Logos Now and Faithlife Connect: The Why

Ruurd Offringa said:

I've been thinking about what other model would work for both FL and the customers, and I understand the need and desire to go towards a subscription model. I think you can successfully do this with just tweaking and reprioritising what you already have.

The problem with all this, and this goes for Logos' implementation of it too, is everything's too confusing.

KISS is key, so here's my suggestion:

• Logos Engine: Needs to be purchased each upgrade by anyone wanting to run Logos natively on a computer.
• Logos Subscription: One subscription tier that includes web access to Logos AND all Logos published content AND public domain resources.
• Logos Base Packages: Include the latest version of the Logos program and PRIMARILY resources that need royalties. No more public domain fluff. Maybe include subscription content, but maybe instead you want to give them an incentive to subscribe.
• No dynamic pricing for subscription plan. All or nothing. No one's got time for that.
• Individually purchased resources integrate with the user's library, whether subscription based or natively based, just like normal, and of course you keep them.

Subscription can be for people who only need Logos on a limited basis, or just want to get their feet wet, or something like that. The native program would be for anyone who wants to have downloaded resources on their computer. Subscribers would have to purchase it to get that functionality. Base packages would be for the professional user or highly motivated layman.

These are just quickly written ideas. I have no idea how Logos works internally and what the financials look like. But after watching things develop over the years into a more and more complex system, I think a big reset needs to happen. Income from book sales isn't cutting it, obviously, and somethings gotta give. My suggestion is to make the whole set-up similar to what works in the computer industry, to make it easy for the customer to understand and get sucked into, and to provide a consistent source of revenue so Logos can continue developing great software.

Greg Masone said:

My suggestion is to make the whole set-up similar to what works in the computer industry, to make it easy for the customer to understand and get sucked into, and to provide a consistent source of revenue so Logos can continue developing great software.

What works in the computer industry is selling support to enterprises. One of the most successful software companies is GitLab. They don't charge for their basic product, they charge for professional features and fast support. If FL is having trouble keeping the cost of the engine down, then maybe it is time to consider open-source. There is a reason that major companies have started to open their source code. I'm not saying it will be a fix all, but software engineers/coders work on opensource projects a lot. This could be a way to tap a relatively unengaged set of Christian skill. Would Christian software designers be willing to throw some extra hours at Logos? I don't know, but I would venture to say yes. As long as the features they develop remain free, then gathering the coders should not be impossible. It would require some new marketing and engagement, though. FL could still charge for anything they develop in-house, which is the same way GitLab does it. If FL bundled things for a church (enterprise) and sold seats to the church for access to various FL products, then FL could sell/bundle subscription support for the product as well. 

I'm not saying that FL needs to go opensource, but if you want to talk about what the computer industry is doing, especially cutting-edge, then you have to talk about opensource. I'm just throwing things at a wall to see what sticks.

You can still create a free engine without features without making people pay when people invest thousands of dollars. Not a good suggestion 

I'm still trying to recover from that one. There's the slight possibility I might have to see a councilor in the morning. 

So glad you’re making all the decisions for Logos 

Greg, what am I missing here? When I buy Logos 8, I'm going to pay that which represents a lot of MacDonald's coffee. :-) 

Are you saying then, amongst other things, there should be no free engine but that it should be paid for? 

Keith Pang said:

You can still create a free engine without features without making people pay when people invest thousands of dollars. Not a good suggestion 

Maybe as an incredibly barebones solution, ala Kindle software where you basically just read it and thats it. But even then pay for it. Logos isn't a billion dollar company that's only started making a profit after 20 years.

Again, this is the cost of going digital. Anytime you put extra things between the user and the content they're trying to access, you're going to run into the issue of maintaining access in an ever-progressing tech field.

Greg Masone said:

Keith Pang said:

No not pay for each upgrade that’s not something anyone will buy into 

Sure they will if they want to maintain access to their resources on new hardware and operating systems. That's the hidden cost and danger of going digital. There are more barriers to consumption that physical books don't have. We shouldn't expect Logos to pay us for the natural deficiencies of digital books.

