Logos Now and Faithlife Connect: The Why

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  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭

    I've been thinking about what other model would work for both FL and the customers, and I understand the need and desire to go towards a subscription model. I think you can successfully do this with just tweaking and reprioritising what you already have.

    The problem with all this, and this goes for Logos' implementation of it too, is everything's too confusing.

    KISS is key, so here's my suggestion:

    • Logos Engine: Needs to be purchased each upgrade by anyone wanting to run Logos natively on a computer.
    • Logos Subscription: One subscription tier that includes web access to Logos AND all Logos published content AND public domain resources.
    • Logos Base Packages: Include the latest version of the Logos program and PRIMARILY resources that need royalties. No more public domain fluff. Maybe include subscription content, but maybe instead you want to give them an incentive to subscribe.
    • No dynamic pricing for subscription plan. All or nothing. No one's got time for that.
    • Individually purchased resources integrate with the user's library, whether subscription based or natively based, just like normal, and of course you keep them.

    Subscription can be for people who only need Logos on a limited basis, or just want to get their feet wet, or something like that. The native program would be for anyone who wants to have downloaded resources on their computer. Subscribers would have to purchase it to get that functionality. Base packages would be for the professional user or highly motivated layman.

    These are just quickly written ideas. I have no idea how Logos works internally and what the financials look like. But after watching things develop over the years into a more and more complex system, I think a big reset needs to happen. Income from book sales isn't cutting it, obviously, and somethings gotta give. My suggestion is to make the whole set-up similar to what works in the computer industry, to make it easy for the customer to understand and get sucked into, and to provide a consistent source of revenue so Logos can continue developing great software.

  • Bootjack
    Bootjack Member Posts: 752 ✭✭

    Logos engine needs to purchased with each upgrade??? And I thought I was going to have a nice quiet seizure before. Unless I am misunderstanding this, maybe someone should delete this right off the forum. The rest needs not any comment. 

    MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home

  • Sojourner
    Sojourner Member Posts: 20 ✭✭

    My suggestion is to make the whole set-up similar to what works in the computer industry, to make it easy for the customer to understand and get sucked into, and to provide a consistent source of revenue so Logos can continue developing great software.

    What works in the computer industry is selling support to enterprises. One of the most successful software companies is GitLab. They don't charge for their basic product, they charge for professional features and fast support. If FL is having trouble keeping the cost of the engine down, then maybe it is time to consider open-source. There is a reason that major companies have started to open their source code. I'm not saying it will be a fix all, but software engineers/coders work on opensource projects a lot. This could be a way to tap a relatively unengaged set of Christian skill. Would Christian software designers be willing to throw some extra hours at Logos? I don't know, but I would venture to say yes. As long as the features they develop remain free, then gathering the coders should not be impossible. It would require some new marketing and engagement, though. FL could still charge for anything they develop in-house, which is the same way GitLab does it. If FL bundled things for a church (enterprise) and sold seats to the church for access to various FL products, then FL could sell/bundle subscription support for the product as well. 

    I'm not saying that FL needs to go opensource, but if you want to talk about what the computer industry is doing, especially cutting-edge, then you have to talk about opensource. I'm just throwing things at a wall to see what sticks.

  • Keith Pang
    Keith Pang Member Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭

    No not pay for each upgrade that’s not something anyone will buy into 

    Keith Pang, PhD Check out my blog @ https://keithkpang.wixsite.com/magnifyingjesus

  • Keith Pang
    Keith Pang Member Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭

    You can still create a free engine without features without making people pay when people invest thousands of dollars. Not a good suggestion 

    Keith Pang, PhD Check out my blog @ https://keithkpang.wixsite.com/magnifyingjesus

  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭

    Bootjack said:

    Logos engine needs to purchased with each upgrade??? And I thought I was going to have a nice quiet seizure before. Unless I am misunderstanding this, maybe someone should delete this right off the forum. The rest needs not any comment.

    Hi Boot,

    No, you heard me right. Just like almost every other piece of software out there, every major release needs to be purchased. I'm thinking point releases, like Logos 8 or Logos 9. Obviously if you buy a base package or upgrade, the Logos program is included with the price. But for those who don't need more books, but want to take advantage of new features and keep access to their books current on the latest operating systems and hardware, purchase the program. You purchase new hardware, right? Purchase new software too.

    This isn't an odd idea. The software industry has been operating successfully like this for decades.

    Logos cannot be compared to Adobe or Microsoft because of fundamental differences. Logos puts out both the tool and the resource, while those companies only put out the tools. Their subscription model is for the tools, not the resources. Making a subscription model based on the tool AND the resource only leads to massively huge subscription prices that nobody wants to pay.

