy your books and software....then got this proposal which is really and truly little more than a traditional Cram Down.

    I do remain your faithful "Cramdownee" and will stick with Logos because there is nothing even close to as good.   I know I will never trust any of your staff as their good intentions were not same intentions as the management.  I will continue to buy your books, pay for Faithlife Connect Essentials...but I won't forget that i got bitten.... and if bitten again it is my fault.  

    Also, I would gladly pay more if you just said you needed money and were raising your prices.... you didn't do that.... Instead you offer me things i don't want and can't use and then say take it or walk away.  This is not going over well with your key invested customers.

    Unfortunately, this doesn't bode well for those of us who thought our purchased libraries would have strong residual value.... 

    Rob

  • Bootjack
    Bootjack Member Posts: 752 ✭✭

    Yes sir M Wilson. That would be just super for those of us who do not want to go the Subscription route but presently have the product.  

    Personally, I want to own the product, whether it be Logos 7 or to earn Air miles, jump into Logos 8 which I'll probably do. It seems from what you're saying, the owning option would eventually be ruled out. Or am I misreading something you're attempting to say? 

    MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home

  • David Istre
    David Istre Member Posts: 1 ✭✭

    I love Logos and have invested into its software because it gives me indispensable tools.

    I just hope that Logos does not get so caught up in looking at market trends that they forget to pay attention to why their business exists in the first place, which is to give people powerful tools for studying the Bible. 

    My feeling as a Logos customer is that a subscription service will most likely price me out, or under deliver.  But, you said that you are keeping the buy-to-own service, which I am already very happy with, so I will have no problem. 

    I hope you are able to make the business work and keep it flexible :D

  • Bootjack
    Bootjack Member Posts: 752 ✭✭

    Rob, you say "The cost to purchase the full feature set empowering logos 7 is $429.21." I take it that you're referring to a present customer and not a new one, correct? Can you clarify that a bit? Is it a Logos 4, 5 or 6 user who you have in mind or something else.

    MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 54,763

    Denise said:

    I wondered how many pastors sit around counting theophanies

    Don't know about others, but as a child I was fascinated by the tables and lists in Dad's Unger's :-)

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Danny Elliott
    Danny Elliott Member Posts: 4 ✭✭

    I have looked at the comparison chart.  The Logos Now features I regularly use will not be available through Faithlife Connect Starter.  I am being forced to pay double for Essentials.  Other new features available still does not bring back the current features I now use.  $200 off Logos 8 is nice, but does not solve the issue of still having to pay double for what I now use.  You can say all you want that Faithlife will give you this or that, but the fact remains that I will still have to pay double for what I currently use.  This does seem like punishment to me.

  • SineNomine
    SineNomine Member Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭

    You can say all you want that Faithlife will give you this or that, but the fact remains that I will still have to pay double for what I currently use.  This does seem like punishment to me.

    Danny, for you it's probably worth checking out Verbum Now, which offers almost exactly the same features as Logos Now at the same price (and Verbum staff have confirmed that Verbum Now isn't going anywhere anytime soon). There's a pretty decent chance that everything you use in Logos Now is available in Verbum Now.

    “The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara

  • Bootjack
    Bootjack Member Posts: 752 ✭✭

    I wasn't fascinated as a child but appreciate Unger's now, that's not Logos now.  :-) 

    MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home