What scares me in this post as in your previous one, is it seems to be saying, if we don't pay for the engine in the next release, our Logos 6 or Logos 7 is not going to kick into gear (work).Surely I am reading this wrong. I know I need sleep and I'm hoping I am not reading this correctly.  :-) 

 

William Gabriel said:

Rob Lambert said:

Logos is driven by hungry commission driven sales people selling to people who want nothing more than to understand the Bible and serve God.

Several years ago (ca 2010) we learned that the Logos sales structure was switched so that salesmen didn't earn commissions anymore. Unless it was quietly changed back in the intervening years, commission is not sales' primary motivation.

The sales men and woman have a wonderful godly attitude and a desire to sell their products.  I wish I could get that type of person without incentivising them based on sales.

Sorry.... 

Sean said:

FaithLife isn't going to start charging for engine updates.

Bob responded to me a few pages back and said its not off the table.

Bootjack said:

What scares me in this post as in your previous one, is it seems to be saying, if we don't pay for the engine in the next release, our Logos 6 or Logos 7 is not going to kick into gear (work).Surely I am reading this wrong. I know I need sleep and I'm hoping I am not reading this correctly.  :-) 

Sorry for not explaining better. I'm saying only those who want to upgrade their engine should have to pay for it. If you don't want a new base package and the feature set for Logos 8 doesn't interest you, then you don't have to pay anything. You keep Logos 6 or 7 for as long as you can keep it running on your computer and operating system.

Its just like how all other software works. I'm still running Adobe Acrobat Pro 9 on my brand new 2017 iMac with the latest OSX because I don't have the need to upgrade the program because it still works and does everything I need PDF software to do.

But I recently upgraded my VMware Fusion software since the version I had wouldn't work when I bought my iMac last year. As long as I stayed on my old computer with El Capitan, it worked fine. But since it was several years old, and is a complete piece of software that has to work closely with operating systems, the older version simply wasn't built to work with Apple's latest and I needed to upgrade if I wanted access to my Virtual Machines.

Thats just the cost of digital.

Joe Mayden said:

Could someone answer that question?

Joe, 

Only Logos can answer that question. But based off of previous updates, that $200 credit probably won't cover anything other than the most basic upgrade package if even that. It certainly won't cover Logos 8 Gold Reformed, at least for most users.

(But due to Dynamic Pricing, people's mileage may vary. Thats why its complicated to say otherwise. Logos 8 Gold Reformed will probably cost less for the person with 10,000 resources than it does for the one with 4,000. On the other hand, Logos builds into their base packages the cost of development of Logos 8 and the new feature sets, so it'd still cost someone money even if they already had all the resources offered.)

If Logos gave you $200 credit for using Logos Now, then that probably means they're giving you credit towards the new features Logos 8 will have, and just those things, since with Now you've basically already paid for them.

Greg Masone said:

Thats just the cost of digital.

No, it isn't. There are other companies besides VMWare and Adobe. There are successful companies that provide free products: GitLab, Nextcloud, Owncloud, RedHat (provides Fedora), Cannonical (provides Ubuntu), FreeNAS, Valve (provides Steam), and numerous browsers. Yes, historically you buy each version, but it is not the only successful market as I hope you see.

Matthew Cillo said:

Greg Masone said:

Thats just the cost of digital.

No, it isn't. There are other companies besides VMWare and Adobe. There are successful companies that provide free products: GitLab, Nextcloud, Owncloud, RedHat (provides Fedora), Cannonical (provides Ubuntu), FreeNAS, Valve (provides Steam), and numerous browsers. Yes, historically you buy each version, but it is not the only successful market as I hope you see.

Those were just my examples since they're the best known. And I'm not saying other companies aren't doing what Logos has been doing. I mean, Logos' has been successful for the past 25 years. This isn't a testament against Logos or the business model, but more on the subject that the market is changing. And not just the market, but Logos' specific market. The books just aren't paying the bills.

And if subscription models don't work (1.5% income generation isn't helpful, and based off of this thread, that number might not change much with the new collection of subscriptions), then other sources of revenue need to be explored.