    Nix that idea and just sell the software like everyone else. Put all the non-royalty based resources on a flat-rate subscription plan thats limited to web access, and sell base packages and upgrades like normal for those who want Logos natively on their system long term. Keep the mobile programs free with a limited number of entry-level resources for entry-level people, but then just tie in a person's subscription and/or base packages into it. Subsidize it's development with some subscription revenue and desktop program revenue.

    As I said earlier, in the digital age, where there are multiple mediums between the user and the content, its expected that the user will have to invest in new hardware and software to continue to have access to the content. With physical books you don't have that problem, which is why physical books are awesome. But you do with digital books, and we justify that by saying the benefits of digital outweigh these small constraints.

    Logos is a digital book company. Its fully invested in digital books. While trying to embrace the benefits of digital books and the perpetual access of physical books has worked in the past when the industry was new and growing, its not working anymore when the industry is more established.

    Embrace digital or go home. Accept that the medium between the user and content need funds to be maintained.

  • Bootjack
    Bootjack Member Posts: 752 ✭✭

    I'm still trying to recover from that one. There's the slight possibility I might have to see a councilor in the morning. 

    MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home

  • Beloved Amodeo
    Beloved Amodeo Member Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭

    I finally got my email. After visiting my Subscription page, I called Customer Service to change my renewal from FLC to Verbum Now. The representative informed me that Verbum Now will be transitioned to FLC so he could not honor my request, but I was welcome to cancel the renwal of FLC. This contradicts the statements posted in this thread. 

    https://community.logos.com/forums/p/160523/957990.aspx#957990 

    Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

    International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

    MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.3 1TB SSD

  • Keith Pang
    Keith Pang Member Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭

    So glad you’re making all the decisions for Logos 

    Keith Pang, PhD Check out my blog @ https://keithkpang.wixsite.com/magnifyingjesus

  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭

    No not pay for each upgrade that’s not something anyone will buy into 

    Sure they will if they want to maintain access to their resources on new hardware and operating systems.

    That's the hidden cost and danger of going digital. There are more barriers to consumption that physical books don't have.

    We shouldn't expect Logos to pay us for the natural deficiencies of digital books.
  • Bootjack
    Bootjack Member Posts: 752 ✭✭

    Greg, what am I missing here? When I buy Logos 8, I'm going to pay that which represents a lot of MacDonald's coffee. :-) 

    Are you saying then, amongst other things, there should be no free engine but that it should be paid for? 

    MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home

  • Sean
    Sean Member Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭

    So glad you’re making all the decisions for Logos 

    All these speculative suggestions are just needless distractions that aren't going to have any influence on FL. With changes like this one has to accept realities:

    • FaithLife isn't going to start charging for engine updates.
    • Though they might do other things to pacify us, they're not going to rollback Connect for Now or significantly reduce Connect's price.
    • Verbum Now isn't going to work as an escape hatch.

    The most important thing customers can do is decide as individuals how they're going to modify their purchasing behavior and strategies. We might be able to rock the boat a bit, but we're not going to steer it.

  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭

    You can still create a free engine without features without making people pay when people invest thousands of dollars. Not a good suggestion 

    Maybe as an incredibly barebones solution, ala Kindle software where you basically just read it and thats it. But even then pay for it. Logos isn't a billion dollar company that's only started making a profit after 20 years.

    Again, this is the cost of going digital. Anytime you put extra things between the user and the content they're trying to access, you're going to run into the issue of maintaining access in an ever-progressing tech field.

  • Joe Mayden
    Joe Mayden Member Posts: 320 ✭✭

    here is my question.  I doubt I will buy any more books.  I am a Now Subscriber and have been migrated.  I am told that when my current contract for Now expires, I will be charged $200 for the NEW DEAL - much of what I don't currently use or want, videos, courses, graphics.  They will give me a $200 credit for Logos 8.  

    How much will the Logos 8 cost me?  Someone who has been a user since 1994 and has all the books he will ever need, over 4,000 volumes?  Will my Logos 8 Gold Reformed or whatever you call it cost me more than the $200 credit?

    Could someone answer that question?

    Thanks, 

  • Bootjack
    Bootjack Member Posts: 752 ✭✭

    No not pay for each upgrade that’s not something anyone will buy into 

    Sure they will if they want to maintain access to their resources on new hardware and operating systems. That's the hidden cost and danger of going digital. There are more barriers to consumption that physical books don't have. We shouldn't expect Logos to pay us for the natural deficiencies of digital books.

    What scares me in this post as in your previous one, is it seems to be saying, if we don't pay for the engine in the next release, our Logos 6 or Logos 7 is not going to kick into gear (work).Surely I am reading this wrong. I know I need sleep and I'm hoping I am not reading this correctly.  :-) 

    MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home

  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭

    So glad you’re making all the decisions for Logos 

    I'm not, but as a long-time customer with $23K invested in Logos, I'm telling them what I would be interested in supporting.

  • Rob Lambert
    Rob Lambert Member Posts: 156 ✭✭

     

    Logos is driven by hungry commission driven sales people selling to people who want nothing more than to understand the Bible and serve God.

    Several years ago (ca 2010) we learned that the Logos sales structure was switched so that salesmen didn't earn commissions anymore. Unless it was quietly changed back in the intervening years, commission is not sales' primary motivation.

    The sales men and woman have a wonderful godly attitude and a desire to sell their products.  I wish I could get that type of person without incentivising them based on sales.

    Sorry.... 

  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭

    Bootjack said:

    Are you saying then, amongst other things, there should be no free engine but that it should be paid for? 

    Yep.

    Either that or give us free software inundated with advertisements. [:|]

    So with that said, if book revenue isn't paying the bills any more, and subscription services have failed in the past (and will probably do the same for the future), what other solutions are there?

  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭

    Sean said:

    FaithLife isn't going to start charging for engine updates.

    Bob responded to me a few pages back and said its not off the table.

  • Bootjack
    Bootjack Member Posts: 752 ✭✭

    here is my question.  I doubt I will buy any more books.  I am a Now Subscriber and have been migrated.  I am told that when my current contract for Now expires, I will be charged $200 for the NEW DEAL - much of what I don't currently use or want, videos, courses, graphics.  They will give me a $200 credit for Logos 8.  

    How much will the Logos 8 cost me?  Someone who has been a user since 1994 and has all the books he will ever need, over 4,000 volumes?  Will my Logos 8 Gold Reformed or whatever you call it cost me more than the $200 credit?

    Could someone answer that question?

    Thanks, 

    I'm going to join the chorus as to your question and try to put it to music ... which is "I don't know because I've been asking that question and can't get a solid reply." The music would be the same used on the X-Files. 

    MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home

  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭

    Bootjack said:

    What scares me in this post as in your previous one, is it seems to be saying, if we don't pay for the engine in the next release, our Logos 6 or Logos 7 is not going to kick into gear (work).Surely I am reading this wrong. I know I need sleep and I'm hoping I am not reading this correctly.  :-) 

    Sorry for not explaining better. I'm saying only those who want to upgrade their engine should have to pay for it. If you don't want a new base package and the feature set for Logos 8 doesn't interest you, then you don't have to pay anything. You keep Logos 6 or 7 for as long as you can keep it running on your computer and operating system.

    Its just like how all other software works. I'm still running Adobe Acrobat Pro 9 on my brand new 2017 iMac with the latest OSX because I don't have the need to upgrade the program because it still works and does everything I need PDF software to do.

    But I recently upgraded my VMware Fusion software since the version I had wouldn't work when I bought my iMac last year. As long as I stayed on my old computer with El Capitan, it worked fine. But since it was several years old, and is a complete piece of software that has to work closely with operating systems, the older version simply wasn't built to work with Apple's latest and I needed to upgrade if I wanted access to my Virtual Machines.

    Thats just the cost of digital.

  • Bootjack
    Bootjack Member Posts: 752 ✭✭

    You'll notice I scurffed my question to you, Greg. Just before I got your reply, I posted it.Then I realized you beat me to the draw and answered it. 

    Anyway, now you've just given me reason to lay my head on the pillow with ease and not fearing of having a stroke. I see what you're saying now. Thanks for the clarification.

    MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home

  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭

    Could someone answer that question?

    Joe, 

    Only Logos can answer that question. But based off of previous updates, that $200 credit probably won't cover anything other than the most basic upgrade package if even that. It certainly won't cover Logos 8 Gold Reformed, at least for most users.

    (But due to Dynamic Pricing, people's mileage may vary. Thats why its complicated to say otherwise. Logos 8 Gold Reformed will probably cost less for the person with 10,000 resources than it does for the one with 4,000. On the other hand, Logos builds into their base packages the cost of development of Logos 8 and the new feature sets, so it'd still cost someone money even if they already had all the resources offered.)

    If Logos gave you $200 credit for using Logos Now, then that probably means they're giving you credit towards the new features Logos 8 will have, and just those things, since with Now you've basically already paid for them.