Chris duMond said:

Hi Beloved, I'm sorry you were given incorrect information. Verbum Now is not being transitioned into Faithlife Connect, nor do we have any current plans of doing that. I've asked our Customer Service Manager to reach out to you and help you get into Verbum Now, and to inform the rest of the Customer Service team that Verbum Now is an option for customers. Thanks.

If Verbum Now can remain, why can't Logos Now? I guess I'm in the minority among subscribers, but I really liked all the preview books that came with Logos Now--sometimes I went on month-long reading binges. I don't think they're the same in Verbum, are they? If they're not, then it's not nearly as valuable for me as LN was. If they are the same--then again, why can't Logos Now continue? Why the silliness of having to switch over?

This is infuriating. It's almost like you're purposely aiming for a "lose-lose" situation for everyone.

Well, it’s all good we shall see what happens. I hope everything I said was not taken in a negative way. I’m sorry if it did. 

Greg Masone said:

Implicit in this idea is the notion that current book revenue is declining, either due to competition or changing buyer habits (or both).

Your observations are quite astute and important reminders of the diminishing returns that makes growing a business like this very difficult. That's why I  don't think the business model is sustainable in the long run and why we are all actually leasing anyway. But I'm okay with that, as I don't expect to need many of these resources twenty years from now.  

Thanks for the explanation. I was happy to receive an email yesterday with a generous coupon code that can be used for either Faithlife Connect or Logos 8 when it is released. 

Unless I'm wrong, as a customer of Logos since version 4 who has spent more money than I care to admit ( :-) ), I will be able to continue using my desktop software as always. I can use my apps (even the online app). I can choose whether to upgrade to Logos 8 or not. I can choose to continue my Faithlife Connect subscription when my annual subscription (rolled over from Logos Now) ends in November. You are not taking away my books. You are not taking away datasets and features that I own. You are giving me a coupon to purchase more datasets or upgrades or subscriptions. Nothing that I have purchased is going away. And I choose whether to jump into the new product or not.

All I can say is, I find value in the Logos product. I will continue to choose to pay for things in which I find value, understanding that valuable things cost money to produce and the company producing them has to earn a profit in order to stay in business - even a Christian company.

Thanks for interacting here and answering questions. That's classy.

I like the idea of rental libraries that are like for like the base packages and would think it a good idea for someone else...

For the likes of me... surely all that is missing from this proposition is dynamic pricing...

Can't you just make our licenses unlock a rental price which puts us on the linked level at only $9.99 a month or $99 a year?

Bob,

I really appreciate the time that you have taken to outline FL's position and to dialog with the customer base.

As someone who subscribed to LN and must say that I am disappointed with the move to FLC. I have read through (at the time of writing) all 13 pages on this thread and I think I have to agree that the communication of this move could have been much better and also that you may have misunderstood why many of us actually subscribed to LN.

I am a pastor with a little activity in academics. As such, I am not really interested in all the ancillary programs that FL has developed. FLTV has very little interest to me, and I am fairly competent with Power Point and have no interest in Proclaim (I have actually tested it out).

Consequently, I would echo what many others have said that I am strictly interested in Bible study and research around theology and biblical studies. Because biblical studies and theology is always progressing, I will always have an interest in more books. Therefore, I wish that FL would focus on the Bible software end of things.

If I understood your points, the concern on your end is maintaining something viable as a company, and I know that you have to make your own decisions as to what that means. And maybe those of us on this thread (and the other threads discussing this move) really only represent a small percentage of your actual customer base. However, I just want to chime in that I am concerned about the direction things are heading.

I am going to try out the new FL Essentials until my LN expires and then make a final decision, but at the moment I am pretty sure that I will be deciding not to continue with it. The cost is too steep for my interests. I do appreciate the coupon and also the nine months to make a decision.

Every blessing for the future.

What is this coupon? Are only some of use getting it or is there some specific criteria? I own Logos 7 Baptist with the full Logos feature set and currenfly have a Logos Now subscription as well. I looked but no email wet coupons rollovera etc. Are there specific criteria for that?