  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭
    Bootjack said:

    You'll notice I scurffed my question to you, Greg. Just before I got your reply, I posted it.Then I realized you beat me to the draw and answered it. 

    Anyway, now you've just given me reason to lay my head on the pillow with ease and not fearing of having a stroke. I see what you're saying now. Thanks for the clarification.

    I saw that. No problem at all!

    I'm glad I clarified things for you. Have a good rest, and take comfort in knowing I don't run Logos!
  • Sojourner
    Sojourner Member Posts: 20 ✭✭

    Thats just the cost of digital.

    No, it isn't. There are other companies besides VMWare and Adobe. There are successful companies that provide free products: GitLab, Nextcloud, Owncloud, RedHat (provides Fedora), Cannonical (provides Ubuntu), FreeNAS, Valve (provides Steam), and numerous browsers. Yes, historically you buy each version, but it is not the only successful market as I hope you see.

  • Sean
    Sean Member Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭

    Sean said:

    FaithLife isn't going to start charging for engine updates.

    Bob responded to me a few pages back and said its not off the table.

    Sorry, I missed that. That'd be a big change but not any worse than this one has been.

  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭

    Thats just the cost of digital.

    No, it isn't. There are other companies besides VMWare and Adobe. There are successful companies that provide free products: GitLab, Nextcloud, Owncloud, RedHat (provides Fedora), Cannonical (provides Ubuntu), FreeNAS, Valve (provides Steam), and numerous browsers. Yes, historically you buy each version, but it is not the only successful market as I hope you see.

    Those were just my examples since they're the best known. And I'm not saying other companies aren't doing what Logos has been doing. I mean, Logos' has been successful for the past 25 years. This isn't a testament against Logos or the business model, but more on the subject that the market is changing. And not just the market, but Logos' specific market. The books just aren't paying the bills.

    And if subscription models don't work (1.5% income generation isn't helpful, and based off of this thread, that number might not change much with the new collection of subscriptions), then other sources of revenue need to be explored.
  • Sojourner
    Sojourner Member Posts: 20 ✭✭

    The books just aren't paying the bills. And if subscription models don't work (1.5% income generation isn't helpful, and based off of this thread, that number might not change much with the new collection of subscriptions), then other sources of revenue need to be explored.

    Which was the point of my previous comment concerning opensource development and charging for enterprise support. These are ways of gaining money and lowering support costs. Creating a subscription model that encourages buying into content, rather than penalizing is another. BTW, I like the concept behind this new subscription model, even if I disagree with some of the content choices. It is easy to pitch to friends and family.

    Instead, I would encourage FL to develop large scale solutions for churches and schools (not just seminaries, the note taking capabilities of Logos are awesome.) Then they can charge seat licenses and support. 

  • Chris duMond (Faithlife)
    Chris duMond (Faithlife) Member, Logos Employee Posts: 152

    Beloved said:

    The representative informed me that Verbum Now will be transitioned to FLC

    Hi Beloved, I'm sorry you were given incorrect information. Verbum Now is not being transitioned into Faithlife Connect, nor do we have any current plans of doing that. I've asked our Customer Service Manager to reach out to you and help you get into Verbum Now, and to inform the rest of the Customer Service team that Verbum Now is an option for customers. Thanks.

  • m wilson
    m wilson Member Posts: 30 ✭✭

    He does not use Logos and said that his scholar do not use because it cannot do the kind advanced search functions that they need.

    Exactly, there are other systems that do a far better/faster job and are far greater value if you want to just work deeply with Original languages/Scripture. What Logos excels at, and the reason I'm in it, is for the vast, well tagged and integrated, content library. That is their niche. 

       

  • Sean
    Sean Member Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭

    Hi Beloved, I'm sorry you were given incorrect information. Verbum Now is not being transitioned into Faithlife Connect, nor do we have any current plans of doing that. I've asked our Customer Service Manager to reach out to you and help you get into Verbum Now, and to inform the rest of the Customer Service team that Verbum Now is an option for customers. Thanks.

    If Verbum Now can remain, why can't Logos Now? I guess I'm in the minority among subscribers, but I really liked all the preview books that came with Logos Now--sometimes I went on month-long reading binges. I don't think they're the same in Verbum, are they? If they're not, then it's not nearly as valuable for me as LN was. If they are the same--then again, why can't Logos Now continue? Why the silliness of having to switch over?

    This is infuriating. It's almost like you're purposely aiming for a "lose-lose" situation for everyone.

  • m wilson
    m wilson Member Posts: 30 ✭✭

    The books just aren't paying the bills.

    But from what Bob said, they have been and still are paying the bills. What is changing is that the FL wants more income to grow. That is different. That is why I agree with your assessment that they should just provide a free engine and then charge for additional features.

    Part of the problem seems to be that FL has spoiled a lot of us with free stuff and a LN price that was too low. Read the threads and I think you'll see that throwing people enough bones will pacify them and help them make the transition to the sub. model that must ultimately come.   

  • Keith Pang
    Keith Pang Member Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭

    Well, it’s all good we shall see what happens. I hope everything I said was not taken in a negative way. I’m sorry if it did. 

    Keith Pang, PhD Check out my blog @ https://keithkpang.wixsite.com/magnifyingjesus

  • Greg
    Greg Member Posts: 557 ✭✭

    m wilson said:

    But from what Bob said, they have been and still are paying the bills. What is changing is that the FL wants more income to grow.

    HIs first reply on the second page seems to suggest Logos Now was an effort to grow revenue to continue to cover the costs of development for a user-base expecting continued development while purchasing less books. Implicit in this idea is the notion that current book revenue is declining, either due to competition or changing buyer habits (or both).

    For Logos, aside from getting new customers, the challenge is getting people who supported the company when the industry was still new to support it now that its matured. Take a look at the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=mEHvs_PGbqs

    When was the last time we saw such excitement on release day? Nearly ten years later I still remember the excitement I felt seeing that commentary released on Logos. And that wasn't the only one. Every day I'd go to the Pre-pub page to see what Logos was going to offer next. I remember with excitement seeing Zondervan come on board, finally, and add their books to Logos.

    It was exciting because it was new and pioneering work in the digital bible industry. Low hanging fruit was readily available and ripe for the picking because a huge base wanted and needed these things. But then those things were made and we all bought them and then eventually 2nd and 3rd tier resources came down the pipeline, and at least for me, caused me to lose interest in buying more and more.

    And like a nation with more retirees than wage-earners, more and more resources had to be diverted to keep the established base happy while they paid less and less into the coffers and the market changed.

    But we'll see what happens. I do hope Logos is able to be successful in generating new income, and given their resiliency so far, I think that will happen. 

  • m wilson
    m wilson Member Posts: 30 ✭✭

    Implicit in this idea is the notion that current book revenue is declining, either due to competition or changing buyer habits (or both).

    Your observations are quite astute and important reminders of the diminishing returns that makes growing a business like this very difficult. That's why I  don't think the business model is sustainable in the long run and why we are all actually leasing anyway. But I'm okay with that, as I don't expect to need many of these resources twenty years from now.  

  • Bruce Dunning
    Bruce Dunning MVP Posts: 11,148

    How much will the Logos 8 cost me?  Someone who has been a user since 1994 and has all the books he will ever need, over 4,000 volumes?  Will my Logos 8 Gold Reformed or whatever you call it cost me more than the $200 credit?

    Could someone answer that question?

    I see that no one has responded to your question yet. Of course we don't know what the cost for Logos 8 Gold will be in the end and that will vary because of dynamic pricing which is based on what books you already own. But let's look at what the prices were when they were introduced when Logos 7 was first launched and that might give you a good idea.

    The regular price for Logos 7 Gold was $1,549.99. But since you owned Logos 6 Gold and would take advantage of the 20% off sale they ran at the beginning and thus your Dynamic Price drops to just $490.52.

    Of course there are other factors like the cost of feature sets but what I have written should give you a basic idea of what things might be like for Logos 8.

    I hope that helps.

    Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

  • Chris Malone
    Chris Malone Member Posts: 13 ✭✭

    Thanks for the explanation. I was happy to receive an email yesterday with a generous coupon code that can be used for either Faithlife Connect or Logos 8 when it is released. 

    Unless I'm wrong, as a customer of Logos since version 4 who has spent more money than I care to admit ( :-) ), I will be able to continue using my desktop software as always. I can use my apps (even the online app). I can choose whether to upgrade to Logos 8 or not. I can choose to continue my Faithlife Connect subscription when my annual subscription (rolled over from Logos Now) ends in November. You are not taking away my books. You are not taking away datasets and features that I own. You are giving me a coupon to purchase more datasets or upgrades or subscriptions. Nothing that I have purchased is going away. And I choose whether to jump into the new product or not.

    All I can say is, I find value in the Logos product. I will continue to choose to pay for things in which I find value, understanding that valuable things cost money to produce and the company producing them has to earn a profit in order to stay in business - even a Christian company.

    Thanks for interacting here and answering questions. That's classy.