Keith Pang said:

Don‘t use Greg’s suggestion of making people pay for the new engines that’s not smart. You will lose pretty much a huge part of your customers. Instead how about just giving the new engine with no features so it runs but people will pay for features

We already are and I am ok with it.. core engine is free but all the feature sets you are paying for very few if any feature sets are free... I am ok with that.. I am happy to spend $49 every 2 years for the latest version of Accordance. Logos has a free core engine several months after release but it is not free for the first while.... As far as I am concerned the base engine being free has felt for years like smoke and mirrors. Getting rid of the pretence of a free engine would not bother me.

-dan

I was surprised to see the email from FaithLife regarding the change in LN. However, I am a customer. Bob runs the company. As the CEO, he, and others, make decisions they believe are in the best interest of the company and the many employees.

As a Customer, I will make decisions that fit with my budget, values, needs, etc. At this point, I'm not sure what I will do when my LN subscription runs out. I've used Logos for at least 15 years. I will continue to use it. 

My church has a faithlifeTV subscription (at $950+ a year). I'm still trying to discern if our congregation uses it enough to justify purchasing it. I use it for the Mobile Ed courses and find it is a cost-effective way to keep up my education. Come next year, the church may not subscribe to FaithLifeTV, especially if I'm able to get the same features from FaithLife Connect.

I'm giving the FaithLifeTV a bit more time, but my fear is I might be the only one using it.

My church also subscribes to Proclaim, which we love. Some of us use the social site FaithLife as well.

I have been confused over the past few years with the name, name changes, and products names of FaithLife. My sense is Faithlife is trying to merge things in a way that will, at some point, make sense.

Right now, if you go to Faithlife.com you don't go to the company website (which would make sense), instead you go to a social media site.

If you go logos.com you go to the company website..but wait...no that's the Bible Software's website. From there, I can shop by tradition...such as Catholic...oh wait...that says the Catholic version of Logos is Verbum. If you go to faithlife.com/about you seem to be at the company website.

I'm sure there are reasons why things are setup the way they are. I, however, am looking forward to the day when it all makes sense. 

Transitions are difficult. Computing has changed. Subscription models are becoming more popular. Companies must adapt or die. I assume FaithLife is no different.

I do most of my work on a Chromebook and need the web app, so that may end up being my determining factor. 

I agree that FaithLifeTV lacks...a lot. As far as I know, if I want all the mobile ed courses, I have to take the FaithLifeTV as well. Not sure I've watched any of the programs on FaithLifeTV other than Mobile Ed.

In the end, it is up to me as the customer to determine what is best for my situation. While I have enjoyed Logos, LN, Proclaim, etc., in the end FaithLife will determine what they need to charge. I would never think about walking up to a Target employee (or the CEO) and complain that they raised the price of my favorite (fill in the blank). Companies are constantly raising prices for the same, and at times, less services. DishTV, Comcast, etc., etc. 

I appreciate what FaithLife has done. They've given us a 9 month warning. Given us more than what they promised for LN, and have even offered a coupon.

I think most other companies would have put out an email that said, "We regret that we will no longer be offering product X. We will honor your subscription, but once it is up, here are your new options."

I received a similar email from CrashPlan (my online backup), telling me I would have to move to the business plan. They were discontinuing the plan I had been for the past few years. If you want to see how they did things here you go: https://www.crashplan.com/en-us/consumer/nextsteps/

No coupon. Just saying, upgrade to our (much) more business plan, or move to another service. I moved. At this point, I doubt I will move from FaithLife. 

I am a bit hesitant to post this since, from what I read, it seems to be a different tone from what I've read (I have not read all 14 pages...just don't have the time). I decided to post anyway, if only to provide a different perspective.

Peace - David.

David Mullens said:

I would never think about walking up to a Target employee (or the CEO) and complain that they raised the price of my favorite (fill in the blank). Companies are constantly raising prices for the same, and at times, less services. DishTV, Comcast, etc., etc.

I feel peaceful reading Ur heartfelt message.

But, I'm not U, so I take it to the man in a stronger fashion because I think he needs to hear the sitrep in a firmer way.  Otherwise, he may think he can bob [!] + weave some + we are all OK with it.

Definitely, I would tell the Target CEO if I thought there was a serious ongoing problem.  But, I'd never find him; Bob had the courage to show on the forums [although a day late].