  • Robert Peters
    Robert Peters Member Posts: 698 ✭✭

    Bob, I have a question concerning connect, since this is a subscription model is there a limit to the number of users who can use one subscription?  

  • John Goodman
    John Goodman Member Posts: 1,738 ✭✭✭

    I like the idea of rental libraries that are like for like the base packages and would think it a good idea for someone else...

    For the likes of me... surely all that is missing from this proposition is dynamic pricing...

    Can't you just make our licenses unlock a rental price which puts us on the linked level at only $9.99 a month or $99 a year?

    גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

  • Ross Strader
    Ross Strader Member Posts: 155 ✭✭

    We need a true 'no purchase necessary, pure subscription' product. That's Faithlife Connect, and it's a great value that offers Logos Bible Software via the web (and mobile, and even download if you want), as well as Faithlife TV, Courses, and more.

    Bob, what 'industry' is this now? It seems a confusion. Bible Software is what you are good at. Do Bible Software. FL-TV -- Not only do I not want it or care about it... have you seen it? What in the heck is the software company leading the industry in Bible Software doing trying to enter the market of Amazon, Netflix, Hulu.... with a "Christian alternative"...

    Logos - do what your good at. You are Very Good at Bible Software!

    You are not good at TV - you won't be - you don't have enough money to be good at that.

    You are not good at Presentation software - Proclaim is a mess - a terrible mess. I'll say it if nobody else will.

    Your Mobile ED is fine... there are lots of free/less expensive options out there that are EQUALLY as good in scholarship and content - Bill Mounce is doing it... he is not the only one. Sure, your production level is higher quality - but not worth the money you charge for it.

    I fear you are abandoning the industry you created... where is the Faithlife Podcast? Turns out... podcast is something people actually listen to... You social media presence is not creative - it is sales... boring and irrelevant.

    Your Forum Page looks like a flea market with the 29 categories nobody cares about... seriously - nobody cares.

    Your Beta program has become nothing but incremental bug fixes for the past 6months... For what? To work on Faithlife TV... please tell us you will abandon this. -- No one cares.

    And here is the deal - if you do get good at TV... then the Bible Study Software is what will pay the price ... to the degree you succeed at TV - I predict the quality, innovation and excellence of the Bible Study Software will suffer.

    How about this... SELL Your Bible Study Software to another company - if you need some cash to fund this other stuff... just sell it - let someone who cares about Bible Study Software buy it from you and then you can go compete with Amazon and Netflix and Online Universities and Microsoft Powerpoint... every other industry you are trying to dabble in.

    This feels like trying to raise money for the other endeavors you are hoping will grow this business... but on the backs of people that came to you in the first place for what you do well - better than anyone.

    I'm not interested in funding these other endeavors. I don't care about them.

    I don't know... maybe Logos 8 is the key that unlocks all of this confusion - and it is the greatest leap forward in Bible Software since... well, you did it the last time about 10yrs ago... However, I fear it is one more iteration of dilution of why people buy and use Logos in the first place. I guess a little time will tell.

    BTW - I love Logos Bible Software. I've used it for almost 20yrs now and it has been a place I've invested much of my extra money over the years. But, personally - I'm not interested in buying any of the other products you are selling... there are other and better options for those.

    MacBook Pro 15' Retina  •  2.7 GHz Intel Core i7  •  16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3  •  Version 10.10

  • Jordan Litchfield
    Jordan Litchfield Member Posts: 539 ✭✭

    Bob,

    I really appreciate the time that you have taken to outline FL's position and to dialog with the customer base.

    As someone who subscribed to LN and must say that I am disappointed with the move to FLC. I have read through (at the time of writing) all 13 pages on this thread and I think I have to agree that the communication of this move could have been much better and also that you may have misunderstood why many of us actually subscribed to LN.

    I am a pastor with a little activity in academics. As such, I am not really interested in all the ancillary programs that FL has developed. FLTV has very little interest to me, and I am fairly competent with Power Point and have no interest in Proclaim (I have actually tested it out).

    Consequently, I would echo what many others have said that I am strictly interested in Bible study and research around theology and biblical studies. Because biblical studies and theology is always progressing, I will always have an interest in more books. Therefore, I wish that FL would focus on the Bible software end of things.

    If I understood your points, the concern on your end is maintaining something viable as a company, and I know that you have to make your own decisions as to what that means. And maybe those of us on this thread (and the other threads discussing this move) really only represent a small percentage of your actual customer base. However, I just want to chime in that I am concerned about the direction things are heading.

    I am going to try out the new FL Essentials until my LN expires and then make a final decision, but at the moment I am pretty sure that I will be deciding not to continue with it. The cost is too steep for my interests. I do appreciate the coupon and also the nine months to make a decision.

    Every blessing for the future.

  • Dan Francis
    Dan Francis Member Posts: 5,341 ✭✭✭

    One trend I've seen in my part of the U.S. (and others have reported elsewhere) is a drop in regular church attendance.  Those who do attend, in my experience, seem less interested in serious Bible study.  To be honest, I'm alarmed that people show little interest in becoming more biblically literate.  I cannot help but wonder how this affects Bible software companies, especially Logos/FL, which caters to the pretty serious student of Scripture.

    Exactly but Bob's expansion of TV and presentation points to going after a dying market.... He has wisely started to go after general humanity students but I am not sure how well Noet is going, indeed in the ebooks not site I have at times had issues where a book I want is not available in Canada... which is a sad but true thing.. FL has less to offer me in way of books because many books I want are either not offered or sitting in prePub limbo with little to no chance of ever getting out of there. 

    -dan

  • What is this coupon? Are only some of use getting it or is there some specific criteria? I own Logos 7 Baptist with the full Logos feature set and currenfly have a Logos Now subscription as well. I looked but no email wet coupons rollovera etc. Are there specific criteria for that?

  • Bill Cook
    Bill Cook Member Posts: 494 ✭✭

    Not a happy camper!

    I believe the initial announcement for LN was the brilliant additional features “now”.

    I was a long time Adobe customer. I owned Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign - all very expensive programs. Then, they went subscription model and I slowly extracted myself from Adobe after being loyal and upgrading along the way to keep my software current. But I couldn’t do it every year. Some years it was not worth it.

    But, now a competitor, Serif, came out with an image editor and drawing app that are much less expensive but have the features or nearly as Photoshop and Illustrator. The market dictated or allowed for such an opening.

    Your new pricing model is leaving us behind. I can’t justify $240/yr to keep up. The market will now allow a competitor to occupy the spot you are vacating. I really like the Logos software. It is the best I think available. But, I feel like I am being punished for not paying enoug somehow. 

    If I went to my boss and said I could not afford to live on what he pays me and said I would now require to be paid 140% more, he would show me the door.

    Perhaps you could offer an increase in price more incrementally. This is frankly outrageons!

  • Dan Francis
    Dan Francis Member Posts: 5,341 ✭✭✭

    Don‘t use Greg’s suggestion of making people pay for the new engines that’s not smart. You will lose pretty much a huge part of your customers. Instead how about just giving the new engine with no features so it runs but people will pay for features

    We already are and I am ok with it.. core engine is free but all the feature sets you are paying for very few if any feature sets are free... I am ok with that.. I am happy to spend $49 every 2 years for the latest version of Accordance. Logos has a free core engine several months after release but it is not free for the first while.... As far as I am concerned the base engine being free has felt for years like smoke and mirrors. Getting rid of the pretence of a free engine would not bother me.

    -dan
  • Beloved Amodeo
    Beloved Amodeo Member Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭

    I called Customer Service to set up my Auto-Renew with Verbum Now and they referred me to the Products Team at this time the Products Team is uncertain as to how to proceed with setting up accounts that do not start today. The representative said he would have to consult with his manager as to who should be handling this. It is his opinion that Customer Service should be handling this. He told me he would have to get back with me on Tues. So, the process is still uncertain at this time.

    Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

    International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

    MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.3 1TB SSD

  • David Mullens
    David Mullens Member Posts: 97 ✭✭

    I was surprised to see the email from FaithLife regarding the change in LN. However, I am a customer. Bob runs the company. As the CEO, he, and others, make decisions they believe are in the best interest of the company and the many employees.

    As a Customer, I will make decisions that fit with my budget, values, needs, etc. At this point, I'm not sure what I will do when my LN subscription runs out. I've used Logos for at least 15 years. I will continue to use it. 

    My church has a faithlifeTV subscription (at $950+ a year). I'm still trying to discern if our congregation uses it enough to justify purchasing it. I use it for the Mobile Ed courses and find it is a cost-effective way to keep up my education. Come next year, the church may not subscribe to FaithLifeTV, especially if I'm able to get the same features from FaithLife Connect.

    I'm giving the FaithLifeTV a bit more time, but my fear is I might be the only one using it.

    My church also subscribes to Proclaim, which we love. Some of us use the social site FaithLife as well.

    I have been confused over the past few years with the name, name changes, and products names of FaithLife. My sense is Faithlife is trying to merge things in a way that will, at some point, make sense.

    Right now, if you go to Faithlife.com you don't go to the company website (which would make sense), instead you go to a social media site.

    If you go logos.com you go to the company website..but wait...no that's the Bible Software's website. From there, I can shop by tradition...such as Catholic...oh wait...that says the Catholic version of Logos is Verbum. If you go to faithlife.com/about you seem to be at the company website.

    I'm sure there are reasons why things are setup the way they are. I, however, am looking forward to the day when it all makes sense. 

    Transitions are difficult. Computing has changed. Subscription models are becoming more popular. Companies must adapt or die. I assume FaithLife is no different.

    I do most of my work on a Chromebook and need the web app, so that may end up being my determining factor. 

    I agree that FaithLifeTV lacks...a lot. As far as I know, if I want all the mobile ed courses, I have to take the FaithLifeTV as well. Not sure I've watched any of the programs on FaithLifeTV other than Mobile Ed.

    In the end, it is up to me as the customer to determine what is best for my situation. While I have enjoyed Logos, LN, Proclaim, etc., in the end FaithLife will determine what they need to charge. I would never think about walking up to a Target employee (or the CEO) and complain that they raised the price of my favorite (fill in the blank). Companies are constantly raising prices for the same, and at times, less services. DishTV, Comcast, etc., etc. 

    I appreciate what FaithLife has done. They've given us a 9 month warning. Given us more than what they promised for LN, and have even offered a coupon.

    I think most other companies would have put out an email that said, "We regret that we will no longer be offering product X. We will honor your subscription, but once it is up, here are your new options."

    I received a similar email from CrashPlan (my online backup), telling me I would have to move to the business plan. They were discontinuing the plan I had been for the past few years. If you want to see how they did things here you go: https://www.crashplan.com/en-us/consumer/nextsteps/

    No coupon. Just saying, upgrade to our (much) more business plan, or move to another service. I moved. At this point, I doubt I will move from FaithLife. 

    I am a bit hesitant to post this since, from what I read, it seems to be a different tone from what I've read (I have not read all 14 pages...just don't have the time). I decided to post anyway, if only to provide a different perspective.

    Peace - David.

  • Beloved Amodeo
    Beloved Amodeo Member Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭

    In the end, it is up to me as the customer to determine what is best for my situation. While I have enjoyed Logos, LN, Proclaim, etc., in the end FaithLife will determine what they need to charge. I would never think about walking up to a Target employee (or the CEO) and complain that they raised the price of my favorite (fill in the blank). Companies are constantly raising prices for the same, and at times, less services. DishTV, Comcast, etc., etc. 

    I appreciate what FaithLife has done. They've given us a 9 month warning. Given us more than what they promised for LN, and have even offered a coupon.

     [Y]

    Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

    International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

    MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.3 1TB SSD

  • scooter
    scooter Member Posts: 781 ✭✭

    I would never think about walking up to a Target employee (or the CEO) and complain that they raised the price of my favorite (fill in the blank). Companies are constantly raising prices for the same, and at times, less services. DishTV, Comcast, etc., etc.

    I feel peaceful reading Ur heartfelt message.

    But, I'm not U, so I take it to the man in a stronger fashion because I think he needs to hear the sitrep in a firmer way.  Otherwise, he may think he can bob [!] + weave some + we are all OK with it.

    Definitely, I would tell the Target CEO if I thought there was a serious ongoing problem.  But, I'd never find him; Bob had the courage to show on the forums [although a day late].

  • Matt Hudson
    Matt Hudson Member Posts: 28 ✭✭

    In the end, it is up to me as the customer to determine what is best for my situation. While I have enjoyed Logos, LN, Proclaim, etc., in the end FaithLife will determine what they need to charge. I would never think about walking up to a Target employee (or the CEO) and complain that they raised the price of my favorite (fill in the blank). Companies are constantly raising prices for the same, and at times, less services. DishTV, Comcast, etc., etc. 

    I appreciate what FaithLife has done. They've given us a 9 month warning. Given us more than what they promised for LN, and have even offered a coupon.

    I think most other companies would have put out an email that said, "We regret that we will no longer be offering product X. We will honor your subscription, but once it is up, here are your new options."

    I think it would be different if a comparable online service (Amazon Prime or Netflix) did this. If an online service cancels their whole service, gives it a new name, then offers the same service back to their users at twice the price, I have a sense many, many customers would have plenty of complaints and suggestions for the company. And rightly so. 

    It certainly is FL's decision to make. But, paying customers have every expectation that they will be treated fairly by that company. Bob can do what he wants. But, he should not be surprised if customers feel treated badly, or even like they've been tricked by this move.